Free Energy

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YoungStudent
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Free Energy

Postby YoungStudent » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:35 pm UTC

Free energy with magnets.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3545010/f ... _for_home/
http://magnet4power.net/magniwork.htm

Anyone prove why this aint gonna work, or im building one.
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TheAlmightyEgg
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Re: Free Energy

Postby TheAlmightyEgg » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:02 pm UTC

I'm no expert, but wouldn't the setup shown in the video (the other site you linked has a rather suspicious lack of even the most basic explanation, and I'm not buying the damn book) just slowly demagnetise the magnets (I think it'd only demagnetise the small ones, but I'm not too sure - like I said, I'm no expert)?

YoungStudent
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Re: Free Energy

Postby YoungStudent » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:08 pm UTC

Yes, it certainly demagnetises the magnets in time...but wouldnt you profit from energy gain? Not accounting the generated energy, but accounting electricy bills instead...

And what would happen if i would use energy generated from the magnets, and support the spin of the wheel even more...it would give me spinning wheel that would spin quite long time?

Also something wierd going on here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-MQvzOCNSI

It produces more energy than it's consuming...
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MarvinM
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Re: Free Energy

Postby MarvinM » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:22 pm UTC

Brilliant stuff.

"I'm just using this plasticine to fill the hole and hide the wires that... base! I'm just using using this plasticine as a base".

YoungStudent
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Re: Free Energy

Postby YoungStudent » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:35 pm UTC

Okay, quote me - We try to explain magic, presence of spirits and supernatural with science, which only explains 'the physical world' that we observe. It's like blind earthworm declaring that there is no light.

TheAlmightyEgg
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Re: Free Energy

Postby TheAlmightyEgg » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:40 pm UTC

MarvinM wrote:Brilliant stuff.

"I'm just using this plasticine to fill the hole and hide the wires that... base! I'm just using using this plasticine as a base".


I just had another look, and you're definitely right - there's no steady increase in acceleration as the magnet approaches the disk, so the magnet could not be involved in the propulsion.

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Re: Free Energy

Postby YoungStudent » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:56 pm UTC

But check out some new links i added, they are definetly interesting.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Vaniver » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:14 am UTC

When someone mentions Free Energy, reach for your wallet, because you're being had.
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

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Re: Free Energy

Postby Steax » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:59 am UTC

The beginning of free energy sites start off trying to sound scientific with all sorts of techno-babble. Then they degrade into business talk (it works! cuts power bill by 50%!) and when you see the testimonials, duck, because you know you'll be seeing a template-generated "software box" with a discounted price.

"Green award 2009"? Google is suspiciously unknowing about it.

Most of the time the videos are outright scams to support bigger schemes in search of money. The videos are too vague for me to make much sense out of.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby YoungStudent » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:29 am UTC

Well all this magnet thing smells hoax indeed...

But what about Teslas idea, to turn cosmic rays into energy? Impossiple? I mean, Tesla was an incredible man...

That was sad, that they choosed power grids over teslas wireless electricty transfer...world would have been so much different...altought i would exist to enjoy it.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Steax » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:40 am UTC

Energy from cosmic rays might be feasible if we found a way to do the conversion; there would be more math to it, if anyone wants to explore more.

Also, the youtube comments for the "EBM machine" ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsqnIRleHkw ) video are hilarious.

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Re: Free Energy

Postby Gammashield » Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:34 am UTC

YoungStudent wrote:Well all this magnet thing smells hoax indeed...

But what about Teslas idea, to turn cosmic rays into energy? Impossiple? I mean, Tesla was an incredible man...

That was sad, that they choosed power grids over teslas wireless electricty transfer...world would have been so much different...altought i would exist to enjoy it.


Oh, Tesla's 'cosmic ray' idea is by no means impossible. The actual science at work there is quite obvious and direct from a modern perspective: strong incoming radiation will ionize a material (like a metal plate). An ionized conductor can be trivially used to generate electricity if one has an electric ground on hand (like the earth). Poof. 'Free' energy.

However, we're *already* using a variant of this technology these days: solar power. We use incoming solar radiation to excite electrons in semiconductors, and then control their flow. By comparison to a photovoltaic cell, the efficiency of relying on overall ionization like in tesla's device is hideous; I would be shocked if it could generate even fractions of a percent efficiency of converting incoming light into electricity.

