List of All Laws of Nature

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List of All Laws of Nature

Postby jewish_scientist » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:52 pm UTC

When you really think about it, the only laws that we have to follow are the laws of nature, and the best . When people attempt to break them, bad things tend to happen; so I think it would be a good idea to get a list of them all together. Here is a few that I could think of off the top of my head.

1: Newton's First Law of Motion a.k.a. The Law of Inertia = A body in motion will stay in motion, and a body at rest will stay at rest, unless they are acted upon by an unbalanced force.

2: Newton's Second Law of Motion = The force acting on a body is equal to the product of its mass, and its acceleration.

3: Newton's Third Law of Motion = Every action is associated with a reaction of equal magnitude, and opposite direction.

4: Combined Gas Law = The volume of a gas sample changes inversely with its pressure and directly with its absolute temperature.*
4.1: Boyle's Law = If the temperature of a gas is kept constant, the volume of the gas will vary inversely to its pressure.*
4.2: Charles' Law = If the pressure of a gas is kept constant, the volume of the gas will vary directly with its absolute temperature.*
4.3: Gay-Lussac's Law = If the volume of a gas is kept constant, the pressure of the gas will vary directly with its absolute temperature.


*From http://www.chem.wisc.edu/deptfiles/genc ... /tx95.html
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby SDK » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:21 pm UTC

The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby BlackSails » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:21 pm UTC

I have no idea why you have the gas laws in there. Those are ideal gas approximations. If you want actual laws for that sort of thing, just write down thermodynamics

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby doogly » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:23 pm UTC

Or stat mech. Thermo is a debasement of human dignity / chemistry.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:20 pm UTC

SDK wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_science

?

I did not know that article existed. I feel like an idiot now. *looks over wikipedia article* That list is lacking a lot. Just looking at the table of contents, I notice that there is not a section on the laws of biology, or the laws of economics.

BlackSails wrote:I have no idea why you have the gas laws in there. Those are ideal gas approximations. If you want actual laws for that sort of thing, just write down thermodynamics

I consider approximation as laws, because they are true in ideal circumstances (atoms are points that do not incinerate with forces, and all collisions are perfectly elastic). Also, if we did not include approximations, then someone could argue that only the laws of physics can go on the list.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:24 pm UTC

Just looking at the table of contents, I notice that there is not a section on the laws of biology, or the laws of economics.

Or football, even!
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby BlackSails » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:55 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
BlackSails wrote:I have no idea why you have the gas laws in there. Those are ideal gas approximations. If you want actual laws for that sort of thing, just write down thermodynamics

I consider approximation as laws, because they are true in ideal circumstances (atoms are points that do not incinerate with forces, and all collisions are perfectly elastic). Also, if we did not include approximations, then someone could argue that only the laws of physics can go on the list.


Collisionless gasses wouldnt be ideal for me, I would die

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:04 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:Or football, even!
Which code?

(For me, it'd be no more than eleven players per team on the field, with a limited number of substitution possibilities, only one of whom is allowed to use their hands during normal play, and several more details. Others might agree with the number but not about the substitutions or the restricted use of the hands, others might disagree with the number (5, 4-7, 13, 15, another 15, 18, 'an entire village') and other details, including size and shape of the field.)

OTOH, "Laws Of Economics" are often only "theories". In the entirely the opposite the way that scientific 'theories' are actually fully acceptable 'laws'. (Both are accepted as quite possibly being later overturnable, but one is already more speculative.) I'd say that Biological Laws attempt the rigour of Physical Laws but with an uncertainty approaching that of Economics. (Watch me having annoyed at least two groups of people, with that statement! :P )


Ultimately, though, the 'physical laws' are likely just our best interpretation of any actual GUT/TOE that ultimately rules the universe(s?), and we already know that Newton's laws are liable to be modified by issues raised by Lorentz/Einstein/etc in certain conditions (mainly for the 2nd), and Einstein's oeuvre (plus what remains of Newton..? Possibly...) gets severely challenged in a different set of circumstances yet again...

So remember that you're necessarily constraining your scenario, for any given Law, even if you don't appreciate it at the time. (But remember that constraining your scenario too much lets you give the likes of Phlogiston Theory the credence that it (probably?) doesn't deserve...)

