Search found 344 matches

by FireZs
Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:31 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1178: "Pickup Artists"
Replies: 142
Views: 32330

Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Oh, sure, patriarchal culture will punish rape. But only if it's, you know, legitimate rape. If there's even the tiniest suspicion that the victim is "impure", or if she knew her rapist at all, well, she's not really a victim. And hey, boys will be boys, let's not ruin this promising youn...
by FireZs
Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:20 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1178: "Pickup Artists"
Replies: 142
Views: 32330

Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Why are PUA apologists never the women who have been picked up? How about the reverse? I'm curious if there're any "PUA surviviors" around who can share their stories of having sex with a man they thought was attractive, only to learn later about PUAs and realize that the man tricked them...
by FireZs
Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:04 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1178: "Pickup Artists"
Replies: 142
Views: 32330

Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

However, there've been many accusations of PUAs "manipulating/lying to" women to get them to have sex with them, with the implication that without such tactics, the women would not have had sex with them, and are therefore victimized in some way. But isn't that exactly how the PUA's adver...
by FireZs
Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:55 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1178: "Pickup Artists"
Replies: 142
Views: 32330

Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

I don't think anyone is saying "Pickup artists have extraordinary power and are mind controlling women," though. They're saying that the problem with PUA culture is the way it encourages men to think about women. Yes, the way that PUA culture encourages men to think about women is unhealt...
by FireZs
Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:36 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1178: "Pickup Artists"
Replies: 142
Views: 32330

Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Why are PUA apologists never the women who have been picked up? How about the reverse? I'm curious if there're any "PUA surviviors" around who can share their stories of having sex with a man they thought was attractive, only to learn later about PUAs and realize that the man tricked them...
by FireZs
Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:37 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1178: "Pickup Artists"
Replies: 142
Views: 32330

Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Why are PUA apologists never the women who have been picked up? How about the reverse? I'm curious if there're any "PUA surviviors" around who can share their stories of having sex with a man they thought was attractive, only to learn later about PUAs and realize that the man tricked them...
by FireZs
Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:50 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Oh, I feel the hate - even got to be on the receiving end of it just for being a bystander. But it's par for course in internet discussion, and I have enough experience with that to brush it off as knee-jerk reaction to some of the creepy stuff said here (and boy, have there been some truly creepy ...
by FireZs
Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:42 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

They may very well be wrong, but they are people too. No they're not. Men who aren't getting sex but feel they deserve to are despicable and sub-human. They should lead miserable lives and die alone and unloved. It's an equal disservice to the discussion to put up some ridiculous, hyperbolic claim ...
by FireZs
Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:28 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

tanthalas wrote:They may very well be wrong, but they are people too.


No they're not. Men who aren't getting sex but feel they deserve to are despicable and sub-human. They should lead miserable lives and die alone and unloved.
by FireZs
Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:24 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Wait, so what fundamental argument made by PUA apologists or anti-PUA people in this thread isn't a moral argument, besides the brief analogy arguments? PUA apologists say PUA is moral, and anti-PUA people say it's not. Saying that anti-PUA people only have "moral outrage" is just an attem...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:14 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

But maybe you can answer the question I posed earlier then. If a woman uses the extreme makeup methods I linked earlier and goes on a first date, should she not show her date a picture of what she looks like without it? Do you show your dates pictures of what you would look like if you hadn't shave...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:08 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

First, you'd have to define "grossly misrepresenting" who you are by using make-up...the altering of physical characteristics, especially in a widely known way that everyone accepts is done on a regular basis, seems much less disingenuous to me than significantly altering your behavior fo...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:00 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

As I said before, I don't think normal makeup is equivalent to PUA. My original question was: imagine if there was makeup that would make it so that a girl you normally would not be interested would look so different that you would be interested. Wouldn't it bother you when you find out what she re...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:38 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

I suppose extravagant make-up would be a problem if you were only interested in women based on physical characteristics. Kind of a moot point in regards to interpersonal relationships...especially if a guy is using PUA techniques to only get one-night stands rather than a LTR. If he's only looking ...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:22 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

A few people in this thread has already stated their position regarding makeup. It's just a natrual progression to social interaction. Girls dress better, wear makeup, push-up bras; guys learing how to interact better with girls. People who don't accused of people who do as 'cheating' the system an...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:05 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

But maybe you can answer the question I posed earlier then. If a woman uses the extreme makeup methods I linked earlier and goes on a first date, should she not show her date a picture of what she looks like without it? Do you show your dates pictures of what you would look like if you hadn't shave...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:51 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

But maybe you can answer the question I posed earlier then. If a woman uses the extreme makeup methods I linked earlier and goes on a first date, should she not show her date a picture of what she looks like without it? Do you show your dates pictures of what you would look like if you hadn't shave...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:23 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

You may not date ryan gosling lookalikes, but you also don't date PUAs. For the women who do, is it not important to inform them of what's going on? No. People can choose to date PUAs. People can also choose to blow all their money on lottery tickets. People can choose to date PUAs if they're infor...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:12 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

May I just say that deceiving is not the same as being deceived. PUA is a pretty specific case that doesn't really come up often enough to make a statistical difference. I know it seems like PUA is everywhere, but the world is not xkcd, and it's not like there's an epidemic of guys who go for this ...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:54 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Wearing makeup isn't a plan, or a technique, or even an interaction; it's something you do for a lot of different reasons. It's part of the social game, and it involves a lot of varying pressures--and almost none of these pressures involve coercing people into decisions they might later come to reg...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:31 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

