xkcd

Aha, no interfernce from the mods.., only two roles wanting to keep me alive till the end! I feel violated.

Game Over VZ.

Vote: VectorZero

I doctored you for most of the game <.<!

VectorZero wrote:Ok, so, we've got Mav confirmed as Dignam by flavor and lack of counterclaim. No scum kill last night; flavor suggests Chandani was targeting Dignam but Dignam got in first... Not sure whether that's how the game plays. More likely to be doctored. Hmm.

Possibilities (from my POV) are FAOT is scum and withheld the kill to make it look like he's the doctor, or cjdrum's lied all along. That seems unlikely, given he alluded to it in his first post. I'm strongly leaning FAOT.

Any cop results, Mav?

Also, we're now probably 1 in 4. Unless Mav's got another NK, we should NL.

FoS: VectorZero

You should think before you post. There's only one person left who could be scum, you. The only other possibility is Cj had some inside knowledge of the game, which I don't quite believe. I protected you last night Mav. I'm not going to place a vote until Mav replies with her cop, incase cj has been playing us, but it seems unlikely.

Or do you think we should lynch chan mav? It doesnt make much difference as far as I'm concerned. I've got generally townie vibes from VZ all game, if it was either of the others claiming trooper bornw I'd be concerned.

Sorry guys, I had a really really heavy night last night, hence the last minute claim.

I'm madolyn.

I think Chan and Dotproduct are our scum, if you have a vig kill mav you know where to direct it. If not, we know where to point our lynch tomorrow.

Vote: dotproduct

Thats the problem if they are town, then scum could slip through with a false-claim. If they post then I'm happy with a mass-claim, so Vote: Y. If we're going to lynch them for not posting anyway, may as well do it without exposing our roles and keeping any power roles hidden.

I was considering this last night ^, would exposing digman/madolyn be worth it? Given Cj is practically confirmed, then we would have 3/6 confirmed which would make it difficult for sullivan and costello to claim. At the very least we'd narrow it down to 3, which is a 2/3 chance of lynching scum/sk and if the claim works well maybe guaranteed. I think that's worth the risk.

Given the turbo nature of the game though if everyone doesn't get back to claim before deadline, could really mess us up.

It would seem a reasonable follow on, Mav, although it wouldn't surprise me if weeks jumped on a townie to look less suspcious. Cj, we should be taking a flavour perspective, not a mafia perspective on who is remaining. We have sullivan, costello, madolyn, digman trooper brown? (possibly, but not definitely, with the different colours brown may have been ommited completely). We hay have possibly two scum remaining given we have sullivan and costello left, or sullivan could be an anti-town.

Chan is looking the most suspicous though, especially with yesterdays half-defense of weeks as the ship was sinking, and no vote. Chan did have quite an early vote on m_p day 1 though. My townie list looks something like this:

Cjdrum - Vanilla
Vectorzero
Mav
dotproduct
Chan.

I think I would be quite happy for a vote on chan or dotproduct at the moment.

Weeks wrote:1) He initiated the whole argument that because we didn't vote for m_p and argued against him, we were scummy. He says he has evidence because GoP did this and he turned out scum. Yet weiyaoli did this too, and he turned out town! This is why I said, earlier, that he was exaggerating his point.
2) He fucking backed off when he weiyaoli was found town, but didn't hesitate to use the same flawed argument again to attack me.
3) He says I made the whole thing into a big argument, which is blatant lies (first three posters to disagree and argue with FOAT: not me).

It doesn't take a genius to work out that there must be town players who didn't vote for m_p. All I said was that not-voting should be a considered factor on who we decide to vote. Wei did seem to agree that not voting for m_p so that someone else could be lynched was scummy, the same argument that you're mainly voting me for. I haven't backed off from anything. Order is irrelevant, you're the one who made it into such a big deal and seem to think that I'm suggesting everyone who didn't vote must be scum. This is clearly impossible, and twisting the argument I made into something else. If you disagreed with me so much and thought genuinely that I was scum, why did you follow my vote?

