argon fish tank

For the discussion of the sciences. Physics problems, chemistry equations, biology weirdness, it all goes here.

Moderators: gmalivuk, Moderators General, Prelates

Acegikmo
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:38 am UTC

argon fish tank

Postby Acegikmo » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:42 pm UTC

Image
my brain says something about argon, temperature and density means this won't work but my heart requires more evidence before giving up. Anyone care to explain the intricates of this little setup to me? will it work or not and why?

Ended
Posts: 1459
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:27 pm UTC
Location: The Tower of Flints. (Also known as: England.)

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Ended » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:11 pm UTC

I think the figure of specific gravity you're quoting must be for liquid or solid argon. E.g. here it says that the s.g. of gaseous argon is 1.38 (air=1) at 20C, 1atm, and for liquid argon 1.4 (water=1). So I guess it would work if your argon was liquid, but definitely not if it was gaseous. Awesome idea though.
Generally I try to make myself do things I instinctively avoid, in case they are awesome.
-dubsola

User avatar
evilbeanfiend
Posts: 2650
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:05 am UTC
Location: the old world

Re: argon fish tank

Postby evilbeanfiend » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:14 pm UTC

Ar is also soluble in water
in ur beanz makin u eveel

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Robin S » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:20 pm UTC

Water is transparent, too. Even if this could be made to work, would it really look that impressive?

I propose heavy ass-magnets as an alternative.
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

asad137
Posts: 424
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:58 am UTC
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: argon fish tank

Postby asad137 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:22 pm UTC

Of course, if you had liquid argon (87K), the bottom of the water section would be frozen, leaving a nice solid surface for the rest of the water. Of course, depending on the thermal environment, this may or may not be a equilibrium configuration.

Asad

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Robin S » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:15 pm UTC

I seriously doubt it would be an equilibrium anywhere people might want to have a fishtank. I also think it would kill the fish.
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

Kasperl
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:06 pm UTC

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Kasperl » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:21 pm UTC

There are quite a few gasses heavier than air, and some much so. But I can't recall any gas that's heavier than water.
Just another forum newbie, asking all the stupid questions again.

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Robin S » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:42 pm UTC

There aren't any. At room temperature and pressure, 1 mole of gas occupies around 24 litres, so in order to be more dense than water the gas would have to have a molecular mass of over 24 kilodaltons, which is the sort of value you'd expect for a protein molecule. The densest gas I know of, radon, is about a hundred times less dense than water.
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

User avatar
Macbi
Posts: 941
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:32 am UTC
Location: UKvia

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Macbi » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:11 pm UTC

Are there any liquids with a sufficiently low density to float on radon then?
    Indigo is a lie.
    Which idiot decided that websites can't go within 4cm of the edge of the screen?
    There should be a null word, for the question "Is anybody there?" and to see if microphones are on.

Token
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:07 pm UTC
Location: London

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Token » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:23 pm UTC

Robin S wrote:There aren't any. At room temperature and pressure, 1 mole of gas occupies around 24 litres, so in order to be more dense than water the gas would have to have a molecular mass of over 24 kilodaltons, which is the sort of value you'd expect for a protein molecule. The densest gas I know of, radon, is about a hundred times less dense than water.

So why not just fill the tank with gaseous protein?
All posts are works in progress. If I posted something within the last hour, chances are I'm still editing it.

User avatar
MotorToad
Really Repeatedly Redundantly Redundant
Posts: 1114
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:09 pm UTC
Location: Saint Joseph, CA
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby MotorToad » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:44 pm UTC

Utterly no way this'd work. A gas in liquid form would sit in a (heavily insulated) tank and evaporate slowly as it removed heat from whatever air was unlucky enough to wander to the top of the tank. While the gas is a couple hundred degrees above its evaporation temperature, it can't evaporate without a source of heat. But anything that was put in the liquid would be almost instantly cooled to the boiling point of the liquid and its thermal energy would be given to some of the liquid as it boils off.

Trying to put water on top of it would result in something you might call an explosion.

I think fluorine is heavier than water, too, that'd be an impressive display for those nearby... :)
What did you bring the book I didn't want read out of up for?
"MAN YOUR WAY TO ANAL!" (An actual quote from another forum. Only four small errors from making sense.)

