I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

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Draverd
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I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Draverd » Fri May 23, 2008 11:12 pm UTC

I heard something a while back and I wanted to know if someone could point me in the right direction and tell me what I should read to find out more information about what it is that I am searching for. I heard someone say something similar to, "Since you Perceive therefore it is." I am not sure if I said it correctly. Anyways they explained to someone that if a lot of people believe something is one way it will be that way, and that belief can change how something functions.

Can someone tell me who the original person who said that was; and what I should read to learn more about it? Also does it deal with Quantum Physics?

Example: There was a story that I heard about a little kid who was 5 that rode his bike along the top of some fences on the way to school everyday, and there was a guy who walked down a path to work who saw this happen several times. One day the guy walks over and tells the kid that he can't do that because it is impossible. Then after that the guy never saw the kid do it again. There are several other things that I have read where people did things that pertained to this type of thing who could not do it all of a sudden because other peoples beliefs stopped them, because theres was not strong enough.


I also got an idea on a way to try to test this since I kept on thinking about it for a while. Actually I had two ideas but the first one wont work. At least I don't think it will; here I will explain both.

Get a group of a Hundred people or more and Hypnotize them to believe that when they go into a room (that is set up for it) they will see a Blue Orange. I was thinking that possibly that their belief will cause it to turn blue, yet I started to doubt it. It may only change in there mind the word for the color. So they might start thinking all orange things are blue. Then I thought of a better one which is similar.


Get a group of a Hundred people or more and Hypnotize them to believe that when they hear three claps the Orange that they will be looking at will blow up ( Not in the sense with an explosive). I was wondering what would happen if anything on the third clap when everyone is looking at it? What do any of you think about this?
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back."

"Progress is a comparative of which we have not settled the superlative." G.K. Chesterton

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Turambar
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Turambar » Sat May 24, 2008 1:09 am UTC

Dude, nothing's going to happen. The orange wouldn't blow up no matter how much the people were convinced it would.

If that quote pertains to quantum physics, then it is talking about collapsing probability fields. A photon, for example, may be in an indeterminate state or location (or multiple simultaneous states), until someone tries to measure or observe it, at which point it "chooses" a particular place to be.

However, that's almost completely irrelevant to the macroscopic world. Things on large scales don't give a damn what humans think, they'll still follow the laws of physics.
"Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."
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Micron
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Micron » Sat May 24, 2008 1:14 am UTC

I think your suggestion is silly and has no basis in reality.

The closest concept I can think of is the philosophical argument "Cogito, ergo sum" ("I think, therefore I am") but that is a statement on the observation of reality, not a suggestion that observation dictates reality.
In physics the Heisenberg uncertainty principle describes cases where the observation of different properties of a particle are mutually exclusive. The observer effect describes things which cannot be observed without altering their properties and quantum superposition describes some of the strange combinations of possible events which can occur. However none of these suggest that you can alter reality with the power of your mind.

Furthermore I propose that your suggestion can be trivially refuted by the simple fact that I have walked into a dark room and tripped over an object I did not believe was there.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby SpitValve » Sat May 24, 2008 1:28 am UTC

Micron wrote:Furthermore I propose that your suggestion can be trivially refuted by the simple fact that I have walked into a dark room and tripped over an object I did not believe was there.


Maybe you subconsciously wanted to punish yourself for what you did one dark night in September.



But seriously: do not confuse science with philosophy. Relativity is not relativism. Quantum mechanics does not mean we create reality with our brains. Go find some more books on physics and read them. Wikipedia is good too. Then you can make more informed theories.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Mettra » Sat May 24, 2008 3:34 am UTC

SpitValve wrote:Maybe you subconsciously wanted to punish yourself for what you did one dark night in September.



But seriously: do not confuse science with philosophy. Relativity is not relativism. Quantum mechanics does not mean we create reality with our brains. Go find some more books on physics and read them. Wikipedia is good too. Then you can make more informed theories.


Never thought I'd do this, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and defend the philosophers. Most of them really do have some idea what they're talking about, especially when it comes to physics like relativity and quantum mechanics.

To the original poster: unfortunately, whatever you were told has no real basis in reality. It is completely understandable that with such complex theories like quantum mechanics that people in other fields (people not in physics, in other words) would misunderstand even someone very knowledgeable in the field. There is a dual issue here of a) people in other fields not having experience with the kinds of problems and propositions that physics poses and b) problems with terminology/vocabulary.

