A subring of the reals???
Moderators: gmalivuk, Moderators General, Prelates

 Posts: 9
 Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:35 am UTC
A subring of the reals???
Given this set:
Q[a+b[imath]\sqrt[3]2[/imath]+c[imath]\sqrt[3]4[/imath] : a,b [imath]\in[/imath]Q}
I am able to show this is closed under addition, has additive inverse, and has additive identity. I am stuck proving that this is closed under multiplication.
As a side question, are the above four things sufficient to show that this is indeed a subring. We have not "learned" that showing that subtraction and multiplication are closed is sufficient to demonstrate something is a subring.
Q[a+b[imath]\sqrt[3]2[/imath]+c[imath]\sqrt[3]4[/imath] : a,b [imath]\in[/imath]Q}
I am able to show this is closed under addition, has additive inverse, and has additive identity. I am stuck proving that this is closed under multiplication.
As a side question, are the above four things sufficient to show that this is indeed a subring. We have not "learned" that showing that subtraction and multiplication are closed is sufficient to demonstrate something is a subring.
Re: A subring of the reals???
Remember: [imath]a^xb^x=(ab)^x[/imath]. That includes cases where [imath]x=1/3[/imath] (like you have). With this in mind, just multiply two generic elements and see that the product can be massaged into the desired form.
Code: Select all
_=0,w=1,(*t)(int,int);a()??<char*p="[gd\
~/d~/\\b\x7F\177l*~/~djal{x}h!\005h";(++w
<033)?(putchar((*t)(w??(p:>,w?_:0XD)),a()
):0;%>O(x,l)??<_='['/7;{return!(x%(_11))
?x??'l:x^(1+ ++l);}??>main(){t=&O;w=a();}

 Posts: 9
 Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:35 am UTC
Re: A subring of the reals???
Cool.
Finally, is it just four axioms that demonstrate that a subset is a subring?
Finally, is it just four axioms that demonstrate that a subset is a subring?

 Posts: 42
 Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:15 pm UTC
Re: A subring of the reals???
tom.young84 wrote:Cool.
Finally, is it just four axioms that demonstrate that a subset is a subring?
Also it has to be nonempty, but that's trivial here.
 skeptical scientist
 closedminded spiritualist
 Posts: 6142
 Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 am UTC
 Location: San Francisco
Re: A subring of the reals???
tom.young84 wrote:Finally, is it just four axioms that demonstrate that a subset is a subring?
Well, since a subring is a subset of a ring, you can deduce most of the ring axioms because they hold in the larger structure. You really only need to check that contains the zero element and is closed under addition, multiplication, and taking additive inverses. If these three properties hold, all of the ring axioms can be shown to hold as well, and that's the real definition of a subring: a subset of a ring which is itself a ring under the inherited operations of addition and multiplication.
Suffusion of Yellow wrote:Also it has to be nonempty, but that's trivial here.
If it contains the additive identity/zero element, it is certainly nonempty.
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.
"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson
"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson

 Posts: 9
 Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:35 am UTC
Re: A subring of the reals???
This is just to make sure I did multiplication right:
ea+(af+eb)[imath]\sqrt[3]2[/imath]+(ag+bf+ec)[imath]\sqrt[3]4[/imath]+(bg+cf)[imath]\sqrt[3]8[/imath]+cg[imath]\sqrt[3]16[/imath]
Additionally...this looks like it will be a pain to prove it is a field
ea+(af+eb)[imath]\sqrt[3]2[/imath]+(ag+bf+ec)[imath]\sqrt[3]4[/imath]+(bg+cf)[imath]\sqrt[3]8[/imath]+cg[imath]\sqrt[3]16[/imath]
Additionally...this looks like it will be a pain to prove it is a field
Re: A subring of the reals???
This depends on your definitions, but if your rings are required to have an identity element, you also need to check that your subring contains 1.
Note that it's not enough to show that the subring has an identity. If your rings are required to have identity, {(n,0)  n in Z} is generally not considered to be a subring of Z x Z.
Note that it's not enough to show that the subring has an identity. If your rings are required to have identity, {(n,0)  n in Z} is generally not considered to be a subring of Z x Z.
Jerry Bona wrote:The Axiom of Choice is obviously true; the Well Ordering Principle is obviously false; and who can tell about Zorn's Lemma?

 Posts: 9
 Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:35 am UTC
Re: A subring of the reals???
Don't I have to computer a solution to the equation ax=1.
As such, won't this inverse be obnoxious since there is a lot of book keeping.
As such, won't this inverse be obnoxious since there is a lot of book keeping.
Re: A subring of the reals???
It will be if you insist on writing everything out explicitly, but there are very general ways to prove statements like this that require much less work.

 Posts: 778
 Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:58 pm UTC
 Location: Palo Alto, CA
Re: A subring of the reals???
tom.young84 wrote:Additionally...this looks like it will be a pain to prove it is a field
When did fields come into this? I thought you just had to show it was a subring?
GENERATION 16 + 31i: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum. Square it, and then add i to the generation.