Weeks wrote:4) He himself just said at the beginning of the day that he was shocked about Trooper White. Don't you get it? Once you mentioned that you were X Z instead of X Y, it became exceedingly easy for scum to false claim Trooper [color], vanilla town. It already was suspicious that wei did it. This is also why I reconsidered you not being Trooper [color]. (I have not watched the movie. I don't know how likely it is for another char to be slightly altered this way, but I still considered it, from mere ignorance.) FOAT, again, doesn't hesitate to use this against me.

Except clearly Cj mentioned parallels before Trooper White was shown to be a role. This argument is meaningless given that fact.

Weeks wrote:5) Can you see a trend here? This is what, in part, motivated my earlier metaphor. Of course, me not being FOAT, I can consider the possibility of him not being scum. But this is my best bet. VZ comes close, too.

Anything else? No? All right.

I was actually considering the possibility that you might not be scum, until you placed a vote without reading or thinking on Cj hoping for a lynch on lurkiness. I would consider that this was a one-off mistake if you weren't acting so scummy upto now.

Weeks wrote:Um, hello? Wei wasn't scum. He also had little pings according to you; you even voted for him. I'm not sure you're analyzing the data correctly.

I made my reasons for my vote on Wei clear, he pushed through a FoS on Cj early day 2, as if he was trying to start a bandwagon. He even admitted his reasoning was farfetched and wrong, which just shows he was playing town rather badly.

Of course, to you, everyone must have noticed. Yes, I get that you won't change your mind.

The main difference between you and me is that, while you charge headlong into the street without looking to the sides because the lights are red, I don't.

I'm willing to put my votes on who I find scummy, rather than withold them, which is the only difference.

Ninjaed by mav -

That's ok, I know the flaws with my argument. Even if I am right it still ends up half town half scum not voting (clearly shown by the lynch on Wei), but I've already stated the reasons why I think scum would have chosen not to vote.

Mavketl wrote:

Weeks wrote:vote: cjdrum

Oh come on, how frickin obvious is it that he's Trooper [colour], vanilla town...

He also made it obvious before trooper [colour] was revealed as a role, started the lynch on m_p and commented that his role was 'boring'. Cj is probably the most confirmed townie at the moment in my books.

@Weeks: You claim that I was being stubborn with my reasoning? Gopher was scum and didn't vote for m_p day 1, it's not concrete proof but at least evidence I was looking in the right direction.

Vote: Weeks

I'm not buying that you're town anymore. I've pointed out what was wrong D1 with your lack of voting and plenty of attacking. Yesterday you turned it into a big argument, just acted as a distraction from D1. Today you'ved voted cj for lurking, yet it's pretty clear what his role is.

Ninja-ed: 1) Everyone must have noticed, 2) you're still throwing suspicion at it "I'm not sure how many we should assume.." 3) even with you're vote removed you still have the actions from before.

Seeing as gopher was scum I felt like a re-read of his posts could be useful so (round-up):

Gopher (Day 1): Suspects m_p and misterk. Follows through with no vote and just 'lurks'.

Gopher (Day 2): Copies Weeks. Throws suspicion/wine at VZ, Mav & Weeks. Questions Wei. Suggests looking at people who didn't vote for m_p is bad.

There's not a whole lot to get from the very few posts. It looks like he was trying to find an early D2 target in VZ, Mav or Weeks. Could be an attempt to turn all three of them against each other. His argument into not looking at day 1 non-lynchers is obviously in his best interest given that he's scum, it may also be in scum's interest as a whole (although i have no intention of reviving this argument for round 2).

Well, although Wei turned out to be town at least a SK and Mafia died. I wonder if there are one or two more scum left? Hopefully one (given that we've got two). I'm a little shocked a trooper white existed. Will have to do a re-read of the thread in abit to see if anything suspicous jumps out (with regards to misterk and GoP, although GoP was heavily lurking like some other players in this game).

@ Weeks & PE, I understand you're arguments (I always have) but I just disagree with them. I'm starting to feel we should just agree to disagree.

A few points I'll pick up on:

1) Bussing - Of course this is possible but given that scum will not have had time to communicate, their voting will be much less organised.

