Negative Quantum Space-Time

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elasto
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby elasto » Sat May 25, 2019 2:11 am UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:The math says the physical object remains 3D when in superposition. So the only avenue left is spacetime. In math, it is waves, in reality, it has lost a dimension. Something that that has lost a dimension is crazy.


So it's superposition that you really take issue with, not uncertainty? Because they are very different things.

I don't really know what you mean by the phrase 'in reality it has lost a dimension' though. Matter is always wave-like, it never loses anything except in a statistical sense (which is the reason the macroscopic world doesn't seem probabilistic)

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In order to propose a new theory, it ought to include some testable predictions. What does your theory predict different to current theories?

For example, QFT began in 1948 as an attempt to explain the anomalous magnetic dipole moment of the electron in a mathematically consistent way. It succeeded to 10 significant digits.

For half a century it predicted the existence of the Higgs Boson, with that finally being discovered at the LHC in 2012.

It's all very well saying 'Why fight it? Let's get science to the next era', but it's doing pretty damn well in the current era. In fact the biggest disappointment of the LHC has been just how damn well the Standard Model held up...

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat May 25, 2019 3:16 am UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:It means the new era can begin.

But like, how? How do we apply this great discovery of yours that things get stuck outside reality or whatever?

Let me guess, you're just the ideas guy, and you'll leave the mathematical details to the nerds, right? First we start the new era, then we figure out wtf you are even talking about.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat May 25, 2019 4:42 am UTC

A wave of water in the ocean is a fully 3d object, no? But it can pass through two slits in a breaker and then interfere with itself...
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sat May 25, 2019 3:29 pm UTC

You twats act like you don't want to know why/how a particle can go into superposition. It's not meant to disprove anything established. It's testable by experiments that have already occurred. My hope is that we can somehow pervert the system with this knowledge.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sat May 25, 2019 4:04 pm UTC

This is also the reason they are not going to find quantum gravity.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby doogly » Sat May 25, 2019 5:48 pm UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:You twats act like you don't want to know why/how a particle can go into superposition.

Oh man no way, it's super cool how that works. It has nothing to do with missing dimensions.

Things functioning as if they exist in fewer than three dimensions of space are also super cool, and are different things. You get this in surface condensed matter physics all the time. There's a cute little write up here, https://www.physics.harvard.edu/uploads ... l_2015.pdf, but it's really not my area, I've just had lunch discussions about it with people who actually play in these surfaces. Cut some gold plated surfaces on an angle, hit it with electrons, that kind of business.
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sat May 25, 2019 6:12 pm UTC

This is talking about electrons having a lower dimension. This thread is about entire atoms going into superposition. I do think electrons having a lower dimension has something to do with how they can float around the nucleus ..not needing gravity.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat May 25, 2019 8:06 pm UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:This is talking about electrons having a lower dimension. This thread is about entire atoms going into superposition. I do think electrons having a lower dimension has something to do with how they can float around the nucleus ..not needing gravity.

If what you think does not conform to the results of experiments, then it is not true. For instance, electrons do produce a gravitational pull, as can be proved with sensitive gravitational experiments. After all, we can measure the gravitational force of some bodies to better than 50 ppm, whereas electrons account for about 270 ppm of the mass of a typical object. If the electrons did not contribute to gravitational mass, we would notice.

To be taken seriously, a new hypothesis must produce novel, testable predictions. A hypothesis that electrons had no gravitational mass could be tested as I mentioned above, and would fail the test, showing it was wrong. A hypothesis that virtual particle interactions give electrons a larger magnetic dipole moment than predicted by the Dirac equation can be tested by measuring it in a synchotron or a Penning trap. A hypothesis that the Earth is flat can be tested by observing distant objects along straight-line paths. And so on.

What new prediction does your hypothesis make that scientists can test?

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sat May 25, 2019 8:19 pm UTC

They get gravitational mass with observation. Observation grants quantum objects partial spacetime, when it's not being observed it's just math. Don't consider it a new theory then ..it's been here the whole time.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby doogly » Sat May 25, 2019 8:27 pm UTC

This looks like word salad. Can you formalize what you are talking about at all?
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sat May 25, 2019 8:52 pm UTC

Your pdf didn't shoot me down. It would have made national news if why/how a particle goes into superposition was solved.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat May 25, 2019 9:52 pm UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:Your pdf didn't shoot me down. It would have made national news if why/how a particle goes into superposition was solved.

Right, but just having an idea isn't "solving" anything. I can make stuff up that I believe explains lots of stuff. You are claiming the stuff you made up is actually true. We would like you to demonstrate that, rather than just repeatedly insult everyone who is skeptical.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sat May 25, 2019 10:04 pm UTC

I'd like to hear other plausible ideas that fit as well as mine.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby gmalivuk » Sat May 25, 2019 10:16 pm UTC

The Standard Model
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sat May 25, 2019 10:17 pm UTC

dude, come one, theory involving what matter is when it can only be described as math.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby gmalivuk » Sat May 25, 2019 10:20 pm UTC

Your "theory" doesn't even have the math going for it
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sat May 25, 2019 10:22 pm UTC

Set whatever equations you got to say unmeasured QM objects are devoid of spacetime.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby gmalivuk » Sat May 25, 2019 10:31 pm UTC

That sentence doesn't actually mean anything
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sat May 25, 2019 10:32 pm UTC

Then needing math for this theory doesn't mean anything.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat May 25, 2019 11:33 pm UTC

What is your "theory"? From what I can tell it consists of a bunch of undefined pseudoscientific phrases with no observable consequences.

Incidentally, it's not math that's the problem. Theories can make purely qualitative ptedictions, like the prediction that humans should have genes homologous with those that produce scales in fish. This is a non-obvious fact that was predicted by modern evolutionary theory but not observed until later. The point is that it made a prediction that could be tested. That's what makes the theory useful: it can predict facts we don't already know. Your "theory" makes no predictions at all and thus cannot actually help us do anything.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sat May 25, 2019 11:37 pm UTC

It simply adds to the Standard Model ...and answers the biggest question since the start of QM.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun May 26, 2019 12:07 am UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:It simply adds to the Standard Model ...and answers the biggest question since the start of QM.

Adding to a model is not a good thing. Models should include the bare minimum necessary to explain as much as they can. If your idea doesn't add any new phenomena to those the standard model does not explain, it is extraneous and should be shaved off by Occam's razor. If your idea is a way of understanding what we already know, then it is an interpretation, not a theory.

And in any case, you didn't answer my more important question: what even is your idea?

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sun May 26, 2019 12:12 am UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:unmeasured QM objects are devoid of spacetime.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby doogly » Sun May 26, 2019 2:23 am UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:
pittsburghjoe wrote:unmeasured QM objects are devoid of spacetime.

Ok, I think maybe you are approaching a thing here. Yes.

A quantum state ("object" to you?) lives in Hilbert space. This is different from our 3 dimensional configuration space. It generally has a lot more than 3 dimensions, not less. Observable operators can be localized in space. Are you familiar with the state and operator business in qm?
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sun May 26, 2019 2:34 am UTC

Hilbert space is an abstraction, I'm talking about the real deal.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun May 26, 2019 3:02 am UTC

What does "devoid of spacetime" mean? How can I test the idea that something is spacetimeless? What difference does it make?

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sun May 26, 2019 3:06 am UTC

You know how a quantum object can sometimes be only described as waves? The unobservable? It's missing a dimension to make it unobservable. Observation temporarily and partially gives it spacetime.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby doogly » Sun May 26, 2019 3:45 am UTC

Could you walk us through a calculation of the Lamb shift using your language for what is happening?
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sun May 26, 2019 4:38 am UTC

I'm having a hard time figuring out why you brought up the Lamb shift.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun May 26, 2019 4:52 am UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:You know how a quantum object can sometimes be only described as waves? The unobservable? It's missing a dimension to make it unobservable. Observation temporarily and partially gives it spacetime.

So? If true, how can I apply this knowledge? And how can I test it?

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sun May 26, 2019 5:00 am UTC

I just discovered this, so sorry that it isn't that useful yet. Maybe we can take advantaged of objects that are capable of going into superposition with this knowledge. You seem not to care that the dark side of QM has just had a light shined on it.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby Pfhorrest » Sun May 26, 2019 5:17 am UTC

I think I may have figure a little bit of sense out of what joe is claiming, not that that helps a lot.

An object which was truly only two-dimensional, having no depth, would occupy zero volume, and so would be unobservable. Something that was truly only three-dimensional, having no duration, would likewise exist for no time, and so be unobservable. I think joe's claim is that unobserved quantum states are somehow missing a dimension like that, which is why they are unobservable, and only get that dimension back when being observed, somehow.

Still a lot to explain there but I think I grasp a kernel of the idea he's trying to talk about at least.
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun May 26, 2019 5:50 am UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:I just discovered this, so sorry that it isn't that useful yet. Maybe we can take advantaged of objects that are capable of going into superposition with this knowledge. You seem not to care that the dark side of QM has just had a light shined on it.

