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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Jave D » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:52 pm UTC

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Garm » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:56 pm UTC

When we built math from the ground up we started with a group of axioms that looked something like this:

If A is a number and B is a number than A + B is a number
If A is a number and B is a number than A*B is a number

We had to prove the existence of the additive and multiplicative identities (0 and 1 respectively). I don't remember if A = A was an axiom. I'd have to dig out the papers on that one.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:05 pm UTC

I have been informed (by someone who's actually studied maths, I haven't) that the ground you are building upon is extremely unstable, and that you should start with sets rather than assuming numbers.

Why a set is any more basic than a number I have no idea, but there you go.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby e^iπ+1=0 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:29 pm UTC

The axioms most commonly used to build "regular" math are the Peano axioms. Wiki can of course help you out with the details.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Роберт » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:54 pm UTC

Garm wrote:When we built math from the ground up we started with a group of axioms that looked something like this:

If A is a number and B is a number than A + B is a number
If A is a number and B is a number than A*B is a number

We had to prove the existence of the additive and multiplicative identities (0 and 1 respectively). I don't remember if A = A was an axiom. I'd have to dig out the papers on that one.

I think you get A = A from

If A = B and B = C then A = C
and If A = B then B = A
Therefore if there exists some number Y such that X = Y, we can show X = Y and Y = X, so X = X.

NaN doesn't have any number it will compare equal to, and if you compare NaN == NaN it will evaluate to falls. It doesn't equal itself.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby rrwoods » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:14 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:if there exists some number Y such that X = Y, we can show X = Y and Y = X, so X = X.

That doesn't work, because it assumes Y = Y. Reflection of equality is a Peano axiom, transition of equality is a Peano axiom, and symmetry of equality is a Peano axiom. None of them can be used to prove the other (unless less basic things are axiomatic).
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Garm » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:42 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:I have been informed (by someone who's actually studied maths, I haven't) that the ground you are building upon is extremely unstable, and that you should start with sets rather than assuming numbers.

Why a set is any more basic than a number I have no idea, but there you go.


It's because we can say that there exists a set that has nothing in it. It's easy enough to go from there. VanNeumann created the numbers from the empty set that way. Very clever.

0={}
1={ {} }
2={ { {} }, {} }
and so on.

For the class I took, we were working on proof techniques so the set theoretic approach was outside of the subject matter.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:46 pm UTC

I understand

0 = {}

(and indeed quite like it!)

But what's up with

1 = { {} } ? That's the set which has the empty set in it?
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Cathy » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:49 pm UTC

It really bugs me that whenever someone interview Andrej Pejic, they push him so hard on "whether he sees himself as a man or a woman" or "does he like men or women" and stuff like that. Why does it matter!? He's fucking beautiful, stop acting like he needs to choose blue or pink and stay with it.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby gorcee » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:02 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:I understand

0 = {}

(and indeed quite like it!)

But what's up with

1 = { {} } ? That's the set which has the empty set in it?


New Scientist had a great series of articles on this recently.

Basically, imagine 0 = {} as a paper bag with nothing in it. Then, 1 = { {} } is a paper bag with a [paper bag with nothing in it] in it.

So what's in 0? Nothing. What's in 1? A single paper bag.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:06 pm UTC

Oh right! A singular set!

Nice.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby I Am Raven » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:07 pm UTC

WHAT THE FUCK DAD! I got a decent job for the first time in my life, and all you do is say you're disappointed with the fact that I didn't reply to the job vacancy YOU sent me, because it pays more?! I JUST, GOT, A JOB! If all you're gonna do is whine, then don't bother opening your mouth!

(If he first would've congratulated me on the fact that I'd got the job, it's a different thing. The thing is, he didn't. He just immediately pulls this sonI'mdisapoint face and starts spewing shit. :( )


Also, take your math to the math fora please. Although I don't mind the math itself- sorry. I'm just an angry wrangry right now. It's shit like this* that makes it hard for me to not start smoking again.



