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SurgicalSteel
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby SurgicalSteel » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:18 am UTC

Adacore wrote:It infuriates me that a 54-46 majority vote in the senate is now referred to in the news media as 'being rejected'. Unless I'm totally misremembering, a simple majority vote is all that's needed to pass legislation in the senate. The 60-vote super-majority thing is only needed because filibusters have become the norm for some completely fucking idiotic reason and the minority party is now allowed to use them to block absolutely everything they don't completely agree with. Everyone seems to have forgotten that now. :evil:
On that note:
(spoilered because politics)
Spoiler:
Holy shit NRA and GOA! What's the matter with you guys? This one was good for us! But you had to flip out for no reason over the expanded background checks, claiming that the bill would initiate national registration, when there's no language anywhere in the bill to indicate that. Fuck me, there's language in the bill explicitly forbidding the AG from consolidating records! I mean, come on. Show my CCW to skip a background check? Stabilize interstate travel laws? Making background checks free, reducing the cost of FFL transfers? Allow dealers to sell to non-state-residents? Yes, please, to all of those. This one was good for us!
Last edited by SurgicalSteel on Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:46 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby 2652 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:23 am UTC

I'm so tired of the whole ”Nobody will love you until you love yourself” bullshit. I do not love myself, I can't remember ever having and you know what? Other people love me just fine. I have a mother and a father who both love me unconditionally, a brother who misses me when I'm away, an SO who wants to kiss and cuddle me every morning, a best friend who trusts me with all his secrets. These people aren't pretending to love me, they aren't secretly bothered by me and they wouldn't be happier if I were gone, yet I can't seem to get this properly in to my own thick head because every time I try a little voice goes “But no, you're not happy and you do not love yourself, that means you have to be a burden, someone they have to pretend to like just to appease when really they just want to be left alone.” Well fuck you too, voice of internalized ableism! All of my good qualities don't just go away because I've had to deal with mental health issues, I'm still thoughtful and intelligent and funny and kind, no matter how difficult it is for me to type, or even think that.

Seriously, can we just as a culture ditch this fucking attitude? Believe me, I get the whole message of personal responsibility and proactiveness and not dragging people down into our irrational misery and it's fine, but lets stop saying that neurodivergent people aren't worthy of love, that we will abuse/be assholes to any romantic partners or close friends due to our hysteric emotions and lets stop pretending that anyone can just love themselves if they try hard enough. While we're at it it would also be lovely if we would admit that crazy people can be legitimately angry or upset at stuff and might actually know the difference between that and irrationality ourselves sometimes.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby UniqueScreenname » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:26 am UTC

Hear, hear!
Last edited by UniqueScreenname on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:45 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby poxic » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:44 am UTC

+1. There is truth in "love yourself", but as advice it sucks pretty hard.

Spoilered for philosophical junk.
Spoiler:
When you love someone, you treat them well, or at least as well as you can. You don't always have warm fuzzy feelings for them -- in fact, you're sometimes right pissed off at them, or disappointed, or have had enough of them once in a while -- but you stick by them and make up with them after a fight.

Swap in "yourself" for "someone" and that's the main point of "love yourself". Treat yourself as well as you can, and keep getting up after falling down. And tell people who say "being lovable means loving yourself!" to stuff it up their warm fuzzy backside. (Lovingly, of course.)
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Noc » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:58 am UTC

Man, may I rant for a second in response?

I had started typing up a more measured response, but upon further reflection I realized that you'd actually made me angry that that I would like to tell you (nicely) to fuck off. Because I'm in a ranting mood and have Macklemore's "Cant Hold Us" on a loop in the background. It's pretty good ranting music.

The thing about my depression is that it's fucking debilitating when it crops up and I can't fight it -- which is most of the time, because I'm not very good at fighting it. But fighting it is a thing I have to do to be a functional fucking human being, and the last thing I fucking want is for people to stop insisting that I should love myself because they're trying to be respectful. I do need to love myself. I need taking care of myself to be a priority, to be something that's worth it. I need to keep putting in that effort to take care of myself to justify the effort other people put in to take care of me. Because if other people don't take care of me I will stop taking care of myself and I will die.

So: yes. Please. Can we as a culture please keep reminding me that loving myself is a necessity to maintaining my connections with the outside world? Because that's useful. Thank you.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:33 am UTC

Noc wrote:Because if other people don't take care of me[i] I will stop taking care of myself


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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby The Scyphozoa » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:34 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:Maybe it would be more appropriate nowadays to think of it as "rejected" in the basketball sense?

We go hard
In the mothafuckin vote
(Seriously though, what are you talking about?)
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Zarq » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:32 am UTC

2652 wrote:I'm so tired of the whole ”Nobody will love you until you love yourself” bullshit. I do not love myself, I can't remember ever having and you know what? Other people love me just fine. I have a mother and a father who both love me unconditionally, a brother who misses me when I'm away, an SO who wants to kiss and cuddle me every morning, a best friend who trusts me with all his secrets. These people aren't pretending to love me, they aren't secretly bothered by me and they wouldn't be happier if I were gone, yet I can't seem to get this properly in to my own thick head because every time I try a little voice goes “But no, you're not happy and you do not love yourself, that means you have to be a burden, someone they have to pretend to like just to appease when really they just want to be left alone.” Well fuck you too, voice of internalized ableism! All of my good qualities don't just go away because I've had to deal with mental health issues, I'm still thoughtful and intelligent and funny and kind, no matter how difficult it is for me to type, or even think that.

Seriously, can we just as a culture ditch this fucking attitude? Believe me, I get the whole message of personal responsibility and proactiveness and not dragging people down into our irrational misery and it's fine, but lets stop saying that neurodivergent people aren't worthy of love, that we will abuse/be assholes to any romantic partners or close friends due to our hysteric emotions and lets stop pretending that anyone can just love themselves if they try hard enough. While we're at it it would also be lovely if we would admit that crazy people can be legitimately angry or upset at stuff and might actually know the difference between that and irrationality ourselves sometimes.


Half the time I've seen that advice, it's given to people who do love themselves, but are 'merely' unhappy because they can't find romantic love. Talk about your bullshit advice. I'm guessing they're meaning it in a "stop looking, have fun with other stuff, and eventually you'll find yourself in a situation where opportunities present themselves.". Which is also bullshit. So yeah, bullshit on pretty much all counts.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Carlington » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:57 am UTC

The Scyphozoa wrote:
setzer777 wrote:Maybe it would be more appropriate nowadays to think of it as "rejected" in the basketball sense?

We go hard
In the mothafuckin vote
(Seriously though, what are you talking about?)

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby felltir » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:18 pm UTC

SurgicalSteel wrote: spaz out


Don't use those words, especially not like that, please.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Kithplana » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:14 pm UTC

felltir wrote:
SurgicalSteel wrote: spaz out


Don't use those words, especially not like that, please.

I live in the US and I was astonished when the word "spastic" was filtered in a UK-based game I was playing. I can't recall what the connotations are at the moment due to a critically low blood caffeine level, but in the US it doesn't mean much more than freaking out with a possible side of hyperactivity, and it's not considered a particularly negative or hurtful thing to say.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Xeio » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:23 pm UTC

I still haven't figured out why Gunbound censored "Huzzah". Wordfilters are weird.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:37 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:I still haven't figured out why Gunbound censored "Huzzah". Wordfilters are weird.


Oh! I remember a day when Vindictus Europe censored "k". Meaning you got a threatening message and got censored if you posted anything containing the letter.

Also, the missions were automatically named; as in, if you went to fight the "Red Gnoll King", it would trigger the wordfilter and not let you create the instance.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:44 pm UTC

felltir wrote:
SurgicalSteel wrote: spaz out


Don't use those words, especially not like that, please.

You've corrected peoples usage of that word a few times over the last few years, and I'm curious if it's a cultural thing? My understanding of the word is that is has nothing to do with poking fun at people with some sort of spastic neurological dysfunction, anymore than someone from the UK asking about a fag has to do with deriding gay people.

I could of course be wrong.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby SurgicalSteel » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:45 pm UTC

felltir wrote:
SurgicalSteel wrote: spaz out


Don't use those words, especially not like that, please.
I apologize. I'll be more careful with my language in the future.
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Anchorman screams that he's seen a monster (mayday)
There's blood stains on his shirt (mayday)
They say that he's gone berserk."
--Flobots "Mayday"

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Zarq » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:50 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
felltir wrote:
SurgicalSteel wrote: spaz out


Don't use those words, especially not like that, please.

You've corrected peoples usage of that word a few times over the last few years, and I'm curious if it's a cultural thing? My understanding of the word is that is has nothing to do with poking fun at people with some sort of spastic neurological dysfunction, anymore than someone from the UK asking about a fag has to do with deriding gay people.

I could of course be wrong.



Someone linked to the Wikipedia page, but apparently deleted it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaz
So yes, it's a regional difference.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby felltir » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:56 pm UTC

That link pretty clearly indicates my feelings on the word.

SurgicalSteel wrote:
felltir wrote:
SurgicalSteel wrote: spaz out
Don't use those words, especially not like that, please.
I apologize. I'll be more careful with my language in the future.
Thank you.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:21 pm UTC

Kithplana wrote:
felltir wrote:
SurgicalSteel wrote: spaz out


Don't use those words, especially not like that, please.

I live in the US and I was astonished when the word "spastic" was filtered in a UK-based game I was playing. I can't recall what the connotations are at the moment due to a critically low blood caffeine level, but in the US it doesn't mean much more than freaking out with a possible side of hyperactivity, and it's not considered a particularly negative or hurtful thing to say.


"retard" also is much more derogatory in the UK (but becoming more common).

I think the difference between an American using "spaz" or "retard" in a way which offends Brits and a Brit using "fag" is that in the first two cases, the usage is the same, it's just that in the UK we've retained the connotations of mental health issues and so the same use is offensive; this contrasts with "fag" where the usage is completely different (although, there are obviously cases which could be interpreted either way) and one is offensive in both places (albeit much moreso in the US).
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:36 pm UTC

I'm not sure I would want to ask Americans to stop using that word, since it would be hypocritical due to my wish to continue using the word 'cunt' as an insult that is not specifically for women.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby philsov » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:46 pm UTC

2652 wrote:I'm so tired of the whole ”Nobody will love you until you love yourself”...


+1 pant. I'd say 'welcome to the fora' but I see you're a lurker averaging 1 post every 3 months :p. So thanks for popping your head out.

If we amend it to "nobody new will love you until you love yourself" I find it's pretty spot on. Love (to/from another person) is usually formed from a combination of shared experience and reciprocity/altruism, which are between rare and zero if one never leaves their room or has the thoughtfulness/kindness of a sack of potatoes. Neurodivergent people are most certainly worthy of love (arguably need it MORE than your typical, self-lover) but due to mechanics plus probability it just doesn't always pan out which can result in a very unpleasant feedback loop.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:25 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:I'm not sure I would want to ask Americans to stop using that word, since it would be hypocritical due to my wish to continue using the word 'cunt' as an insult that is not specifically for women.
Hmm.


I had no idea that in the US it was used almost exclusively to refer to women. Guess that's my TIL.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:37 pm UTC

Indeed, it is one of the unforgivable words used mostly describe women. Here is an arrested development joke that is relevant so I'm taking the excuse to post it:
Spoiler:
Image


Other insults mostly aimed at women include: "you're becoming your mother", nag, and Beiber.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:22 pm UTC

Well, in the UK it's still probably one of the most offensive terms (probably beyond "fuck") but at least it's offensive equally.

There are less offensive uses in the UK though and, when used of a friend will usually not be taken as an insult.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:46 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
Kithplana wrote:
felltir wrote:
SurgicalSteel wrote: spaz out


Don't use those words, especially not like that, please.

I live in the US and I was astonished when the word "spastic" was filtered in a UK-based game I was playing. I can't recall what the connotations are at the moment due to a critically low blood caffeine level, but in the US it doesn't mean much more than freaking out with a possible side of hyperactivity, and it's not considered a particularly negative or hurtful thing to say.


"retard" also is much more derogatory in the UK (but becoming more common).

I think the difference between an American using "spaz" or "retard" in a way which offends Brits and a Brit using "fag" is that in the first two cases, the usage is the same, it's just that in the UK we've retained the connotations of mental health issues and so the same use is offensive; this contrasts with "fag" where the usage is completely different (although, there are obviously cases which could be interpreted either way) and one is offensive in both places (albeit much moreso in the US).

Remember kids: God hates fags because fags cause lung cancer.

Can I just stick my neck out here and say I dislike seeing people tell others what words they are and are not allowed to use? I gather this forum is predominantly frequented by American users, and it seems a bit unreasonable to expect them not to use a word because it has negative connotations over in some country thousands of miles away. If the word is used innocently and clearly not intended to offend, then it seems somewhat churlish to take offense at it.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:03 pm UTC

On the other hand, I'm pretty pro-"Pay attention to the actual words you're using and all of their meanings as quite a few innocent phrases and slang aren't innocent at all"
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Adacore » Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:09 am UTC

On 'cunt': It's reasonably common for 'cunt' to be used as a term of endearment for close friends of both sexes in the UK. I'm not sure it would often be appropriate for a man to use it to refer to a woman, but other than that I think it's used fairly often (although by no means universally; I've never used it, and it would still be considered very offensive by many groups).

My two best friends are an American woman and a Scottish woman. The Scot uses 'cunt' a lot as a term of endearment, and the first time she did this to the American (before I met them both) it utterly shocked/offended her, and they both ended up angry and confused. Which I think supports SecondTalon's point.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby felltir » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:45 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:On the other hand, I'm pretty pro-"Pay attention to the actual words you're using and all of their meanings as quite a few innocent phrases and slang aren't innocent at all"


This, pretty much.

Sly Reaper: I'm not saying anyone can't use words. I've asked them not to, and now people know how that word is interpreted by me (and others), they can decide whether or not they want to use it or not. That's not to say I won't ask again if I see it again, or that I won't be offended if I see it. I will, on both counts. But I have no power other than social pressure to curtail others' speech to what I consider un-offensive.

Spoiler:
I'm not offended personally by "cunt". I dated someone who used it as a friendly term of recognition. However I do ask people not to use it, because I know it makes many of my friends uncomfortable. Just because no-one present is offended doesn't make a term okay.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby UniqueScreenname » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:20 am UTC

SlyReaper wrote:Can I just stick my neck out here and say I dislike seeing people tell others what words they are and are not allowed to use? I gather this forum is predominantly frequented by American users, and it seems a bit unreasonable to expect them not to use a word because it has negative connotations over in some country thousands of miles away. If the word is used innocently and clearly not intended to offend, then it seems somewhat churlish to take offense at it.

1) This is how the STD thread became such a mess. Let's avoid that.
2) I know that you are speaking in a general way, as in not allowed to use the word ever, but what everybody does have a right to is expressing what terms are personally offensive to them, and hoping people will be considerate enough to at least not use it in their presence. That's probably the most important part anyway.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Magnanimous » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:52 am UTC

bigglesworth wrote:I'm not sure I would want to ask Americans to stop using that word, since it would be hypocritical due to my wish to continue using the word 'cunt' as an insult that is not specifically for women.
Hmm.

Same, though given the opportunity I would probably get rid of all gendered/problematic swear words. We'd lose cunt and Wheaton's Law would have to be revised, but there are still some good ones. Like douchebag and jerk and asshat.

Is bastard ever a problematic word these days? I feel like Game of Thrones kind of built it up a lot for me...

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:53 am UTC

UniqueScreenname wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:Can I just stick my neck out here and say I dislike seeing people tell others what words they are and are not allowed to use? I gather this forum is predominantly frequented by American users, and it seems a bit unreasonable to expect them not to use a word because it has negative connotations over in some country thousands of miles away. If the word is used innocently and clearly not intended to offend, then it seems somewhat churlish to take offense at it.

1) This is how the STD thread became such a mess. Let's avoid that.
2) I know that you are speaking in a general way, as in not allowed to use the word ever, but what everybody does have a right to is expressing what terms are personally offensive to them, and hoping people will be considerate enough to at least not use it in their presence. That's probably the most important part anyway.

Feltir wasn't expressing offence, he was commanding someone to not use a certain word. By all means, choose your words carefully and don't go out of your way to offend someone (unless they really deserve it). But the idea of cutting words out of one's vocabulary entirely seems counterproductive to the goal of communicating. Because sometimes you have to use distasteful language to get your point across.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Zarq » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:27 am UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
UniqueScreenname wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:Can I just stick my neck out here and say I dislike seeing people tell others what words they are and are not allowed to use? I gather this forum is predominantly frequented by American users, and it seems a bit unreasonable to expect them not to use a word because it has negative connotations over in some country thousands of miles away. If the word is used innocently and clearly not intended to offend, then it seems somewhat churlish to take offense at it.

1) This is how the STD thread became such a mess. Let's avoid that.
2) I know that you are speaking in a general way, as in not allowed to use the word ever, but what everybody does have a right to is expressing what terms are personally offensive to them, and hoping people will be considerate enough to at least not use it in their presence. That's probably the most important part anyway.

Feltir wasn't expressing offence, he was commanding someone to not use a certain word. By all means, choose your words carefully and don't go out of your way to offend someone (unless they really deserve it). But the idea of cutting words out of one's vocabulary entirely seems counterproductive to the goal of communicating. Because sometimes you have to use distasteful language to get your point across.


It didn't really sound like commanding to me. More asking.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby felltir » Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:21 pm UTC

You all can see my posts, yeah? I explained what I meant, just a few posts ago. Here's a link
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby philsov » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:10 pm UTC

Regarding the UK usage of spaz/spastic -- does it exist in a verb form? While being an offensive adjective, to say something in the states like "He's going to cunt out" just... doesn't make sense. (And "puss out" has a different meaning.)
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby setzer777 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:22 pm UTC

If someone asks me not to use a word, and I'm not inclined to oblige them, I usually just ignore their request completely. No point in arguing with them, and unless the community at large agrees* with them it's pretty easy to ignore an isolated complaint.

I don't get why people so often try to defend their word choice. Don't think I've ever seen someone persuaded by an argument to not be offended or hurt by a word.

*In which case it's obvious easier for me to just avoid that word when communicating in that community.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:27 pm UTC

Because when you insult someone's word choice, you insult their family, upbringing, and overall character.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby setzer777 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:44 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Because when you insult someone's word choice, you insult their family, upbringing, and overall character.


I suppose. It just seems like such an unproductive exercise most of the time.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I think that you should definitely listen to criticisms and consider the impact your word choice might have on others. But if you've done all that and decided to keep using the word anyway, it saves everyone time to just say "I've considered that and decided to use the word anyway" or to just not respond to the critical post.
Last edited by setzer777 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:47 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:44 pm UTC

philsov wrote:Regarding the UK usage of spaz/spastic -- does it exist in a verb form? While being an offensive adjective, to say something in the states like "He's going to cunt out" just... doesn't make sense. (And "puss out" has a different meaning.)


Seeing as "spaz"/"spastic" are used to describe behaviour rather than personality (as with "cunt"), "spaz out" is a fairly 'natural' usage whereas "cunt out" isn't so much.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Xeio » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:14 pm UTC

felltir wrote:Just because no-one present is offended doesn't make a term okay.
Isn't the contrary true though too? Just because someone somewhere may be offended by something you say, doesn't mean it's not ok.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:24 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
felltir wrote:Just because no-one present is offended doesn't make a term okay.
Isn't the contrary true though too? Just because someone somewhere may be offended by something you say, doesn't mean it's not ok.


Also, being a dick about a term being used might hurt more feelings than the use of the term itself.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby felltir » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:24 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
felltir wrote:Just because no-one present is offended doesn't make a term okay.
Isn't the contrary true though too? Just because someone somewhere may be offended by something you say, doesn't mean it's not ok.
Yup, that's true as well. I tend to err on the side of caution, other people may choose to err on the side of not having to change their speaking habits.
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