User avatar
Quadropus
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:30 pm UTC

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Quadropus » Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:23 am UTC

Robin S wrote:I propose heavy ass-magnets as an alternative.

Just a note, when I clicked I got one of my numerous internet security things popping up telling me that there was a chance I could have got a keystroke logger on my computer if I accepted.

Just a note/warning.
Image

"If I go insane, please don't put your wires in my brain"

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Robin S » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:27 am UTC

MotorToad wrote:I think fluorine is heavier than water, too
No, for the reason I posted above.
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

User avatar
evilbeanfiend
Posts: 2650
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:05 am UTC
Location: the old world

Re: argon fish tank

Postby evilbeanfiend » Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:22 pm UTC

MotorToad wrote:I think fluorine is heavier than water, too, that'd be an impressive display for those nearby... :)


a single F2 molecule may have more mass then H20 but that is pretty irrelevant when each molecule is so spaced out. its the density that matters not the mass.
in ur beanz makin u eveel

User avatar
BlackSails
Posts: 5315
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:48 am UTC

Re: argon fish tank

Postby BlackSails » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:52 pm UTC

Robin S wrote:There aren't any. At room temperature and pressure, 1 mole of gas occupies around 24 litres, so in order to be more dense than water the gas would have to have a molecular mass of over 24 kilodaltons, which is the sort of value you'd expect for a protein molecule. The densest gas I know of, radon, is about a hundred times less dense than water.


That volume is only for the ideal gas though, and that gas doesnt exist.

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Robin S » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:05 pm UTC

It's extremely close for non-ideal gases.
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

User avatar
Minerva
Posts: 947
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:58 pm UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Minerva » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:06 pm UTC

OK. So, let's try to think of a colourless, clear, water-immiscible liquid, which isn't toxic or hazardous, which is considerably more dense than water.

The best candidate I could think of was o-dichlorobenzene. That should do the trick.

Dichloromethane could do the trick, too, but try not to breath too much of it.
...suffer from the computer disease that anybody who works with computers now knows about. It's a very serious disease and it interferes completely with the work. The trouble with computers is you play with them. They are so wonderful. - Richard Feynman

Ieatsoap6
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:24 pm UTC
Location: Atlanta

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Ieatsoap6 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:11 pm UTC

Don't really have much to add to the topic except that for some reason I really liked the over the top vulgarity on the image. Excellent.

User avatar
Mathmagic
It's not as cool as that Criss Angel stuff.
Posts: 2926
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:48 am UTC
Location: In ur fora posting in teh threads

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Mathmagic » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:29 pm UTC

Minerva wrote:OK. So, let's try to think of a colourless, clear, water-immiscible liquid, which isn't toxic or hazardous, which is considerably more dense than water.

The best candidate I could think of was o-dichlorobenzene. That should do the trick.

Dichloromethane could do the trick, too, but try not to breath too much of it.

While it may be denser, you have to make sure it's insoluble in water as well.
Axman: That, and have you played DX 10 games? It's like having your corneas swabbed with clits made out of morphine.
Pathway: cocks cocks cocks

User avatar
MotorToad
Really Repeatedly Redundantly Redundant
Posts: 1114
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:09 pm UTC
Location: Saint Joseph, CA
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby MotorToad » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:55 pm UTC

Robin S wrote:
MotorToad wrote:I think fluorine is heavier than water, too
No, for the reason I posted above.
evilbeanfiend wrote:a single F2 molecule may have more mass then H20 but that is pretty irrelevant when each molecule is so spaced out. its the density that matters not the mass.

Liquid Fluorine. See, now you made me go look it up...
Fluorine melts at -219.61°C (-363.30°F), boils at -188.13°C (-306.63°F), and has a specific gravity of 1.51 in its liquid state at its boiling point.
I think it'd be pretty damn silly to suggest floating water on a gas...
What did you bring the book I didn't want read out of up for?
"MAN YOUR WAY TO ANAL!" (An actual quote from another forum. Only four small errors from making sense.)

User avatar
3clipse
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:38 am UTC
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby 3clipse » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:50 pm UTC

The problem with this is that the person has assumed that a gas and a liquid are going to have the same density and weight if they have the same specific gravity, which just isn't true.

