The radical idea that women are people

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:35 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:Wait, I'm not supposed to scratch my balls in mixed gender company?
Miss Manners says that it's socially acceptable to manipulate your testicles in a mixed gender situation provided that either there is an orgy going on, or everyone else in the room, males included, have at one time or another observed your unclothed testicles in a sexual situation. She later defined observed to basically be a situation where, provided adequate lighting, visibility would be possible.

So, basically, if you've fucked'em - even with the lights off - it's okay.

viscusanima wrote:Surely this applies to things like car insurance, too, where men are, in general, worse drivers, yet there are exceptions where women are bad drivers or men are very good drivers.
Women are more likely to smack into another car, causing $100-800 worth of damage and embarrassment on their part.

Men are more likely to wrap the car around a telephone pole and end up eating from a tube in a vegetative state for the rest of their lives.

That's the difference. Just looking at the straight facts on what they've had to pay out, males between driving age and 25 cause the greatest amount of damage in terms of dollars in a statistical fashion that says the issues causing that are universal, and not specific to a certain area. That's all the insurance companies care about. That's why males between driving age and 25 pay more. At least here in the States. Your Country may produce young male drivers who aren't idiots.

As far as the school rules go, in order to get it changed it needs to be challenged in a court. Beats me what the outcome will be.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby viscusanima » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:42 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote: That's why males between driving age and 25 pay more. At least here in the States. Your Country may produce young male drivers who aren't idiots.


Doubt it - here all the young males (11 and up) drive around on little mopeds (or quadbikes - they're legal here!) with unsilenced exhausts, wearing no helmet. A little piece of me dies every time I see in the newspaper that someone has tragically died after crashing their moped.

As soon as they reach legal driving age, males have sports cars with blacked out windows, unsilenced exhausts and music turned up stupidly loud. Women have BMWs etc and have no idea whatsoever about road sense. Most of them can't actually reverse - my mother had someone get annoyed at her because my mum parked in front of her, and so how was she supposed to get out?!

A unisex trait is smoking and talking on mobiles whilst driving, as well as keeping small children in the back (or front) standing up and messing about.

Also, a lot of drunk driving, but it seems like nobody gets stopped - the police here have bank holidays (like New year's) off, you see ;D

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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Belial » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:05 pm UTC

Some Asshole wrote: It still doesn't seem answer how michaelandjimi can say there is no "other" (again, it just seems like one can't possibly exist without the other, har har), but I really, really suck at dealing with things like this. But I am trying to learn... I just have issues learning concepts I can't see, touch, and completely dismantle and try fail to rebuild. Like philosophy and metaphysics.


You're on a board with an overabundance of math and science geeks. I doubt you're alone in having that problem, and at least you admit that you have trouble with it, rather than just disparaging the fields as useless and dismissing them because you don't understand them.

How fucked up is it that that's a positive change from the norm, rather than a baseline?

Anyway. I believe where MaJ is going with this is that, if women are considered to be similar enough to men to be considered as part of "us" rather than "them", men won't consider them "other" any more than I consider people with red hair to be "other".

But bigger than that, the problem is not that men see themselves as the norm and women as other, it's that society as a whole, our culture and laws and traditions and assumptions and language and so forth, assume a male perspective in that way. Our society treats "man" as default, and "woman" as an exception to be accomodated (or not accomodated). Which is generally not so cool.

See also race, sexuality, gender, and so forth.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Pizzashark » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:59 am UTC

Well, I understand that, but what would be the proposed solution? Something will always have to be "other" for "normal" to exist, right? Since there are more or less only two genders (from what little I understand, trans people usually have one gender they identify with more than the other?), it doesn't seem possible that one of them could possibly not be "other".

If that's about the size of it, it doesn't seem like a realistic goal, though it's certainly a worthy one.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:05 am UTC

There will always be an 'other' gender while gender is a deciding factor in what side we are on. Same as there will continue to be racial others while what race we are impacts whose side you are on.
To really get ride of 'other' as a label we need to get ride of sexism, racism, and able-ism.
As long as we live in a binary there will be others, and some of us will be them.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Pizzashark » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:12 am UTC

I think that was the point I was trying to make. Thanks for making it easier for others to understand what I'm babbling about :)

I don't really know if it's possible that we'll ever reach a point where gender will not make a difference because at the most basic level, men and women are different... very similar, sure, but still different in some ways. Maybe I'm just too ignorant or pessimistic.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby michaelandjimi » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:40 am UTC

Belial wrote:Anyway. I believe where MaJ is going with this is that, if women are considered to be similar enough to men to be considered as part of "us" rather than "them", men won't consider them "other" any more than I consider people with red hair to be "other".

But bigger than that, the problem is not that men see themselves as the norm and women as other, it's that society as a whole, our culture and laws and traditions and assumptions and language and so forth, assume a male perspective in that way. Our society treats "man" as default, and "woman" as an exception to be accomodated (or not accomodated). Which is generally not so cool.

See also race, sexuality, gender, and so forth.
Yes, thanks. That's where I'm going with it.

Some Asshole, say you have a bunch of tennis balls. Some of them are red, some are blue. The colour doesn't change how you play, so it doesn't really matter. When it's time to go play tennis you grab the first one out of the barrel and play with it. If you're playing with a red ball, the blue ball isn't "the other", it's just another ball. It would be nice if we could work with people like that, too, instead of people acting like things that don't actually have an effect really matter.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby ++$_ » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:51 am UTC

Some Asshole wrote:Well, I understand that, but what would be the proposed solution? Something will always have to be "other" for "normal" to exist, right? Since there are more or less only two genders (from what little I understand, trans people usually have one gender they identify with more than the other?), it doesn't seem possible that one of them could possibly not be "other".
From the post above yours:
Belial wrote:...the problem is not that men see themselves as the norm and women as other, it's that society as a whole, our culture and laws and traditions and assumptions and language and so forth, assume a male perspective in that way.
Although you're right that for any individual, the other gender is likely to be "other," this isn't the problem. The problem is what society sees. If you ask our society what the average person is like, the society will come back at you with an image of a white male, more often than not. (Consider Joe the Plumber, the typical "average person." Hey, we even have an expression: "average Joe.") On the other hand, there are many respects in which that average person is undefined or variably defined. For example, is this person a Republican or a Democrat? Your image might be of either or neither, and I wouldn't care to guess. (However, notice that my default assumption was that this person had a party affiliation.) Sex needs to be one of these undefined characteristics.

The point is that as long as the average person is disproportionately male, the female gender is "other," not merely from the male perspective (as it always will be), but from the societal perspective. And this is what matters.

Well, it's one thing that matters. It would be awfully nice (IMO) if our society were gender-blind (except where it matters, like sexual situations), but that isn't the most important thing. The most important thing is that our society should be gender-neutral.

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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Pizzashark » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:16 am UTC

That's a tall order, but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. Gender-blind, though, I think is expecting a little too much.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Lucrece » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:06 am UTC

Some Asshole wrote:That's a tall order, but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. Gender-blind, though, I think is expecting a little too much.


Most social causes start as seemingly tall orders until some noticeable achievements are made. I'm sure that asking a slave about a system with no slavery would be perceived equally as a "tall order".
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Pizzashark » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:58 am UTC

Since it's mostly related to the topic (I think?), what's the prevailing opinion on the marriage tradition where the wife takes the man's surname? What about those mixed-surname deals (like Name1-Name2)? Is it okay that the woman takes the man's name, or is that an example of unequal, or "other-izing" treatment?
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Elvish Pillager » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:55 pm UTC

I personally think it's a ridiculously stupid idea, especially with divorce as common as it is today. How am I supposed to keep track of my friends if their names keep changing? :|

That's me believing that names should serve as an identifier and nothing more. Other people believe differently (hence the origin of this tradition.) If I were to take that into consideration, I'd still think it's a bad idea, because whatever reason it makes sense for one partner to change their name would apply equally to the other. If people want to change their surname to identify their new family, I'd suggest having them choose a new name that they'd both change to. Compounds don't work in the long run under this scheme, since the offspring would have to be compound-named too, and it would increase exponentially :)

On a similar note, I never say "Mrs." or "Miss" - if someone wants that sort of title, I say "Ms.", partially because of the equality issue, but almost as much because it's easier to pronounce. I'm a very practical sort of person when it comes to language.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Pizzashark » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:03 pm UTC

