Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby She » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:10 pm UTC

Hmm. There are no rules about it so pm:ing is not forbidden. This means that if either player believes that secrecy is advantageous, they will use it. In some games I can see a point with regulating that everything has to be open, but not the other way around. I personally prefer all activity to be in the thread, at the very least it gives a feeling of stuff going on. But I won't try to make a rule against sending pm:s, as any game-related activity is good activity.

And to paraphrase Dr Strangelove, the point of a doomsday devi- I mean mutual defense pact is to tell everyone about it.


I name _infina_ my successor (should I for any reason lose my title e will recieve my county).

I pen the following petition:
---
Re-drafting
Let x be the number of players supporting this petition. 2x soldiers are taken from the players not supporting it (how many soldiers are taken from whom is for the King to decide) and disitributed equally among the supporters. (This is not a law but a one-off effect.)
---
I sign it, support it, and ask my vassal to support it too.


Skellious: yes, this used to be a stricter nomic, where the word of the law mattered more than the gameplay itself. Right now we have a meta-judge which means any such mistake (e.g. "oops, voting is no longer defined so I guess everyone just has one vote") is corrected by me saying what it was intended to say. If anyone dislikes this order of things, please say so. I'm happy with either kind of game, but the current ruleset might have some inconsistensies that just haven't been called on since people get what it means anyway.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby _infina_ » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:50 pm UTC

She wrote:I pen the following petition:
---
Re-drafting
Let x be the number of players supporting this petition. 2x soldiers are taken from the players not supporting it (how many soldiers are taken from whom is for the King to decide) and disitributed equally among the supporters. (This is not a law but a one-off effect.)
---
I sign it, support it, and ask my vassal to support it too.


I support the above petition.
I give Lord She the command of my soldiers in times of war.
Spoiler:
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:59 am UTC

She, you are quite correct :p

There is no reason to HAVE to declare deals between players, just the resource trades and troop movements that occur, without explanation if you so wish.

In my opinion part of the problem is the rules are quite complicated now (and I have less and less time to follow them than when I joined this nomic many moons ago.... in a thread far, far away. (couldn't resist :P))

I support She's petition (are there REALLY no rules for voting now?? - how did THAT get deleted? thank god for the metajudge.)
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby She » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:50 pm UTC

Nono, skellious, there are rules for voting. That was an example of a situation that would require the meta-judge. My petition is unrelated to this, as you probably noticed.

Hmm, yes, the ruleset is getting a bit complicated. that's the problem with nomics: it takes a very complicated ruleset to describe quite simple functions. I mena, the rules we have currently define about as much as the resource-building system of the first age of empire game, or your average boardgame.


On an unrelated note, in my opinion we have enough of a system, and stable enough a system, to be content with the core mechanics of land owning, resources and warfare. Instead of building on to this system fourther, I will now try to shift more to the role of an actual noble, as I want to feel the court intrigue that we envisioned months back in the reboot, when we switched to 6.1 iirc. For those of you who weren't here then, we had great ideas about nomic paired with the court intrigue theme, but pretty much decided that we wanted a stable resource and warfare system before that could really take flight. I believe it now has.

I want a show of hands of everyone who can see themselves playing this game as a noble at least semi-actively (say at least two posts between each court). Regardless of whether you are a noble right now or not. The question is that balance of power might work much better with four nobles than three, as an alliance of two against the third is pretty much set to win.


Yet another note: how about having a Royal Guard that could, when instructed by petition or law, be set to reclaim land from nobles? This would be paired with some land being unruled and in anarchy, which could either be claimed for one soldier per ql or distributed at next court to the player highest on the list. On the whole, I want list position to mean something. Either that, or repeal the list and make the reward for passing a petition just be some resource, maybe that's better.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:00 pm UTC

I would, but I need a vassal to be active so i can do stuff :P
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby _infina_ » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:12 pm UTC

Those are all good ideas, my Lord. Four nobles would be a good idea, if we had enough active vassals. Right now, only me and WHSTech are active vassals. For a fourth noble, more active vassals are needed.
Spoiler:
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:17 pm UTC

or a way to gather resources without vassals (perhaps at 1/2 the amount?)
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby _infina_ » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:36 am UTC

skellious wrote:or a way to gather resources without vassals (perhaps at 1/2 the amount?)

