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Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 10:43 am UTC
by Spambot5546
It's true that your recommended daily amount of protein is fairly low. I get about 155 grams, but that's because I took up weightlifting a few months ago. Livestrong.com wants me to get only 39 grams per day.

I was hesitant about the idea of struggling to get under protein requirements as a vegan, but it turns out the soybeans used in many vegan products are crazy high in protein, as is tofu (which is made of said beans).

I'm pretty sure they're VERY highly exaggerating the risk of acidosis, though. People with acidic blood are easy to recognize by the Kussmaul Respirations. That's not really something I see a lot in my day-to-day so I'd wager there aren't a lot of Americans running around with terribly unbalanced Ph.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:18 am UTC
by PM 2Ring
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid
Wikipedia wrote:Uric acid is a heterocyclic compound of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and hydrogen with the formula C5H4N4O3. It forms ions and salts known as urates and acid urates such as ammonium acid urate. Uric acid is a product of the metabolic breakdown of purine nucleotides. High blood concentrations of uric acid can lead to gout. The chemical is associated with other medical conditions including diabetes and the formation of ammonium acid urate kidney stones.

[...]

In humans and higher primates, uric acid is the final oxidation (breakdown) product of purine metabolism and is excreted in urine.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purine
Wikipedia wrote:Metabolism

Many organisms have metabolic pathways to synthesize and break down purines.

Purines are biologically synthesized as nucleosides (bases attached to ribose).

Accumulation of modified purine nucleotides is defective to various cellular processes, especially those involving DNA and RNA. To be viable, organisms possess a number of (deoxy)purine phosphohydrolases, which hydrolyze these purine derivatives removing them from the active NTP and dNTP pools. Deamination of purine bases can result in accumulation of such nucleotides as ITP, dITP, XTP and dXTP.[5]

Defects in enzymes that control purine production and breakdown can severely alter a cell’s DNA sequences, which may explain why people who carry certain genetic variants of purine metabolic enzymes have a higher risk for some types of cancer.

Sources

Purines are found in high concentration in meat and meat products, especially internal organs such as liver and kidney. In general, plant-based diets are low in purines.[6] Examples of high-purine sources include: sweetbreads, anchovies, sardines, liver, beef kidneys, brains, meat extracts (e.g., Oxo, Bovril), herring, mackerel, scallops, game meats, beer (from the yeast) and gravy.

A moderate amount of purine is also contained in beef, pork, poultry, other fish and seafood, asparagus, cauliflower, spinach, mushrooms, green peas, lentils, dried peas, beans, oatmeal, wheat bran, wheat germ, and hawthorn.[7]

Higher levels of meat and seafood consumption are associated with an increased risk of gout, whereas a higher level of consumption of dairy products is associated with a decreased risk. Moderate intake of purine-rich vegetables or protein is not associated with an increased risk of gout.[8]

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:49 am UTC
by Izawwlgood
Man, that is some handwavy psuedoscience.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 2:23 pm UTC
by lorb
stoppedcaring wrote:I just noticed one line from way earlier in this thread:
[...]
It's really hard to make a quantitative moral-ethical argument for vegetarianism or veganism. A qualitative one is simple: "I don't want to eat any dead animals." That's fine. But a quantitative one -- "I don't want to contribute to the suffering of animals" -- is a little trickier. Abstaining from animal products takes you out of the supply and demand system. Not only are you now incapable of influencing the system, but you've decreased the size of the demand, meaning that the supply chain must cut costs in order to remain economically viable. Either you will have no influence (removing one meat consumer out of a nation of 300 million isn't going to save the life of a single animal) or your decision will actively lead to more suffering.
[...]


Abstaining from animal products does not take you out of the supply and demand system of food. It increases demand for vegan food. Besides that, if the argument that one person out of 300 million isn't going to change anything to the better was actually a good and convincing argument, nothing would have ever changed. There wouldn't even be a civil rights movement and maybe even slavery would still be around. Wikipedia also says that various polls place the percentage of people that don't consume meat between 1% and 10% of the population. That's definitely an economically relevant size and it is rather increasing than decreasing.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country#United_States

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 4:07 pm UTC
by JudeMorrigan
Xilmi wrote:Actual [protein] consumption is even higher than these suggestions for most countries.
In the US it's an average of 200 gramms a day.