But if you're trying to get sex, that doesn't matter. There is some manipulation involved. Whereas if you're wearing makeup, manipulation may not be involved at all. The actions being compared are "planning to have sex with a stranger" and "wearing makeup". Not "being attra...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:17 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Heh, ok. Let's pretend that I misunderstood you. Let you save some face. Grow up. Just make your argument. "Grow up" is pretty fresh coming from someone who has to resort to "you didn't read my post!" If I did misread something just say what it is. I've always given people that ...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:03 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

We might be confusing our terminology here. When I said PUA tactics always deceive, I meant PUA tactics are always employed to deceive someone, while makeup might not be used to deceive someone. Perhaps there are some PUA tactics that don't intend to deceive, but I don't know about that. If you wer...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:36 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Uh, if you behave a certain way to get a girl to sleep with you because that's all you cared about, then a separate way after you've slept with her because you got what you want already, that's not deceptive? Seriously, are you actually against PUA? Cause you're borderline making the "self-imp...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:42 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Ok, well you're more supportive of PUA than I am then. I think if you're displaying a personality you don't actually have, that's deceptive, and if you stop displaying that personality later on (since it's not really your personality), then you were lying, misrepresenting your personality before. T...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:20 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

So if someone is social, fun, and has a certain personality that attracts women, but it's not really them, they're just using tactics they learned off a PUA book, they actually are social/fun/attractive? If they can't keep it up, it doesn't make them liars about their personality back when they wer...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:49 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

I'm saying using extreme makeup like the ones I linked to with the intent of getting an advantage in dating is like PUA. Oh. Okay. So yeah, you're wrong about this, for the reasons I and others already explained. In the one very specific example you cited with tons of mitigating circumstances, you ...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:22 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Ugh. Look. I'm sure you're being sarcastic here, but in case you aren't, no, Shivahn didn't defend those who use makeup to deceive. Like, I can't believe you can't see the difference. Makeup is non-selective. You apply it to yourself. You can't choose to apply makeup to some people and not others, ...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:49 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Read your original post and you might understand why. You're describing a possible scenario that could happen as a PUA equivalent; we're arguing that it wouldn't be. You defended your point by falling back on a situation that is similar, but has a buttload of context unique to its culture which mak...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:24 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

That's not how those things work. The meeting is arranged, and if they like each other they'll get to meet again for a number of times, and then the two people decide if they want to marry on their own. In this context, it's perfectly possible that the two people won't see each other without makeup...
by FireZs
Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:04 am UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

I kind of want to reiterate what has also been mentioned a couple of times, which is that makeup pretty often has nothing to do with other people. Myself, and all the (other ? ) women I know wear makeup mostly at home, even when no one's going to see it, because sometimes it's nice to look in the m...
by FireZs
Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:45 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Women ARE getting together in seminars to discuss ways to apply makeup like the links I provided. A reasonable scenario where someone is emotionally harmed by a partner wearing lots of makeup is easy: girl gets guy to marry her, and then he finds out she doesn't look like that at all. And yes, peop...
by FireZs
Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:37 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

This is eerie to me, but what your saying sounds to me very much like what the PUA apologists are saying, but in reverse: "everyone knows how this game works," "if after using PUA methods I actually have that personality all the time, what's the difference?" Deception and misrep...
by FireZs
Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:44 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

If you tell someone you're into PUA stuff, that's probably relationship-ending. If you use this level of makeup, and you show who you're dating what you look like without it, that's probably also relationship ending. Both relationships would have been built on assumptions that turned out to be lies...
by FireZs
Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:20 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

That's not PUA, though. That's just asking for sex, which I haven't seen anyone say is unreasonable. I saw plenty of people saying effectively "if all you care about is casual sex and all you do is try to get it, you're a terrible person." imagine if there existed makeup that can make a w...
by FireZs
Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:14 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

It's usually very clear when someone's wearing make-up (in all the examples you showed, my immediate reaction was 'wow, that person is wearing a lot of make-up'). But let's pretend it isn't--where's the deception? Is it deceptive for me to drive around in an expensive car that I don't actually own?...
by FireZs
Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:38 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

Makeup in general isn't, which I think is what people who explicitly mentioned it meant. I think you'd agree that some of the examples in the links I posted are not comparable to the kind of makeup that most women use (just as PUA tactics are not comparable to the kind of social skills that most pe...
by FireZs
Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:17 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

I don't think that makeup is dishonest or misrepresentative. And people have explicitly denied, a lot, that makeup has any of the same problems that dishonest pickup tactics have. So presenting makeup as an analogy by saying that it's objectionable for the same reasons is extremely misleading. Make...
by FireZs
Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:58 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

So, maybe this will help explain to the PUA apologists the objections, in terms they can understand better: Great. Now how can we frame the objections so that you'll quit misrepresenting them? So you think that PUAs are honest and not misrepresenting themselves? I frame dishonesty and misrepresenta...
by FireZs
Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:26 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 1027: "Pickup Artist"
Replies: 2030
Views: 275813

Re: 1027: "Pickup Artist"

So, maybe this will help explain to the PUA apologists the objections, in terms they can understand better: imagine if there existed makeup that can make a woman look nothing like what she normally looks like (like, would make a 5 into a 9), and there was a community dedicated to teaching less physi...

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