2) My suspicions of you:

Top of my list at the moment is Weeks. Looking over the posts Weeks re-iterated "Read the damn thread/posts before you post" so many times to m_p it seemed like Weeks was getting really annoyed, and partially trying to help m_p get out of his hole by shouting advice down to him. One possible reason for this source of irritation would be that Weeks is scum with m_p. Weeks also did lots and lots of attacking on m_p but didn't follow through with a vote, an attempt in my books to look like town by joining their side but not placing a vote down incase m_p could get out of the situation somehow.

FoS: Weeks

Felt that was taken out of context slightly by just using the summary I posted. My suspicions were from looking at you're posts yesterday and it looks to me as if you wanted m_p to get out of the situation (by semi-shouting advice at him) but at the same time you were attacking him and not voting. I think it's a valid point and I could completely understand if you were frustrated if I just said "You didn't vote yesterday, but posted lots of other content.. FoS, but I didn't".

Also, people need to get voting. Right now we're going to lynch someone on a majoirty of two, which is ridiculous. How can that be pro-town at all? People make better decisions as groups so we need to decide on a lynch target together. Can we please leave this argument now and actually get back to discussing who should be lynched and start getting some votes down?

Wooy` wrote: You know what would probably happen to people if they had voted? They'd be under suspicion for being on the late, easy votes and would be considered scummy for trying to seem like they were voting on m_p.

I suggest that you take Weeks advice from yesterday. You'd notice that I addressed this issue in my last post, if you read it.

Wooy` wrote:People who didn't vote on m_p: BigNose, Wooy`, Ibarra, cjdrum, Lataro.
Wooy`, BigNose, and Lataro were all independents. I was a lyncher, Lataro was a survivor, and BigNose was arguably on the scum side of independent, requiring 3 townies to die before he won. But no, they weren't scum.
Cj and Ibarra were scum.

So what you're saying is that all the people who didn't vote for scum D1 were non-town, with the majority anti-town (BN, Cj, Ibarra). Surely that just proves my point if anything? Also, both of the remaining scum are in that game were in that list and didn't vote scum D1, further proving my point.

To be honest I'm getting fed up of this bullshit argument because people clearly people aren't reading what I'm saying, so I'll state it one more time. We should be looking with suspicion at everyone but not voting yesterday should be factored in alongside content posted, lurkiness etc., for considering how scummy a player is acting.

Weeks wrote:I'm really starting to wonder if FOAT and weiyaoli have something to gain from all this. I don't think you can be so stubborn without a reason.

It's not stubborness, it's common sense. I've already explained why (and I won't be repeating myself) and as I've already said, it's not the only thing that should be taken into consideration (but a factor nethertheless).

As I've already said to PE (rather sarcastically, but i'll rephrase it seriously now), are you actually suggesting we ignore Day 1 votes/non-votes?

Generally, the best way to hunt scum is look at who voted for who, American Pie was an excellent example of this where scum lynch D1 & people who didn't vote for the lynchee at the time turned out to be scum, and this becomes even more efficent when a scum buddy is lynched.

You can argue that it doesn't matter because there isn't a soft-lynch but I'm not buying it. If anything it makes it even more important to vote, because the soft-lynch is effectively decided by players (which include scum) rather than a mod. Given this fact, if another target had appeared day 1 then scum could have easily bandwagoned (& this probably would have happened had mister k replied, IMO). Therefore the argument that anyone hammering scum would look scummy is absurd, because it would stop any potential lynch on another target which would have been so much beneficial for scum. Once again, this is especially true given that the soft-lynch is so fickle.

Vote: Weiyaoli

I have to put my vote where my suspicions are, with the deadline looming and all. The early FoS at cj seems so much like a scum set-up, and even he admitted that his reasoning for it was far-fetched.

I'm only finding one other person particularly scummy and that is Weeks. The reasons for this as I've said, lots of attacking of m_p day 1, no vote to back it up. I'd be happy with a vote on either right now.

