To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

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Sableagle
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To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby Sableagle » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:05 am UTC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydzcvlj ... 5907903913

So... how much do we need to prepare beef to completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?


I'm going with "Don't eat it," but maybe someone here knows better.
I know cooking makes it worse and I found a study that showed it could accumulate in thigh muscles so only eating good-quality cuts doesn't guarantee you won't get it.
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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby p1t1o » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:40 pm UTC

Link appears to be "The Flash vs. Tornado because science"

On-topic: well im not sure it is possible to 100.00% "guarantee" protection against *any* infection. Even living in a clean room living on sterilised, artificial nutritionis not a total, philosophical-grade proof against infection.

Even if you dont eat beef, you might touch something that has touched beef. Or eat an animal that has eaten beef. Or many other forms of very-low probability vector.


So no, I dont think absolute-total prevention is possible, but I also dont think that that is a significant datapoint in almost any context.

You can say though, that if you accept that eating beef routinely has a very small but non-zero probability of giving you BSE, then cutting beef out of your diet will reduce it to an even smaller, but still non-zero, probability.

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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby Sableagle » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:44 pm UTC

p1t1o wrote:Link appears to be "The Flash vs. Tornado because science"
Link should be to a specific comment under that video.

p1t1o wrote:You can say though, that if you accept that eating beef routinely has a very small but non-zero probability of giving you BSE, then cutting beef out of your diet will reduce it to an even smaller, but still non-zero, probability.
Good line. If the conversation reactivates, I shall use it. Thank you.
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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby freezeblade » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:57 pm UTC

Don't feed cows to other cows? I mean, the disease spreads because we're feeding animals tainted meat from other animals, seems to me if you only eat beef that is 100% grass fed*...there's no chance of infection, no?

I know that some "grass fed beef" is actually just grass fed for the latter portion of their life, with standard feed being the majority. It's all about knowing your sources I suppose.
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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby pogrmman » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:54 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:Don't feed cows to other cows? I mean, the disease spreads because we're feeding animals tainted meat from other animals, seems to me if you only eat beef that is 100% grass fed*...there's no chance of infection, no?

I know that some "grass fed beef" is actually just grass fed for the latter portion of their life, with standard feed being the majority. It's all about knowing your sources I suppose.

I don’t know about mad cow disease, but two other prion diseases (scrapie and chronic wasting) seem to be able to spread by stuff like feces and can persist in the soil. So even grass fed beef isn’t a perfect avoidance mechanism.

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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:16 am UTC

There is also a small but nonzero probability of prions arising spontaneously on a cow without infection, for instance due to a de novo mutation. Any real solution must focus on making the probability of infection lower, not making it zero.

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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby pogrmman » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:02 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:There is also a small but nonzero probability of prions arising spontaneously on a cow without infection, for instance due to a de novo mutation. Any real solution must focus on making the probability of infection lower, not making it zero.

I only mention it because if BSE is able to persist in the environment (which it can), that seemingly makes recurrence likely. Historically, scrapie can and does recur years after all the infected animals are destroyed. I’m not saying that stopping feeding cows to cows is a bad thing, but that wee need to be cautious.

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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:58 am UTC

Why was Mad Cow such a big player in the news, anyway? It is an extraordinarily rare disease.

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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby p1t1o » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:59 am UTC

pogrmman wrote:I only mention it because if BSE is able to persist in the environment (which it can)


Along with hundreds of other deadly diseases, many of which are live, in your mouth, right this instant.

And BSE is hardly the only food borne, cooking resistant, deadly pathogen/substance that sometimes gets found in food.

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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby pogrmman » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:54 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:Why was Mad Cow such a big player in the news, anyway? It is an extraordinarily rare disease.

I guess because it’s scary, incurable, known to transmit to people via food, known to have entered the human food supply, and it’s likely that at least few hundred people contracted it.

p1t1o wrote:Along with hundreds of other deadly diseases, many of which are live, in your mouth, right this instant.

