Search found 135 matches

by Jonolith
Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:33 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

I’ve been away for far too many days but the conversation has marched steadily along without me. I will attempt to rejoin. Hopefully I’ll say something of value. As a note, there’s a lot of people that have said a lot of things, so I actually can’t simply quote someone and then respond. I’m just goi...
by Jonolith
Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:01 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Does God Exist?
Replies: 1390
Views: 123795

Re: Does God Exist?

God is not someone. "He" is not a being that we can ever understand or acknowledge as existing in any kind of way that we can comprehend. "He" exists outside of our understanding. "He" is Unknowable. You're supposing quite a bit here. Who's to say your beliefs about go...
by Jonolith
Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:56 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

It's cool that you have your own definition and all, but I don't see how your particular variant is useful. I'm also failing to see how including atheists as 'religious' is anything more than confusing. For example, some sects of Buddhism engage in a practice very similar to atheism, but are simult...
by Jonolith
Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:31 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Does God Exist?
Replies: 1390
Views: 123795

Re: Does God Exist?

God is someone who can perform miracle. God is not someone. "He" is not a being that we can ever understand or acknowledge as existing in any kind of way that we can comprehend. "He" exists outside of our understanding. "He" is Unknowable. If you ask "Does God Exi...
by Jonolith
Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:40 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

No, it isn't. Not even by your definition of religion. My definition of Religion is “A study of the Unknowable”. Atheists make assertions about the Unknowable. Atheism is a Religious pursuit. An atheist is someone who does not believe in God. Not believing in something--not doing something--doesn't...
by Jonolith
Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:28 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

religions (all of them) started out of a desire to explain things that otherwise didn't make sense. someone saw a flash in the sky and couldn't explain it, so they came up with an explanation (god did it) that calmed everyone down. the VAST majority of these things HAVE been explained by science. s...
by Jonolith
Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:22 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

Apologies for the waylay. Life is life. And BIG apologies for length. Whew. You have given two attributes: (1) It is exploring the unknowable, and (2) It is not exploring the knowable. #1 puts much of philosophy as religion. #2 makes fundamentalist claims about the creation of the earth outside reli...
by Jonolith
Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:22 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

Now, it can be argued that there was a Scientific choice to be made. Simply calculate the numbers and that is your answer. I would argue that viewing the world in that way would be unrealistic, and diminish the value that one man has for another. The choice Winston Churchill had to make was certain...
by Jonolith
Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:45 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

Not really, you don't need the unknowable to have a deeper comprehension. Science can most definitely exist without religion (and I'd assume the alternate as well, however odd that would be), unless you're equating religion to all of philosophy (which still isn't a necessity, though I'd imagine sci...
by Jonolith
Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:01 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

Many religions have historically been built around, or incorporated, miracles. Events which manifested in this material plane and should be testable (or there'd be no way to distinguish it from charlatanry), and indeed, used to be claimed by believers to be testable and real. Often still are. Would...
by Jonolith
Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:37 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

Except when religion makes claims about the knowable. I would make the argument that when a Religion does this, it ceases to be a Religion, or at least a Religious conversation. Religion is interested in the Study of the Unknowable, and once someone makes a claim that the Unknowable is Knowable, th...
by Jonolith
Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:52 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

It strikes me, the more that I’m reading people post on this forum, that people simply have extremely different ideas of what Religion is when they are talking on the subject. I think it behoves us to define the term “Religion” and proceed from that definition, because, as it is, we’re all basically...
by Jonolith
Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:05 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

For the purpose of being exclusive/inclusive to other people, then I agree with your sentiment that the labels shouldn't be such a big deal. If people don't want to believe in the magic side of Christianity, but still think Jesus is a cool dude who laid out a great way to live life, then awesome! A...
by Jonolith
Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:21 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

The voting trends in America and societal changes and influence suggest otherwise. We seem to be getting more "fundamentally Christian" not less. I’m very curious to see where you’re getting this information as the current sitting president is most definitely not backed by any Fundamental...
by Jonolith
Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:57 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

so, while you seem to have an "agreeable" view of the scripture and writings in the bible. the majority simply do not. I take this as a compliment. all of the people (no matter who they align with) that think these people are stupid and dangerous need to stand up and get a bullhorn becaus...
by Jonolith
Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:53 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

Good attempt at apologetics. I’m not what sure what you’re saying here. I’m simply creating a case in which it is possible to see how the verse may apply in a rational way, and not in a malicious way, as it is often interpreted. Its all sex, baby. That is technically true, insofar as they are all a...
by Jonolith
Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:46 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

with regards to your re-entry into the fray, i have mentioned time and time again that i'm not arguing against moderates but extremes. it would take a lot of extra typing to single groups out each time i walk up to the keyboard. This is a fair statement. I simply urge extreme caution as it is easy ...
by Jonolith
Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:23 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion: The Deuce
Replies: 5301
Views: 592925

Re: Religion: The Deuce

Hey everyone, I used to post on here years ago before life occurred, and I figured I'd jump back in. Glad to see that Religious conversation still happens, and I hope to join in and have some thoughtful discussion. The last time I was here I had alot of my own views challenged, and hopefully challen...
by Jonolith
Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:18 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

And why don't you believe in all of the other gods that have been prayed to throughout history? Many of them promise an afterlife, too. Here's an interesting challenge. Let's start by putting my finger on what it is I do believe and move from there. Christianity is a belief that Jesus showed up and...
by Jonolith
Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:36 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion
Replies: 2000
Views: 185622

Re: Religion

-When you change the words, the verses are not the same. -When you take the verses out of context,m the meanings are not the same. -The Hebrew parts in Hebrew might be the same, but since Christians usually use other languages, and different translations, than Jews, a side-by side translation revea...
by Jonolith
Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:09 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