Putting aside everything else in your post, do you have a legitimate citation for the average protein consumption in the US being that high? This is a bit old, but:

Protein intake averaged 56 ± 14 g/d in young children, increased to a high of ≈91 ± 22 g/d in adults aged 19–30 y, and decreased to ≈66 ± 17 g/d in the elderly.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/5/1554S.full

On an anecdotal note, that more closely meshes with my own perception. I went through a phase where I tried to do the whole 1g/lb body weight that some strength training programs recommend. Hitting 180g/day was *hard* for me, even with things like cow's milk based protein shakes.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 4:13 pm UTC
by Izawwlgood
Body builders recommend between 1.5-2g/lb/day, so, the notion that everyone in the US is consuming roughly on par with body builders is pretty hilarious. Xilmi has posted a lot of psuedoscience in this thread, but this last post is the most egregious.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:18 pm UTC
by Spambot5546
Honestly, the whole concept of veganism as a way to eat healthy seems silly. The line between healthy food and unhealthy food isn't drawn between animal products and non animal products, but rather there are healthy and unhealthy things in both categories. Veganism end up just being an arbitrary restriction that limits your healthy eating options.

It wouldn't surprise me if vegans do have healthier diets on average, but that's mostly because people who don't restrict their diets can (and often do) just eat whatever with little thought beyond what sounds yummy at that time. Vegans have to plan out their diet, and a planned diet is always better than an unplanned one.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:26 pm UTC
by stoppedcaring
Spambot5546 wrote:Honestly, the whole concept of veganism as a way to eat healthy seems silly. The line between healthy food and unhealthy food isn't drawn between animal products and non animal products, but rather there are healthy and unhealthy things in both categories. Veganism end up just being an arbitrary restriction that limits your healthy eating options.

It wouldn't surprise me if vegans do have healthier diets on average, but that's mostly because people who don't restrict their diets can (and often do) just eat whatever with little thought beyond what sounds yummy at that time. Vegans have to plan out their diet, and a planned diet is always better than an unplanned one.

This, honestly, is the only reason so many fad diets can ever get off the ground. Most people who would be attracted to a fad diet have eating habits that are neither balanced nor healthy, and so the vast majority of planned diets (whether it's cutting out all carbs, or cutting out all fats, or cutting out all sugars, or cutting out all gluten, or cutting out all animal products, or whatever) are going to result in at least marginally more balance, consistency, and so forth. At which point the testimonials start rolling in.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:31 pm UTC
by Spambot5546
Well a fad diet isn't the same thing as a planned diet. A planned diet is going in knowing what your body needs and what is in your food and building your diet to provide that. Fad diets, by contrast, are built largely around ignorance.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:44 pm UTC
by Izawwlgood
Spambot5546 wrote:It wouldn't surprise me if vegans do have healthier diets on average, but that's mostly because people who don't restrict their diets can (and often do) just eat whatever with little thought beyond what sounds yummy at that time. Vegans have to plan out their diet, and a planned diet is always better than an unplanned one.
Actually, not exactly what you're saying, but have you seen this?

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:45 pm UTC
by stoppedcaring
Spambot5546 wrote:Well a fad diet isn't the same thing as a planned diet. A planned diet is going in knowing what your body needs and what is in your food and building your diet to provide that. Fad diets, by contrast, are built largely around ignorance.

True, but even a fad diet still involves planning and consistency, which often results in non-negligible (though widely suboptimal) improvements to diet over the former approach.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:22 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
Spambot5546 wrote:Well a fad diet isn't the same thing as a planned diet. A planned diet is going in knowing what your body needs and what is in your food and building your diet to provide that. Fad diets, by contrast, are built largely around ignorance.
It's a planned diet in the colloquial sense of "plan", though, because it involves making plans about your diet, regardless of whether they're actually good or healthy plans.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:24 pm UTC
by doogly
Sounds like an attempt to "no true scotsman" it.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:38 pm UTC
by Spambot5546
I think it's more an attempt to seize on the word "plan" and ignore the fact that fad diet has a definition that runs contradictory to how I described a planned diet.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:44 pm UTC
by Angua
PM 2Ring wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid
Wikipedia wrote:Uric acid is a heterocyclic compound of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and hydrogen with the formula C5H4N4O3. It forms ions and salts known as urates and acid urates such as ammonium acid urate. Uric acid is a product of the metabolic breakdown of purine nucleotides. High blood concentrations of uric acid can lead to gout. The chemical is associated with other medical conditions including diabetes and the formation of ammonium acid urate kidney stones.