I am working on a petition to do such. Here is what I have so far:
I petition that Rule 109 be changed to include f)Nobles may collect from their free land, but resources shall valued at 2.5 times the value for vassals, rounded up to the nearest whole number. Putting values at:
Gold: 3
Wood: 5
Stone: 8
Ore: 10
Soldiers: 15

It is incomplete, and suggestions are welcome/encouraged.

If a fourth noble becomes existent, I would suggest increasing the size of the kingdom to something that can be divided equally among four to start. Reading back, I believe there was something that was discussed about the best way to do so, if it was needed.
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:44 am UTC

make it 60qls.

but hang on, havent you made it so a noble is BETTER at gathering resources? this would discourage vassals.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby _infina_ » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:05 pm UTC

no, i made it so it is harder for them to do so, to get a single gold, they need 3 ql, where a vassal can produce 1 gold for every ql.
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

Malo mbwa mwitu

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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby e^iπ+1=0 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:36 pm UTC

"If a resources Value is x, then every x ql owned by the same vassal produce one unit of that resource."

So yeah, Infina is right and that would work fine. I want to hold court soon, so get in any last votes or anything else soon.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:54 pm UTC

"resources shall valued at 2.5 times the value for vassals, rounded up to the nearest whole number." to me, that says resources nobles collect are worth 2.5 times as much. valued is the issue for me. I support the petition if it is one yet, with the proviso that it is interpreted as king e stated.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby _infina_ » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:05 pm UTC

It is not, I need some help with the wording.
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

Malo mbwa mwitu

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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:10 pm UTC

_infina_ wrote:It is not, I need some help with the wording.


I suggest following king e's wording.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby _infina_ » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:19 pm UTC

I petition that Rule 109 be changed to include
f)Nobles may collect from their free land. If a resources Value is x, then every x ql of free land owned by the same noble produce one unit of that resource.
Values for nobles:
Gold: 3
Wood: 5
Stone: 8
Ore: 10
Soldiers: 15


Does this wording work for you, skellious?
If it does, then I will sign it.
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

Malo mbwa mwitu

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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby e^iπ+1=0 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:22 pm UTC

Sounds unambiguous enough to me, at least.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:29 pm UTC

_infina_ wrote:
I petition that Rule 109 be changed to include
f)Nobles may collect from their free land. If a resources Value is x, then every x ql of free land owned by the same noble produce one unit of that resource.
Values for nobles:
Gold: 3
Wood: 5
Stone: 8
Ore: 10
Soldiers: 15


Does this wording work for you, skellious?
If it does, then I will sign it.


yes, I sign and support and rubber stamp and dance on the grave of (maybe not the last one) this petition.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby eggdudeguy » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:48 pm UTC

Do vassals approve / disprove things too?
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:18 pm UTC

eggdudeguy wrote:Do vassals approve / disprove things too?


they can, not sure if it has any bearing though :P

also, why are you not working in the fields?
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby eggdudeguy » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:17 am UTC

I am, but even after reading the rules I'm really not clear on what I do here besides read posts.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:05 pm UTC

you say

"I collect my resources from 16qls:

16 gold
8 wood
5 stone
4 ore
2 soldiers"

see here for why: http://myexactthoughts.com/nomic/index.php?title=The_Law_of_the_Land#109.

you also need to state your total holdings including any buildings and update the wiki page: http://myexactthoughts.com/nomic/index. ... 27s_Office (you need to add yourself to it since you are nont yet on it, im sure you will see what to do.)
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby kerfuffleninja » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:12 pm UTC

I vote for She's petition. I vote against infinia's. I remind Skellious and eggdudeguy that vassals having >4ql may vote. I remind Skellious that the Law page on the wiki is out of date. I'll fix that soon enough, unless someone else wants to do it, pretty please. I remind all of you that the petitions at http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=61024&start=320#p2284854 are still up for vote.