Tesla's main accomplishment in coming up with this design was in showing that it was even *possible* to harness solar radiation in order to directly generate electricity. I highly suspect he was the first person to do so; at the time he was doing this, the theory of electromagnetism was still a work in progress. The design by modern standards is extremely crude. It was also decades ahead of its time. Solar power as a *whole* is almost solely the domain of the later half of the 20th century. Blame how cheap coal and oil is.

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Re: Free Energy

Postby burkleypatterson » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:01 am UTC

Obviously the idea of a machine outputting more energy than was put in is absurd, but a wheel driven by magnetism seems plausible (just a simple application of the right hand rule). The fact that it spins and generates kinetic energy in something else means that energy was initially present in the system somewhere though. Do magnets contain quantifiable energy of their own? If not, how is a system like this possible?

(I'm just looking for an explanation of where conservation of energy steps in to refine my own understanding)


**Edit** oops... i forgot that the variation of the right hand rule i was using requires velocity, force, and the direction of the magnetic field, all at right angles to each other. This set up would require the velocity and force vectors to point the same direction.
Last edited by burkleypatterson on Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:46 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Free Energy

Postby Steax » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:27 am UTC

There's a big difference in "Free" as in "not spending money/resources to obtain access to the energy source" and "Free" as in "out of nothingness". The first free is readily available; we don't pay to get the sun to shine, we just pay for the equipment. The second, however, is not yet possible, and is under debate if it can be possible at all.

burkleypatterson wrote:Obviously the idea of a machine outputting more energy than was put in is absurd, but a wheel driven by magnetism seems plausible (just a simple application of the right hand rule). The fact that it spins and generates kinetic energy in something else means that energy was initially present in the system somewhere though. Do magnets contain quantifiable energy of their own? If not, how is a system like this possible?

(I'm just looking for an explanation of where conservation of energy steps in to refine my own understanding)


A "wheel driven by magnetism" is called a motor. I'm not a specialist in the field, but I don't believe that it's possible to do it in a simplified manner without having a mechanism to switch polarity in one of the magnetic fields, which is why we use electromagnets and an alternating current (or a commutator) to achieve constant rotation. Without this, the system will only work for one rotation until the position is stable.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Jorpho » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:39 am UTC

YoungStudent wrote:That was sad, that they choosed power grids over teslas wireless electricty transfer...world would have been so much different...altought i would exist to enjoy it.
You would undoubtedly have people freaking out over the possible health effects of high intensity electric fields, at least.

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Re: Free Energy

Postby Sharlos » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:15 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:
YoungStudent wrote:That was sad, that they choosed power grids over teslas wireless electricty transfer...world would have been so much different...altought i would exist to enjoy it.
You would undoubtedly have people freaking out over the possible health effects of high intensity electric fields, at least.

Compared to the people freaking out over the possible health effects of power lines?

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Re: Free Energy

Postby skeptical scientist » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:15 am UTC

YoungStudent wrote:Also something wierd going on here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-MQvzOCNSI

It produces more energy than it's consuming...

Okay, he has a complicated contraption which includes a battery plugged into a wall socket. Then he has a light-bulb plugged into the contraption, which draws more energy from the contraption including the battery than the contraption is drawing from the wall socket.

The only thing weird going on is that people are surprisingly skilled at self-delusion.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Steax » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:34 am UTC

The guy said, in the comments, that he had "resonance problems" that prevented the use of the system without a battery or wall socket. :mrgreen:

I don't think it's self delusion: he links to his site which sells the blueprints for $28.

He also mentions crop circles.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby YoungStudent » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:13 pm UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1rilJFviVM

Bike pulling car without energy input, if i can pull a car, then i can do work with that bike, then i can generate work into energy...

Actually i know i wouldnt achieve free energy with that bike, but could someone explain me why? Its bugging me :)
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Technical Ben » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:27 pm UTC

YoungStudent wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1rilJFviVM

Bike pulling car without energy input, if i can pull a car, then i can do work with that bike, then i can generate work into energy...

Actually i know i wouldnt achieve free energy with that bike, but could someone explain me why? Its bugging me :)


Are you special or a troll? It has a battery. Battery = energy input. Battery != free energy. You line "Bike pulling car without energy input" is totally wrong. Sorry to be harsh, but it shows where you are going wrong with all of these ideas. It's like someone saying they have invented time travel, can go faster than the speed of light, or can reverse entropy. All are impossibles. Nothing will change this.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby YoungStudent » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:28 pm UTC

Oh, well...sorry. I guess im a troll.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Steax » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:40 pm UTC

You can rest assured that free energy by the definition of "a source of energy that is infinitely available, any time, with no external requirements or fuel" is impossible. Our laws of physics are pretty much built upon that assumption. Even if it is somehow possible, it's beyond our current grasp of physics, and is certainly out of reach of simple mechanical setups like this.

If you see a machine like this, either it's a scam (lots of people do this to eventually sell ebooks and stuff), or they're fooling themselves. Any machine will eventually stop or exhaust its energy source.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Zamfir » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:22 am UTC

YoungStudent wrote:
Bike pulling car without energy input, if i can pull a car, then i can do work with that bike, then i can generate work into energy...

Even better: People pulling a truck, even without a bike! No batteries involved, no magnets. I think they are not even plugged into a socket, although the picture is a bit shady. I guess there might be hidden cables behind the guys.

Image

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Re: Free Energy

Postby Technical Ben » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:49 am UTC

Watching a TED talk, even using vacuum energy is impossible. As it's at equilibrium, and you need a difference in temperature (If my understanding is right) to actually be able to get any useful work from it. I suppose you could try and trap individual fluctuations of increased energy in the vacuum energy. But how long have you got to wait?
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Re: Free Energy

Postby MarvinM » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:32 pm UTC

That's going to fall foul of the maxwell's demon problem that gave us the concept of entropy.

Either thermodynamics is mandatory for everything or applies to nothing and the rest of the universe behaves that way for no reason.

Something else I like to take into account is that evolution has had a molecular playground for millions of years trying to develop sources of energy and it's stuck with the same chemical/sunlight means as the rest of us. Some of the chemical energy used is nuclear in origin which is neat but no perpetual life.

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Re: Free Energy

Postby BlackSails » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:59 pm UTC

Harnessing excitations of the vacuum energy (say, wait around until it tunnels into an excited state or whatever) doesnt work because of the problem with feynman's ratchet - you also lose energy to tunneling to lower states.

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Re: Free Energy

Postby webb.am » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:14 pm UTC

Free energy / perpetual motion machines are funny because, with a lot of designs, it's really difficult to see why they're impossible.

Anyone in need of procrastination material should have a look at the museum of unworkable devices: http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm ... it does a good job of explaining why these devices don't work.


I did see a device that extracted a minute amount of energy by stealing angular momentum from the Earth. Interesting but impractical.

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Re: Free Energy

Postby Technical Ben » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:38 pm UTC

To add to that... IO is a hot moon. Hot enough for you to run your steam engine or generator off of. It gets all it's power from the gravity of the moons and Jupiter. So, if we set a satellite in the correct orbit, could we gain any useful power from the Earth/moon orbit? (Mind you, we'd have lost a ton of power just getting it there)
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Re: Free Energy

Postby webb.am » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:22 pm UTC

Europa's oceans remain liquid for the same reason; because the gravitational pull of Jupiter causes massive tidal effects. The energy is actually coming from both the planet and the moon losing rotational energy, so the end result is the moon becoming tidally locked.

In other words, to get energy out of an artificial satellite this way it would have to be quite massive and you'd have to start it off spinning - you'd have to put the energy in first. You could probably extract energy from Europa using some kind of hydroelectric dam, but it's cheaper and easier to build them on Earth and extract energy from our own moon's rotation.

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Re: Free Energy

Postby skeptical scientist » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:36 pm UTC

Technical Ben wrote:To add to that... IO is a hot moon. Hot enough for you to run your steam engine or generator off of. It gets all it's power from the gravity of the moons and Jupiter. So, if we set a satellite in the correct orbit, could we gain any useful power from the Earth/moon orbit? (Mind you, we'd have lost a ton of power just getting it there)

Tidal power plants already get their energy from the Earth/Moon orbit. (Or depending on your point of view, they get their energy from the tides, which get their energy from the Earth/Moon orbit.)
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Coffee » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:32 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Even better: People pulling a truck, even without a bike! No batteries involved, no magnets. I think they are not even plugged into a socket, although the picture is a bit shady. I guess there might be hidden cables behind the guys.

Image


They are cheating; I'll bet ya a million there's some glycolosis and mitochondrial activity hidden in there somewhere... And even money they've eaten recently too.

webb.am wrote:You could probably extract energy from Europa using some kind of hydroelectric dam, but it's cheaper and easier to build them on Earth and extract energy from our own moon's rotation.


Hey, if that's the carrot it takes to get a mission to Europa, by all means let's do it!!
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Peripatetic » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:41 am UTC

Steax wrote:You can rest assured that free energy by the definition of "a source of energy that is infinitely available, any time, with no external requirements or fuel" is impossible. Our laws of physics are pretty much built upon that assumption.

Energy conservation isn't an assumption; it's a consequence of the laws of physics and a widely observed phenomena (although, not on a cosmic scale).

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Re: Free Energy

Postby Mr. Freeman » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:29 am UTC

Steax wrote:There's a big difference in "Free" as in "not spending money/resources to obtain access to the energy source" and "Free" as in "out of nothingness". The first free is readily available; we don't pay to get the sun to shine, we just pay for the equipment. The second, however, is not yet possible, and is under debate if it can be possible at all.


Unless you can point to reliable, scientific, peer-reviewed resources to show that such a debate exists I'm going to call bullshit. The media spouting nonsense about free energy is not a "debate", it's more comparable to the local drunkard shouting nonsense on the street corner. Three people claiming to have invented "over unity" machines that they won't let anyone independently verify is not science.

Saying that there's a debate between the two sides implies that both sides have some level of credibility or evidence, this is not the case.

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Re: Free Energy

Postby Steax » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:21 am UTC

I don't mean "debate" literally. I meant a "go debate about if it's possible or not in your advanced physics fields" sort of thing.

Just that every now and then, there are ideas stemming from real physics that seem to make "free" energy possible (although usually totally impractical as an energy source), if momentarily (vacuum energy and whatnot come to mind). I know, I know, that is much less than "debate".
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Technical Ben » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:15 am UTC

Yep. That's rather harsh Freeman. I read it as "under debate if the laws of physics ever allow any kind of free energy."
So Steax was saying with 99.9% certainty it's impossible. But things like the big bang, higher dimensions or other one off, or unique events or discoveries in science could prove it wrong.
But it's like saying "it's impossible for anything to escape from a black hole". That's not totally true, but you would not consider Hawkins radiation in most conversations.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Mr_Rose » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:31 pm UTC

Technical Ben wrote:Yep. That's rather harsh Freeman. I read it as "under debate if the laws of physics ever allow any kind of free energy."
So Steax was saying with 99.9% certainty it's impossible. But things like the big bang, higher dimensions or other one off, or unique events or discoveries in science could prove it wrong.
But it's like saying "it's impossible for anything to escape from a black hole". That's not totally true, but you would not consider Hawkins radiation in most conversations.

How's this: The laws of physics will almost certainly never deny us a novel way to extract energy from a source, and we can keep looking for new sources indefinitely. We are equally certain that we will never discover any arrangement of physical materials that allow the extraction of energy from no source whatsoever.

All 'free energy' devices ever shown either exploit a novel (or more likely little used because it's been tried and discarded) method of energy extraction, or novel source of energy, or they are eventually shown to do other than claimed, either not functioning at all or functioning because of a hidden energy source (a confidence trick in other words). Anyone caught claiming to extract energy from nothing is typically dismissed as a kook because such a statement speaks to a lack of really basic physics, of the sort required to understand that magnets don't work by magic.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Steax » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:39 pm UTC

That might be a fair way to say it. And yeah, that's what I meant, as Technical Ben said it.

In any case, if it's somehow possible in some unknown loophole beyond our knowledge, there might just be a way to get free energy, because we just can't rule it out without making other assumptions of what we know. However, and more practically, there's pretty much a guarantee that some ingenious arrangement of current widely available devices won't give free energy. I think we all agree on that.
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Re: Free Energy

Postby BlackSails » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:45 pm UTC

Noether's theorem basically piledrives the idea of free energy through the floor.

(Unless you are ok with time dependance in physical laws)

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Re: Free Energy

Postby Steax » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:01 pm UTC

It's actually pretty entertaining to watch people try.

This youtube guy actually says himself that his problem is he can't get the "magnet to push against magnet A without entering the direct magnetic field of B", or, in other words, it's not working at all.

Scale "10 years" on the XKCD scale!
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Re: Free Energy

Postby Timtu » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:10 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:When someone mentions Free Energy, reach for your wallet, because you're being had.


Reach for your revolver.


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