[...]

In humans and higher primates, uric acid is the final oxidation (breakdown) product of purine metabolism and is excreted in urine.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purine
Wikipedia wrote:Metabolism

Many organisms have metabolic pathways to synthesize and break down purines.

Purines are biologically synthesized as nucleosides (bases attached to ribose).

Accumulation of modified purine nucleotides is defective to various cellular processes, especially those involving DNA and RNA. To be viable, organisms possess a number of (deoxy)purine phosphohydrolases, which hydrolyze these purine derivatives removing them from the active NTP and dNTP pools. Deamination of purine bases can result in accumulation of such nucleotides as ITP, dITP, XTP and dXTP.[5]

Defects in enzymes that control purine production and breakdown can severely alter a cell’s DNA sequences, which may explain why people who carry certain genetic variants of purine metabolic enzymes have a higher risk for some types of cancer.

Sources

Purines are found in high concentration in meat and meat products, especially internal organs such as liver and kidney. In general, plant-based diets are low in purines.[6] Examples of high-purine sources include: sweetbreads, anchovies, sardines, liver, beef kidneys, brains, meat extracts (e.g., Oxo, Bovril), herring, mackerel, scallops, game meats, beer (from the yeast) and gravy.

A moderate amount of purine is also contained in beef, pork, poultry, other fish and seafood, asparagus, cauliflower, spinach, mushrooms, green peas, lentils, dried peas, beans, oatmeal, wheat bran, wheat germ, and hawthorn.[7]

Higher levels of meat and seafood consumption are associated with an increased risk of gout, whereas a higher level of consumption of dairy products is associated with a decreased risk. Moderate intake of purine-rich vegetables or protein is not associated with an increased risk of gout.[8]

Was this supposed to be in response to me? Gout is due to crystallization of the urate within the joints - nothing to do with the fact that it's an acid. Again, the blood buffers everything which means the pH generally doesn't change very much, which is what is being blamed for the cancer causing effects (and to be honest, I'm highly skeptical of this acidic environment leading to cancer growth thing as vitro and vivo environments are very different).

So yeah, you won't get any argument from me that eating meats increases your chances of getting gout, but you'd still need a study showing that people with high urate levels have lower pHs to get even near to my point.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:51 pm UTC
by stoppedcaring
Spambot5546 wrote:I think it's more an attempt to seize on the word "plan" and ignore the fact that fad diet has a definition that runs contradictory to how I described a planned diet.

Sorry, didn't mean to conflate. Obviously there is a huge difference between a properly planned diet and the "planning" that goes into a fad diet. I'm saying that even the suboptimal planning that goes into a fad diet can result in more consistency and even occasionally more balance than the former see-food diet of someone who would get hooked on a fad diet, which explains why many such individuals see rapid short-term weight loss and other short-term results, even apart from selection bias and so forth.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:54 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
Spambot5546 wrote:I think it's more an attempt to seize on the word "plan" and ignore the fact that fad diet has a definition that runs contradictory to how I described a planned diet.

No True Scotsman it is, then.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:00 pm UTC
by Spambot5546
If "do what People Magazine says with know knowledge of how it affects my body and health" qualifies as planning then yeah, totally. The key aspect of having an understanding of the nutritional impact is the key thing lacking from pretty much all fad diets. So sure, a person on Atkins may "plan" to not put their hamburger on a bun, but they're not practicing anything I would call a planned diet. Would it help if I called it something else? "Informed and Disciplined Approach to Nutrition", or something like that? Would that make the concept more palatable to you?