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:25 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:
Just looking at the table of contents, I notice that there is not a section on the laws of biology, or the laws of economics.

Or football, even!

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:37 pm UTC

Aw, that feels nice, I like you, too. = ]

There's just something terribly provincial about thinking of laws of biology and especially economics as laws of the universe comparable with those of physics. It's not a purity thing and it's definitely not a betterness thing or a matter of degrees of scientific rigor or predictability. Economics is a game that humans play....
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby doogly » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:40 pm UTC

Yeah, physicists and mathematicians can be trained out of their natural chauvinism by far less blunt and dim methods than equivocation.

The diversity in laws of football really is quite interesting too.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:55 pm UTC

I'm not entirely convinced I'm equivocating, but I'm also not entirely sure that's what you meant (alternately, if you meant something else, I'd acknowledge I'm running the risk.) Still, I'd have to admit in fairness that I don't find economics or any variation of football terribly interesting myself, in part because they don't tell me anything about anything that isn't an entirely arbitrary conventional system.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:10 pm UTC

I think you can make strong arguments for economics being a system with pressures and responses that mimic natural systems (energy flow through an ecosystem, money flow through a stock exchange), so I wouldn't call economics entirely arbitrary.

Football though. That's just a random number generator with a lot of commercial breaks.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby doogly » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:16 pm UTC

Oh no Copper Bezel, I was agreeing with you completely. I think the argument that laws of physics and laws of chemistry should be considered "the same kind of thing" is the equivocating.

Economics can provide some behavioral laws. But so can football. People behave all sorts of ways. Bees have behavioral laws and economics too. All or none of these should be on that wikipedia page.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby aph » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:25 pm UTC

I tend to think sciences other then physics and chemistry are just so very young and still need to discover the laws of phenomena they are studying. Biology does have natural selection as a sort of law, or a principle or whatever.

There is just too much statistics everywhere and that is a good clue we don't know much about the stuff we're studying. If we knew, we wouldn't need to average out the unknowns.

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby doogly » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:30 pm UTC

Statistics is glorious.

But, looking even just within physics, I wouldn't consider Navier Stokes to belong on the same list as Hamilton's Equations.

If you're not trying to develop the minimal list, then you can put them both. And football as well. Football isn't apart from nature, it's very much happening!
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:32 pm UTC

aph wrote:I tend to think sciences other then physics and chemistry are just so very young and still need to discover the laws of phenomena they are studying. Biology does have natural selection as a sort of law, or a principle or whatever.
I don't agree. Modern physics is in some respects about the same age as modern biology.

The point being modern physics, chemistry, and biology alike all rely on newer instrumentation that has only been possible relatively recently. Plasma physics is way younger than, say, gross anatomy. Polymer chemistry is way younger than the laws of motion. Genome sequencing is younger than phylogenetic systemics. Your position seems a bit like saying 'it's just a theory'.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:07 pm UTC

doogly wrote:Statistics is glorious.

But, looking even just within physics, I wouldn't consider Navier Stokes to belong on the same list as Hamilton's Equations.

If you're not trying to develop the minimal list, then you can put them both. And football as well. Football isn't apart from nature, it's very much happening!

A very good point. = ]
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby aph » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:28 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I don't agree. Modern physics is in some respects about the same age as modern biology.

Depends on where we put the arbitrary time posts, sure.

Point being - I'm trying to find 'justification' for the lack of physics-type hard laws in biology, as well as psychology, sociology, economics and so on. The longer people are being occupied by a subject, the more they might find, and be more accurate in describing the phenomena they are studying. Sounds sorta ok to compare them by age.

Theory of evolution is not "just a theory", there is plenty experimental evidence, it is really the closest thing to a hard law in biology, but say, macroeconomics or evolutionary psychology consist in whole of 'just theories' that were not proven in experiment. There are whole fields built on 'just theories' with some correlation research support. (in physics, there is only the small field of string theory :D ).

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby aph » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:30 pm UTC

doogly wrote:If you're not trying to develop the minimal list, then you can put them both.

If I was, then we could say biology reduces to chemistry, chemistry to physics, and just list fundamentals of physics?