But the topic of this thread is trying to prevent BSE, which is why it’s relevant. It’ll be hard to completely prevent recurrences of the disease if there is soil contaminated with it. Fortunately, IIRC, BSE isn’t known to shed like scrapie is, which mitigates this some.

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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:18 pm UTC

The prions are more resilient than anything you'd recognize as beef. To simplify, beef is made mostly of protein and is no longer beef after you destroy a major fraction of the proteins. Prions are also proteins, and to destroy an infectious agent you want to destroy basically all of the proteins.

Nothing resembling normal cooking will have a significant affect on prions.

Normal cremation will have a significant affect, but not a complete affect.

Through procedures typically come down to "leave no two carbon atoms connected".
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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby Angua » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:02 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:Why was Mad Cow such a big player in the news, anyway? It is an extraordinarily rare disease.

Because it's a pretty nasty way to die. Also, it took a long time to identify the cause.
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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:57 pm UTC

pogrmman wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:Why was Mad Cow such a big player in the news, anyway? It is an extraordinarily rare disease.

I guess because it’s scary, incurable, known to transmit to people via food, known to have entered the human food supply, and it’s likely that at least few hundred people contracted it.

But there are hundreds of such diseases.

Angua wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:Why was Mad Cow such a big player in the news, anyway? It is an extraordinarily rare disease.

Because it's a pretty nasty way to die. Also, it took a long time to identify the cause.

I agree, the symptoms are pretty violent, which is why ebola was such a thing. But BSE? It seems pretty overblown.

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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby Sableagle » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:16 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
pogrmman wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:Why was Mad Cow such a big player in the news, anyway? It is an extraordinarily rare disease.

I guess because it’s scary, incurable, known to transmit to people via food, known to have entered the human food supply, and it’s likely that at least few hundred people contracted it.

But there are hundreds of such diseases.

Angua wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:Why was Mad Cow such a big player in the news, anyway? It is an extraordinarily rare disease.

Because it's a pretty nasty way to die. Also, it took a long time to identify the cause.

I agree, the symptoms are pretty violent, which is why ebola was such a thing. But BSE? It seems pretty overblown.

We didn't know at the time how big a deal it was going to be.

You just had seven people die horribly from slow brain disintegration. Turns out it's caused by eating cheap beef products. Everyone who's eaten a takeaway burger in the last ten years is at risk of dying the same way at some point in the next ten years. No, we can't help you. Stay calm and carry on.
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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby ijuin » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:35 pm UTC

Yes, the inability to track the beef supply in sufficient detail to adequately narrow down who had consumed the infected beef and who had not made for a bad case of “we can’t tell you if you have been exposed or not”.

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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:15 pm UTC

It's like knowing what the Infinity Gauntlet does, and knowing it's about to be used. Vastly better odds, but if you are "one of the ones" you don't even get that (presumably) sweetly painless oblivion, but lose a grip on your mental and physical health.

Others see you 'go' , but very slowly, and those who don't know why and what is happening maybe don't get it as bad as those who know that they might still have drawn their own short-straw, or will do within a few/several years.

And you can't even blame one person who wanted this to happen (however much impartially), it happened just because of ultimately bad decisions.

I mean, we're all going to die of something, one presumes, but there are better ways…

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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby Eebster the Great » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:28 am UTC

The Infinity Gauntlet killed half of all people, which is not much like BSE. It's more like what it is--a rare disease. You are hundreds of times more likely to get regular Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease than Mad Cow. I get that, in the context of the media about the disease, it seems very scary. And even if it is rare, obviously you have to eliminate it and take steps to prevent outbreaks in the future. They are even doing that now with romaine lettuce in the U.S. even though there aren't really very many E. coli infections associated with the lettuce, and iirc no deaths. It's the right thing to do. But at the same time, the reputation of Mad Cow still seems massively overblown.

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Re: To completely prevent any form of Mad Cow Disease?

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:03 pm UTC

"Vastly better odds", I said. But balanced (as if such things could be balanced!) by the nature of the end. Hey, it was an analogy, and analogies are never perfect, or it would be an actual instance instead.


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