I set forth the following petition:
WHEREAS people can break The Law without any real consequence, and
WHEREAS this can, at times, provide for a disorderly and chaotic kingdom
BE IT RESOLVED that a law be enacted to read as follows:

"a) When a petition is set forth, it may be specified that there is a penalty for breaking the law or laws defined therein.
i) This is to be done by adding a line item to the law which reads "Any citizen who breaks this law is subject to a fine of [amount of resources], as per Law [this law]."
ii) Additionally, fines may be added to existing laws, by amending the laws to include the above item.
iii) The amount of resources specified can be an exact amount, a minimum, a maximum, or a range. The fine may be made up of multiple resources.
b) Lord Kerfuffleninja shall hold the title of Royal Prosecutor. He shall determine when a law has been broken. He shall also determine the appropriate fine, if a range is specified.
i) When the Royal Prosecutor determines that a fine is necessary, he shall make it known to the law breaker, whether through PM or posting in the forum thread. Any outstanding fines shall be listed by the Royal Prosecutor at http://myexactthoughts.com/nomic/index.php?title=Prosecutor%27s_Office . Until all a Citizen's outstanding fines have been paid off, they have no voting rights.
ii) All fines are to be paid to the reigning monarch. When a fine is paid, the citizen who paid the fine shall remove the fine's entry from the Prosecutor's Office wiki page.
c) Lord Kerfuffleninja is entitled to be called Judge Kerfuffleninja."

Additionally, BE IT RESOLVED that, upon the passage of this petition, "[this law]" shall be changed to reflect the instated law's number.



Sorry if that's a bit confusing, but it gets the job done. I sign and vote for this petition.

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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:22 pm UTC

I sign/support Lord k's petition.

I point out that the correct term of address for a Lord and a Judge is: Lord Justice - and since Lord K shall be the Lord Justice in charge, he is entitled to be called Lord Chief Justice.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby WHSTech » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:32 pm UTC

I support my Lord Kerfuffleninja's petitions found here.
I support She's petition.
I vote against Infina's petition.
I support Kerfuffleninja's petition regarding consequences for breaking laws.

I collect the resources generated by my 6ql amounting to 6 gold, 3 wood, 2 stone, 1 ore, and 1 soldier.
I build a siege factory costing 2 wood, 1 ore, and 4 gold.
I feed 2 gold, 1 ore, and 1 wood to my barracks creating 3 soldiers.

Resources:
0 gold
0 wood
2 stone
0 ore
17 soldiers
Buildings:
Barracks
Archery Range
Lumber Mill
Mine
Smelter
Siege Factory
1 Wall

I would also like to suggest to my Lord Kerfuffleninja that Levi be stripped of his fiefdom for inactivity and that his 5ql be turned over to me to operate.

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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby _infina_ » Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:05 pm UTC

I support my petition.
I support Lord Kerfuffleninja's proposal for creating a system for fines.
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

Malo mbwa mwitu

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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby She » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:09 pm UTC

Vassals can do a lot of stuff. They can both write and vote on petitions (support and oppose, as it's not actually called voting). That is the basis of any nomic, so it would be bad form not to allow anyone to do it, or at least easily achieve a way of doing so. Your vote is weighted according to the amount of land you control. However, "control" in this context is a bit odd as both the Noble and eir vassals are said to control their land - a noble with a 17 ql county has 17 votes, even if e has a vassal with all of it as eir fief and thus 17 votes as well. This means that a noble who wants great influence should apportion all eir land among vassals and get them to vote how e wants them to, as the votes will then effectively be doubled. There might still be a clause about needing 5 ql to sign a petition, too, but I think everyone has either 0 or ≥5 ql right now.

Vassals also collect and manage resources from the land they control. This system is not very intriguing maybe, as the only thing you can do is collect your weekly income and build some building, but soon enough some nobles are bound to start collecting taxes and stuff.

I abstain on L kerfuffleninja's petition. It works but I don't really care about it. Infina may vote as e sees fit.
I support Infina's petition.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby She » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:10 pm UTC

Also: I'd like to point out that Infina's petition is technically Skellious' petition. The former wrote it, so referring to it with eir name is probably sufficient to identify it, but it was the latter who signed it and thus will have eir list position changed based on its adoption or rejection.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:20 pm UTC

She wrote:Also: I'd like to point out that Infina's petition is technically Skellious' petition. The former wrote it, so referring to it with eir name is probably sufficient to identify it, but it was the latter who signed it and thus will have eir list position changed based on its adoption or rejection.


is it? oops :S I didn't mean to do that (sorry Infina!)
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby e^iπ+1=0 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:48 pm UTC

For the record, Eggdudeguy is still not a vassal as he has still not sworn an Oath of Fealty.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:09 am UTC

oh yer, i forgot about that. eggdudeguy, get down on your knees and swear you will obey me!
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby eggdudeguy » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:54 am UTC

skellious wrote:oh yer, i forgot about that. eggdudeguy, get down on your knees and swear you will obey me!


