What is your current housing situation?

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What is your current housing situation?

Live for free with family
19
15%
Rent from family
8
6%
Rent a room you share with strangers
0
No votes
Rent your own room in a home shared with strangers
27
21%
Rent an apartment of your own
35
27%
Rent a whole house of your own
7
5%
Own (with mortgage) a home, but rent land (e.g. condo, mobile home, etc)
5
4%
Own (free and clear) a home, but rent land (e.g. condo, mobile home, etc)
1
1%
Own (with mortgage) a home on its own land
25
19%
Own (free and clear) a home on its own land
3
2%
 
Total votes: 130

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addams
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby addams » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:52 pm UTC

Brace wrote:I will be "trying to find a cupboard to hide in at the CU library while the security guard does his last walk-around so I can sleep indoors" homeless. Probably only until October though. There is no family summer place, and if there were I wouldn't have access to it since I'm estranged from my family as a combination of being trans, not being very forgiving, and my mother being a psychotic narcissist who apparently told my extended family I'm on drugs. I guess because of the weight loss drugs I tried once, and the fact that I once listened to a song with the word "cocaine" in it.

Goodness.
That goes in the Families and Their Problems Thread.

Families.
Worse than Friends, when they Go Bad.

At least we understand misunderstandings with Friends.
Misunderstandings with Family seems Wrong.

It's not Wrong.
It's Common.

Like the French Joke?
A clear Majority can't be Wrong?

Six degrees?
What did you get six degrees in?

Do you collect degrees the way some people collect Rocks?
Each one is so cool and so much fun to get? And; They make a nice display?

In my living situation a few things have been left behind by previous residents.
That almost always happens. It is no big deal. Use those items or toss them. (right?)

I think I found another, Box of Rocks.

I opened the door, saw what may be a Box of Rocks.
I shut the door and walked away stunned.

I refuse to have unnamed Rocks in Boxes!
Of course, I may not be man enough to do anything about it.

Another Box of Rocks?
It can't be.

A second glance tells me,
'It might be a Box of Clocks.'

Is that better?
What, the fuck, am I going to do with a Box of Clocks??
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Giant Speck » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:29 am UTC

addams wrote:The days are getting shorter, on the mainland.


I like having a little bit of privacy and I don't always like having direct sunlight coming into the living room.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby addams » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:46 pm UTC

Giant Speck wrote:
addams wrote:The days are getting shorter, on the mainland.


I like having a little bit of privacy and I don't always like having direct sunlight coming into the living room.

ok.
Each to his or her own.

Have you tried a small mirror with a good prism setting on it?
Those are so nice.. Set it in a shaft of sunlight.

The rainbows show up in the shadows.
The mirror sends them into interesting places.

You have sun.
Maybe there are things to do with it;
Other than baking Tourests.

oh. Did you get Wind on your island?
I espect some on mine.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Castor87 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:54 am UTC

Right now I am living alone in a rented home, as i am away from my family.

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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:05 am UTC

So since I posted this poll I've been thinking that the options I included in it really weren't inclusive or organized as well as I wished they had been, and I've been trying to think of some way of better organizing the options into some kind of chart — not to repost the poll, since I can't very well post poll options in a chart, but just to sort of get my own head around the kind of data I've wanted to gather. Tonight I think I finally came up with something satisfactory:

Image

For clarity: "Private room, shared living space" means something where you've got your own bedroom but share some other housing facilities like a bathroom or kitchen or living room; "Private living space, shared building" means something like an apartment or condo, where all your facilities including kitchen and bathroom are in your own private space but you share walls or even halls with other such spaces; and "Private building, shared land" means something like a mobile home in a park or a guest cottage on a larger land, where your living space doesn't share any walls or halls with others' but you've still got to cross someone else's property (parking lot, yard, etc) to get from the public street to your private space.

And "Own but still paying rent / fees indefinitely" means something like a mobile home or condo, where you are renting the use of the land or the shared facilities (including HOA fees, etc), and possibly interest on the loan you're buying with too, but at least some of those charges will continue forever with no possible end; while "Own but still paying interest temporarily" means the usual home loan situation that will eventually end once you're done paying it off. Neither of those or "Own with no rent / fees / interest" are meant to exclude property taxes, since to my knowledge there basically isn't any practically possible way to acquire the allodial title that that would require.

One thing I wish I could include on this chart somehow, but couldn't figure out how, is whether a given space has room enough to share willingly, as in, to have a spouse and kids or just a guest room, as opposed to barely enough space for just yourself. When I set out to make this chart I was thinking that would be the last step on the "privacy" (vertical) axis, except you could have a one-bedroom apartment/condo (private space, shared building) or a multi-bedroom one, a one-bedroom mobile home/guest cottage (private building, shared land) or a multi-bedroom one, and I guess in principle a one-bedroom real house on its own land or the usual multi-bedroom ones. And I guess in principle there could even be huge multi-person studios, maybe? Any way, I'm not sure how to include that in there.

Two other obvious factors sort of parallel to the two axes of this, which could include the "how many people do you have space for" question in it, would be size and price. But that would be a four-dimensional chart and I can't draw one of them.

So, in my personal history I went back and forth from (counting right then down from the top left) [1,1] to [1,2] for the first 20 years of my life (depending on whether my parents had space enough at the time for me to not share a room with them), then to [2,2] for the next 10 years of my life (renting rooms in strangers' homes in my twenties), and now I've jumped to [3,4] (a mobile home I own and live in by myself, but on land shared with other mobile homes, on I will perpetually owe rent until I move), and I'm desperately aiming to get to [4,5] or at least [3,5] (hell I'd settle for [2,5]) without compromising the feasibility of reaching [5,5] with enough time before I die to actually enjoy it. Unfortunately by all appearances any additional privacy in the short term would cost so much as to sacrifice security in the long term.
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SecondTalon
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:05 pm UTC

Now we know.

At any rate, I like the new grid.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Chen » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:23 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:And "Own but still paying rent / fees indefinitely" means something like a mobile home or condo, where you are renting the use of the land or the shared facilities (including HOA fees, etc), and possibly interest on the loan you're buying with too, but at least some of those charges will continue forever with no possible end; while "Own but still paying interest temporarily" means the usual home loan situation that will eventually end once you're done paying it off. Neither of those or "Own with no rent / fees / interest" are meant to exclude property taxes, since to my knowledge there basically isn't any practically possible way to acquire the allodial title that that would require.


I question lumping condo/HOA fees in with the paying forever thing. For example in my current condo, the fees go towards all the maintenance, repairs, upgrades that would need to be done in the building anyways. It's sort of a false savings to consider the last "no fees" column to not include this type of cost, because realistically its there. Sure you're not paying $100/month but you're paying to have snow removed instead, or in 20 years you're paying the $30000 to replace the roof or whatever.

The grid itself is nice though :)

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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:47 pm UTC

Having to pay is an important distinction. I mean, yeah, you might normally have to take care of that anyway, but you have much more flexibility in how you do so. Maybe you're broke, so you shovel snow yourself instead of paying a service or what not.

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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:06 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Having to pay is an important distinction. I mean, yeah, you might normally have to take care of that anyway, but you have much more flexibility in how you do so. Maybe you're broke, so you shovel snow yourself instead of paying a service or what not.

Yeah, that's a very important distinction to me. It's the difference between "I went unemployed, broke and starving for many months and had to put off maintenance on my house for a while" and "I went unemployed, broke and starving for many months and got thrown out onto the street on top of it because I couldn't pay my landload/HOA". That horizontal axis is not about expense, it's about security: how much is the place YOURS irrevocably? What could cause you to lose it?

If you're living free at someone else's whim, they can throw you out at a moment's notice.

If you're renting, your landlord can throw you out either when your lease ends or with some legally-mandated prior notice.

If you "own" but still have to pay ongoing fees of some kind, you can eventually be kicked out and forced to sell if you don't pay up.

If you "own" but are still paying off a loan, you can be foreclosed upon if you don't pay up, at least until you complete the loan.

If you own outright with no rent/interest/fees, pretty much only government action can kick you out.

And it's more or less impossible most places to get any more secure than that, so I didn't think "allodial title" was worth including as a column.
Last edited by Pfhorrest on Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:40 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby PolakoVoador » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:27 pm UTC

My history would be: [1,1] living with parents, sharing room with sister; [1,2] living with parents, but moved to a bigger place with my own room; [2,2] renting an apartment together with two friends; [2,3] renting an apartment alone.

I've been slowly going down and right, but I can't see the position changing anytime soon. Whenever I have enough money to maybe start paying for my own place, I usually choose to wait and see if I can travel somewhere with it :P Maybe future me will hate past me for not making a "safer" choice.

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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:32 pm UTC

I think maybe you mean [3,2] for the last one? [2,3] would be like… owning a bedroom-only condo with a communal kitchen or something, a situation I've never hear of.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby ucim » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:46 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:That horizontal axis is not about expense, it's about security: how much is the place YOURS irrevocably? What could cause you to lose it?[...]
Good rendering. How about the vertical axis? Specifically the issue of living with people, and/or being dependent on people for your housing situation - because there are many kinds of "living with people" and I'm not sure they rank linearly across whatever it is you're trying to measure here.

Consider roommates - they can be strangers, friends, lovers, spouses (spice?), blood family (with various relative power rankings)... and even in the case of living with a spouse, it might make a difference to some whether they are the breadwinner or the dependent one (if there's an income disparity).

There's "living with people you want to live with", and "living with people you have to live with", and "living alone because you prefer it", and "living alone because you can't find somebody to share [this part of] your life with". You could perhaps put these in some ranking order, but would this express the thing you're trying to measure on the vertical axis?

I suppose the best way to do this would be to ask yourself what it is about privacy that you value. I think that's what you're trying to do with your vertical axis, but different people will value privacy differently. (Some would prefer to live with somebody, even "just a roommate", and others would prefer to live alone (even above getting married). That might make correlating other people's vertical movement with your own ideals problematic.

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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:06 am UTC

For the vertical axis I was letting my previous clarification about "family" imply the meaning: "privacy" is freedom from involuntarily having people in your space. If there are people in your space by your choice (even if it's also "their space" — so long as the choice was mutual to share that space, not because you have to, but because you want to) then that's still "private" by my meaning.

As I mentioned, I did want to include something more than that too, but couldn't figure out how to incorporate it into the same axis: a scale from "so little space you have to share some with others even if you don't want to", through "enough space that you don't have to share any, but not enough that you can share it if you want to", to "enough space that you can share it with others if you want to". But I couldn't combine that with the different degrees of sharing on one axis, as I said, because three or four of the options on that vertical axis could be just big enough for you, or big enough to share with someone if you chose; and if I added an extra row for each of those options, how would I order them? Should a 2br apartment come before or after a 1br guest cottage or mobile home? How about a 1br house on its own land, if such a thing existed?
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby ucim » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:02 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:...If there are people in your space by your choice [...] then that's still "private" by my meaning.
So, living with a spouse (and children) does not count as shared space, but living with parents and siblings probably does. Works for me.

Pfhorrest wrote:But I couldn't combine that with the different degrees of sharing on one axis, as I said, because [reasons]
"Amount of space" and "freedom from having to share space" are related but different, and "actual living arrangement" isn't a good proxy for fine differences between them. What I think you'd benefit from asking (in a matrix) is "how well does the space I have meet my privacy needs", and comparing that with "how much space do I have", as a separate question from the privacy/security matrix you've posted. Whether you'd need to do this depends on whether or not you care only about how satisfied people are with their space, or you also care just what that space is that they are satisfied or dissatisfied with.

In fact, it might be interesting (with a large enough dataset) to do a similar matrix with the security proxy: "How satisfied am I with the rent/mortgage/own situation I am in" x "which one am I in".

Security and privacy is a tradeoff (against money). If you could improve just one, which would it be? (Obviously the answer would depend on where in the first matrix you were, as well as your relative valuation of the two).

Jose
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby addams » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:45 pm UTC

Hell-o Phorist;
I’d like to talk about my Living Situation.
But, I can’t.

I don’t fit into any of your Boxes.

Maybe, we can discuss, ‘Living Situations’.
Kind of a general, ‘Thing’.

Just a lot of words on a computer screen.
Discreet. Behind a Spoiler. Off Topic.

Spoiler:
Have you ever heard of Jane Addams?
No. Phorret; Jane Addams was no close blood relation to me.

She came by the name honestly.
She was an Aristocrat.

She had Ideas.
People call it ‘Social Engineering’ today.

She did not call it Social Engineering.
It seemed like a Good Idea, at the Time, Phoreest.

What I think, I have learned is,

“They will not Drag You Down.”
“Your presence and example will not Elevate them.”

“You will confuse and anger them.”
“They will deepen your commitment to segregation.”


yes. Phorrest;
A big ole’ Liberal like you….

One day, with a far off look in your eye, will say,
“Strict Segregation is The Way I want to live.”

“By Skin Color, Phorest?” I might ask.
You laugh in response. “No. By Test Score.”

Then, in the Freedom and Privacy of Strict Segregation,
You and I can discuss ways of offering High Test Scores to The Masses.

How would we do that, Phorrest?
We could Sell Them!!

What a Great Idea!
Anyone with enough money to buy High Test Scores,
has Got to be smart enough to have around!

It’s a Perfect Idea, Phorest!
Let’s Take It To Committee!!

If we write it up Right,
The US Congress will sign it.

Maybe that is Why I don’t have any Friends, Phorrest.

I don’t blame Jane Addams.
She was attempting to make the world a better place.

The way I heard the Plan was as Follows.
Highly functional people and the fucking Poor,
Were to Live Together.
In the same Neighborhood.


ech. It was a little more complex than that.
Still…The example of Class was to be Elevating to The Masses.

It was a Noble Effort.
It was The Hindenburg of Nobel Efforts.

Maybe, I should look Jane Adams up.

She will be in Wikipedia.
I wonder if they are kind to her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:46 pm UTC

I just upgraded to [3,3]. I bought a condo but there is a limited maintenance fee.
It was cheaper to buy than to rent the same condo.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby addams » Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:43 pm UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:I just upgraded to [3,3]. I bought a condo but there is a limited maintenance fee.
It was cheaper to buy than to rent the same condo.

That is done, because the Human animal will Piss on Someone else's stuff, but most will not Piss on their own.
If they Give You Money to own it, it is better for You, Your Neighbors, The Community, Your State, Your Nation and The World.

It's called Pride of Ownership.

I like owning things, too.
You are in a condo.

The Rules are Strict in Condos.
You can't paint the OutSide; Can you?

In a Condo, everything has to go to Committee.

Now that you are an Owner;
Where do you want the Mural?
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Neil_Boekend » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:55 pm UTC

Nope. Usually it's cheaper to rent than to buy here (if you don't count the owning)
It's just that house prices are currently really low, interest is really really really low and rent is slightly higher than before.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Bekah » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:54 pm UTC

I'm currently (1,5) but have been every box between (1,1) and (2,5) over my lifetime.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:02 pm UTC

Sort of tangentially related to this subject, of housing statistics anyway...

Does anyone know of a way to find out what the total value of all housing in the United States is (which I will divide by population to get mean value of housing owned per person); and also, probably more tricky, the median value of housing owned per person? Not the median house price, as that excludes everyone who doesn't own a house, and splits up the houses of people who own multiple. I want to know how much house does the average (mean or median) person own.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Zohar » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:21 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Does anyone know of a way to find out what the total value of all housing in the United States is

Have you already checked out the census website? Not the most easily accessible one, but it's a fantastic resource, and might help with that, depending on whether or not it's asked.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Chen » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:43 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Sort of tangentially related to this subject, of housing statistics anyway...

Does anyone know of a way to find out what the total value of all housing in the United States is (which I will divide by population to get mean value of housing owned per person); and also, probably more tricky, the median value of housing owned per person? Not the median house price, as that excludes everyone who doesn't own a house, and splits up the houses of people who own multiple. I want to know how much house does the average (mean or median) person own.


You could probably get the latter by determining how many have houses compared to those who don't, and just use all those who don't as having a value of 0.

Mean value of housing per person is going to be a bit weird though. Depending on where you are in the country the value (and thus cost) of housing is dramatically different.

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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:53 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Does anyone know of a way to find out what the total value of all housing in the United States is

Have you already checked out the census website? Not the most easily accessible one, but it's a fantastic resource, and might help with that, depending on whether or not it's asked.

That helps some, thanks!

It was very easy to find the number of houses in the country, about 132,057,805. If we were then to make the probably-not-justified assumption that the mean housing price (which I still haven't found) is close to the median (which is easy to find, about $188,900 according to the first Google result, which if a HuffPo article), and multiply those then divide by the US population (about 318,900,000), then the mean amount of house owned per person would be... about $78,224.

Oh hey, I just found this PDF on the census site via a Google search, which is a bit out of date (latest entry is 2010), but it shows that median and mean (I'm assuming they mean "mean" when they say "average") do track fairly closely. Taking the ratio of the two from the most recent year (about 1.23:1) and applying that to the above, we'd get a mean amount of house owned per person of about $96,213. Call it $100k per person to round it off. So there's about $100k of housing in existence for every person in the country. Which I guess makes sense in light of the average price being about twice that and the average household size being about two. But then... where are all the renters in these numbers? First Google result suggests that about a third of Americans rent. Do the remaining 2/3 all own 3/2 the mean amount of housing to offset them?

Chen wrote:You could probably get the latter by determining how many have houses compared to those who don't, and just use all those who don't as having a value of 0.

But then what about the people who own more than one house? And the varying amount of housing owned by those who do. If all and only that third of the population who rents own 0, that doesn't say whether the rest of them all own $150k, or whether most of them only own $25k and a tiny handful of people own millions each. If the non-owning population was over 50% (which our poll here says it is, but Google says otherwise) then that would tell us the median easily (it would fall within that 0% range and so be 0%), but other than that, that doesn't really help as far as I can see.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:01 pm UTC

This reminded me that this thread exists and that I should update my status. I'm now renting a house with some friends. There didn't seem to be an option for this particularly well in the poll so I just went with the "rent a whole house" one because it seemed closest.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:28 am UTC

I would actually count that as "renting a room in a house shared with strangers" for my purposes, assuming each of you and your friends gets one room, and you share the common living spaces. Remember that "strangers" in this context means "not the family you were born into or the one you created", i.e. not parents, siblings, SOs, children, etc, but any other people.

For most of my adult life I and other people (of varying degrees of friendship or enmity) were joint tenants on a single lease renting an entire house. But it wasn't me renting that house for my (nonexistent) family that I was the head of, so I wouldn't say that I was renting that whole house. We collectively rented the whole house, but each of us only had one bedroom of space that was all our own. I'd guess the situation you describe is the same?
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby ucim » Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:47 am UTC

I'm not at all sure that the question you are asking would answer the question you have.

To get any meaningful information, you'd need to do some (lots of!) localization. It's like comparing income from one country to the next, without taking into account the taxes and government benefits that are included, and without normalizing to the price of apples and the availability of jobs in that area.

How much money per house (without even considering the size of the house!) is not meaningful unless you can trade money for a house, and that only happens in a particular place. Housing costs have a huge spread (NYC vs mid Kansas, for example), but they tend to move with the job opportunities there. Prime NYC or Silicon Valley space is expensive, because it can be, because of the jobs, and the jobs have to pay more because of the general cost of living in that area. You can't have a $200,000 Silicon Valley job and live in a $30K Kansas home very easily. (yeah, telecommuing, but also face time). You gotta fish where the fish are.

Also, do you consider investment property to be "owning a home"? Somebody who lives in a mansion and owns seven apartment buildings that she rents out, owns what? One home? Eight? Seventy four (counting each unit as "one")?

There are also significant differences in mobility involved here. Owning a home implies a desire to settle in one place (and develop some roots), renting gives the freedom to move easily if conditions change, and lets you keep your money in a more liquid state.

So... what is the underlying question? I think you need to look more broadly to gain good insight into it.

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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:21 am UTC

*headdesk*

I managed not to read that one (despite looking desperately for a better fit).
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Anti Spiral » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:32 am UTC

I'm currently living with my parents again after a short spell renting. In the process of buying my own place though.

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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Zohar » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:40 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Oh hey, I just found this PDF on the census site via a Google search, which is a bit out of date (latest entry is 2010)

A full census questionnaire is only done once every ten years, so that would be the latest. The census bureau does conduct other surveys between those years, but not necessarily regarding housing.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:58 pm UTC

But that PDF has entries year-by-year going back before 2010, not just 2010, 2000, 1990, etc.
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Re: What is your current housing situation?

Postby Zohar » Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:10 pm UTC

Ah, I didn't look in it. Maybe it's one of the other surveys they do, or records they get from somewhere.
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