In physics (and in other sciences), students are trained to think in very specific ways about how things work. In addition to this field-specific training and mindset, physics uses very specific meanings for some words that are commonly used. The differences between commonly used words and their scientific counterparts are very subtle, but simple to sort out if you decide to take the time. 'Theory' is a good example of that type of word. In common usage, it suggests a guess (maybe even an educated guess) as to a cause for something. In physics, however, it is not a guess at all - it is a mathematical framework that has been accepted and put through the test of experiment throughout the scientific community.

One thing that you did do correctly was suggest an experiment to test whether the idea was real or not. This is the most fundamental and important thing you can do in any realm of science! It's obvious that you realize what you have been told is not NECESSARILY true. So you came up with an idea that might tell you the answer. In this case, the experiment would fail since the phenomenon you were told about is not a real thing, but that's the interesting part - the experiment gives you information whether it fails or not! But you weren't only clever enough to suggest an experiment, you realized that the one you initially had thought of might have problems associated with it. This is a common occurence in experiments. We always have to consider whether a positive or negative result is giving us the kind of information that we're looking for (in other words, we're not accidentally measuring the wrong thing!).

I would suggest that you approach any kind of fantastic claim with the same attitude and figure out a way that you might prove or disprove the claimed effect. Also, if you're interested, you could always learn a little bit about physics, about how things physically work in the world, what kind of forces there are and where they come from and what effects they can have. It's a wide and diverse topic covering literally any area you can think of (the entire universe, for starters) - so it's likely there's at least one aspect of it you would find interesting.
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Draverd
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Draverd » Sat May 24, 2008 4:38 am UTC

-_- Yes I know little right now yet I am learning more as time gos on

There is something that I wanted to mention, which is where part of the idea was derived from. I have read and seen all kinds of things that deal with so called "Mind Over Matter,"

One of the main things was from a video I saw on tv which I found again recently online. Here it is http://youtube.com/watch?v=4jgMzcRxxEE

Hey sorry to change the subject but do any of you know what mind over matter really is? that has been puzzling me for a while? Like I said I have seen and read things on mind over matter which I will explain below.

I have read a story about 6 or 7 years ago that talked about a guy who saved someone that crashed in a Helicopter. The guy saved him by lifting the Helicopter up with his arms. Within the article it stated that it was impossible to lift that, even with adrenaline because with that much weight it would break your arms after a certain point. Yet the guy managed to do it without getting hurt.

I have also seen on tv a while back on Ripley's Believe it or not some things that I have been wondering "How the hell they did they do that!" I saw one where a guy Held down two planes trying to take off, with a rope around a towel, Under each armpit. With that much opposing force on both sides it should have pulled his arms off!

I don't recall the name of the show but I also remember seeing a program on the discovery channel a few years back showing people doing things that seem impossible. In one program it showed a crazy martial arts school in the US. I would never attempt the things they did because I don't want to get hurt. It showed guys getting kicked in the groin really hard, people getting punched in the throat, having a 2 by 4 broken over there heads, and several other things without getting hurt. Things which should kill you. They were examined, and the people could not conclude how they did not get hurt.

Is it mind over matter? Could somebody please explain what it is?

:? I apologize now ahead of time if wrote this in a weird way or explained it poorly. I am tired and I did not get that much sleep lately -_-

"True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing." -Socrates
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back."

"Progress is a comparative of which we have not settled the superlative." G.K. Chesterton

Micron
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Micron » Sat May 24, 2008 6:04 am UTC

Draverd wrote:Hey sorry to change the subject but do any of you know what mind over matter really is? that has been puzzling me for a while? Like I said I have seen and read things on mind over matter which I will explain below.

"Mind over matter" is a nonsense phrase, it has no consistent meaning nor does it refer to any real physical behavior. It is a phrase often introduced in pseudoscience discussions as an way to wave away the need to explain the actual mechanics behind an observation. The idea that you can somehow use the power of your mind to reshape reality is certainly appealing, unfortunately that is just not the case.

All of your anecdotes follow a similar pattern; they present a behavior that seems to be impossible and suggest that someone was able to perform it. You then imply that because someone performed an "impossible" task that must demonstrate "mind over matter", whatever you think that means. This sort of thinking is backwards. If you think a behavior is impossible and then see someone do it that means that your assumption that it was impossible in the first place was wrong, not that they possess superhuman abilities.

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Draverd
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Draverd » Sat May 24, 2008 6:29 am UTC

If you think a behavior is impossible and then see someone do it that means that your assumption that it was impossible in the first place was wrong, not that they possess superhuman abilities.


Wait that would then imply that the medical books are wrong about how much the human body can take before somebody could get seriously injured. That would imply that If anyone else was under the same situation as that 300 pound over weight man who lifted the 6,000 pound Helicopter, that anyone could lift 6,000 pounds without getting hurt, or at least in the way you try to describe it. Which I don't see it in that perspective.

I think a better terminology may be kei energy, Yet what is key energy? That is what I would like to figure out scientifically, and what you can do with it.
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back."

"Progress is a comparative of which we have not settled the superlative." G.K. Chesterton

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Micron » Sat May 24, 2008 7:32 am UTC

I was actually thinking that the force applied to the person's body was probably far less than was assumed.

Stage magicians use similar tricks all the time. They will show you several things that you can verify are true and allow you to make an invalid connection between them that appears to imply the impossible.
For example I watched one of Penn and Teller's stunts where they drove a semi over poor little Teller. They show you the truck, show you how many tons it weighs when driven onto a freight scale, and then allow you to assume that the weight was divided evenly across all the wheels (which was very much not true).
When this sort of confusion or deception is deliberate it is a magic trick but you can fool yourself in the same way. (A helicopter weighs 6,000 pounds, probably true. A man moved one, we'll assume that's also true. Therefore he lifted the full 6,000 pounds, probably not actually true but very hard to determine in that case.) As a trick this sort of presentation is fairly harmless but when people start taking the "impossible" results seriously it can be very damaging to their understanding of legitimate science.
In case you're not aware theRandi Foundation has for years offered a $1 million prize for any repeatable and testable demonstration of paranormal powers. Unsurprisingly the prize has yet to be claimed.

I'd love to give you a solid explanation of exactly what happened in each anecdote you provided unfortunately neither of us really have enough information to analyze the details of what really happened and I don't have the patience to try to toss "what if" scenarios back and forth.

Regarding human performance and "ki energy" more specifically. I've trained in a couple different styles of martial arts that talk about ki(or chi or whatever) energy and at least in my experience it is a tremendously useful description of something that does not actually exist. It really doesn't work to try to explain all the individual muscle movements or details involved in a technique. "Keep your abdominal muscles tense but not still and your knees slightly bent with your center of gravity remaining over the ball of your foot and ..." is just confusing and trying to explain some of the more exotic techniques by saying "now lower your heart rate" or "increase your metabolism and raise your body temperature" is useless, no one can learn how to control their body that way. However describing the movement of "energy" is a much more effective way to get a student to move correctly. It simplifies a whole set of behaviors into a single visual that a person can understand without being fully aware of what their body is doing. Imagine trying to teach someone to move their toes, you could tell them all about the nerves and muscles and tendons and bones involved if you like but I don't think it will help.
I should add that all of the stunts you describe include a lot of pure physical conditioning and conditioned responses as well. There's a great deal you can do to toughen your body, condition it to absorb a blow rather than being rigid or totally limp, and you can reduce reflexes like collapsing in pain or choking. Thinking about ki might be a great way to practices those exercises but you really don't want to try to stunt without all that training, ki or no ki.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby BlackSails » Sat May 24, 2008 1:52 pm UTC

With regard to Ki: I too have trained in several different martial arts. Ki in the way you are talking about it, is absolute bunk. I spoke with an aikidoka, and he claimed that he doesnt need to actually fight in class to learn how to fight, because he could just redirect the ki of any attack. Stronger attacks have more ki, and thus are easier to deflect. Anyone with an understanding of physics or reality should realize that this is complete BS (for those of you who are interested, he offered to demonstrate, and I swept him to the ground.) Ki is just a collective noun for what Micron said. A person who is in good shape, in a natural stance, and able to move quickly has "good ki." A person who is slothful and weak and not in the mindset to take a few punches and give a few punches has "poor Ki." But no-touch knockouts and other magical things? Thats just acting and stagework. There is no mystical energy field that binds the galaxy together. The force isnt real, the rabbit was in the hat the entire time, and wishing doesnt make things happen.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Mettra » Sat May 24, 2008 5:03 pm UTC

Draverd wrote:
If you think a behavior is impossible and then see someone do it that means that your assumption that it was impossible in the first place was wrong, not that they possess superhuman abilities.


Wait that would then imply that the medical books are wrong about how much the human body can take before somebody could get seriously injured. That would imply that If anyone else was under the same situation as that 300 pound over weight man who lifted the 6,000 pound Helicopter, that anyone could lift 6,000 pounds without getting hurt, or at least in the way you try to describe it. Which I don't see it in that perspective. [1]

I think a better terminology may be kei energy, Yet what is key energy? That is what I would like to figure out scientifically, and what you can do with it. [2]


[1] That might be a conclusion that you could arrive at, but you must consider there are other hidden factors at play here. When a medical book talks about the stress and strain that a piece of the human body can take, which human body are they talking about? Are they talking about a large muscleman or a small child? You have to understand that things like these are 'averaged' over a very large set of people - and not all people, importantly.

If the world consisted only of Shaolin monks, then our medical books would say that the average human is much more capable than they are in this world. The reason is that Shaolin monks spend every hour of every day training their body. They eat a very specific diet and go through regimens that exercise and push every part of their body.

There's also another aspect to 'lifting' a helicopter. It's one thing to lift a helicopter completely off the ground, and it's another thing altogether to lift one side of it. If you lift the whole thing you are lifting the entire however many pounds, but if you lift one side, your arms are only lifting a fraction of the actual weight. These kinds of details are something that unfortunately don't get across to TV shows - they are not concerned with scientific accuracy, they are more concerned with ratings.

[2] This mystical energy has a lot of things ascribed to it, but 99.9% of them have no basis in reality. Ki was once explained to me before as waves of motion propagating through your muscles, basically efficiency when you're striking a piece of wood or whatever it is you're striking.
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby The Ethos » Sat May 24, 2008 5:34 pm UTC

I agree with a majority of posting, but I think you should be careful in how you word things.

It is possible to control your blood pressure and heart rate with your mind. That is the basis for biofeedback (works for migraines, anxiety, cluster headaches) which is using your mind to control physiological symptoms. It is in some ways a modified version of self-hypnosis and meditation. I'm not a fan of alternative medicine, but this one is fairly effective.

Also remember that it IS possible for the brain to grasp something so strongly that it affects THAT person's reality. This is the basis for delusion, which can cause hallucinations, among other problems. One thing I was thinking of in particular though is conversion disorder. This is a disease where guilt, stress, whatever, can 'convert' into psychosomatic symptoms. The person can lose function of a limb, have numbness, or other neurological effects. Little kids tend to get it, especially in fighting households.

Anyways, just some things from the medical side where perception of reality can influence that person's reality.
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 26, 2008 12:00 am UTC

There is nothing wrong with discussions about chi energy and "mind over matter" and the like, but for the record if this particular thread veers too far away from actual science (and into philosphy and pseudoscience), I'm going to move the thread to General or somewhere. We like to keep discussions in this forum at least largely connected somehow to the actual reality we live in... (Yes, I'm being snarky on purpose. Oh well.)
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby TheCoelacanth » Mon May 26, 2008 3:23 am UTC

This sounds like that BS from "What The Bleep Do We Know?".

Please don't try to connect this nonsense to quantum physics and please don't try to claim that the "observer" in quantum physics is a person.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby BlackSails » Mon May 26, 2008 1:34 pm UTC

To get more into "Ki power"

There is a reason you dont see elderly aikido masters in UFC. And dont say its because they are "too deadly" or "too enlightened" to compete. Proving your style was useful has been a part of traditional martial arts since before the Shaolin temple was first constructed. In Japan, to open up a new martial arts school, you would have to fight all the other schools in the area. If your art was crap, they would keep coming by and beating the crap out of you and all your students until you left.

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Draverd
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Draverd » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:19 pm UTC

Can someone explain to me how the lady within the video I posted a few posts ago was able to move the objects without touching them? They has a physicist there, and he could not explain how she was doing it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4jgMzcRxxEE

I also wanted to know if you can explain how this guy can transform part of his body through meditation and focusing his chi?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jAMQQZdnBV8

do both of these things deal with channeling and controlling chi? If so then what really is chi?

There is a reason you dont see elderly aikido masters in UFC. And dont say its because they are "too deadly" or "too enlightened" to compete.


No the reason people don't see them there is because the premises for Most martial arts is to not fight. They teach that "You" are supposed to avoid fights at all costs in mosts martial arts. They would possibly consider it a waste of time and a disgrace because you are fighting to prove you are number 1. You do spar in martial arts but they don't go all out, and people are supposed to not show or act as if they are number 1.

I am not sure if you would want to read several different things that may pertain to this so I suggest watching the movie fearless to give you part of the idea.
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back."

"Progress is a comparative of which we have not settled the superlative." G.K. Chesterton

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby BlackSails » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:31 pm UTC

No the reason people don't see them there is because the premises for Most martial arts is to not fight. They teach that "You" are supposed to avoid fights at all costs in mosts martial arts. They would possibly consider it a waste of time and a disgrace because you are fighting to prove you are number 1. You do spar in martial arts but they don't go all out, and people are supposed to not show or act as if they are number 1.


Go read just about any biography of just about any koryu martial arts instructor. Gendai budo teaches this, koryu arts did not.


I am not sure if you would want to read several different things that may pertain to this so I suggest watching the movie fearless to give you part of the idea.
Can someone explain to me how the lady within the video I posted a few posts ago was able to move the objects without touching them? They has a physicist there, and he could not explain how she was doing it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4jgMzcRxxEE

I also wanted to know if you can explain how this guy can transform part of his body through meditation and focusing his chi?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jAMQQZdnBV8

do both of these things deal with channeling and controlling chi? If so then what really is chi?

There is a reason you dont see elderly aikido masters in UFC. And dont say its because they are "too deadly" or "too enlightened" to compete.


No the reason people don't see them there is because the premises for Most martial arts is to not fight. They teach that "You" are supposed to avoid fights at all costs in mosts martial arts. They would possibly consider it a waste of time and a disgrace because you are fighting to prove you are number 1. You do spar in martial arts but they don't go all out, and people are supposed to not show or act as if they are number 1.

I am not sure if you would want to read several different things that may pertain to this so I suggest watching the movie fearless to give you part of the idea.


Oh yeah, because martial arts movies are the best places to learn things.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby tommclaughlan » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:48 pm UTC

I, for one, believe EVERYTHING I see on TV and YouTube.......
Image

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby 4=5 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:53 pm UTC

whit the meditation thing,
I can't line my hands up with accuracy, the amount of muscle tension and other thingsies change the length. I was able to for them to line up with some effort but I was also able to reproduce the same effect that he did, without meditation or anything like that.

he seems like a nice sincere sane guy, but hands are too squishy to judge by
(the other video is too long to watch)

and everybody please no sarcasm or anything that could be vaguely insulting

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Draverd
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Draverd » Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:46 pm UTC

BlackSails and tommclaughlan thanks for the sarcasm :mrgreen: I really appreciated it.

Of course not everything on tv and the internet is not credible. Unless you are locked in a mind set that tells you, " Oh it is on tv/internet and it gos against something I believe so it is not credible. Ergo I wont waste my time looking into it to see if it is." Hell besides tv and internet a lot of books are not credible. You have to be intelligent enough to examine everything and see if it is and do your own research, " Oh this highly proclaimed scientist says that he can turn glass into lead, and then the lead into gold." Would you actually believe it because he is really smart, and credible? therefore everything he says is right? If you do you should not.

You should question how it is possible and do your own research trying to prove what they said first before disproving it. If you do it the other way around you may think you are right and not look into it anymore, yet you don't know because you did not look at every possible angle.

I can't line my hands up with accuracy, the amount of muscle tension and other thingsies change the length. I was able to for them to line up with some effort but I was also able to reproduce the same effect that he did, without meditation or anything like that.

.
Could you help me then? I tried actually doing this meditation yet I could not achieve the same outcome :/

(the other video is too long to watch)


It is shorter than the Meditation video? Where you about to go somewhere or go do something and that is the reason why you could not watch it? Or is it because it may go against things that you believe? Sorry I mean no offense :) but it wouldn't surprise me if you took the lazy way out and say its not credible therefore you wont have to look into it and actually do other research at a Library or somewhere else. Again sorry I don't mean any offense but I noticed that a lot of people do that.

To the people who do take that route and base your belief on one core thing and not believing or even examining new data on the subject matter because it is different from what you learned therefore it is wrong. I have one thing to say to you. Note: I apologize if you do take any offense to this.

" One who knows everything knows nothing... "

I asked if you could explain it and yet you can not; So you deem it not credible, when you have not even tried taking the time and looking into it and actually studying different things. You replied shorty after without any evidence disproving it. If you can explain to me how she did it after you have done some research I would will really appreciate it. I have been trying to figure it out which is why I went towards chi.

I also found a website on chi which may be helpful.

http://www.meditation-mantra.org/alchemy/
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby 4=5 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:55 pm UTC

I was supposed to be doing chores while my parents were gone and the beginning of the video hit my "waste of time" sensors (they detect when a paragraph has been stretched to fill 45 minuets(like way too many of the videos shown in class) so I'll watch it now

I have nothing against the existence of powers so I'll criticise the video
(people don't "only use 10% of their brain" only 10% of your neurons are firing at any given time)
(how does an air tight box prevent use of magnets?)
this site may be interesting to you http://amasci.com or spefically this one


to change the aperent length of your hands I generally really relax my right hand and really tense my left.

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Draverd
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Draverd » Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:18 pm UTC

to change the aperent length of your hands I generally really relax my right hand and really tense my left.


ok but thats not what the guy was doing in the video. He had his right hand down relaxed and the other one up relaxed.
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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby 4=5 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:40 pm UTC

no I was trying to tell you how you could do it, I don't know exactly what I do
I'll just take a picture... wait, I need my hands for that :/

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby MrEff » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:50 am UTC

Put your hands together, then bend them both in the same direction so they form a slightly crescent shape. Then tilt them so the top appears vertical. One hand will appear to be longer.

Another theory I've heard is that lifting your hand reduces blood flow and makes it shrink slightly.

You could also just put one hand higher than the other. It is difficult to tell by looking at the bottoms that they aren't even.

As for quantum physics, give the kid some slack. Plenty of scientists thought that an 'observer' had to be an actual person. See the Schroedinger's cat thought experiment--it confused plenty of people back in the day.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby daryuu » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:36 am UTC

4=5 wrote:(how does an air tight box prevent use of magnets?)


I watched the video without sound the first time and totally missed that! It's kind of a funny claim, but what she was moving appeared to be wooden matches... Is phosphorous ferromagnetic?

Draverd wrote:Hell besides tv and internet a lot of books are not credible.


That's true, but I don't know if I would trust that particular video (the first one). When my sound was on I only skimmed through it, but I got the impression that they were touting the table lifting trick as unexplained, and I'm fairly sure that even the masked magician has covered that one (he only had one person carrying the table, but I imagine the principle is the same). I can't find a list of all the tricks that he's shown at the moment (wikipedia's is limited to large-scale illusions), but I think there was a rod attached to his arm that interlocked with the table and was hidden by his sleeves... Actually, looking closely, I think I see the same thing on some of the men's arms in that video.

MrEff wrote:As for quantum physics, give the kid some slack. Plenty of scientists thought that an 'observer' had to be an actual person. See the Schroedinger's cat thought experiment--it confused plenty of people back in the day.


I have to agree with this sentiment, especially since the difference in word usage between physics and everyday life has already been a topic of discussion in this thread.

Edited for atrocious grammar.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:32 pm UTC

http://scienceblogs.com/neurotopia/2007 ... idiocy.php

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby FIREPROOFsoul25 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:10 pm UTC

I am going to go ahead and disagree with most people who said that you should not mix philosophy and quantum physics. Wasn't there an Einstein quote pertaining to exactly this? "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." While Einstein was never publicly tied to any faith in particular he was an agnostic and kept himself open to the idea because it had and has not been definitively proven or disproved. I would recommend reading some books by C.S. Lewis, particularly A Case For Christianity. Not all that much to do with physics as he saw it but it surely makes you think a little bit more, and being a questioning, ever growing human it is duty to question such things. Yes he did write The Chronicles of Narnia and yes he was a Christian, but the man was one of the most brilliant writers of his time so it is no reason not to explore. Also if you want to go out far unto the limbs where philosophy and physics meet. I would suggest reading some of Ted Dekker's fictions. Very loosely based in scientific theories that are typically rebuked by many but great reads none the less.

As it stands your ideas are generally held to be false but then again, didn't they kill Galileo when he said it was the Sun, not the Earth, that was at the center of the solar system? Just because it hasn't been proven yet, doesn't mean it won't be later and doesn't mean you should stop believing in it.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Micron » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:18 am UTC

Draverd wrote:To the people who do take that route and base your belief on one core thing and not believing or even examining new data on the subject matter because it is different from what you learned therefore it is wrong. I have one thing to say to you. Note: I apologize if you do take any offense to this.

" One who knows everything knows nothing... "

I asked if you could explain it and yet you can not; So you deem it not credible, when you have not even tried taking the time and looking into it and actually studying different things. You replied shorty after without any evidence disproving it. If you can explain to me how she did it after you have done some research I would will really appreciate it. I have been trying to figure it out which is why I went towards chi.

You are almost making a valid argument there but I'm afraid you still fall short. While it is true that being closed-minded is dangerous not all claims need to be evaluated equally or rigorously before you can dismiss them. Perhaps you are familiar with the quote "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"? In this case while the videos you linked are mildly interesting I do not believe they could be sufficient to convince a reasonable person that an entirely new phenomenon is needed to explain them.
The claims presented in those videos are simply too vague to be evaluated seriously and the inability of other posters in this thread to disprove them is an indication of the lack of detail available in your sources, not a indication of the strength of those claims.
While I'm sure it would be fun if such powers existed the video demonstrations provided are unconvincing, especially given that their creators have no motivation to provide a truly honest or objective demonstration. Furthermore there is no need for extensive research or analysis before dismissing these claims and the burden of proof should be on the individual making the claim. If we had to seriously consider and research every crackpot claim before we could dismiss it nothing would ever get done.

Do you have any actual questions which we might be able to provide an answer for or is this just turning into a game of "here's an amazing claim of something I wish was true, if you can't prove it's fake then I must be right", repeated until you run out of youtube videos? I'm willing to try to consider any question you have but stop arguing by proxy through other people's videos.
If you are asking "are extraordinary abilities real" then I think the answer is pretty clearly "no" and we can point out some cases where such claims have been rigorously tested and found to be non-existent in all cases. There is even a clear and significant reward available to anyone who can present such a power and still we have no results.
If instead you for whatever reason already hold the belief that some such remarkable ability is possible and are determined to dig for evidence until you find something that "proves" whatever you are already convinced of then I don't see any point in spending more time in this discussion.

FIREPROOFsoul25 wrote:didn't they kill Galileo when he said...

He died of old age under house arrest, so no they didn't nor is that a valid comparison to any of the ideas suggested here.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Draverd » Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:00 am UTC

You are almost making a valid argument there but I'm afraid you still fall short. While it is true that being closed-minded is dangerous not all claims need to be evaluated equally or rigorously before you can dismiss them. Perhaps you are familiar with the quote "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"? In this case while the videos you linked are mildly interesting I do not believe they could be sufficient to convince a reasonable person that an entirely new phenomenon is needed to explain them.
The claims presented in those videos are simply too vague to be evaluated seriously and the inability of other posters in this thread to disprove them is an indication of the lack of detail available in your sources, not a indication of the strength of those claims.
While I'm sure it would be fun if such powers existed the video demonstrations provided are unconvincing, especially given that their creators have no motivation to provide a truly honest or objective demonstration. Furthermore there is no need for extensive research or analysis before dismissing these claims and the burden of proof should be on the individual making the claim. If we had to seriously consider and research every crackpot claim before we could dismiss it nothing would ever get done.

Do you have any actual questions which we might be able to provide an answer for or is this just turning into a game of "here's an amazing claim of something I wish was true, if you can't prove it's fake then I must be right", repeated until you run out of youtube videos? I'm willing to try to consider any question you have but stop arguing by proxy through other people's videos.
If you are asking "are extraordinary abilities real" then I think the answer is pretty clearly "no" and we can point out some cases where such claims have been rigorously tested and found to be non-existent in all cases. There is even a clear and significant reward available to anyone who can present such a power and still we have no results.
If instead you for whatever reason already hold the belief that some such remarkable ability is possible and are determined to dig for evidence until you find something that "proves" whatever you are already convinced of then I don't see any point in spending more time in this discussion.