Edit: It appears I came of snippy. Apologies. I was going for good old fashioned snark. :-)

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:08 pm UTC
by stoppedcaring
Goodness, no need to get snippy.

I'll eschew the term "planned" in favor of "consistent", if that will avoid confusion.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:53 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
Spambot5546 wrote:If "do what People Magazine says with know knowledge of how it affects my body and health" qualifies as planning then yeah, totally. The key aspect of having an understanding of the nutritional impact is the key thing lacking from pretty much all fad diets. So sure, a person on Atkins may "plan" to not put their hamburger on a bun, but they're not practicing anything I would call a planned diet. Would it help if I called it something else? "Informed and Disciplined Approach to Nutrition", or something like that? Would that make the concept more palatable to you?
The concept is fine. The issue was with your insistence that the word "plan" didn't mean what everyone else normally takes it to mean. (And yes, I was seizing on the word "plan", because that's the word you contrasted when you said, "Well a fad diet isn't the same thing as a planned diet.")

There is no disagreement in this thread with the fact that fad diets are not well-informed and based on the latest nutritional research.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 12:36 pm UTC
by PM 2Ring
Angua wrote:
PM 2Ring wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid

[...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purine

Was this supposed to be in response to me? Gout is due to crystallization of the urate within the joints - nothing to do with the fact that it's an acid. Again, the blood buffers everything which means the pH generally doesn't change very much, which is what is being blamed for the cancer causing effects (and to be honest, I'm highly skeptical of this acidic environment leading to cancer growth thing as vitro and vivo environments are very different).

So yeah, you won't get any argument from me that eating meats increases your chances of getting gout, but you'd still need a study showing that people with high urate levels have lower pHs to get even near to my point.


No, it was not in response to you, Angua. It was to inform Xilmi (and anyone else who wasn't aware of it) that, yes, excess meat consumption can cause problems due to uric acid, but as you say, that's (mostly) due to crystallization of urates in joints (or kidneys), not merely because uric acid is an acid.

Various articles (from apparently reputable sources) claim that plant-derived purines aren't as bad for people with uric acid problems as meat-derived purines, but they don't explain why. Is it just a matter of the total purines level, or their concentration per serving, or is it perhaps that other compounds in the foods somehow modify the metabolic pathways? I'm assuming that given equal total protein amounts from meats vs from plants there'd be roughly equal amounts of purines. But I Am Not A Biologist.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 1:12 pm UTC
by Izawwlgood
PM 2Ring wrote:Various articles (from apparently reputable sources) claim that plant-derived purines aren't as bad for people with uric acid problems as meat-derived purines, but they don't explain why. Is it just a matter of the total purines level, or their concentration per serving, or is it perhaps that other compounds in the foods somehow modify the metabolic pathways? I'm assuming that given equal total protein amounts from meats vs from plants there'd be roughly equal amounts of purines. But I Am Not A Biologist.
Because plants are like, healthier, man.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 3:56 pm UTC
by Xilmi
JudeMorrigan wrote:Putting aside everything else in your post, do you have a legitimate citation for the average protein consumption in the US being that high?

Well, I have some citation, but I'm clearly not able to verify its legitimation. Especially since I don't even live in the US. I just heard stories of people who've been there and said: "I've never seen so many fat people. There was this woman who came out of the grocery-store. She was riding one of these little [...] and then he told me not to bring it back because it would cost someones job!"

Anyways, here's the citation:

"Humans need about 40 grams of protein daily, but the average American diet contains about 200 grams of protein a day.1 History shows that the richer a civilization becomes, the more meat they eat, the more acidic they become and ultimately, the sicker they get. Plato mentions this in ancient Greece civilization." This was in the link I posted in my last post.

When looking at just those three sentences, I have to agree, that this is some seriously flawed "science" due to the lack of studies, statistics and a verification that is done by claiming someone else mentioned that earlier. If the rest of it is the same caliber, then the source is not very usefull other than providing some ideas what someone could actually consider to do real research on.

Nevertheless: Pseudoscience is clearly better than no science since it at least gives some food for thought.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:06 pm UTC
by SU3SU2U1
Nevertheless: Pseudoscience is clearly better than no science since it at least gives some food for thought.