EBWOP:

PhoenixEnigma wrote:I am also very distrustful of the VZ/FOAT position of suspecting people who didn't vote yesterday. Advocating that the townie thing to do would have been to (needlessly and knowingly) place oneself in a place to be suspected, creating wine and, arguably, increasing the odds of town being lynched day 2 is...well, wtf inducing, really. If I could vote for two people, I'd vote for both of them. As I can't, and don't really believe in FoS'ing...gah...scerw it, I'm not going to vote right now, because it's going to force me to come back and make another post in order to vote, and I need the motivation.

Quote fail.

[quote="PhoenixEnigma"I am also very distrustful of the VZ/FOAT position of suspecting people who didn't vote yesterday. Advocating that the townie thing to do would have been to (needlessly and knowingly) place oneself in a place to be suspected, creating wine and, arguably, increasing the odds of town being lynched day 2 is...well, wtf inducing, really. If I could vote for two people, I'd vote for both of them. As I can't, and don't really believe in FoS'ing...gah...scerw it, I'm not going to vote right now, because it's going to force me to come back and make another post in order to vote, and I need the motivation.[/quote]

Yes because ignoring day one information is a townie thing to do? Whilst we're at it why don't we just ignore all the posts that were made on day one as well?

If you had read my posts you'd realise that I wasn't going "Gee Willikers you didn't vote for scum you MUST all be scum!!!" because that would be stupid. However, using it as evidence alongside how people were acting yesterday and today and you'll realise there is a pretty solid case for suspicion towards some individuals. You'll notice I haven't singled out anyone for not voting and based that on the sole reason for my suspicion.

I disagree that we shouldn't be looking at yesterday's non-voters.

I've been in my fair share of games where lynch targets can completely change at the last minute and it's even more likely to happen in turbos. On the off-chance that this would happen it would be in scums best interest not to vote for m_p. Even more so when you consider the fact that there's no soft lynch. A few changed votes would of got him off, and scum wouldn't have had to risk looking scummy by changing because m_p would have been spared (so no role information) and theres no risk of a NL so that doesn't look bad. Especially with someone as scummy-acting as misterk lurking around yesterday, this could have easily happened if a vote had changed to him.

Those people who attacked m_p and didn't follow through with a vote just show reluctance. If you are finding someone particularly scummy acting and you're town, you should be placing votes not sitting back.

Didn't realise the day had re-started (have been absent from my computer). I'm inclined to agree anyone who didn't vote for m_p is looking dangerously scummy.

Top of my list at the moment is Weeks. Looking over the posts Weeks re-iterated "Read the damn thread/posts before you post" so many times to m_p it seemed like Weeks was getting really annoyed, and partially trying to help m_p get out of his hole by shouting advice down to him. One possible reason for this source of irritation would be that Weeks is scum with m_p. Weeks also did lots and lots of attacking on m_p but didn't follow through with a vote, an attempt in my books to look like town by joining their side but not placing a vote down incase m_p could get out of the situation somehow.

FoS: Weeks

Mav is probably next, only because I'm use to her playing a lot more aggressively when town. However, Mav knows this so may have toned down her pro-towniness so she's not getting killed N1 in every game shes not scum.

Finally, Wei's early FoS today of cjdrum I am finding a little strange. It seemed to me that cj was one of the main protagonists of voting off m_p, so seems unlikely to be scum (could be a gambit though). I do however think scum might try to captialise on cj & mpolos exhange from D1, by killing mpolo. For that reason:

FoS: Weiyaoli

Maybe I'm tired or it's the way that I am reading it that is wrong then? In my head it sounds like "Last time I played as scum", inferring that this time you are also playing as scum.

Even still my vote stays for the pre-emptive defense and the lynch deadline on the horizon.

EBWOP:

more_people wrote:And last time I played as scum, I was a replacement for someone who was going to be lynched and didn't get a chance to post anything!

Is this a scum claim?

more_people wrote:Anyway, ForAllOfThis, if you think we're scum then vote for us and explain why, and we will try our best to explain our actions.
BUT don't vote for us if you hate how we refer to ourselves.

Wow. Did you see me anywhere mention that I was going to vote for you because you call yourself we?