*My dad, not the off-topic posts. :P
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby gorcee » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:12 pm UTC

Cathy wrote:It really bugs me that whenever someone interview Andrej Pejic, they push him so hard on "whether he sees himself as a man or a woman" or "does he like men or women" and stuff like that. Why does it matter!? He's fucking beautiful, stop acting like he needs to choose blue or pink and stay with it.


It matters because they're trying to find some commonality between him as a unique and unusual individual, and themselves (or their readership) as a largely usual and not-very-unique crowd. Raw, uninhibited beauty is a wonderful thing, but it's rarely experienced in practice, so we think of it as mostly a theoretical concept. Those questions are simply trying to make connections to a theoretical concept, a process that doesn't at all detract from the original product.

It would be like encountering an alien race with three sexes required for reproduction. I'm sure that sex for that alien race is really beautiful, too. Us trying to understand it wouldn't detract from that beauty. Trying to understand a concept that has, in most people's experiences, been purely theoretical isn't the same thing as projecting the demands of normalcy onto that person. In other words, asking him about whether he likes boys or girls (or, presumably, both) isn't acting like he needs to choose. It's acting as if other people cannot understand unless he chooses (which is a distinct problem, no doubt, but a journalist's imperative is information, not pedagogy). There is, however, no burden on him acquiescing to those demands, and so far he has handled these questions with considerable grace and professionalism.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Dark567 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:16 pm UTC

Obby wrote:
adho wrote:Edit: Hold up, how can you not assume x - x = 0? How do you prove that something is equal to itself? Isn't that the whole definition of subtraction? And zero?

Discrete math is a bitch.

IMO, at least. :(
Discrete math is my favorite math.

e^iπ+1=0 wrote:The axioms most commonly used to build "regular" math are the Peano axioms. Wiki can of course help you out with the details.
I am fairly certain that's not true, Peano axioms are only uses in specific situations in number theory. "Regular math" uses Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory with the axiom of choice.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Yakk » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:32 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Obby wrote:
adho wrote:Edit: Hold up, how can you not assume x - x = 0? How do you prove that something is equal to itself? Isn't that the whole definition of subtraction? And zero?

Discrete math is a bitch.

IMO, at least. :(
Discrete math is my favorite math.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Garm » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:44 pm UTC

Sorry about the math IAR. Sucks re: your dad. I'm sure he has his reasons for being disappointed that you didn't take the job he pointed you to. Not saying they're good ones, but I'm sure he's got some reasons. Relations with your parents are difficult. I'm only just starting to figure it out and I'm in my 30s.

Kind of meaningless rant: I'm sooooooo freaking tired of Tebow-mania. All my non-sports watching friends are hopping on the bandwagon and it's driving me crazy.

Also, too: Why can't we use agile? I'm so tired of this testing monolith. It's making me want to punch someone in the neck.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Dark567 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:48 pm UTC

Garm wrote:Kind of meaningless rant: I'm sooooooo freaking tired of Tebow-mania. All my non-sports watching friends are hopping on the bandwagon and it's driving me crazy..
Fuck, I hate that guy...

Although I am all about the Rodgers-mania, so its a little hypocritical. But its sports so I can be.
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Yakk wrote:The question the thought experiment I posted is aimed at answering: When falling in a black hole, do you see the entire universe's future history train-car into your ass, or not?

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Garm » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:52 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Garm wrote:Kind of meaningless rant: I'm sooooooo freaking tired of Tebow-mania. All my non-sports watching friends are hopping on the bandwagon and it's driving me crazy..
Fuck, I hate that guy...

Although I am all about the Rodgers-mania, so its a little hypocritical. But its sports so I can be.


But Rodgers shows up for more than 2 minutes a game. Which is to say, that it's not a miracle that Rodgers can lead the Packers to a win despite the play of Rodgers.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby emceng » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:02 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Garm wrote:Kind of meaningless rant: I'm sooooooo freaking tired of Tebow-mania. All my non-sports watching friends are hopping on the bandwagon and it's driving me crazy..
Fuck, I hate that guy...

Although I am all about the Rodgers-mania, so its a little hypocritical. But its sports so I can be.


Yeah, it is getting annoying. I also don't know why, since Tebow kind of sucks, and I have been too busy to watch much football. The Packers crap is worse though. Tons of Packers fans around here + crappy local team + lots of hype about them going 19-0 or whatever. Shut the fuck up already. I want them to lose so that the hype will just end.

Then again there's nothing unusual about this when it comes to football, or sports in general. I recall watching a game a few years ago('06 maybe). Bears vs somebody, the year the Bears went to the SB. Pregame was all about fellating Grossman. First half was all about how awesome he was, despite like 3 turnovers and horrible passing. Third quarter they finally started criticizing him a little, due to more turnovers and generally horrible play. It took the fourth quarter for them to notice his passer rating of about 40.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Dark567 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:05 pm UTC

emceng wrote:Yeah, it is getting annoying. I also don't know why, since Tebow kind of sucks, and I have been too busy to watch much football. The Packers crap is worse though. Tons of Packers fans around here + crappy local team + lots of hype about them going 19-0 or whatever. Shut the fuck up already. I want them to lose so that the hype will just end.
Ah, but they would need to lose in order to do that :-P
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Yakk wrote:The question the thought experiment I posted is aimed at answering: When falling in a black hole, do you see the entire universe's future history train-car into your ass, or not?

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Shivahn » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:51 pm UTC

Cathy wrote:It really bugs me that whenever someone interview Andrej Pejic, they push him so hard on "whether he sees himself as a man or a woman" or "does he like men or women" and stuff like that. Why does it matter!? He's fucking beautiful, stop acting like he needs to choose blue or pink and stay with it.

To be honest, I prefer that over a tacit assumption that he has dangly junk and therefore sees himself as/is totally a dude. It has its own problems, for sure, but I'd rather it be that than "So, as a dude who looks like a lady, do you get more sex from ladies?"

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Cathy » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:24 am UTC

Well, the part that bugged me was this particular news caster was all gender binary and "yeah, but you can't just be all meh about gender! Pick one dammit!"
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Shivahn » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:34 am UTC

Oh, well. Yeah, fuck that. Grr.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby e^iπ+1=0 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:15 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
e^iπ+1=0 wrote:The axioms most commonly used to build "regular" math are the Peano axioms. Wiki can of course help you out with the details.
I am fairly certain that's not true, Peano axioms are only uses in specific situations in number theory. "Regular math" uses Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory with the axiom of choice.

You may be right. Certainly I've more often seen the axioms more stated in an algebraic way rather than a set theoretic way (yeah, anecdata), but I suppose ZFC is probably what's actually used more. *shrugs*
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby existential_squirrrel » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:01 am UTC

Dear Orgo Lab professor-

Why you lose three of my lab reports? you are darn lucky I brought my lab book home with me or I would be having to take an incomplete in your class right now... :x
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Plasma Man » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:56 am UTC

Look! Here's my shiny new washing machine that I bought! I haven't even plumbed and plugged it in yet, but you said you wanted to see it so here it - WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING? WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO DISMANTLE IT?

What the fuck? What kind of Bizarro logic would make someone think it's a good idea to try to take my new machine apart?
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Felstaff » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:32 pm UTC

#fwp: Another Secret Santa, another couldn't-be-bothered-to-even-find-out-who-I-am gift! I wish I wasn't such an Invisible Tosspot at work!

2008: Can of body spray & shower gel
2009: 59p ($1) lighter with a picture of a naked lady on it
2010: Selection of shower gels
2011: Smaller collection of shower gels

I have decided that my cow-orkers have a backhanded way of informing me about my personal hygiene. To their credit, I haven't opened any of the shower gels. Indeed, I do not own a shower. Each unopened bottle stands proudly (and dusty) atop my bathroom cabinet, and are soon to be joined by an even smaller collection of Dove For Men personal hygienators.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:18 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:Dove For Men personal hygienators.


That sounds like a really kinky sex toy.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Whelan » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:43 pm UTC

Psh, for secret santa last year I got a novelty toilet roll.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Garm » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:37 pm UTC

Whelan wrote:Psh, for secret santa last year I got a novelty toilet roll.


Secret Santa at the office is always lame. The best you can hope for is some thing of M&Ms that your gift giver picked up at the grocery store for $2 (or Toblerone if you're in Europe :))
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Dark567 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:40 pm UTC

Garm wrote:
Whelan wrote:Psh, for secret santa last year I got a novelty toilet roll.


Secret Santa at the office is always lame. The best you can hope for is some thing of M&Ms that your gift giver picked up at the grocery store for $2 (or Toblerone if you're in Europe :))
Everybody here just buys each other a bottle of wine or liquor. It's easy and nearly everyone appreciates it.
I apologize, 90% of the time I write on the Fora I am intoxicated.


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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Garm » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:28 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Garm wrote:
Whelan wrote:Psh, for secret santa last year I got a novelty toilet roll.


Secret Santa at the office is always lame. The best you can hope for is some thing of M&Ms that your gift giver picked up at the grocery store for $2 (or Toblerone if you're in Europe :))
Everybody here just buys each other a bottle of wine or liquor. It's easy and nearly everyone appreciates it.


The few that I've had the misfortune to participate in specified no alcohol. Talk about taking all the fun out of the process.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Whelan » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:08 pm UTC

Ours were student librarian ones. I got: Socks, chocolate handbags, loo roll, and nothing. The fourth year was the year I organised the entire thing.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:29 pm UTC

The secret santa gift I got this year was this foam rocket thing where you put it on an air-filled platform, then punch down on the platform really hard, and air pressure launches the rocket a foot or two into the air.

The base had already split before I got it home.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Felstaff » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:07 am UTC

Problem is, I always put tonnes of effort into my Secret Santa. In an office of 150+ people, my Santee actually sought me out and thanked me personally. His team even mentioned to me at my office Christmas party this evening about how it was the goddamn perfect gift for him. I've never even traded more than a sentence with this guy, and yet with thirty minutes of effort I managed to find the right thing for him. Most other people got gifts that reflected their personalities (novelty dildos for the sexually repressed, coffee mugs with "I'm A Twat" printed on the bottom for the bosses, Windows 98 For Dummies for the IT guy, etc.) and for the third year running I got shower gel. There is literally no thought given to that. It was even from the closest store to the office, and the product is the first thing you see when walking in. I wouldn't have minded if everyone else got shit presents. Hell I wouldn't have minded a low-end bottle of wine. The fact is, everyone made an effort, 'cept my guy. It's quite a punch in the eye to my confidence when I'm that unknown to my cow-orkers.

So tonight I got drunk and made a pest of myself in front of the whole office. We were on a boat* so there was no escape. I might have ruined a marriage or two.


*motherfucker
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Adacore » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:09 am UTC

The only office secret santa I've been involved in was 3 years ago; I drew someone I knew pretty well and still had no idea what to get him. I'm just terrible at buying gifts. In the end I just got him something stupid and inconsequential (so inconsequential, I can't actually remember what it was). I received a Jeremy Clarkson DVD, which sits unopened, somewhere in my possessions in the UK. I've not participated in an office secret santa since, because I feel like with my lack of present buying acumen I actually detract from the experience.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Kithplana » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:29 am UTC

Last year everyone got to specify a small list of ideal gifts. I think some deviated and some didn't, but everyone was generally satisfied. I was certainly happy to have the list... I'm not terribly comfortable buying gifts for most people.

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Arisu
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:13 pm UTC

Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Arisu » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:43 am UTC

So why exactly am I both very hungry and have no desire to eat?
This is stupid.

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Mousou
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:39 pm UTC

Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Mousou » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:40 am UTC

I have a product meeting with a customer (that's come from Korea all the way to Norway specifically for this) in 2.5 hours, and I am so not ready for it - good thing I have all of 2 months experience in this job, without proper training, and have never touched anything related to this before then! *whimpers in a corner*

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Steax
SecondTalon's Goon Squad
Posts: 3038
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 pm UTC

Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Steax » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:58 am UTC

Dear bank:

This is an internet banking service, not an ATM service. Why are you forcing a 6-digit numeric PIN? I'm betting 90% of your customers will use their birthdate or other important day.
In Minecraft, I use the username Rirez.


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