So your belief is justified by self-interest? Isn't everything? Most every human action is 'justified by self-interest.' It's the rare exception that isn't and even then there's always some benefit to the person that did it. Before you jump in with extreme examples like people dying to save someone...
by Jonolith
Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:12 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

The reason I do not believe in your god is the same as the reason you do not believe in the spacefaring teakettle. So it's safe to say that you don't believe in God because you have no hope for the afterlife? I mean, I don't believe in a teapot floating in space because I have no reason to. I don't...
by Jonolith
Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:02 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

Hey guys, don't get your knickers in a twist. It's true that Creationism is not a science and shouldn't be treated as such, but on the same note who says that Evolution is therefore the truth? Creationism and Evolution pose two opposing theories... I'd just like to interject on this point. Creation...
by Jonolith
Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:58 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

Even intelligent people don't like to face the observable facts, sometimes. Show me one observable fact that I have argued with. Ever. You're not going to find one because observable facts don't contradict a belief in God. I've read dozens of theologies from a mass of different cultures, Have you r...
by Jonolith
Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:42 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion
Replies: 2000
Views: 185622

Re: Religion

I said, as you quoted, that the Christian translations have been, and continue to be, different enough to allow for the Idea of Jesus (sorf of) fitting in to the "old testament", while no Jewish translation ever has. You keep saying this, but the arguement i'm going to fire back is that t...
by Jonolith
Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:47 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

Quixotess wrote:I think you misunderstand the "God is not necessary" argument. It's Occam's Razor.


Ah yes... Occam's Razor. Never really understood why people so willingly stand by this when it's mired in opinion and subjectivity. "What's Most Likely" is an opinion, not a fact.
by Jonolith
Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:42 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The Sayings of Jesus
Replies: 4
Views: 1384

Re: The Sayings of Jesus

The "Turn The Other Cheeck" idea has got to be one of the hardest things that people are faced with. Most people will jump onto the idea of vengance or justice, and want to hurt the people who have hurt them, or will flee. It's a common human reaction, the idea of "Fight or Flight.&qu...
by Jonolith
Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:32 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

I have to jump back into this conversation and comment on something here. I find it a bit astounding how often the scientific side of things will use phrases like "It isn't needed" or "It's not neccessary" when referring to God. Now, I understand that God doesn't fit into the rea...
by Jonolith
Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:47 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

But it's wholly disingenuous to say god did it. You replaced one gaping hole in the rigor and reason behind the answer with another. I don't really see how. I suppose this is true if you assume God is empty, or if you assume he doesn't exist, or some other value you're attributing him with. Ultimat...
by Jonolith
Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:39 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

I object to your providing the "God did it" response to any question in principle because it isn't an answer . If you want to accept the rigor of the scientific method, let scientists and theorists do their thing without providing answers to people who will accept your response as if it i...
by Jonolith
Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:28 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

Science doesn't choose to acknowledge other things, I do. I do have certain faiths and beliefs, but they don't involve anything that is in the domain of testable conclusions and the like. For example, killing is wrong. Neither your holy book, your god, or science tells me that. Nor is "killing...
by Jonolith
Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:16 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

I'm not even saying it's possible that the origin of the universe can be proven. I'm saying that if it can be proven, my way is the only philosophically and mathematically rigorous method of doing so. This is true, and I'm not arguing this. Humanity has created the best proof finding machine it can...
by Jonolith
Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:58 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

No, it doesn't require faith. Either the answer is possible to find, or it isn't. If it's not possible to know the answer, then that sucks , but that doesn't require faith. The method still works. I think you're thinking that a scientific attitude is like religion. It's kinda-sorta, for example, th...
by Jonolith
Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:43 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

But that doesn't mean you should immediately discount the scientific method or weigh non-theories equally with them in terms of validity. That's not it at all. i don't think you bothered to read points one and four of mine there. I'm a fan of the scientific method. I really am. I just understand it...
by Jonolith
Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:08 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

Ok, onto the talk! 1. Alot of you think I'm opposing you. I'm not. I can understand why you'd be argumentative against someone who says "God did it dorp dorp." That's really not what I'm saying, nor am I ever going to be blinded by that belief to something directly in front of me. I've bee...
by Jonolith
Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:45 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

Jonolith, don't be so presumptuous. You're not stirring the pot, I left . I went to a party. You didn't strike a chord with me or make me see the error my ways, I merely, after my last post, got up and walked away from my computer. It doesn't mean you win by default. Anyhow, the replies above have ...
by Jonolith
Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:42 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

Aside from the criticisms adequately covered by everyone else... this kind of presupposes that God is a bit of a dick. "Hey, you know what'd be hilarious? Leaving misleading and contradictory evidence all over the place. And if people buy my omnipotence-powered lies, instead of believing a ran...
by Jonolith
Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:05 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

Hrm... and it seems that I've stirred the pot. Might as well continue doing that then. I challenge everyone on this board to put forth their totally testable theory for the creation of the Universe. You're all very interested in testable theory, as am I, so I put the challenge forth. What is the tes...
by Jonolith
Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:01 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Creationism
Replies: 914
Views: 91120

Re: Creationism

...should be appeased and should not be questioned... This is where you make a leap with what I'm saying. At no point do I ever say "God did it so don't bother." Go. Break it. Do whatever it is you need to do. I'm in favor of everything you're going to do to advance humanity. Build the sp...
by Jonolith
Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:54 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Religion
Replies: 2000
Views: 185622

Re: Religion

I believe they are called Autobiographies And I could STILL make an arguement for those being second hand. I mean, the events that, let's say, Phil Colins puts into his book you're essentially taking on faith actually happened. You have no reason to mistrust him, but you're basically taking him at ...

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