No? That's because I didn't. I actually gave my reason in that post:

ForAllOfThis wrote:This particularly pinged me. Defending yourself before you need to? Really?

Pre-emptively defending yourself seems like you have something to hide. So:

Vote: more_people

Seriously though, I doubt i'll be signing up to play another game that you're in if you continue to keep drawing attention to you're plural self-referral, instead of the game. Actually, you should stop the plural referral all together because I am finding it incredibly troll-like, as if you want to piss people off.

EBWOP: Quote-fail. Apologies.

Zid the sig said something along the lines of "I am really annoying for referring to myself as a plural and will only stop when I get loads of abusive PM's".

Off Topic: M_P's sig seems kind of troll-like.

@Wooy: You could say it's an insult to intelligence. I just call it a mistake when someone turns up the heat. On a meta note do you just like defending people? It's a really bad strategy: town or scum. The only time it's worth doing is if you're a mason.

Misterk's looking scummy for voting reasons and lack of defnitive answers, can't explain why mpolos reasoning is absrud (which it isn't). Although I agree with PE, that cj's posts could be chalked up to newness. I don't think mpolo questionning cj's logic warrants a vote on himself either. On the other hand..

m_p is posting complete crap:

[quote="more_people"We won't be on around the time misterk probably defends himself so don't judge us because we didn't unvote if he does, because we won't be on.[/quote]

This particularly pinged me. Defending yourself before you need to? Really?

I'm not entirely sure who I should vote for yet. I'll put a vote on before I go to sleep incase I miss the deadline, I've got a busy day ahead of me tomorrow.

Ninjaed: [off-topic] As I was saying, troll-like. Who gets hacked nowadays? [/off topic]

roband wrote:Yeah, claiming is allowed.

I won't go into why it's ill-advised to be claiming but.. the majority of you have seen the movie, right?

I'm guessing it's because everyone ends up dead?

@mpolo I agree with you're reasoning, more than that if a vote is warranted on anyone right now it's cj. It just seems only misterk didn't agree with your reasoning.

mister k wrote:yeah, thats just absurd

vote:mpolo

Reflex-vote to protect one of your mafia misterk? You should explain why you find the reasoning absurd.

FoS: Mister K

@Mav that would seem like a very difficult win condition. It's more likely that madolyn is just a doctor or maybe psychiatrist (if we have insane/paranoid cop results), I'd be expecting her to be town though because shes disgusted with sullivan when she finds out the truth. If independent then definitely pro-town I would say.

Theres also the guy who dies but knows costigan is a rat because he was told the wrong building but showed up at the right one. The papers reveal he was a rat but costello doesn't believe it. You never really find out cause he just tells costigan "Why do you think I never told them?" and then dies. That guy who costigan knocks teeth out of is a police informant as well. Costello is an FBI informant. Theres at least 3 extra moles on top of costigan and costello..

Gopher of Pern wrote:Thinking I might hire the movie out tonight, give it a watch. Otherwise I'll have no idea whats going on.

Also, moles everywhere? So, traitors?

Worth the rent, although it may be slightly ruined if youve read spoilers. I have no idea how the set-up of the traitors will work to be honest.

If Costigan is part of the scum team at the moment (undercover) then there must be a mechanic that stops scum claiming tonight, otherwise he'll probably get caught out and costello will kill him? The bastardry may be that win conditions are likely to change: Actually I think that this is the most likely source of the bastardy. Those playing moles might have their win conditions changed half way through the game or something, forcing them to double cross people.

Day has started so discussion should probably start.

I think this game could be a complete mindfuck. People I'm expecting to find on the scum side:

Frank Costello: Controls the kill?. FBI Snitch as well, so will be interesting to see how that works out. (Scum)
Sullivan: Godfather in the sense that he can't be copped (doesn't control the kill)? At least will seem town when copped I imagine. (Scum)
Mr French: Roleblocker of some sort? (Scum)

I don't think we can rule out a 4th scum (given theres 14 players), but not sure who it would be.

Confirmed =)

I've watched the film now. Ready to go go go!