No, thats not how this works. Psuedoscience is wrong, and in the case of your 200 g of avg protein (you'd have to eat 2000 calories OF JUST STEAK to get that high), its simply made up on the spot. You don't get to advocate using lies just because someone else posted them.

You have a serious credibility problem in this thread- you are consistently relying on sources that have no idea what they are talking about (eating excess protein won't acidify your blood- your kidneys will just make more bicarb. Your body has feedback loops that regulate it, etc). You need to learn to differentiate credible sources from bs.

Also, if they don't pay some attention, its very easy for vegans to consume way less than 40g of protein a day. Consider my diet yesterday:

Breakfast- bowl of cream of wheat with fruit. Maybe 3g of protein total

lunch mixed green salad, with fruit, a citrus vinegaratte and some chopped almonds- maybe 10g of protein because of the almonds.

dinner- couscous salad, with asparagus and root vegetables- maybe 5g of protein.

Now, I get plenty of protein most days. If I had paid attention, and swapped the couscous for quinoa, maybe thrown more nuts into the salad, etc I could have pushed it up quite a bit, and would have had no problem hitting 40g. But vegans DO need to pay attention. (full disclosure, I'm not a vegan, I just eat that way on days when I shop at the farmer's market)

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:08 pm UTC
by Spambot5546
This might be just a philosophical disagreement, but I'd say that false information is far worse than no information. See: the evolution/creationism debate in the US.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:12 pm UTC
by Whizbang
200 grams of protein is a lot. When I was tracking these things a couple of years ago, I was getting about 75grams a day, and I considered myself a heavy meat heater. Like said above, weightlifters are recommended to get more, 1 gram per pound of lean mass. When I aimed for this, I had a full chicken breast at least a couple of times a day and STILL needed to take a protein supplement. I eventually got tired of all that and found a few sources that said maybe that target was overkill, and so I cut back to just chicken and other meats for a while. Seriously, eating 200 grams of protein every day is a chore. And if you are eating that much protein, you probably don't have much room for things like bread and cake and ice cream and french fries, which seems to be the larger portion of most American diets. The typical diet for an American is probably pretty high carb[Citation Needed]. At 60% carbs, 25% protein, and 15% fat (which is very low fat; you could probably swap protein and fat around for a typical American diet), 200 grams of protein means a MASSIVE amount of carbs, which I don't think the average American could eat, or anyone really, on a daily basis.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:13 pm UTC
by stoppedcaring
Spambot5546 wrote:This might be just a philosophical disagreement, but I'd say that false information is far worse than no information. See: the evolution/creationism debate in the US.

Absolutely. False information inoculates its audience against accurate information.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:13 pm UTC
by Xilmi
stoppedcaring wrote:Absolutely. False information inoculates its audience against accurate information.

Seems to heavily depend on the audience in question then.
Appears that in this case it made the audience recognize the false information, give the correct information instead and thus allow the provider of the false information to get it right next time aswell.

The point where it might become dangerous more likely is when a "believed-to-be-creadible"-source spreads the false information and not a "believed-to-quote-pseudoscience-anyways"-source. ^^

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:21 pm UTC
by Spambot5546
There's an old joke that if you want to learn something on the internet you don't ask the question, you post the wrong answer and wait for someone to tell you why you're wrong.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:41 am UTC
by elasto
That doesn't sound like a joke, that sounds like deep wisdom and understanding of human nature.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:25 am UTC
by el matematico
The sources that say that a bad diet acidifies the blood, which in turn causes sickness, probably advocate pseudocientific alkaline diets. http://www.skepdic.com/alkalinediet.html

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:39 am UTC
by p1t1o
If only the body had some way to regulate its own pH eh?

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:16 pm UTC
by oxoiron
Reminds me of
Abe Simpson wrote:Can't get a good sarsaparilla like this back in Springfield. It angries up the blood.
which I believe was inspired by
Satchel Paige wrote:Avoid fried meats which angry up the blood.

Man, do I love me some Satchel Paige!



And some Abe Simpson.

Re: 1338 changed my life! (veganism)

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:59 pm UTC
by Izawwlgood