Done.

Now what?
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby She » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:55 am UTC

Now you may collect resources from the land you rule. Skellious lets you do this because e can't do it emself, so e needs a vassal who then can drive a bargain to keep some resources for emself. E can tax you, though, so don't expect to be able to go all rogue and keep your fiefdom.
You may now sign petitions, which makes them eligible for actual voting. Anyone can wrote a petition. but only someone who rules at least 5 qls can sign it. When you sign a petition, you gain or lose one position on the list depending on whether it passes or fails. Currently, there's not really much of a bonus for being at the top of the list, but you're welcome to propose something.
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:48 pm UTC

1275878408569.jpg


Nurse, this thread needs an injection of life, stat!
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby _infina_ » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:04 am UTC

I collect 17 Gold, 8 Wood, 5 Stone, 4 Ore, and 2 Soldiers.
I build a defense tower costing 1 gold, 1 wood, 1 stone, and 1 soldier.
I feed 12 Gold, 6 Wood, and 6 Ore into my Barracks, which gives me 18 Soldiers.

Resources:
10 Gold
1 Wood
6 Stone
0 Ore
27 Soldiers

Buildings:
Barracks, Archery Range, Lumber Mill, Mine, Defense Tower
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

Malo mbwa mwitu

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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:52 am UTC

_infina_ wrote:I collect 17 Gold, 8 Wood, 5 Stone, 4 Ore, and 2 Soldiers.
I build a defense tower costing 1 gold, 1 wood, 1 stone, and 1 soldier.
I feed 12 Gold, 6 Wood, and 6 Ore into my Barracks, which gives me 18 Soldiers.

Resources:
10 Gold
1 Wood
6 Stone
0 Ore
27 Soldiers

Buildings:
Barracks, Archery Range, Lumber Mill, Mine, Defense Tower



Thanks for posting! I might have to give my Vassal a short, sharp prod soon!
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:10 pm UTC

also,

"Smelter

1 stone, 1 wood, 2 gold

Requires Mine

Turn 1 ore into 1 gold "

is not useful

it should make 4-6 gold!
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby eggdudeguy » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:05 pm UTC

I collect:

16 gold
8 wood
5 stone
4 Ore
2 soldiers

I build:

Archery range
Wall
Lumber mill

and I give Lord Skellious 2 gold.

This leaves me with

10 gold
4 wood
3 stone
4 Ore
1 soldier
KrazyerKate wrote:While it's probably the strangest sounding advice I will ever give, we need to stay focused on Hardcore Pornography in order to be successful.


I have a Blog and I make Games. I also have a big multiplayer game in the works (coming soonish!).

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skellious
Posts: 270
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Location: Dundee, UK
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby skellious » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:11 pm UTC

I give Lord Kerfuffleninja 1 gold.

I have one gold.
kerfuffleninja wrote: Minutes are the same length in Europe, right?

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eggdudeguy
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Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby eggdudeguy » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:07 pm UTC

I now use 3 wood, 3 gold to "build" 4 soldiers at the archery range and use 1 stone, 1 wood, 1 gold, and 1 soldier to build a Defense Tower.

I am left with:

6 gold
0 wood
2 stone
4 Ore
4 soldiers

Archery range, Wall, Lumber mill, Defense Tower
KrazyerKate wrote:While it's probably the strangest sounding advice I will ever give, we need to stay focused on Hardcore Pornography in order to be successful.


I have a Blog and I make Games. I also have a big multiplayer game in the works (coming soonish!).

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She
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:08 pm UTC
Location: Sweden

Re: Munroevia (Nomic 6.1)

Postby She » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:57 pm UTC

skellious wrote:[Smelter] is not useful
it should make 4-6 gold!

So propose to up the capacity of all smelters!
She speaks in the third person
So she can forget that she's me


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