The point is that just because you have an idea doesn't mean the idea is actually correct. If there is literally no possible way to test your idea, what makes you believe it to be true? Why should anyone believe you? Anyone can come up with a story for how the world works. That is not science.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby bentheimmigrant » Sun May 26, 2019 7:55 am UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:I just discovered this,

Perhaps we should start even earlier than the theory... What does "discovered" mean to you? It is generally reserved for something that has been found, proven, or observed, yes? You have had an idea, and decided it was a discovery. We are not seeing how you made that jump.
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby gmalivuk » Sun May 26, 2019 12:51 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I think I may have figure a little bit of sense out of what joe is claiming, not that that helps a lot.

An object which was truly only two-dimensional, having no depth, would occupy zero volume, and so would be unobservable. Something that was truly only three-dimensional, having no duration, would likewise exist for no time, and so be unobservable. I think joe's claim is that unobserved quantum states are somehow missing a dimension like that, which is why they are unobservable, and only get that dimension back when being observed, somehow.

Still a lot to explain there but I think I grasp a kernel of the idea he's trying to talk about at least.

Ah okay, that sort of makes sense. Not physically, but I get the idea now.

I'm still not sure why he's equating "unobservable" specifically with waves, though. We can observe the wavelike behavior of photons just fine.
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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sun May 26, 2019 3:30 pm UTC

When we zoom into a large object, those atoms bonded together are not going to display quantum weirdness. If we separated a single atom from that object, it is suddenly too small to inhibit spacetime. I knew it was losing a dimension of some type and originally assumed a 3D object was turning into 2D (something without depth is invisible to us) ..but then the math said it actually retains its 3D. It dawned on me that objects without spacetime are also invisible to us. I then looked at the uncertainty principle and realized that spacetime was involved in that to. If you have a better explanation for quantum weirdness, I'm all ears.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun May 26, 2019 3:50 pm UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:When we zoom into a large object, those atoms bonded together are not going to display quantum weirdness.

That is not correct. There are quantum effects at visible scales that cannot be explained classically, like the photoelectric effect. This isn't trivial stuff; it's how we make solar panels and LEDs. Rayleigh scattering is explained by quantum mechanics, which is to say, it explains why the sky is blue. The "weirdness" you insist upon is a mathematically inevitable and unsurprising consequence of the principles behind these effects. Once you accept what is inescapable from the known facts, quantum mechanics is no longer weird.

But a big, hot object will indeed never be observed to exist in a quantum superposition. Then again, neither will anything else

If we separated a single atom from that object, it is suddenly too small to inhibit spacetime.

Spacetime as it is generally understood is not porous. Nothing can slip out of it or be to small to be in it. I'm not even sure what this means. I can be too large for my bed, but I can't be too small for it. I will still fit. What makes the atoms escape space and time, and why can't they do that when chemically bound?

I knew it was losing a dimension of some type and originally assumed a 3D object was turning into 2D (something without depth is invisible to us) ..but then the math said it actually retains its 3D. It dawned on me that objects without spacetime are also invisible to us. I then looked at the uncertainty principle and realized that spacetime was involved in that to.

But you didn't "know" that, you just decided. There is a difference. You can't just read a bunch of pop sci summaries of laws you do not understand and conclude that you know better than the thousands of people who have spent their lives studying and developing them.

If you have a better explanation for quantum weirdness, I'm all ears.

As I said, you need to do more research. You don't even know what questions to ask. You claim you want an answer to "quantum weirdness" but can't even specify what weird quantum thing you want answering. The fact that physics is weird is not a license to speculate randomly with no evidence. There are actual reasons physicists use wavefunctions, but those reasons are completely different from what you think. The actual questions that puzzle physicists are why the strong interaction doesn't seem to violate CP-symmetry or why the measured energy of the vacuum is so small, not why there is "quantum weirdness."

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sun May 26, 2019 3:54 pm UTC

Well, aren't you a gem. Weirdness is when an atom can only be described as math.

Maybe you are so small you are floating above the bed.

What makes the atoms escape space and time, and why can't they do that when chemically bound?


observation/measurement, a certain number of chemically bounded atoms are anchored to spacetime.
Last edited by pittsburghjoe on Sun May 26, 2019 4:36 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby speising » Sun May 26, 2019 3:57 pm UTC

pittsburghjoe wrote:Well, aren't you gem. Weirdness is when an atom can only be described as math.

Can it ever be described differently?

Or alternatively, can anything be explained precisely without math?

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Re: Negative Quantum Space-Time

Postby pittsburghjoe » Sun May 26, 2019 3:58 pm UTC

the unobservable


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