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by Xanthir
Mon May 08, 2017 8:23 pm UTC
Forum: Gaming
Topic: Board games anyone?
Replies: 914
Views: 211148

Re: Board games anyone?

No spoilers, but "build-up of negative consequences" is basically the precise theme of the first big reveal, so don't worry, it's coming. A skilled Pandemic group with average luck won't run into much trouble the first game or two.
by Xanthir
Mon May 08, 2017 8:07 pm UTC
Forum: Gaming
Topic: Board games anyone?
Replies: 914
Views: 211148

Re: Board games anyone?

Yes, the game gets substantially harder as time goes on and Things© happen. (There's two *huge* reveals at about 1/3 and 2/3 thru the campaign, and things just generally get harder as you go.) You'll also find you lose much more often at 0 funding; the starting 4 funding is easy mode. That said, you...
by Xanthir
Mon May 08, 2017 8:03 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Alien Mathematics: A Math System Beyond our Comprehension?
Replies: 24
Views: 6899

Re: Alien Mathematics: A Math System Beyond our Comprehension?

I mean, Kronecker famously said "God created the integers, all else is the work of man.".

(Well, he said "Die ganzen Zahlen hat der liebe Gott gemacht, alles andere ist Menschenwerk.", but you get the meaning.)
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 11:24 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

I dunno. Here's the steps again: * The Devious machine is large, and contains an Oracle machine inside of itself. * The Devious machine expects to be fed a box of parts. It'll then either explode, or print a smiley face. * It does this by feeding that box of parts to its internal Oracle machine. * B...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 11:13 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

I'm going back to machines, because otherwise I don't understand how to suss out the issues. Oracle is already built into Devious; it's one of Devious's sub-components. Devious takes a box of parts as its input, magically duplicates the box, then passes both boxes to Oracle. The "trick" th...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 11:04 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

Almost! There's one part where I'm unclear what you're referring to, so let's clear that up: Here, we design a world in which we have Devious call Oracle as its sole argument. It sounds like you're saying here that Devious takes Oracle as its sole argument. Is this what you meant? If so, then this i...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 10:56 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

No. Devious just also has a magic duplicator as one of its internal components. Just like it also has bomb and smiley-face printer components.
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 10:43 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

Devious takes one box of parts. It then magically duplicates that box, inside itself, for its own internal reasons.

But you only *gave* it one box. It takes one argument, not two.
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 10:40 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

I'm quoting parts of my previous post that answer this exact issue. What part of those quotes are confusing you?
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 10:36 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

Yeah. What's the relevance of that?

It does this by feeding that box of parts to its internal Oracle machine.
* But the Oracle machine needs two inputs, as we already established. So the Devious machine first *duplicates* the box of parts you gave it, then feeds both of those boxes to the Oracle.
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 10:27 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

No, it only takes one. Why would you think that it needs to take two? * The Devious machine expects to be fed a box of parts. It'll then either explode, or print a smiley face. * It does this by feeding that box of parts to its internal Oracle machine. * But the Oracle machine needs two inputs, as w...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 10:23 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

I don't understand the contains-an-Oracle-machine inside itself part (recall that before Oracle accepted only two arguments), We've hit this point before - it's like your phone containing smaller machines in it - a CPU, a screen, a speaker, etc. The Oracle is a piece inside the large Devious machin...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 10:15 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

Okay. So now we can finally move the Devious machine. Tell me where this stops making sense: * The Devious machine is large, and contains an Oracle machine inside of itself. * The Devious machine expects to be fed a box of parts. It'll then either explode, or print a smiley face. * It does this by f...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 10:03 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

Yeah. We do distinguish the two, *right now*, and that's important - the Oracle doesn't *actually* feed the example input to a machine, because that might explode it; it just analyzes the box of parts, and tells you whether it would explode if it were constructed and fed the example input.
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 9:45 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

Like I said, it doesn't matter. (I answered that way because I assume a machine that lights things on fire would contain some flammable material, perhaps a propane tank, and this would explode when fed to a running LightsThingsOnFire machine.)
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 9:37 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

What's confusing about the fourth example that's not confusing about the third example? The two are, intentionally, almost identical.
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 9:15 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

↶ Yes, although to keep me less confused can we keep the two arguments consistent (i.e., machine and loose parts)? Maybe. I'm reluctant to do this because you're talking about the first argument as a "machine", which sounds like you're meaning a fully-assembled one. This confusion between...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 8:59 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

↶ ↶ Why do the machine and the input need to be separate? How about just giving the Oracle a machine and asking whether it'll blow up or not? Because A machine's behavior can change based on what you feed it, tho - some inputs make it explode, others don't. OK. That makes sense. So we're passing bo...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 8:49 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

MathDoofus wrote:
Why do the machine and the input need to be separate? How about just giving the Oracle a machine and asking whether it'll blow up or not?


Because

me, in the exact post you're replying to wrote:A machine's behavior can change based on what you feed it, tho - some inputs make it explode, others don't.
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 8:45 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

↶ They're just two inputs. The Oracle device takes two inputs. One *must* be a box of machine parts, the other can be *anything*. OK. Why does Oracle take two inputs, and what's the significance? Because Oracle's first input is a box of machine parts. Oracle wants to figure out what the machine wil...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 8:39 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

They're just two inputs. The Oracle device takes two inputs. One *must* be a box of machine parts, the other can be *anything*.
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 8:36 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

I thought so, but you keep claiming you can't. ^_^ Okay, so back to the machine examples. Do you understand how I could make an machine that takes a box of machine parts and some example material as input? Like, just the concept of a machine that takes a box of machine parts as input. (An assembler-...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 8:29 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

Can you explain this part in detail? How do we get Oracle to opine on a hypothetical while, at the same time, using Devious to show (or cause?) the actual to be the opposite? Explaining that part in detail is what I and others have been trying to do this whole time. Quit trying to jump straight to ...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 8:15 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

What I still don't understand is how we're allowed to say that Oracle is wrong when Devious gets to have the last word. Oracle is wrong because we asked it a question about a hypothetical situation, it said the result would be X, then we actually *did* that situation in real life, and we got Y inst...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 7:59 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

How can we say that Oracle is "wrong" when Devious is arriving at an outcome (or a state, or a result - not sure which word to use) only after Oracle reports back? That's what feels like cheating. Because we *ask* Oracle "what happens if we call Devious(Devious)?", and it gives ...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 7:46 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

How is Devious permitted to look at Oracle's output and only then do the opposite. That feels like cheating. It's just got an Oracle machine inside of itself. Running the Oracle machine is an independent operation. This is similar to asking how your phone is permitted to look at its CPU output and ...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 7:32 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

That's not the part where you're confused, based on your previous answers, but let's run with it. Again with the machine examples - do you find it confusing that the Devious machine can contain an Oracle machine inside of it? Most machines are made from smaller machines, in some sense. Your smartpho...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 7:15 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

↶ Okay, well that's literally step one of the entire construction, so I recommend thinking about that until you get it. You can't get any further without understanding that first step, as everything else builds on that. I think that I understand the Oracle. It's a program. It is supposed to evaluat...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 7:08 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

Okay, well that's literally step one of the entire construction, so I recommend thinking about that until you get it. You can't get any further without understanding that first step, as everything else builds on that.
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 6:59 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

Just to see how far this goes:

Do you understand what it means to feed an Oracle machine a box of machine parts and some materials, which is asking "If I were to build the machine in this box, and feed it these materials, will it work fine or explode?"?
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 6:55 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

I can't grasp how Devious can ask Oracle what happens in the case of Devious calling Devious, or even worse, what the outcome of Devious calling Devious would. Tell me where in this list your understanding fails you: 1. Do you understand how we can run Oracle(someProgram, someInput), which is askin...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 6:40 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

↶ Devious runs Oracle and--because we can make Oracle accept as much input of any kind as we like--asks Oracle what will happen if Devious runs Devious. No, here's where you keep falling down. Devious takes a program as input , and then asks Oracle what will happen if that program is given itself a...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 6:07 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

No, that's the most concrete way I can possibly explain it. The Oracle machine takes a box of machine parts and some stuff that you want to put in that machine. Inside of the Devious machine, you feed it exactly that - it receives a box of machine parts (specifically, the IKEA crate full of Devious ...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 5:56 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

I'm sorry; I can't follow code. Okay, that explains a lot of the difficulty. Lets go back to machines, which were briefly tried earlier in the thread. 1. We have some machines. You put material in one side, press the GO button, they do something internally, then pop a product out the other end. Mos...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 5:40 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

So it's not Oracle that we have to call on itself, but Devious? Yeah. And Devious itself has Oracle built in somehow? Sure. Oracle is written in code as well, you can just put that code in there. There's no self-reference or anything; Oracle doesn't contain Devious in its own code. And there's a th...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 5:33 pm UTC
Forum: Fictional Science
Topic: In scientific's definition, in a fantasy world would a beastman or an elf be considered the same species?
Replies: 24
Views: 7386

Re: In scientific's definition, in a fantasy world would a beastman or an elf be considered the same species?

Yeah, we've answered your surface question ("yes, no, or maybe, depending on which definition of 'species' you're using, because there are a lot of them"). Since you're still asking, that means there's a question behind your question that you're really trying to answer. Ask that one direct...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 5:28 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Halting Problem
Replies: 208
Views: 30870

Re: Halting Problem

Okay, now: 1. Recall Gmal's earlier post showing how you can interpret a program as a number, and even combine the program with a predefined input and then interpret the whole thing as a number . This is one way a program can take another program as input. (For example, we can say that it's how Orac...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 4:47 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Prime numbers
Replies: 30
Views: 5451

Re: Prime numbers

↶ Bits and Digits are different though, They're not. Bits are just digits in base 2 vs base 10. and I thought the complexity may also be dependent on the numerical base and the physical architecture of the system being used. Numerical base dependencies almost never occur, and when they do, they're ...
by Xanthir
Tue May 02, 2017 4:39 pm UTC
Forum: Coding
Topic: Basic Question Involving Functions (Python)
Replies: 18
Views: 7298

Re: Basic Question Involving Functions (Python)

Since you're a total beginner, I recommend steering away from most Python tutorials; they'll generally be teaching you Python itself, and assume you already have basic knowledge of how programming itself works. There's a big list of Python-related "I'm totally new to this whole programming nons...
by Xanthir
Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:02 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Interesting probability problem
Replies: 5
Views: 2192

Re: Interesting probability problem

Not looking at your solution yet, but I know from prior experience that the average distance between two uniformly-random points in an interval is 1/3 the length of the interval, so I believe I can just reverse that - E(x)=3δ.

Now I've looked at your trials, and: interesting!

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