Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

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Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby HiddenCounter » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:32 pm UTC

http://img15.imageshack.us/i/whub.jpg/

I asked if the bible mentions it, and then he implies that germ theory is false. And when I challenged his claim, he said I was being close minded.

I am not sure if this is the correct place, but germ theory is science, so.
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:11 am UTC

He's a nut. Plain, pure, and simple. In a world where you can buy a microscope and see a germ, in a world where the entire edifice of extremely successful medical science is built on germ theory, his position is flat-out untenable. I'll leave this here.
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:13 am UTC

I'm generally of two schools of thought for this sort of thing;
1) Ignore it. Idiots abound, no reason to give this guy more than a passing glance.
2) Spread it everywhere, disseminate it to every circle you can think of. It's important to laugh at those who are beyond the reach of rational dialog, and remind yourself that while your out there pursuing something of merit, someone, somewhere, hates you and your so called 'knowledge' that you know, gravity is a theory too.
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby pepsi » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:16 am UTC

In his defense his sources state that germs are like vultures. They feed on dead cells and therefore are found around disease but don't actually cause disease. Honestly it's a stupid idea but the concept of "God" is far stupider.

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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby rflrob » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:50 am UTC

pepsi wrote:In his defense his sources state that germs are like vultures. They feed on dead cells and therefore are found around disease but don't actually cause disease.


I can't seem to connect to the PDF that was linked to, but do they have an explanation for why, when you inject lab animals with relatively pure samples of the disease-causing organism, they become infected, unless they have some sort of treatment for the infection? Seems like otherwise, the basic protocol for testing drugs just wouldn't make sense.
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby ++$_ » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:48 am UTC

A pretty good video about germ theory denial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyodvwxe4mE

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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby AUGUGA » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:25 pm UTC

pepsi wrote:In his defense his sources state that germs are like vultures. They feed on dead cells and therefore are found around disease but don't actually cause disease. Honestly it's a stupid idea but the concept of "God" is far stupider.


No it isn't. I don't even believe in a god, but the idea that germs are like vultures is much stupider than the concept of god.
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby Ubik » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:33 pm UTC

That preface ends with this:
R. B. Pearson
January 15th, 1942
It's not exactly a new book, I would say.

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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby Technical Ben » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:18 pm UTC

I want to keep out of the discussion, as it is rather "polarised" to say the least. However. The Bible does mention quarantine methods, cleaning and checking for disease symptoms.
To deny germs, is to deny the Bible. If this guy does that, he is not acting logically, as he is against what he says he is for.

Do germs and the human immune system work in perfect balance? No. Can they? Maybe. We have symbiotic bacteria, but there is also deadly bacteria. I don't see why anything factual, should remove from a factual writing.
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby KrO2 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:31 pm UTC

I don't think I'd say that to deny germs is to deny the Bible, as the Bible does not state that diseases are caused by microscopic living things. The quarantine methods, hygiene, treatments, and such do fit better with a germ theory than with whatever non-germ theory he's supporting, but that probably sounds too much like using evidence to support a theory for this guy to accept it.

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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby Technical Ben » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:11 pm UTC

I suppose. I made the mistake of being as hyperbole as the comments I was trying to defuse.
As you said, they fit in with germ theory. Why argue over such things if they do not contradict? I'm pretty sure the dark side of the moon is not mentioned. But that does not mean it does not exist. :?
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby Foremorrow » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:18 am UTC

I haven't read the Theory in detail, but I understand the concept. I know a General Practitioner who seriously doubts the Germ Theory. I have found that there are a few things to consider when one finds another who appears to be ignorant or unintelligent, as ridiculous they may seem:

A great quotation from F. Scott Fitzgerald's book, The Great Gatsby:
In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.
"Whenever you feel like criticizing any one," he told me, "just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."


I also like to think of this of the Lays of the High One (Odin) from Sæamund Sigfusson's Elder Eddas:
124. I counsel thee ... words thou never shouldst exchange with a witless fool.

Edit:

Another good point from the Lays of the High One I like to remember is:
27. An unwise man, who among folk comes, had best be tight-lipped; for no one knows that he knows nothing, unless he talks too much. He who before knew nothing will still know nothing, talk he ever so much.

That is: unless you're sure you know about what you're talking, stay out of an argument.

Edit: Also, when you present an argument, and even if you're totally right, having done adequate research and sources of information, do not be condescending. I believe the only way to educate a fool, or at least convince a third person that you are correct, during an argument, is to provide your argument in a courteous manner. If he's being rude and calling you "close-minded" then it's very likely that he's not going to understand what you're saying and it's not worth talking to him.
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby Coffee » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:58 pm UTC

"Somebody's wrong on the internet!"
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:45 pm UTC

pepsi wrote:Honestly it's a stupid idea but the concept of "God" is far stupider.
No, it really isn't. Though this isn't the place for such a discussion, anyway.
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby Rackum » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:46 pm UTC

Coffee wrote:"Somebody's wrong on the internet!"

If this were only one wacky kook on the internet then it wouldn't bother me much, if at all. But apparently there are a surprising number of people with platforms from which they can spout this nonsense and people will listen and blindly follow based on their position. In the first case there is no cause for worry, but because it's not just nuts on the internet I am more than a little unnerved.

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Coffee » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:30 pm UTC

Sorry. Being on-call always makes me a bit flippant.

We can show deniers actual bacteria in an actual microscope. If they're not convinced by that I doubt any kind of reason or rhetoric would sway them.
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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Ubik » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:04 pm UTC

I have the impression they don't deny the existence of germs, but they don't believe they are the cause for illnesses. Instead the germs multiply as a result of a illness in their opinion, sort of like scavengers instead of predators.

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Coffee » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:13 pm UTC

That's not quite the flat earther level of ignorance then.
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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:58 pm UTC

It's a shockingly stubbornly ignorant position to take. Yes, Plasmodium infecting RBCs, clearly just taking advantage of the unknown disease that is Malaria....

Is this the same vein as people who believe HIV isn't the causative agent leading to AIDS? I've had zero exposure to this brand of idiocy.
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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Dopefish » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:46 pm UTC

Well, it does hammer down the whole "correlation is not causation" point pretty well in their defence.

Of course, that defence breaks down if they're claiming anything else causes anything, since if you're going to to believe something causes another thing, germs->illness seems like a fairly rational one.

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Coffee » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:58 am UTC

While correlation does not equal causation it tends to nod, wink, and point suggestively to a good starting place for causation.
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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Clever-Username » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:41 am UTC

If it weren't for ethics boards we could prove this easily. Identify a culture of said germs, keep a group of people in sterile isolation for several months, as to set them as a control. Split into 2 (or several) groups. Introduce 1 group to the 'germs', keep the other group neutral. Who develops the disease? Or am I just oversimplifying things.

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby ++$_ » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:17 am UTC

The experiment has been done many times over. Scientists routinely infect volunteers with colds, because it's the only way to test treatments for colds.

And yes, they do it by sticking rhinoviruses up the volunteers' noses.

If you think germs don't cause disease, you are going to have some trouble explaining this.

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby BlackSails » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:43 am UTC

They also do that with basically every disease around, in animal models. Its part of Koch's postulates.

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Clever-Username » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:12 pm UTC

Huh... you think an ethics board would have some issues with deliberately infecting people. Well then...

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:15 pm UTC

What do germ theory deniers say about Barry Marshall and Helicobacter pylori?
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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby BlackSails » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:34 pm UTC

Clever-Username wrote:Huh... you think an ethics board would have some issues with deliberately infecting people. Well then...


As long as its not dangerous, why?

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Alx_xlA » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:45 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Clever-Username wrote:Huh... you think an ethics board would have some issues with deliberately infecting people. Well then...


As long as its not dangerous, why?

And as long as they've given informed consent.
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby achan1058 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:33 am UTC

Foremorrow wrote:Edit: Also, when you present an argument, and even if you're totally right, having done adequate research and sources of information, do not be condescending. I believe the only way to educate a fool, or at least convince a third person that you are correct, during an argument, is to provide your argument in a courteous manner. If he's being rude and calling you "close-minded" then it's very likely that he's not going to understand what you're saying and it's not worth talking to him.
I disagree. If you be so condensing enough that he would dare not to voice his opinion ever again, it's a gain to society. I supposed if you are skilled enough, you can break his will/belief just by argument alone (not a straight forward argument, but by taking advantage of psychological weakness, etc.), but such skills are beyond me.
++$_ wrote:The experiment has been done many times over. Scientists routinely infect volunteers with colds, because it's the only way to test treatments for colds.

And yes, they do it by sticking rhinoviruses up the volunteers' noses.

If you think germs don't cause disease, you are going to have some trouble explaining this.
Maybe we should recommend those deniers to put themselves into these experiments. Since they don't believe in the germ theory, they have no reasons to get sick, so they should be willing to do so, right? And if they do get sick, they can benefit the society by being human subjects.

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby BlackSails » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:46 am UTC

You cant get them in the experiments, because they would need to provide informed consent, which they couldnt do, since they wouldnt believe what the researcher told them.

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Alx_xlA » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:27 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:You cant get them in the experiments, because they would need to provide informed consent, which they couldnt do, since they wouldnt believe what the researcher told them.

You don't have to believe anything to give informed consent. "Informed" merely means that they've been told what will be done to them, and that they claim to understand it.
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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby konaya » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:34 pm UTC

"I have here a culture of Yersinia pestis in holy water. Care for a drink?"

Yes or no; science wins either way.

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Angua » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:41 pm UTC

Alx_xlA wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
Clever-Username wrote:Huh... you think an ethics board would have some issues with deliberately infecting people. Well then...


As long as its not dangerous, why?

And as long as they've given informed consent.
You can get good money to be infected with malaria after taking the vaccine or whatever they've developed in Oxford. I also heard about one they where they wanted to give you typhoid (and so had some serious restrictions on who they would let in the study) (also paid well).
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Re: Guy on facebook page deny's germ theory

Postby Uber_Apple » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:09 pm UTC

++$_ wrote:A pretty good video about germ theory denial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyodvwxe4mE


I had a very strong suspiscion that the video would be a C0nc0rdance one just before I clicked 8)

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby thethirdchimpanzee » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:44 pm UTC

I recently came across this germ theory denialism for the first time myself on a Coast 2 Coast AM Facebook page. I was pretty shocked, I mean, this is on the level of Flat Earthers - but apparently it's becoming quite popular with both anti-vaxers and/or "naturopathic"(sp?) folks...

*sigh*

They instead embrace something called "Biological Terrian Theory": http://thehealthadvantage.com/biologicalterrain.html as well as some other kooky stuff: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/08/yes_there_really_are_people_who_dont_acc.php

*double sigh*

I weep for the species.

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby minno » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:50 am UTC

As horrible as it would be, I would love to challenge some of these people to use their favorite quack cures when their own lives are on the line. Unfortunately, these people seem to be more willing to use it on other people.

I remember a story about a year ago on the local news here in Minnesota. A farm kid who was around 10-14 was diagnosed with cancer. His parents were adamant that he wouldn't get chemotherapy, and his mom even took him and went on the run for a month or so before the police found them and forced the kid to have chemo. He lived and the chemo cured his cancer, but it's infuriating to see the same kind of thing happening with the anti-vaccine people and all of the other quack science cures.
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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Whelan » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:04 am UTC

The Health Advantage wrote:The germ – or microbian - theory of disease was popularized by Louis Pasteur (1822-1895), the inventor of pasteurization. This theory says that there are fixed, external germs (or microbes) which invade the body and cause a variety of separate, definable diseases. In order to get well, you need to identify and then kill whatever germ made you sick. The tools generally employed are drugs, surgery, radiation and chemotherapy. Prevention includes the use of vaccines as well as drugs, which - theoretically at least - work by keeping germs at bay.
I'm probably just uninformed, but what infections are treated with surgery, radiation or chemo? Unless the definition of chemotherapy being used here includes drugs, but then why mention it twice?
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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Link » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:36 am UTC

Whelan wrote:
The Health Advantage wrote:The germ – or microbian - theory of disease was popularized by Louis Pasteur (1822-1895), the inventor of pasteurization. This theory says that there are fixed, external germs (or microbes) which invade the body and cause a variety of separate, definable diseases. In order to get well, you need to identify and then kill whatever germ made you sick. The tools generally employed are drugs, surgery, radiation and chemotherapy. Prevention includes the use of vaccines as well as drugs, which - theoretically at least - work by keeping germs at bay.
I'm probably just uninformed, but what infections are treated with surgery, radiation or chemo? Unless the definition of chemotherapy being used here includes drugs, but then why mention it twice?

Not sure about radiation and chemo, but I know that necrotising fasciitis is treated with surgery.

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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby Angua » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:57 am UTC

They may not be just talking about germs there - but saying that for any diseases, the fundamentals for finding out how to treat it depend on first finding out what it is, and then taking appropriate steps (some deep abcesses, and in extreme cases, typhoid, need treatment with surgery, and knowing which bug it is greatly depends on treatment). If you know what is making you sick is cancer, then you take the appropriate steps to treat that as well with what measures are most appropriate.
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Re: Guy on facebook page denies germ theory

Postby frezik » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:01 pm UTC

These things tend to start with something that's reasonable enough, but without being properly critical of further jumps in logic.

1) Start with the idea that big pharmaceuticals do things in their own self-interest (no problem so far).
2) Next, find out about specific cases where they've munged or faked data to get a drug past the FDA (has certainly happened).
3) Now start being more skeptical of all drugs (no problem yet, but icebergs ahead).
4) Could BigPhrama be covering up problems with vaccines ( . . . )?
5) Vaccines cause autism (uh oh).
6) Vaccines don't work at all (going deep into Moon Hoax territory).
7) Germ Theory is wrong (shot past Moon Hoaxers and having regular chats with Marshall Applewhite).

Few would ever jump directly from the first step to the last, but plenty end up there, anyway. It's science that tells us what went wrong with the drug testing in step 2, and it's science that tells us why steps 5 through 7 are nutty.
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