Search found 13 matches

by Silknor
Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:17 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D3: To Tame a Land

Interesting happenings here. Confusing, but interesting.
by Silknor
Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:15 am UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D2: I am Mauve'bib, the Kumkwat Haagendasz!

For obvious reasons:

Vote: Cycoden
by Silknor
Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:02 am UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D2: I am Mauve'bib, the Kumkwat Haagendasz!

Interesting...

I can see why Liet-Kynes is technically Corrino. But I can't imagine what second win condition makes sense for him. He's diametrically opposed to the Corrino's plans for spice production.
by Silknor
Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:46 am UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D2: I am Mauve'bib, the Kumkwat Haagendasz!

Random other fremen wrinkle since you have me thinking about it: Jamis. Paul killed him, so he's not likely to be that sympathetic to Maud'Dib. Kynes as you note, could go either way.
by Silknor
Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:51 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D2: I am Mauve'bib, the Kumkwat Haagendasz!

Frankly, the flavor regarding Rabban makes no sense. In the book, the Fremen breach what could be termed the outer wall with the Atredies atomics. There nothing to indicate the Harkonnens have atomics on Dune, the convention would be hold them far off any of the worlds you hold. It makes sense the Fremen would lynch him for flavor reasons though.

Another interesting thing about the flavor is a Harkonnen courier killed the Harkonnen/Corrino emperor.

A possibility Baron betrayed his nominal ally to put his nephew on the throne, which makes a monolithic scum increasingly unlikely.
by Silknor
Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:20 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D2: I am Mauve'bib, the Kumkwat Haagendasz!

@Flavour knowledgeable people, who is in line to become emperor?


For major plot spoilers:
Spoiler:
Paul Atreides fights Feyd-Rautha at the end of the first book to determine who will become Emperor.

Flavor wise there's really no other candidates. There's no reason in the book to think that any woman could become Emperor, so that rules out Irulan. Shaddam has no sons, which means marrying Irulan is the path to the throne. On the Harkonnen side, the only major character left is the Baron. That would be an unusual choice given that he's angling for Feyd to become Emperor in both the book and game and he's widely despised. On the Atredies side, eligible characters are Paul and Duke Leto. There's nothing obviously disqualifying Duke Leto from being considered that I can think of. He dies early in the book, but that doesn't really matter if he's a character.

In terms of actual order of secession, both Feyd and Paul are fairly low on the list. But I can't remember anyone in the book that was mentioned as being higher than them. Besides other male members of the Harkonnen and Atreides families, who I believe unlikely.
by Silknor
Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:35 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D2: I am Mauve'bib, the Kumkwat Haagendasz!

I think what happened there points to some complicated interactions between alignments.

It's clear at the least that not all Harkonnens and Corrinos have the same win conditions, which makes a monolithic scum faction less likely in my view.
by Silknor
Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:27 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Lataro just isn't being the town Lataro I know. It makes me very suspicious. He just seems a completely different, and not un-scummy, person.

Vote: Lataro
by Silknor
Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:43 am UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

I must say I'm jumping on the "factions vs factions" game, and I think I know how that works. I think it's "Harkonnen vs Atreides", where any non-members of those houses don't care who wins, and "People who like the spice" (CHOAM?) vs fremen, with people who aren't one of those not caring who wins. Then there are probably a few other random "independent" win conditions, as well as people who are a member of one of each of the two sets of factions (e.g. the heads of both houses are probably part of CHOAM). This is (as I've said earlier) at least partly influenced by where my limited flavour knowledge came from (Dune II), but it seems to fit with the flavour spec that other more informed people have been making.


I disagree because I think the relationships are more complex. For example, the Emperor is not a Harkonnen, but clearly favors the Harkonnens over the Atreides. And vice versa for some of the Fremen. To channel the closest thing I have to an inner Zensunni: "Your assumptions are the straitjacket by which your mind is strangled. You cannot know until you know that you do not know."

Lataro is definitely out of character. So that's somewhat suspicious. However, I really only know how he plays in open games, and this game is about as far from open as is possible.
by Silknor
Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:01 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Lurkers aren't helping this.

@Krong: Gooooood....keep your eye on me...may you not see the kindjal behind you...

Seriously though. I'm not really fishing so much as just trying to keep things going. I don't know that there's just one NK either (it's a big game, I wouldn't expect just 1). All I'm trying to say is that if I were the mod, I wouldn't have a majority town faction. Yes, it's easier to set it up that way, but I wouldn't have it like that.
by Silknor
Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:27 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Not A Raptor wrote:Silknor... does that mean that you don't possess a townish-type role, or are you simply commenting on town size and characteristics?


The latter, mostly. I'll admit I drew upon my own win conditions (I'm uniformed, but there's nothing to indicate I'm in a majority). So my role posses one, maybe 2, of the classic town conditions.

The general form of one of my win conditions is you win when all the X are dead.

This is consistent with both town and scum win conditions, obviously. Since I'm uninformed (don't know my teammates) there's a few possibilities:
My side is indeed a majority, making me town.
My side is a minority, and team X is a majority, making me scum.

But there's lots of non-traditional options too (I'm going to call my team Y):
Y and X are both minorities, and there is some team Z majority faction. Z is "town", but I'm not anti-"town" here (debatable if Z's win condition is eliminate X and Y, but still not really because my incentive align with theirs to a large degree and I have no reason to go after Zs).
X, Y, Z, and possibly some more are all minorities. Fitting with dune (quoting roughly here): "The tripod is the most unstable of all power structures" Many possible sets of win conditions, eg. X must get rid of Z, Z of Y, Y of X.
At least one of the teams X, Y, Z,..., have a win condition that isn't the elimination of another team.
Y is a lyncher faction, otherwise unrelated to the struggle between X, Z, and other possible factions.

There's probably more options, but I think I've made my point. There's a whole lot of possible options for setups in which "town" has no meaning. And also some in which "town" is well defined, but anti-town isn't accurate for some factions. I'd lean towards the former based on character count.

Atriedes - Town ish
Fremen - Town ish
BG - Independant. Some might be pro-Town, others Anti-Town
Harkunnon - Scum.
Others - Town or Scum as per MODs whim.
Whether your are Atriedes, Fremen or Townie BG, they are all still Town and don't know each other.
There is probably a Mason group, possibly even 2 given the Factions.
There is 4 (ish) Scum but unlikely to be a Cult (phew).


I think this is inconsistent with the book. Most of the Atreides don't have contact with the Fremen. Also you can split the Fremen and Atreides somewhat. The Fremen's plans of ecological restoration are trouble for the BG, guild, CHOAM, and emperor. But not all of these are anti-Atreides. CHOAM and guild doesn't care as long as the spice flows. The BG has reason to be aligned with some Atreides and probably doesn't care about others. The beauty of Dune is that there isn't an uncomplicated these guys are good, these are bad (which of course is reinforced in later books).

By the way. Scumhunt is always the right move (at least defining scum in a way consistent with our best guesses of the game). I think you miss the point of talking about roles and alignment. It's to get people talking, and see who doesn't. You by definition are scumhunting as soon as mod says Day 1. But the form of that isn't the same as it is on Day 5. Rolespec and scumhunt aren't distinct. They support each other. The line can't be clearly drawn, and the transition is always murky. But go ahead, scum hunt. But if you haven't seen something suspicious, it's more useful to at least keep talking than simply saying scumhunt go! (And to your credit, you're continuing to talk about roles/faction).
by Silknor
Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:44 am UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

In general I think we shouldn't assume town vs 1-2 mafia teams with some indeps. It's certainly possible, but it also really oversimplifies the plot dynamics. It's just not the case that one group is the enemy of every other group, at least not in an uncomplicated way. It's possible some of that interconnectedness will come from the second win condition, but I think it's more likely that a "town" per se doesn't exist. True to the book I think would require there to not be a majority faction at all.
by Silknor
Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:41 am UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!
Replies: 682
Views: 90953

Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Here's my thoughts on rolespec. I'm going to assume for this post a very strict following of the book, simply because that's in my view the best starting point, better than saying good is town and bad is mafia.

Major plot spoilers probably apply, both in Dune and subsequent books.

Both Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam and Lady Margot Fenring seem plenty pro-Paul Atreides in the book.


I disagree on Mohiam. She only wants to use Paul to achieve BG (Bene Gesserit) goals, not help him in any meaningful way. I can't imagine she'd approve of Paul becoming the KH (Kwisatz Haderach) in the desert with the Fremen. Fenring while certainly pro-Jessica, doesn't have any connection to Paul. What reason does she have to help Paul reject BG ways? She's a BG, and the only BG that betrays them in the book is Jessica, I think she'd want the same total control of the KH that Mohiam does. BG are also opposed to Alia, the Abomination, who seems likely to be closer to Paul than anyone outside his family.

The Harkonnens are Nazi like (Herbert himself even said that). The Corinos are only concerned with power. And the Atreides are generally good, but they fall into several unavoidable political traps and are occasionally forced into an ends justify the means scenario.

The Bene Gesserit (if in game) will probably be most concerned with keeping certain players alive.
The Guild would be concerned with the spice and I am not sure how that translates into the game.
Fremen are concerned with Arrakis and only arrakis but I see them siding with the Atreides.


Fremen have reason to side with Paul because of his idea of ecological transformation, and nominally Jessica, but little reason to side with other Atreides.
Guild are opposed to Fremen's ecological transformation, it would restrict the flow of spice. Also opposed to Paul, he has too much leverage over them due to his control of spice. Keep in mind guild illegally aid Corrino and Harkonnen by bringing troops to Dune.

BG wants control of KH and spice. What else matters to them? They're not a benevolent group of doctors. I guess they might want Irulan to ascend to the throne, but not as a figurehead to Paul, she was groomed for it after all.

I don't see anything that points to clear existence of a cult: BG and Fremen would be the two possibilities, but neither does any forced recruitment in the book. BG have voice yes, but it's short-term (eg. immediate, not long-term mind control) and they don't use it to convert people. What about Paul? Paul is deeply uncomfortable with the figure of godhood imprinted upon him. He doesn't seem like a cult leader to me.

Rolelist (working without reviewing other peoples, second alignment in parentheses):
Atreides:
Paul (Fremen, Blue within Blue eyes [BBE], Mentat, Swordmaster)
Jessica (Fremen, BBE, Bene Gesserit [BG])
Duke Leto (CHOAM)
Gurney Halleck (Swordmaster, Smuggler)
Thufir Hawat (Mentat)
Duncan Idaho (Swordmaster, Fremen)
Alia (BBE, Fremen)
Baby Leto (Fremen, BBE)
Yeuh (Harkonnen)
BG:
Irulan (Corrino, BBE-maybe)
Mohain (Corrino [as Emperor's Truthsayer], BBE)
The Desert Reverend Mother (can't remember her name, gives Water of Life to Jessica/Alia, BBE, Fremen)
Fenring (BBE, Corrino-wife of Count Fenring)
Jessica (Fremen, BBE, Atreides)

Harkonnen:
Baron (CHOAM)
Abulard
Feyd-Rautha
Peter de Vries (Mentat)
Beast Rabban (CHOAM)
Yeuh (Atreides)

Corrino:
Shaddam (CHOAM)
Count Fenring
Irulan (BG, BBE-maybe)
Sardaukar (Swordmaster)

Guild:
Guildsmen I guess? (BBE)

CHOAM:
Shaddam (Corrino)
Duke Leto (Atreides)
Baron (Hark)
Beast Rabban (Hark)

Fremen (all BBE):
See Atredies+
Stilgar
Chani (Atreides-maybe)
Liet Kynes
Harah (Atreides-maybe)
Jamis (Swordmaster-maybe)

There's probably more but I think that should be most of the major characters.

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