Brain entrainment

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antonfire
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Re: Brain entrainment

Postby antonfire » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:22 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Except for, you know, that dialog in which qetzal cited articles, and we commented on their findings, which were that it has no effect. Or that part where I linked an example of the type of websites that talk about the audio entrainment programs, which also claim to allow astral projection.

But good contribution!
Fine, the whole thread except qetzal (and now some others). Any complaining about the guy failing to support his assertions is pretty ironic when it comes from someone whose first two posts on the topic are literally "No" and "No. There isn't". But good contribution!


To bring the signal to noise ratio of this post up, here is an article which reports concrete statistically significant differences in performance when comparing two types of binaural entrainment. It's not hard to use Google Scholar to find others.

Though, yes, as qetzal says, even if you accept the results of this experiment at face value, it really only demonstrates that playing some sounds at you while you're doing stuff affects how well you do stuff, which we all know to be true anyway. The claim that this works by fiddling with your brain waves somehow is pretty dubious, but not outside the realm of possibility.
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Re: Brain entrainment

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:49 am UTC

antonfire wrote:failing to support his assertions

I linked examples of the ludicrous claims. You can look at it yourself.

antonfire wrote:statistically significant differences in performance

Which is not what the OP was claiming. These sounds are not affecting your mood.
antonfire wrote:Though, yes, as qetzal says, even if you accept the results of this experiment at face value, it really only demonstrates that playing some sounds at you while you're doing stuff affects how well you do stuff, which we all know to be true anyway. The claim that this works by fiddling with your brain waves somehow is pretty dubious, but not outside the realm of possibility.

Your most significant contribution was agreeing with what's already been said.
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Re: Brain entrainment

Postby antonfire » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:12 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:These sounds are not affecting your mood.
If you can't be bothered to read the literature, I'm not going to do it for you.
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Re: Brain entrainment

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:21 am UTC

Mm, and evidently you cannot follow the thread, nor look at any of the myriad hits that come up when you actually do a search for this stuff. Like that bit where it's been mentioned that papers from around the 90's have found stuff, but more recent stuff has found zero correlationbetween mood and sound.

Like most psuedoscientific quackery, there's a mountain of data that the thing does nothing, and a scattering of data that says it does.
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Re: Brain entrainment

Postby antonfire » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:24 am UTC

Cool maybe you should have linked that stuff instead of saying "No", or said something actually true instead of saying "No there isn't." That or not bitched about other people repeating assertions without giving any support.
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Re: Brain entrainment

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:04 am UTC

So let me get this straight: you accused me of having not read your one link, in the face of likely having not linked anything else previously linked, and then said
antonfire wrote:If you can't be bothered to read the literature, I'm not going to do it for you.

Which is a fine accusation, except all I did at pubmed was type in 'binaural beat mood' and look at the abstracts from the first page.

While I'm impressed that you gracefully handled counter evidence, I'd suggest not telling someone to do the literature search when you haven't yourself.

antonfire wrote:That or not bitched about other people repeating assertions without giving any support.

I matched the literature search that was given to support my claims. The OP linked wikipedia articles and a website to download a program to produce the beats, and I linked another site that made claims about the program.
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Re: Brain entrainment

Postby antonfire » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:40 am UTC

So "Listening to the binaural beat tapes resulted in a significant reduction in the anxiety score reported daily in patients' diaries" and "There was an increase of the Profile of Mood States depression subscale in the experimental condition relative to the control condition (p = 0.02)." is zero correlation between mood and sound? At best, you are quite reckless with words.

More likely, you haven't even looked at the abstracts of the papers you are linking very closely. Two of them directly contradict the statement that there is no correlation between mood and sound, and the other one is about heart rate and blood pressure, not mood!

By the way, googling for "yoga" also gives you a bunch of quasispiritual new wave bullshit; that does not mean that people who claim it can affect your mood and make you more flexible are wrong.


Yeah, I get how you feel, people pretty much say whatever they want to believe and it's frustrating. Responding in kind is not terribly productive, even if you are a big James Randi fan.
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Re: Brain entrainment

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:14 pm UTC

antonfire wrote:[some findings] is zero correlation between mood and sound?

No, like I said, there are a handful of papers that report findings. Take a look at either the date, the journal, or the author. The majority of papers, especially the recent ones in more reputable sounding journals (Journal of Neuroscience vs Journal of Auditory Neurological Healing as made up examples), typically find no correlations, or correlations with only a few things. Additionally, if you take a look, the same couple of people routinely report correlations.

I suppose not terribly surprisingly, a couple recent journals have found physiological effects, such as reduced blood pressure, blood sugar levels or heart rate. I say not surprisingly, because I know for a fact that some music has this effect on me, or the opposite effect on me. In that case, are these sounds affecting my mood? Sure. Could that be because I've listened to these songs while falling asleep/getting fired up for a jog, since I was in highschool? Likely.
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Re: Brain entrainment

Postby Velifer » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:25 pm UTC

scratch123 wrote:I really can't understand why this is working for people in real life and on youtube but not people here. Its not like they expect it to work either. What I do is to tell them to listen to the sound (headache treatment 3 from the download) and then I ask them for there opinion about it.

It's titled "headache treatment 3" and you are astounded that people report that it has positive effects on headaches?
Velifer wrote:You know, I totally believe you.

You're now submitting it to a different, and far more skeptical, audience. The placebo effect can work even when people know they're getting a sham treatment, but it doesn't work as well. And this thread is getting some people really worked up about HOW to argue about this, which is causing headaches.
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Re: Brain entrainment

Postby scratch123 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:43 am UTC

Velifer wrote:
scratch123 wrote:I really can't understand why this is working for people in real life and on youtube but not people here. Its not like they expect it to work either. What I do is to tell them to listen to the sound (headache treatment 3 from the download) and then I ask them for there opinion about it.

It's titled "headache treatment 3" and you are astounded that people report that it has positive effects on headaches?
Velifer wrote:You know, I totally believe you.

You're now submitting it to a different, and far more skeptical, audience. The placebo effect can work even when people know they're getting a sham treatment, but it doesn't work as well. And this thread is getting some people really worked up about HOW to argue about this, which is causing headaches.


The thing about headache treatment 3 is that I am not completely convinced it does anything for headaches. I just like the sound and I have found other people like it as well. Maybe I am just not being skeptical of these sounds enough because I like them so much. This probably applies to people on youtube as well and the placebo effect does have some part in it. I can still kind of see where the authors of them are coming from when they make a claim about them effecting mood though. Maybe its some weird type of synesthesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia). If songs can have positive and negative moods associated with them I am sure other sounds can as well. I really want to hear what people here think about the relationship between music and your mood. Do people here believe there is no connection between these 2 things either?

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Re: Brain entrainment

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:05 pm UTC

That phenomenon is not what you think it is. So, no, it has nothing to do with some people being taken by the placebo affect or enhancing their penis size with these sounds.
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