Argon may be heavier than air or water gas, but it is certainly not heavier (per volume at a certain pressure) than liquid water, at least not at standard pressure and temperature...it would just bubble up through the water.

What you would end up with would be a bunch of water with a layer of argon on top of it, then air on top of the argon, thus killing whatever was in the water as no new oxygen could reach it.

EDIT: i r gud at syence!
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

User avatar
MotorToad
Really Repeatedly Redundantly Redundant
Posts: 1114
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:09 pm UTC
Location: Saint Joseph, CA
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby MotorToad » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:29 pm UTC

Uhm... Substances have different specific gravities as a liquid or a gas. As a gas its specific gravity is compared to air, and as a liquid it's compared to water. I don't know of any correlation to whether a material that's heavier or lighter than air will be heavier or lighter than water when it's a liquid, but it's probably "most of the time," at least for elements.

The problem with the picture isn't that argon is a gas, like everything else it's a liquid or even a solid if it's cold enough and high enough pressure. The problem with the picture is that argon is a liquid at around -300ºF and isn't going to coexist with liquid water. Picture throwing liquid aluminum in a barrel of water. It's going to be a mess.
What did you bring the book I didn't want read out of up for?
"MAN YOUR WAY TO ANAL!" (An actual quote from another forum. Only four small errors from making sense.)

User avatar
evilbeanfiend
Posts: 2650
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:05 am UTC
Location: the old world

Re: argon fish tank

Postby evilbeanfiend » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:06 am UTC

you could do it with two colourless liquids however, maybe also dye the water slightly blue for added effect, youd want to make sure none of the fish were bottom feeders though.
in ur beanz makin u eveel

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby The Reaper » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:45 pm UTC

[insert dead fish here]

olcaddy
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:24 pm UTC

Re: argon fish tank

Postby olcaddy » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:41 pm UTC

On a smaller scale this should work (beta fish) feeding may be an issue. Basicly because of air pressure acting evenly over an entire surface, surface tension, and magic if you put a screen over a glass or mason jar as some guy on metcafe shows (search 'floating water jar') the water no fall out, or more importantly the air does not go into the jar/glass displacing the water. This may be scalable and something like sheen cloth rather than screen may give a nice effect. I doubt it would work with an open top ( once inverted) worth a shot tho.

User avatar
jaap
Posts: 2094
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:06 am UTC
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby jaap » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:58 pm UTC

I think the following video is appropriate:
Ship floating on heavy gas (Hexafluoride)

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby The Reaper » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:09 pm UTC

jaap wrote:I think the following video is appropriate:
Ship floating on heavy gas (Hexafluoride)

with the amount of heavy air it displaces, its drastically different than water being the floating mechanism. Gas can be heavier than Gas, but Gas will not be heavier than most liquids and solids. I'm sure someone here can tell you how boats float, because for some reason the words arent going from my head to my fingers right now. water displacement and such, but I cant think of the actual law for it. brainfart :(

User avatar
jaap
Posts: 2094
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:06 am UTC
Contact:

Re: argon fish tank

Postby jaap » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:23 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
jaap wrote:I think the following video is appropriate:
Ship floating on heavy gas (Hexafluoride)

with the amount of heavy air it displaces, its drastically different than water being the floating mechanism. Gas can be heavier than Gas, but Gas will not be heavier than most liquids and solids. I'm sure someone here can tell you how boats float, because for some reason the words arent going from my head to my fingers right now. water displacement and such, but I cant think of the actual law for it. brainfart :(


The 'boat' in that video floats in exactly the same way as a real boat in water, by the Archimedes principle. As for the original idea, I agree completely that having a gas heavier than some (other) liquid is likely impossible. And MotorToad was correct that there are two different definitions for specific gravity, one for gases, one for liquids, and that this is probably what confused the creator of the picture in the OP.

User avatar
Mr. Beck
Commencing Countdown, Engines On
Posts: 1469
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:14 am UTC
Location: Albuquerque, NM.

Re: argon fish tank

Postby Mr. Beck » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:20 am UTC

Another person (me) says that there is no way you can find a gas denser than water.
But if you can, I'm first in like for the hypno-tank!


Return to “Science”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests