Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

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ThreeLawsSafe
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Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby ThreeLawsSafe » Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:37 pm UTC

So...I'm a freshman in college and I've met some interesting people so far, one of which is my roommate. He has some...interesting religious views, the prominent of them being his belief in creationism. Now, I'm an atheist and since I'm taking a human evolution course, we get into many debates about evolution. Eventually, I got tired with him constantly just ignoring all the scientific evidence for evolution, and I printed out a picture of "Science. It works, bitches." and posted it in the room. It's become a kind of friendly contest between us now (he responded with "Faith. It saves."). I'm planning on putting up more pictures that promote science, such as a time line of the evolution of life and the table of elements.

So, I was wondering if any one in the xkcd community might have any ideas? The point of this isn't to try to make him give up his religious beliefs. It's so that I can keep my sanity for the rest of the year. Any ideas are much appreciated.


PS - Sorry if this topic doesn't belong in the Science section; I wasn't sure of where else to put it.

(edit: fixed stupid typos. Sorry!)
Last edited by ThreeLawsSafe on Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:31 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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rho
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby rho » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:20 pm UTC

Probably too far:



More seriously:

Hubble Deep Field FTW:
Spoiler:
Image


This was taken from Cassini, the white dot to the upper left is Earth:
Spoiler:
Image


Always good to have one of these about:
Spoiler:
Image


I think some of Da Vinci's anatomical drawing's are worth a wall-post:
Spoiler:
Image
Image


And on the smallest scales, you should keep some wave mechanics about:
Spoiler:
Image



...If he still thinks 'faith' is the more interesting world-view by the end of the year post the first one.
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Dirdle
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Dirdle » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:32 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:http://static.flickr.com/51/171268617_ac5d2e6c23.jpg

I really like that picture. Can anyone suggest a way to print it so I can fold it into a cone with height ~11cm, slant height ~22cm?

Good luck with finding images. You've probably already thought of: http://z-e-r-o.up.seesaa.net/image/Hubble_Ultra_Deep_Field_Black_point_edit.jpg, but I'll mention it anyway. Ninja'd (rightly so, it would be an embarassment to the forum if a (shh! don't say it too loudly!) newb had to point out the HDF).
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby mattdude » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:51 pm UTC

as for the cone: it can be done considering you have a printer that can print paper that is at least 44x44cm, but the image is of such low quality that it becomes very pixelated. here's the image with the polarization removed, increased by 150%, and then repolarized so you can cut out a portion of it. if a higher quality image can be found it would work a lot better. unfortunately, there's no way to preserve the text, or keep the quality. http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lifepp4.jpg

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby mattdude » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:14 am UTC

this one works out a bit better. i actually did it, and it looks pretty good. smaller than what you wanted, but meh. http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=life2ev5.jpg

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby tantalum » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:40 am UTC

http://www.expasy.ch/cgi-bin/show_thumbnails.pl

A brief chart of a (small) portion of biochemical reactions known to occur in various organisms. This chart covers most of the fundamental pathways, and there are countless more specialized pathways used to construct complex natural products.

Best of all, you can get a free printout (roughly 5`x4`) from Roche, if you're a student/in academia

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby yy2bggggs » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:44 am UTC

Is he a YEC?

You can't have a poster battle with a YEC without a nice picture of SN 1987A:
Spoiler:
Image


...and make sure he knows the significance of it.
Image

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby ThreeLawsSafe » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:46 am UTC

BlackSails: The first link you posted didn't work for me. The second, however, was wonderful.

rho: I might actually use the first picture at the end of the year, just like you suggested. Depends on how the rest of the year goes >.< The rest of your pictures were awesome. I got some good ideas from them too.

mattdude: Cool cone. I might print that out some time soon.

tantalum: That chart of biochemical reactions is absolutely crazy. I love it. Thanks.

yy2bggggs: He's not a YEC. In fact, one of the arguments he used against evolution was the idea that the earth could have been created with age. But still, I think the picture will work well.

I have this big project that's going on in the background; I'm compiling a list of items and innovations that came about as a result of science. And that's pretty much anything and everything. I want to aim to put them in chronological order. It's not a big deal if they aren't though. Once I have a significant amount of items on the list, I'll post it and add to it as I think of more. If you think of anything, please let me know!
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Solt
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Solt » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:02 am UTC

Can God create something so heavy that even he cannot lift it?

Dunno if that's the sort of thing you're looking for, but it sort of points out the ridiculousness of the idea of omnipotence.
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby DontMockMySmock » Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:01 am UTC

If he thinks God created the universe with age, and that God did so 6000 years ago, and that God will only let into heaven people who believe that the universe is 6000 years old:
God put forth evidence that the universe was old
God must expect (also know in advance, if he believes in Divine Plan) us to figure out the universe was old from this evidence
God must realize that only stupid people would believe that the earth is 6000 years old, once this evidence is deciphered
God only lets stupid people into heaven
God is an asshole
You shouldn't worship an asshole, QED.

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Bluggo
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Bluggo » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:01 am UTC

Solt wrote:Can God create something so heavy that even he cannot lift it?

Dunno if that's the sort of thing you're looking for, but it sort of points out the ridiculousness of the idea of omnipotence.


No, it does not - this kind of issue with the concept of omnipotence had already been dealt with by Scholasticism, IIRC.

Spoiler:
Actually, there are two possible answers that I know of.

The first one, which I think was Aquinas' and is my favourite, isto observe that "something so heavy that even God cannot lift it" is a contradictory description, given the definition of God, and thus it is actually meaningless.
It's not that God's omnipotence is limited by logic, but rather that human language is fallible - you could just as well have asked "Can God do oooga ooga balooba?" or "Can God make a cube which has more than six faces?".

The second one could be by Anselm of Aosta, although I am not sure about that, and is simply "Yes, he can".
Does this contradict omnipotence? Sure, it does, but God does not give a damn about your puny human logic unless he wants to :mrgreen:


There are many possible lines of attack to religion, and many many more to creationism, but this is not one of them.
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Interactive Civilian » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:08 am UTC

Here's a decent scientific method flowchart that may serve well, assuming he, like many, has no understanding of how science actually works or what it's about. It's not perfect, but it serves it's purpose well enough.

Spoiler:
Image


(not made by me)

Some things I disagree with about the image:
- the typo in "Get an new idea" (sic)
- "Bad idea! Dump it." should probably be something more like "bad idea! modify it."
- "Does all the evidence..." should probably be "does a significant amount of the evident..."

But, well, you get the point. ;)



I would really REALLY love a high resolution version of that, if there is one available.

[edited to spoiler tag the image]

[edit #2]
tantalum wrote:Best of all, you can get a free printout (roughly 5`x4`) from Roche, if you're a student/in academia

How exactly? I'm a high school biology teacher in Thailand, and I would love to get a couple to put on the walls of my 11th and 12th grade classrooms, since we spend a good portion of both of those years (esp. the 11th graders) talking about many biochemical pathways.

I looked at the site, but I didn't see a request link anywhere. Is it as simple as just sending an email to customer service? [edit: I was looking at the page after choosing "Thailand" from the pull-down menu... perhaps it's a US only thing?]
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby BlackSails » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:18 pm UTC


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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Interactive Civilian » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:02 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/oec/images/tree.jpg


Is this one better?

Nice, but it seems to only cover single-celled organisms... Mostly bacteria, protists, and a few other single celled eukaryotes. Still,very nice. *right click*save*. :) [edit]GAH! I should look more closely. Yes, that is full, isn't it. Or mostly. It seems like it's based on the wikipedia one below. I now have it at 5000x5000 ish if anyone wants.

[edit]
I've done some poking around. Wikipedia has an SVG file of one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tree_of_life_SVG.svg

I'm converting it to a rasterized image and I'll upload it and post the link as soon as I have finished it. It's looking to be 5085x5079. :)
And here it is:
http://mamoru.googlepages.com/Tree_of_life_SVG.png
(864KB .png)


While I'm fiddling around, ScienceBlogs has a Mammalian tree of life in circular format:
http://scienceblogs.com/evolgen/upload/ ... l_tree.jpg
From this ScienceBlog Entry:
http://scienceblogs.com/evolgen/2007/03 ... 2007_1.php

[Edit again...last one, I promise]
Still, that black and white one that was originally posted seems to have much better branching of organisms. However, I could only find the same size or smaller of the original. Hmmmm....
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby telcontar42 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:29 pm UTC


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krikke
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby krikke » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:36 pm UTC

you might want to add this to the wall
Image
although biology is probably your main subject

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Dirdle » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:13 pm UTC

mattdude wrote:as for the cone: it can be done considering you have a printer that can print paper that is at least 44x44cm, but the image is of such low quality that it becomes very pixelated. here's the image with the polarization removed, increased by 150%, and then repolarized so you can cut out a portion of it. if a higher quality image can be found it would work a lot better. unfortunately, there's no way to preserve the text, or keep the quality. http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lifepp4.jpg


This is great, thanks. Man, that lampshade is going to make one awesome hat now.
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby sgt york » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:55 pm UTC

Four molecular biology related suggestions:

1) A graph showing the molecular functions of 26k+ human genes, as released in from Celera's HGP. For bonus points, photoshop something like "Science lives here!" on the blue part of the graph (the some 42% that's unknown funtion. Yes, it is actually close to 42%). Hope you can see that...you may need a subscription.

2) Another cool one from HGP is their transcriptome map, showing the relative expression levels across the chromosomes, averaged for all tissues. Not terribly useful, but cool.

3) There was also a BIG pullout poster that came with one of the two releases (the public HGP and the private Celera sequences were published within 24h of each other, so I don't recall which one did this). Check 15 & 16 Feb 2001 of Science and Nature. These were really cool, really big, and were at one time standard decoration on every floor in research buildings.

4) Also very cool are the Nicholson charts. Big posters that outline the more popular "backbone" metabolic pathways. Very cool, and a free download. If you can find a way to print it big, do it. Maybe print it out on regular paper and tile the ceiling with it. Also typically found in every research building. You can also get them from Sigma-Aldrich

I do NOT want to hijack this thread, but I want to include one last thing. From the talk here, he sounds like a YEC. That's a pretty warped interpretation of the Bible, even by the standards of most other Christians (personal observation). Just keep in mind that people with that warped interpretation of the Bible usually have other warped interpretations of the Bible, and a common one is the belief that it is a sin to be angry. This could be a problem for you because if this good natured competition is only good natured on your side (that is, he's deceiving you and himself into believing he doesn't mind), it can explode once he reaches his capacity for self-deception. You may be prodding him without even knowing it. You may say "that's his problem," but a pissed off and repressed roomate is very much your problem, too.

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby tantalum » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:05 pm UTC

[edit #2]
tantalum wrote:Best of all, you can get a free printout (roughly 5`x4`) from Roche, if you're a student/in academia

How exactly? I'm a high school biology teacher in Thailand, and I would love to get a couple to put on the walls of my 11th and 12th grade classrooms, since we spend a good portion of both of those years (esp. the 11th graders) talking about many biochemical pathways.

I looked at the site, but I didn't see a request link anywhere. Is it as simple as just sending an email to customer service? [edit: I was looking at the page after choosing "Thailand" from the pull-down menu... perhaps it's a US only thing?]


At the bottom of the page, there's a link to Roche Applied Science. This should take you to an order form, where you fill in information/shipping address and a list of various items. At the bottom of that list is "General: Biochemical Pathways Wall Chart" Check that off and submit

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Mr. Beck » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:09 pm UTC

Why hasn't anyone posted this before?

Also,
Spoiler:
sciencemotivator.jpg
sciencemotivator.jpg (93.76 KiB) Viewed 14194 times


and
Spoiler:
Image

That's a picture of a planet orbiting a star other than Sol.

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby mattdude » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:14 pm UTC

Interactive Civilian wrote:I'm converting it to a rasterized image and I'll upload it and post the link as soon as I have finished it. It's looking to be 5085x5079. :)
And here it is:
http://mamoru.googlepages.com/Tree_of_life_SVG.png
(864KB .png)



i did the same thing with this and it actually came out quite well (all text is still very readable and everything). lemme know if somebody wants it, i'll post it.

edit: it actually has not that big an angle, so i tried to make the angle bigger and it said not enough ram lol (i'm running a gazillion things, i've got 2gb of ram.. i knwo that's enough, i just can't afford to close anything right now) so yeh... later i'll make it with almost exactly the same dimensions as the other one i did. it'll have a slant height of 45 inches :-D

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Solt » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:40 pm UTC

Bluggo wrote:It's not that God's omnipotence is limited by logic, but rather that human language is fallible - you could just as well have asked "Can God do oooga ooga balooba?" or "Can God make a cube which has more than six faces?".


No, I don't think that's the same thing. Your examples have fundamental issues with definitions. "oooga ooga balooba" means nothing. A cube is defined to have six faces.

However, it is possible for things to be so heavy that people cannot lift them. These words translate to concrete physical realities. But God is very strong and can fabricate anything, so the only answer is that saying he is omnipotent leads to a paradox, and as we know paradoxes cannot actually occur.


Bluggo wrote:The first one, which I think was Aquinas' and is my favourite, isto observe that "something so heavy that even God cannot lift it" is a contradictory description, given the definition of God, and thus it is actually meaningless.


That's the point. But it isn't the description that is meaningless, rather the original assumption.



I think it should be pretty clear there cannot be such a thing as true omnipotence, and once you acknowledge that (or try to explain it away) it opens up several very strong avenues of attack. But the original point of the phrase is to let people think about the paradox on their own terms, and perhaps start to see some of the inconsistencies in the language used to describe God, not to single handedly prove that there cannot be a god.

I think it would be a great thing to just print out on a piece of paper and pin up to the wall. If you're into that sort of thing.

sgt york wrote:I do NOT want to hijack this thread, but I want to include one last thing. [...] You may be prodding him without even knowing it. You may say "that's his problem," but a pissed off and repressed roomate is very much your problem, too.


Yea, what you're doing here might be overkill. I think it's better to lead by example- that is, show him that your belief system is just as capable as his at being moral, supportive, and giving life purpose (if not better). If you can't do that, maybe he has the better one after all? Religion is not a logical or scientific issue. Many atheists fail to understand that. It is a spiritual issue, and you cannot ignore the spiritual ramifications of what you are advocating.
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produced a more reliable product. But sailors do

not float on theory, and the welded tankers had a

most annoying habit of splitting in two."

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Interactive Civilian » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:09 am UTC

tantalum wrote:
[edit #2]
tantalum wrote:Best of all, you can get a free printout (roughly 5`x4`) from Roche, if you're a student/in academia

How exactly? I'm a high school biology teacher in Thailand, and I would love to get a couple to put on the walls of my 11th and 12th grade classrooms, since we spend a good portion of both of those years (esp. the 11th graders) talking about many biochemical pathways.

I looked at the site, but I didn't see a request link anywhere. Is it as simple as just sending an email to customer service? [edit: I was looking at the page after choosing "Thailand" from the pull-down menu... perhaps it's a US only thing?]


At the bottom of the page, there's a link to Roche Applied Science. This should take you to an order form, where you fill in information/shipping address and a list of various items. At the bottom of that list is "General: Biochemical Pathways Wall Chart" Check that off and submit

Hmmm... I guess selecting Thailand for the country was not such a good idea then. I'll clear that cookie and go back and select US and then see if they'd be willing to send to an overseas address. Cheers. :)

If they won't send, and anyone stateside is willing to help me out on this, PM me, please. :)

sgt york wrote:4) Also very cool are the Nicholson charts. Big posters that outline the more popular "backbone" metabolic pathways. Very cool, and a free download. If you can find a way to print it big, do it. Maybe print it out on regular paper and tile the ceiling with it. Also typically found in every research building. You can also get them from Sigma-Aldrich

Wow! Thank you for that one. That'll be up on the walls of my biology classrooms within the week. :D
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Monty40xi » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:57 am UTC

Anything you show him that shows how complex and/or beautiful nature is will probably be taken as evidence for HIS views.
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby ThreeLawsSafe » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:53 am UTC

sgt york: Both my roommate and I can get pretty heated when it comes to discussing science vs religion, but read what I wrote for Solt. Your pictures are awesome, thanks.

Mr. Beck: I had thought about that xkcd comic, but decided against it since I don't have any paper that long. Using multiple sheets of paper just doesn't seem to due it justice. I might reconsider it though. That science picture you posted is great.

Solt: You're right. I forgot that religion isn't logical. My roommate and I actually had an argument today about the origins of life. It was a frustrating and it got us nowhere. Thanks for reminding me. And I don't think we'll ever get extremely angry at each other. That may sound naive, but we actually get a long really well. Of course, that's when we aren't talking about religion or politics.

Monty40xi wrote:Anything you show him that shows how complex and/or beautiful nature is will probably be taken as evidence for HIS views.


Haha, good point. Is that what we would consider irony?

So, I posted a time line of earth/life from my Human Evolution textbook on the wall today. My roommate didn't understand the purpose of it. He didn't understand whether it was showing how old the earth is or whether it showed what type of life occurred when. He says that while the diagram does accurately show the theory of evolution (generally), he chooses not to believe in it. Any thoughts? Obviously I can't convince him to change his faith. But what does everybody think of this?

Here's the diagram:
Spoiler:
summer2008 and college 168.JPG
summer2008 and college 168.JPG (761.63 KiB) Viewed 13956 times
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Bluggo » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:56 am UTC

Solt wrote:
Bluggo wrote:It's not that God's omnipotence is limited by logic, but rather that human language is fallible - you could just as well have asked "Can God do oooga ooga balooba?" or "Can God make a cube which has more than six faces?".


No, I don't think that's the same thing. Your examples have fundamental issues with definitions. "oooga ooga balooba" means nothing. A cube is defined to have six faces.

And a God (at least, in the context of modern monotheistic religions) is defined to be omnipotent - so "a thing so heavy that God cannot lift it" is about as nonsensical as "a cube with more than six faces", or, if you prefer, as "a potato which is not a tuber".

For a logical attack to religion, I would recommend the good old problem of evil instead - or better yet, attack the creationism part: there you actually can use empirical evidence to back you up.

But yes, I agree that it is better not to overdo it - as long as it stays on a friendly, snarky level it is all fine, but these arguments can get unpleasant very quickly if one does not pay attention.
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Dezign » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:31 am UTC

Bluggo wrote:It's not that God's omnipotence is limited by logic, but rather that human language is fallible - you could just as well have asked "Can God do oooga ooga balooba?" or "Can God make a cube which has more than six faces?".

If you can't trust human language to adequately convey concepts, there's no reason to put faith in supernaturalism in the first place unless you learned about this supernaturalism through some channel other than written or spoken language conveyed by humans. Language is the first and currently most correct way to analyze and evaluate theism; external, objective reality does not require language and would be a better example of something that human language can fail at describing.* Religions make their appeals through the same initial references to the real world that basic science classes in grade schools do: Basic human-scale reasoning, combined with emotional inference (probably less of that one in science classes).

* however, it has been proven useful to adapt our language to attempt to explain and understand the natural world as we see more and more of it, which is what science is all about.
Last edited by Dezign on Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:39 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Bluggo » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:10 pm UTC

That's not exactly what I meant.

I was not going Zen and saying that truth cannot be expressed in human language; I was just pointing out that it is possible express concepts which are inherently contradictory, such as a circle with four corners or a honest lawyer :wink:, and that the "can God create a stone He cannot lift" paradox can be dealt with by observing that "a stone that God cannot lift" is just as meaningless a description as "a circle with four angles".

I was most surely not denying the possibility of analyzing theism through language; sorry for the confusion.
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby eck » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:54 pm UTC

I read a pretty funny comment on this forum a while ago but i can't find it anymore.
It's not an image but it's still pretty punching. It went something like this:

The propability that some kind of life is formed by chance is 0.00000000000...0001
The propability that this lifeform then evolves into a creature that can walk is 0.00000000000...0001
The propability that this lifeform then evolves into a creature that is able to calculate the propabilty of it's own existance is by definition 1.

Evolution into intelligent lifeforms will happen sooner or later and the reason it happened "just to us", "just where we live" and "just right now" is that if it wouldn't have happen to us we wouldn't know that it had happened.

The real qoute was better, if anyone finds the post please repost it :)

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Dezign
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Dezign » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:48 pm UTC

Bluggo wrote:That's not exactly what I meant.

I was not going Zen and saying that truth cannot be expressed in human language; I was just pointing out that it is possible express concepts which are inherently contradictory, such as a circle with four corners or a honest lawyer :wink:, and that the "can God create a stone He cannot lift" paradox can be dealt with by observing that "a stone that God cannot lift" is just as meaningless a description as "a circle with four angles".

I was most surely not denying the possibility of analyzing theism through language; sorry for the confusion.

Oh no, I agree! I suppose I was expanding upon it...

If support for an argument is constructed in such a way that the argument is, by its own declared definition, infallible, that argument is considered unreasonable. Any use of modal necessity, such as claiming something is necessarily adjective-er than any other thing could possibly be no matter what (infinitely heavier, smarter, more powerful) is positing an imaginary object that is not related to the real world, and is thus unassailable by reasoning with both its definition of itself and the external, objective world.

Connections to other claims which are not objectively definable, and appeals to emotion or intuition, are still capable of changing peoples' minds after they have embraced a concept that is not rationally falsifiable. As so frustrates Mr. Dawkins, this is often time consuming to try to effect because of the wide variety of mental bases for adoption of modally necessary claims and lack of transparency in just what those bases are.
Last edited by Dezign on Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:38 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.

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danpilon54
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby danpilon54 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:26 pm UTC

Which religion is your roommate? If he is catholic, tell him the Catholic church officially accepted evolution (and the big bang).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

I fail to understand how any catholic can believe ID when their own church has accepted evolution.
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby sgt york » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:42 pm UTC

re: the language/paradox discussion, Terry Pratchett said it best:

"LET ME PUT FORWARD ANOTHER SUGGESTION: THAT YOU ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A LUCKY SPECIES OF APE THAT IS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITIES OF CREATION VIA A LANGUAGE THAT EVOLVED IN ORDER TO TELL ONE ANOTHER WHERE THE RIPE FRUIT WAS?"

And that's in all caps for a reason. If you're familiar with Pratchett, you'll know why. If you're not familiar with Pratchett, get familiar with Pratchett. You'll thank me later.

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Solt » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:01 am UTC

sgt york wrote:A LANGUAGE THAT EVOLVED IN ORDER TO TELL ONE ANOTHER WHERE THE RIPE FRUIT WAS?


Interestingly enough that same language got us to the moon, allowed us to see unimaginable distances, and helped us accurately deduce things that happened billions of years before our species even existed, as well as other things that we are not even capable of seeing directly.

Our languages aren't as weak as you think.

Yes, the universe outside of what we see might be incomprehensible to us. But that's not what religious people claim, now is it?
"Welding was faster, cheaper and, in theory,

produced a more reliable product. But sailors do

not float on theory, and the welded tankers had a

most annoying habit of splitting in two."

-J.W. Morris

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:39 am UTC

I can't understand how any person can look at evolution and somehow decide that it would be more elegant, beautiful and/or awe inspiring if God just waved his hands and then there was man. I'd be a helluva lot more impressed with a God which created humans through an elegant, millenial process than with one that just got bored one day and thought it would be funny if monkey's could talk.

Also, be careful of using astronomical imagery to somehow disprove god

Spoiler:
Image


Instead, I like stuff like this
Spoiler:
Image

If he's not a YEC, it sure took an awfully long time for God to get around to creating Humans if he wasn't taking extra care to do it just right through evolution.
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I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby sgt york » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:12 pm UTC

Solt wrote:
Yes, the universe outside of what we see might be incomprehensible to us. But that's not what religious people claim, now is it?


Depending on the religion, it is or isn't. Christianity, for example, does say quite explicitly that the universe outside of what we see is completely incomprehensible. I know some Christians don't say that, but those are generally the ones that have never read the Bible.

And for the record, I can see unimaginable distances without the aid of language. We aren't capable of really imagining the distance to the moon or the sun, much less Sirius.

As for the quote, I think you missed the point, which was
Spoiler:
humor, mostly. There is a side point that that language is there to describe what is observable. But the primary purpose was humor.

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Solt
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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Solt » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:14 am UTC

sgt york wrote:Depending on the religion, it is or isn't. Christianity, for example, does say quite explicitly that the universe outside of what we see is completely incomprehensible. I know some Christians don't say that, but those are generally the ones that have never read the Bible.


I'm not sure saying the entity that created the universe has personally issued commands to the inhabitants of our planet is consistent with it being "incomprehensible."

And for the record, I can see unimaginable distances without the aid of language.


How did you know how to build the tools? If every generation had to reinvent the telescope because of a lack of communication how powerful would they possibly have become?

We aren't capable of really imagining the distance to the moon or the sun, much less Sirius.


I think math is very good at helping us imagine these distances. Just because we get blown away every time we try to comprehend them doesn't mean we can't imagine them.

As for the quote, I think you missed the point, which was
Spoiler:
humor, mostly. There is a side point that that language is there to describe what is observable. But the primary purpose was humor.


I know. I laughed. Then I figured you were also trying to make a point so I treated it as I would any argument...
"Welding was faster, cheaper and, in theory,

produced a more reliable product. But sailors do

not float on theory, and the welded tankers had a

most annoying habit of splitting in two."

-J.W. Morris

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby sgt york » Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:13 pm UTC

solt:

Heh...kind of an ironic argument. My post was really just poking at semantics, and I got caught up in it. The thing is, spoken language alone didn't get us to the moon. It didn't figure out how far away the stars are, and it didn't help us deduce what happened billions of years ago. Maths did that, with a little spoken language thrown in. We never could have done any of those things without the development of a new language, mathematics.

And I take issue with your claim that we can imagine the scales involved in things like astronomy or geologic time. We can use numbers to get a handle on them, but we can't really imagine them. We can't hold them in our heads. Think about something as astronomically small as the Earth-Moon system. If you shrink that down to a 20km diameter circle, you'd be about the size of a macrophage (10s of microns). We can't imagine something 10s of microns in size; our eyes don't have that kind of resolution, so our brains can't do it; there's no need. The processing power would be wasted, and evolution frowns on waste.

Granted, all that really matters is that we can manipulate them...but there's that semantics thing again. OHHHOHHHOHHO--HOOOO...YORK WANT BANANA!

Also, for religion and comprehensibility, the Bible and Koran (and therefore the majority of the world's people of faith) do say very explicitly that people are not capable of fully understanding God, creation, or even scripture itself. It actually says things that can be translated as "you can't ever possibly understand these things, no matter how hard you try."

I shall now await the smackdown from an admin for the threadjack.

GAH...back to work. Gotta get back to work....

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby idobox » Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:31 pm UTC

Against creationism and YEC, I see four points:
If god created the earth in 6 days, why did he (or Satan) implant false proof of evolution? You can clearly have faith in god AND agree with theory of evolution.
If species cannot change morphology over time, then WTF does breeding work? and just what is a mutation? bacteria resisting antibiotics, etc...
If God really wanted humans to be so biologically complex, Earth to have complex strata, the universe to be full of stars that have so many morphologies, if god created such a complex and diverse universe, why did he do it in such a short, simple and inelegant manner?
The bible was written around 100BC by a people of shepherds, according to centuries old oral legends. Some of these men pretended to be god's prophets. Why not? but why do you trust those people about things like archaeology and history? Why don't you believe muslim or hindu prohets? Australian natives believe the world is the dream a snake-god, how is that cosmogony antagonist with Christian faith that love and forgiveness will save you?

About graphical science, I love the poster with Maxwell's equations followed by "and there be light"
If there is no answer, there is no question. If there is no solution, there is no problem.

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Re: Help! Need more graphic representations of science!

Postby Ended » Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:39 pm UTC

I like the diagram from Max Tegmark's paper 'The Mathematical Universe':
Spoiler:
mathematical universe.JPG
mathematical universe.JPG (47.13 KiB) Viewed 12892 times
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