 Posts: 9
 Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:35 am UTC
Re: A subring of the reals???
It was attached to the question. I was consumed by showing the explicit details of how multiplication is closed.
What are the general ways to show this is a field? I believed I calculated what the inverse would look like, but if there is one that requires far less work I would like to know for future reference.
What are the general ways to show this is a field? I believed I calculated what the inverse would look like, but if there is one that requires far less work I would like to know for future reference.
Re: A subring of the reals???
Hint: It is a finitedimensional vector space over Q, so injective linear maps from itself to itself are also surjective.
Jerry Bona wrote:The Axiom of Choice is obviously true; the Well Ordering Principle is obviously false; and who can tell about Zorn's Lemma?
Re: A subring of the reals???
I think the slickest way of checking if the subset E of a ring R is a subring is the following: For all x, y in E, xy is in E, and xy is in E. If you want a ring with identity, substitute the last check with xy^(1) edit: multiplication isn't necessarily a group. You should verify that this accounts for all the axioms of a ring, which yes you are correct about.
Last edited by edahl on Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:22 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
 skeptical scientist
 closedminded spiritualist
 Posts: 6142
 Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 am UTC
 Location: San Francisco
Re: A subring of the reals???
edahl wrote:If you want a ring with identity, substitute the last check with xy^(1).
There are things which are subrings which don't satisfy that last requirement. E.g. F[x^{2}] ≤ F[x].
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.
"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson
"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson
Re: A subring of the reals???
You show that something is a field by verifying the field axioms. Anyway, I never understood this [imath]x  y[/imath] condition. It's usually just as hard to verify as showing closure under addition and additive inverse, and either way it doesn't take much time.
What I meant by my comment is that there are really slick ways to show closure under addition, multiplication, and division, but from the look of the OP it sounds like you haven't learned about quotients yet, so you should wait for that.
What I meant by my comment is that there are really slick ways to show closure under addition, multiplication, and division, but from the look of the OP it sounds like you haven't learned about quotients yet, so you should wait for that.

 Posts: 9
 Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:35 am UTC
Re: A subring of the reals???
We have just finished up our summary of subrings. So I'm not sure of all the slick tricks.
Additionally, I have computed by hand what the solution to ax=1 would be (the condition to verify this is a field according to Introduction to Algebra). It's ugly and I'm not sure if I did it right:
[math]\frac{ab[imath]\sqrt[3]2[/imath]c[imath]\sqrt[3]4[/imath]}{a^{2}b[imath]\sqrt[3]4[/imath]2bc[imath]\sqrt[3]8[/imath]c^{2}[imath]\sqrt[3]16[/imath]}[/math]
Additionally, I have computed by hand what the solution to ax=1 would be (the condition to verify this is a field according to Introduction to Algebra). It's ugly and I'm not sure if I did it right:
[math]\frac{ab[imath]\sqrt[3]2[/imath]c[imath]\sqrt[3]4[/imath]}{a^{2}b[imath]\sqrt[3]4[/imath]2bc[imath]\sqrt[3]8[/imath]c^{2}[imath]\sqrt[3]16[/imath]}[/math]
 Cleverbeans
 Posts: 1378
 Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:16 pm UTC
Re: A subring of the reals???
Quick simplification  what's the cube root of 8?
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."  Abraham Lincoln
 skeptical scientist
 closedminded spiritualist
 Posts: 6142
 Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 am UTC
 Location: San Francisco
Re: A subring of the reals???
tom.young84 wrote:We have just finished up our summary of subrings. So I'm not sure of all the slick tricks.
Additionally, I have computed by hand what the solution to ax=1 would be (the condition to verify this is a field according to Introduction to Algebra). It's ugly and I'm not sure if I did it right:
[math]\frac{ab[imath]\sqrt[3]2[/imath]c[imath]\sqrt[3]4[/imath]}{a^{2}b[imath]\sqrt[3]4[/imath]2bc[imath]\sqrt[3]8[/imath]c^{2}[imath]\sqrt[3]16[/imath]}[/math]
That doesn't look like an element of your subring. I mean, it might be, but how would you know since it doesn't have the correct form?
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.
"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson
"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson
 Cleverbeans
 Posts: 1378
 Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:16 pm UTC
Re: A subring of the reals???
Then you'll want to simplify the cube root of 16 as well.
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."  Abraham Lincoln
Re: A subring of the reals???
t0rajir0u wrote:You show that something is a field by verifying the field axioms. Anyway, I never understood this [imath]x  y[/imath] condition. It's usually just as hard to verify as showing closure under addition and additive inverse, and either way it doesn't take much time.
What I meant by my comment is that there are really slick ways to show closure under addition, multiplication, and division, but from the look of the OP it sounds like you haven't learned about quotients yet, so you should wait for that.
It's just a cool little thing you can do as an exercise (I'm taking abstract algebra now, and I thought it was a bit cool), so it's not something to pay too much attention to.
And yes, I did err somewhat in my post up there, so don't listen to that crap!
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests