Quick question about flying into the USA

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ZeroSum
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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby ZeroSum » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:20 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:considering the terrorist watch list is in the millions, i wouldnt be surprised if they are wasting vast amounts resources to do that. dont be so trusting.
The ACLU claims 900,000 names in February. And even then the FBI and the government acknowledge that it's too big and in no small part inaccurate. It's not taken as canon that anyone on the terrorist watch list is a terrorist intent on blowing up the plane they're boarding.

us citizens are being held at airports because of macbook airs. i mean yeah the worst is they miss their flight, but still, security isnt as smart as you think it is.
One person, who has a history of being antagonistic to the TSA (and probably was none too kind during that incident) was held up enough to miss a flight.

Though I'm thinking of making a "Kip Hawley is an idiot" bag, though even so when you read the TSA's explanation for why they allow three-ounce bottles in a one-quart bag it's actually quite reasonable: It's easy to remember and easy to follow without causing an extreme inconvenience while still allowing a simple search procedure.

Also, not sure if it's stale but this link includes a Know What To Expect.

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby ++$_ » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:22 pm UTC

Moo wrote:The Telegraph
This is exactly why I say it pays to be careful. From the article:
Michael Chertoff wrote:The fear has always been the so-called 'clean skin' - that's a person whose documents are completely legitimate, are not forged.
So if you have a completely legitimate passport, but you've been to Iran and Pakistan, what do you think security's reaction will be to that? "Hmm. Here's a British citizen, legitimate credentials, visited Islamic countries. Must be a 'clean skin.' Put'im on the watch list, Joe."

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby segmentation fault » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:28 pm UTC

ZeroSum wrote:And even then the FBI and the government acknowledge that it's too big and in no small part inaccurate. It's not taken as canon that anyone on the terrorist watch list is a terrorist intent on blowing up the plane they're boarding.


then why have it?

One person, who has a history of being antagonistic to the TSA (and probably was none too kind during that incident) was held up enough to miss a flight.


oh there have been more, not involving macbook airs, but similar situations of being held up by security for stupid reasons. and i wouldnt be too kind either.
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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby ZeroSum » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:35 pm UTC

Well, before it started ballooning out of control the terrorist watch list is a good idea: "These are people we have on record as being connected to bad things. Please make sure you don't miss any bombs in their suitcases."

Now it has turned to: "These are the names of people we have on record. Please make sure you don't miss anything."

It's not a bad idea in and of itself, it has just moved beyond its useful scope and needs to be pared back to that, not done away with entirely.

As for delays for stupidity, why not simply use Hanlon's razor: "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice."

I'm not saying the TSA is perfect. I'm certain there are plenty of ways it could be done better. However, being obstructionist is not going to better the system. Be vocal where your voice will be heard -- tell your congressman or, if international, whatever your equivalent is so that the right people can hear the issue.

Step one of change is never civil disobedience and we're definitely still at the step one stage.

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby lesliesage » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:59 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:considering the terrorist watch list is in the millions, i wouldnt be surprised if they are wasting vast amounts resources to do that. dont be so trusting.
Ha. Ok. So around 0.01% of the world is on the watch list. Well, something like a third of the population IS Chinese/Pakistani/Iranian/Indian. And everyone is telling a law-abiding (and painful to say it) white British tourist to get a lawyer because she's visited.

Too bad I can't bet the entirety of my life's savings on steep odds that no one that any of you ever have met, or ever will meet, will ever need a lawyer for a trip to the US. "Safe-side" arguers here would be better off wearing a motorcycle helmet while driving.

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby regua » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:07 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
regua wrote:The persistence of the US government in such highly thorough customs control and all these regulations, combined with the fact that 99% of the US population are actually immigrants is quite paradoxical.


Well.. no, that's not accurate. It's more accurate to say that 99% of the population of the US are either immigrants or descended from immigrants.

Yeah, that's what I wanted to say. The US is a nation of immigrants, and yet they have one of the most restricted regulations concerning entering their country, let alone emigrating to it.

During the communistic rules in Poland, many mothers would illegally get to the US to give birth to their children there. That way, thanks to the strange jus soli, the children had American citizenship (BTW, what's the adjective derived from "United States"? "American" seems to fit the context most, but it's quite ambiguous) and the mothers could easily stay in the US. This seems so easy compared to other people who migrate to the US, work there for umpteen years, and still are refused the citizenship.

What's paradoxical is that the US thinks of itself as the Land of the Free and the Land of Opportunity for Anyone, yet despite frequent immigration waves is still pretty xenophobic. Pretty much the kids and grandkids of an immigration wave spend their time hating the immigration wave that occurs in their lifetime, which is pretty stupid.

I guess that's natural. Everybody treats the country they were born in as their motherland, even if their parents come from the other side of the world. I think that if you emigrated to a country when you were, for example, 15 years old, in 20 years' time you'd hate the immigration waves as well.

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:11 pm UTC

I notice that when my hair is really short (buzzed) I get stopped frequently. I also notice when my hair is fairly long, I get stopped frequently.

Oh well. I'd rather get stopped then see anyone and everyone walk through.
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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby segmentation fault » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:39 pm UTC

lesliesage wrote:Ha. Ok. So around 0.01% of the world is on the watch list. Well, something like a third of the population IS Chinese/Pakistani/Iranian/Indian. And everyone is telling a law-abiding (and painful to say it) white British tourist to get a lawyer because she's visited.


im not saying get a lawyer, im saying you may be inconvenienced.

and im not sure what nationality has to do with being seen as a threat or not.
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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:48 pm UTC

(BTW, what's the adjective derived from "United States"? "American" seems to fit the context most, but it's quite ambiguous)


American. We just assume that the people from elsewhere on the continent will kindly call themselves "Canadians" "Mexicans", etc, and if you're talking geography, you'll either say "Americas" or "North/South American".
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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby lesliesage » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:54 pm UTC

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Last edited by lesliesage on Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:51 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby ZeroSum » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:12 pm UTC

Just to add to leslie's post:

US: In 2006, 1.27 million immigrants were granted legal residence. (Approximately 0.00423% of the population.)
UK: The number of people granted citizenship during 2006 was 154,095 (Approximately 0.00254% of the population.)
Canada: In 2001, 250,640 people immigrated to Canada. (Approximately 0.008325% of the population.)
France: In 2004, a total of 140,033 people immigrated to France. (Approximately 0.002334% of the population.)

Per capita, the US allows twice as many immigrants as the UK or France and half as many as Canada. Basically, we're neither particularly open nor closed, it would seem.

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby lesliesage » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:16 pm UTC

ZeroSum wrote:Just to add to leslie's post:Per capita, the US allows twice as many immigrants as the UK or France and half as many as Canada. Basically, we're neither particularly open nor closed, it would seem.
Strong work, doctor. The actual numbers are very interesting.

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby Moo » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:32 pm UTC

Keep in mind though the virtualy free migration between EU countries. The UK and France numbers only represent immigrants from outside Europe.
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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby ZeroSum » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:34 pm UTC

That doesn't change the per capita value though if you consider the UK + France to be one entity. There's free immigration between the states in the US, too.

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby Moo » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:36 pm UTC

Countries in the EU (especially the UK who hasn't accepted many of the unifications e.g. the Euro) != states in one nation.

There are vast numbers of EU ciizens who have migrated to the UK, especially from recent additions to the Union such as Poland who come from a totally different culture and barely speak the language; it is a huge cultural void. Allowing that kind of migration goes a long way to negating claims of xonphobia so I feel it is a very valid destinction.
Last edited by Moo on Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:38 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby ZeroSum » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:37 pm UTC

Of course not, but when they act as if they are they amount to much the same thing.

Transit between France and the UK whether for work or vacation is approximately the same as transit between Texas and California.

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby regua » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:40 pm UTC

Moo wrote:Keep in mind though the virtualy free migration between EU countries. The UK and France numbers only represent immigrants from outside Europe.

You sure? The number of Poles that emigrated to the UK is taken into consideration in our official numbers (by the way, that's a LOT).

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby Moo » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:42 pm UTC

(I added a parapgraph between my and your post, Zerosum; I draw your attention to it just so you know the only reason I made the point. I just wanted to highlight a fact you may not have considered in your argument; I have no emotional investment in the argument. I am in fact an immigrant myself).

regua, no I'm not sure but please define "our official numbers". I don't have enough investment in the argument to Google since I must be working. As I said, I just wanted to throw it into the mix. I did not think that EU migration counted as being considered a new citizen since you keep your original passport.
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Hawknc wrote:FFT: I didn't realise Proverbs 9:7-8 was the first recorded instance of "haters gonna hate"

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby ZeroSum » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:44 pm UTC

Well, re-reading the article I linked it seems to make no distinction of which country the immigrant comes from either. The statistic is not X people from outside the EU migrated to the UK, just that X people migrated to the UK.

And migration != naturalization.

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby Moo » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:47 pm UTC

Fair enough; I just wanted it to be considered and you seemingly have considered it. I will verify for myself tomorrow but I really have to go now.
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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby regua » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:53 pm UTC

Moo wrote:regua, no I'm not sure but please define "our official numbers". I don't have enough investment in the argument to Google since I must be working. As I said, I just wanted to throw it into the mix. I did not think that EU migration counted as being considered a new citizen since you keep your original passport.

You've said the the numbers that Zerosum brought up represented only the immigrants from outside of the EU. However, the official immigration/emigration numbers some Polish government agency publishes count the people who emigrated to the UK as emigrants; following your way of thinking, only the people who have emigrated outside of the EU would be taken into consideration. Provided that the Zerosum's numbers are official, if one would compare the Polish emigrants number and the amount of UK immigrants, at least 1.5 million people would be magically missing.

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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby Kizyr » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:15 pm UTC

ZeroSum wrote:
segmentation fault wrote:considering the terrorist watch list is in the millions, i wouldnt be surprised if they are wasting vast amounts resources to do that. dont be so trusting.
The ACLU claims 900,000 names in February. And even then the FBI and the government acknowledge that it's too big and in no small part inaccurate. It's not taken as canon that anyone on the terrorist watch list is a terrorist intent on blowing up the plane they're boarding.

Is it the terrorist watch list, or the no-fly list, that would be more relevant to this conversation? I'm not as familiar with how the terrorist watch list is, but the no-fly list is pretty much a joke. The way it's mushroomed by now (since it includes all known aliases), it's just a messload of Arabic-origin names, so if you have two or more common Arabic names in the name you use to book, you could end up on the no-fly list and have to spend an extra half-hour trying to clear stuff up at check-in.

segmentation fault wrote:then why have it?

'Cause it makes us feel safer?
That seems to be the DHS's general m.o., at least.

lesliesage wrote:It's it a little paradoxical to think the US is especially xenophobic when we do consider anyone born on American soil a US citizen, while loads of countries don't ... There's no decent economist on the planet that could say that immigration doesn't need to be regulated under the current global mobility and economic infrastructure, and the US accepts a huge amount of immigrants from a huge number of countries every year.

To echo this... Even given all problems that immigrants in this country may face, it still seems like a much better climate here than anywhere else for immigrants. I'd much rather be a minority here--by ethnicity or national origin--than anywhere else. The only other place I can think of that's comparable is Canada. KF
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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby segmentation fault » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:54 pm UTC

Kizyr wrote:'Cause it makes us feel safer?
That seems to be the DHS's general m.o., at least.


"feel" being the key word here.
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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby Kizyr » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:37 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:
Kizyr wrote:'Cause it makes us feel safer?
That seems to be the DHS's general m.o., at least.

"feel" being the key word here.

It occurs to me I used the wrong pronoun, too.

"Cause it makes them feel safer?"

Since it's certainly not doing anything for me. KF
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Re: Quick question about flying into the USA

Postby lesliesage » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:31 pm UTC

Kizyr wrote:
lesliesage wrote:It's it a little paradoxical to think the US is especially xenophobic when we do consider anyone born on American soil a US citizen, while loads of countries don't ... There's no decent economist on the planet that could say that immigration doesn't need to be regulated under the current global mobility and economic infrastructure, and the US accepts a huge amount of immigrants from a huge number of countries every year.
To echo this... Even given all problems that immigrants in this country may face, it still seems like a much better climate here than anywhere else for immigrants. I'd much rather be a minority here--by ethnicity or national origin--than anywhere else. The only other place I can think of that's comparable is Canada. KF
Anecdotally, I hear the same here. For example, I'm in a university of 22,000 students, and I only know one black student, and no black lecturers or profs. My colleagues wouldn't even visit me in the evening when I used to live near the black suburb because they were afraid of walking down the street there, even though crime rates are way higher in the richest/whitest part of the town. I looked them up to convince people that they wouldn't be murdered if in site of more than one black person at a time. Wouldn't you rather mug someone who is more likely to be carrying cash? I work with an Iranian woman who dreams of going to the US- she has a nephew in California who says, "I can't believe it- they treat me like anyone else, they welcome me, they don't care about The Regime." Yeah, it's probably because Americans don't actually know the difference between an Iranian, an Indian, and a Pakistani, so how could we care? That's kind of like tolerance, right? Americans stereotype Indians as doctors and stuff; Brits stereotype them as taxi drivers, corner shop owners, extremist Muslims. Heck, east Asian Americans are culturally more American than apple pie, and in Britain, people still call anyone Chinese who is east Asian, and expect them to not speak English. It all really shocked me, because I spent my whole life thinking anywhere in the world would be more tolerant / open minded than Texas. Especially the UK. But I'd even rather be gay in Texas than here, not because they're particularly homophobic, but because they're WAY more stuck in gender roles and gaps and stereotypes. There's only one way to be feminine here, and it's all about dainty/pretty/quiet/etc. It think it might be easier to be Hispanic in the UK, though you'd be isolated. People just think it sounds really exotic, and the only Hispanic kids they've ever met are obviously loaded to be studying over here, so there are completely different stereotypes from the relationship Americans have with Mexican immigration. I think your comment is interesting, though, KF. Is that personal experience? Where have you lived/traveled?


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