People believe what they want to believe no matter what the evidence suggests


I went to the website where they are offering the million dollars and they are a bunch of smug jerks to put it politely. They even say smart ass things within what they post. It would be a waste of time to even send anything or show them anything because they already believe that it is not possible. Example: Some people believe man did not land on the moon. No matter what you tell them or show them you can not change their thinking, or what they believe . If it was only one video and it did not pertain to anything with a lot of people I would dismiss it. Yet I have looked into taoism and have read and seen some other interesting things so far; Not all pertaining to Taoism. A lot of it was prior to creating this topic going years back.

I have a question. Why would scientists including a physicist who are studying someone for esp be in on it, and fake it somehow? I read up on it and several scientist and different people studied her trying to figure out how she does it but none could. This is getting inane because I am sure someone might say well all of them are in on it.

I have seen people do some insane things that should not be possible and I am trying to get help on explain how they do it, yet no one wants to think outside of the box. They want to stay conformed to what they know and not expand their knowledge.

I have seen people who can walk on glass and not get cut, then someone else trying it and getting cut severely.

I have seen a guy who walked on red hot steel in front of a crowd with other people without getting hurt. They had a temperature gauge, and to prove that it was real they cooked a steak on it, and he walked on it shortly afterwards.

so yeah I am trying to figure out what it is that allows people to do these things, yet I see I wont get any useful help here. When something strays from the norm it is automatically impossible even though there may be thousands of different cases showing something impossible being done or real.

If you can not figure it out on your own and you need someone to explain everything single little thing to you without coming to your own deduction, without expanding further out with the small part of information; you have a closed mind.

I am done discussing this so close this topic if you want. Thank you FIREPROOFsoul25; I am glad that I am not the only one with an open mind.

One who knows everything, knows nothing.


I apologize if I offended anyone
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back."

"Progress is a comparative of which we have not settled the superlative." G.K. Chesterton

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby 4=5 » Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:18 am UTC

did you click my links? :(
he has alot of cool stuff, I think you should click my link http://www.amasci.com/

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby Micron » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:07 am UTC

Draverd wrote:I am done discussing this so close this topic if you want. Thank you FIREPROOFsoul25; I am glad that I am not the only one with an open mind.


Draverd, you misunderstand skeptics of your opinions. Doubting the authenticity of the anecdotes you describe (or at least the purported mechanisms behind them) is not a sign of being closed-minded but rather expecting a reasonable level of evidence for claims that directly contradict all of the other evidence we have collected regarding how our world works. Discovering a new effect or phenomenon would be fantastic as it would give us something new to study and explore however every one of the anecdotes you have provided either have a mundane explanation (ie firewalking) or are not available in any context where they can actually be verified (failure to catch a slight of hand trick is far from sufficient to prove mystical powers).

Unfortunately I fear that you are not actually interested in debating these points. You began this thread with what appeared to be a honest question about specific behaviors. However it seems clear to me now that you have no desire to examine the validity of a specific claim. Instead you are throwing out any super natural idea you can find and hoping to find something that cannot be explained away. This is not an honest or productive approach and suggests that you have already decided that somewhere some such supernatural event must exists and you are now hunting for evidence to support an preexisting belief.
It would be a waste of time to attempt to seriously consider any of these claims as you simply disregard anything shown to have a mundane explanation and substitute a new claim. I do not believe you are making a rational argument as you are not basing your conclusions on any evidence but rather seeking evidence to confirm your existing opinion. While this approach means that you never have to worry about anyone convincing you that you are wrong I'm afraid there's also no point in discussing it in such a manner.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby GMontag » Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:22 pm UTC

FIREPROOFsoul25 wrote:As it stands your ideas are generally held to be false but then again, didn't they kill Galileo when he said it was the Sun, not the Earth, that was at the center of the solar system? Just because it hasn't been proven yet, doesn't mean it won't be later and doesn't mean you should stop believing in it.


To quote Carl Sagan, "Sure they laughed at Galileo and Einstein, but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.". For every one real discovery that is rejected by mainstream science, there are thousands upon thousands of cranks and outright frauds claiming their discovery is true without basis.

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Re: I have a question and an idea that pertains to it

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:28 am UTC

Micron wrote:Unfortunately I fear that you are not actually interested in debating these points.

Yeah, that's my impression, too. Please do not ask questions and then disregard all the responses that happen to disagree with your sincere wish.

Doing so reeks of trolls.
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