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby doogly » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:39 pm UTC

Yeah, exactly. You're not going to find "physics type" laws in other fields.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:06 pm UTC

doogly wrote:Yeah, exactly. You're not going to find "physics type" laws in other fields.

At each outer level of abstraction you are forced to admit that you can't so pithily ascribe emergent behaviours as a direct consequence of the more 'fundamental' subject, and have to deal with 'smudged' laws that hold more true statistically than in individual circumstances.

1) Chemistry is statistically smudged physics.
2) Biology is statistically smudged chemistry.
3..?) :?:
n) Economics is statistically smudged sociology.

Ultimately, just as the Enthalpy Of Reaction in chemistry can be traced to the physical and electronic behaviours of atoms and clusters of atoms and Allen's Rule in biology can be ascribed to the physical qualities of matter and heat-flow, the "Law Of Supply And Demand" can likely be linked to some generalised "Law of conservation of <foo>" (in this case possibly of a function value derived from price, surplus, demand and flow) with the addition of some sort of "Law of elasticity".

But, of course, doubtless also there's: 0) Physics is smudged <reality?>

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:44 pm UTC

And smudged specifically to approximate interactions within a particular ""regime"" or set of ""inputs"". Out of all of the possible configurations, you're studying this specific one. There are a lot of historical accidents in biology.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby aph » Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:34 pm UTC

Smudginess is in the eyes of the theorists. :D

Sure, there's true randomness that you need to average out. There are also unknown laws and untrue assumptions and things of that nature (as there will always be in science). For example, we know vastly more about the motion of matter trough space then about the movements of organisms. That is why we can make blobs of metal that leave Earth's atmosphere, but we are still a bit unsure on how to make blobs of metal walk on two legs on the ground. Though, we are getting there, and in the process, we are sending some old debates about movement to their proper place in history.

One way of looking at that is that physics will expand even more to life sciences.

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:41 pm UTC

aph wrote:One way of looking at that is that physics will expand even more to life sciences.
Will?
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby aph » Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:52 pm UTC

Could? Might?

Yeah. Already, the 'hard' parts of biology are just 'expanded' chemistry and physics (there is probably a nicer way of formulating that..). The soft parts are closer to psychology and social sciences.

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:12 pm UTC

Sigh.

Maybe start here?

aph wrote:Yeah. Already, the 'hard' parts of biology are just 'expanded' chemistry and physics (there is probably a nicer way of formulating that..). The soft parts are closer to psychology and social sciences.
Not really, but, ok.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Twistar » Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:15 pm UTC

I don't think there's much debate to be had here.
Reductionism
Physics is most reductionistic of the sciences. Economics reduces to physics because economics is some macroscopic thing, but if you had a look at every company, and every human working in that company, and the various behavioral psychologies influencing that person you could predict what is going to happen. What I just said isn't a very useful statement, in fact I'll be the first to admit that it is ABSOLUTELY useless, however the statement remains true that you can in some sense "reduce" economics to physics.

So yes, if you want a minimal list of laws of nature then you can just write down a few physics equations and you'll be good. However, that list won't be useful. This line of reasoning is basically entirely summed up in this last two sentences and I really don't think there's much more to be said.

Now, if you DON'T want a minimal list then someone needs to specify what the features of this list should be. If you just want a smattering of a bunch of laws just find a bunch of introductory textbooks to whatever subjects sound interesting to you and copy all of the bolded/boxed equations over.

By the way, it would be entirely irresponsible to try to have this conversation without this reference.

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:18 pm UTC

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Twistar » Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:22 pm UTC



You need both of them haha. But anyways, I'm trying not to do what's going on in the "physicists" comic. I'm not trying to say you can model <complicated system> as a <simple object>. I'm saying that technically if you take into account the 10^40 degrees of freedom in the global economy, like, basically the position momenta and spin and whatever other quantum numbers of all atoms that make up all the people and other related things in the world you could predict what was going to happen with the economy. So in this useless sense of the word, you can reduce economics or any other field to the laws of physics.

Like I said above:
-If you want a minimal list go with the laws of physics.
-If you want something useful you need to specify what features you're going for in the list.

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby aph » Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:36 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Sigh.
Maybe start here?

Oh. I thought you had a normal question about the future of 'expansion'. Maybe read the second half of "will expand even more"?

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby jewish_scientist » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:03 pm UTC

Twistar wrote:-If you want something useful you need to specify what features you're going for in the list.


My only criteria is that the law cannot be broken. In the middle of a football match, I could just decide to punch another player even though there are rules prohibiting it. In contrast, I can never break Klieber's Law.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby p1t1o » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:34 pm UTC

Ooh, question:

Is there a name for the rule/law/theory/motto that we refer to when we say "Its impossible to reach the speed of light." or words to that effect?

Its always mentioned and referenced in all sorts of subjects and at all levels, is there a name for it?

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Copper Bezel » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:49 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
Twistar wrote:-If you want something useful you need to specify what features you're going for in the list.


My only criteria is that the law cannot be broken. In the middle of a football match, I could just decide to punch another player even though there are rules prohibiting it. In contrast, I can never break Klieber's Law.

That's not really the point - there would be statistically predictable laws defining the effects of those rules on the play of the game. That is, the "rules" are not "laws", but there would be discoverable laws of (your preferred) football, and I do imagine some of them are quite likely to be formalized and known somewhere.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby doogly » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:49 pm UTC

it's just Special Relativity.
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Twistar » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:00 pm UTC

I dunno. The whole idea of laws just seems like an outdated, outmoded way of thinking about science. There's something very 18th century about it.What does it mean that we have a law that "can't be broken". In society we have developed and codified laws which "can't be broken" without facing consequences. Laws of nature shouldn't be thought of the same way though. When we think about science and nature instead of laws we have models. We are trying to DESCRIBE what is happening, not PRESCRIBE what should happen.

We've seen scientific models be wrong many times. Does this mean nature broke the laws we wrote for it? That's just such a silly way to think about it.

Does Moore's law count? What about Eroom's law or Murphey's law? Do laws in the social sciences count?

Anyways to actually address your desire for a list of laws. If it is going to include something as fundamental as Newton's law as well as something as emergent as Klieber's law and the gas laws then it is going to be a very very long list indeed, and you would be better off just getting a book shelf and filling it up with a bunch of textbooks from different fields and learning about all of them rather than trying to shortcut it and just make some short list.

Alternatively, if your goal in making this thread is to just get a list of laws that you think the forumgoers here find interesting then you should ask for that.

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby doogly » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:16 pm UTC

Yes, but it was such a charming century, wasn't it?
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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby brenok » Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:32 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
Twistar wrote:-If you want something useful you need to specify what features you're going for in the list.


My only criteria is that the law cannot be broken. In the middle of a football match, I could just decide to punch another player even though there are rules prohibiting it. In contrast, I can never break Klieber's Law.

Pretty much all the laws you listed on your first post are broken all the time. Plus, you put too little faith in genetic engineering. Not to mention alien species, which by even the most pessimistic estimates there would be millions of.

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:31 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:In contrast, I can never break Klieber's Law.


Yes you can, at least as far as that article says. "The first accurate measurements of body mass versus metabolic rate in 1932 shows that the metabolic rate R for all organisms follows exactly the 3/4 power-law of the body mass."

"...follows exactly..."? Then how come there's a close but not exact positioning of those datum points over the trend-line. It's clearly a definite trend. But there are already indicated non-exact outliers, in whatever direction you'd care to describe them as drifting (horizontally, vertically, perpendicularly away from the trend-line in this linearly-skewed representation). Ok, they're minimally scattered, in that data sample (without even asking what data points were not considered), but it's not exact.

(And I'm wondering where various extremophiles (hot- and cold-adapted types, or else surviving in other busy/sluggish chemical environs, like tardigrades) appear on such a graph.)

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Re: List of All Laws of Nature

Postby aph » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:29 pm UTC

@op
A similar goal might be to write out all unknown laws of nature. We have a very good model of how laws of chemistry emerge from the atomic structure of elements. We know (have a good model) that ideal gas laws emerge from atoms jiggling about and hitting container surfaces. We know how properties such as hardness of materials emerge from their structure. But say, we don't know how gravity emerges from underlying structures - still trying to connect quantum mechanics and general relativity. We don't know how life emerges from its structure - we have good ideas and indications, but we'll are still missing true artificial life and (at least) simulated abiogenesis.


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