Is there really a difference between the pronunciation of "Miss" and "Ms."? Aren't they both pronounced "miss"? I usually use Miss for young, unmarried women, and Ms. for adult, unmarried women.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby pollywog » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:07 pm UTC

Ms. is pronounced with a z sound. Mizz vs. Miss.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Pizzashark » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:11 pm UTC

Well... I'm Texan, so my pronunciation of a lot of things like that is probably more or less the same. I usually say "miz" for Miss, Ms., and Mrs. :P
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby pollywog » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:26 pm UTC

Oh. A Texan. Say no more.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby T-Form » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:38 pm UTC

Some Asshole wrote:Since it's mostly related to the topic (I think?), what's the prevailing opinion on the marriage tradition where the wife takes the man's surname? What about those mixed-surname deals (like Name1-Name2)? Is it okay that the woman takes the man's name, or is that an example of unequal, or "other-izing" treatment?

I think that the tradition is dangerous, not least due to the fact that it can seem relatively benign until you take a good look at it. It does encode the idea that the man is more important, but in the guise of a tradition which doesn't always claim any substantial meaning. I don't think that's how it should be; neither the partners, nor their families, nor society, nor the state should have any prior expectations. It's okay if the woman wants to take the man's name for reasons that aren't derived from tradition or society (if you believe those influences can really be avoided), but it shouldn't be the default. There are plenty of valid alternatives - neither partner changes their name, the man takes the woman's name, they both take one of those hyphen-names (which doesn't inherently cause the dreaded exponential name-explosion), they can merge their names in a more bizarre fashion, they can find a name from further back in either family tree, they can make up a new name entirely. Of course, the first two mean that the woman is keeping what is probably her father's name, which was his father's name, and so on back to the start of the tradition, so it's questionable whether the name that she's keeping was really hers in the first place.

There's another surname-related issue that arises if no one changes their name; what surname do you give to a child? It's tempting to pick the surname of the parent of the same sex, or to do something along the lines of the Icelandic -son or -dottir suffixes, but names are already more gendered than they should be. It's also rather telling that we tend to assume that a child's surname should be linked to a parent's name. It's obvious that this defines the parents and the family as a major part of the child's identity - people still talk about this in terms of "continuing the family name", even - but we don't apply the same ideas to the marriage-naming tradition. If we did, we could only conclude that a married woman's identity is subsumed by that of her husband.

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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:21 pm UTC

Originally women changed their names to show they were changing hands, from father to husband. That was also signified by having your father walk to you down the isle to your waiting groom. It is outdated and I don't like it. I also hate trying to figure out who this person is on my friends page in some social website. It always takes a minute for me to be like 'oh, they got married and decided to make their identity dependent on who they were fucking. right...'

My mother never changed her name, neither did my father. The way they did it was female child (me) got dad's last as a middle and mom's last as my last. My brother has my mom's surname as a middle and my father's surname as his.
I will not change my name, but would possibly be willing to hyphen it if they did too.

I never understood women who did not change their name but gave the father's name to all the children, but I suppose it is their choice.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby H.E.L.e.N. » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:19 pm UTC

Edit: I just realized these comments are pretty US-centric. As that's where I've always lived.

I hate the premise, a lot, but I think name changes are such a pervasive norm that people aren't motivated to do something not-normative.

I realize the only person I've known who didn't change their name was a young-ish mom who did some work in local politics, and people (including me) would keep forgetting she was married or would assume that her husband was a boyfriend.

I have a hard time seeing myself marrying anybody but it has flitted across my mind before that if I was with someone with an awesome name, sure I'd change, because my (dad's) last name is pretty boring. Though I could probably get that changed without having to marry anybody, though I'm not committed to it. Because how would I explain the change (to employers, mostly) without it being attached to a marriage? These rules are dumb.

I am kind of proud that female first names in my family got passed down through a maternal line, though. It's pretty neat.
Last edited by H.E.L.e.N. on Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:45 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Alder » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:30 pm UTC

helen wrote:I have a hard time seeing myself marrying anybody but it has flitted across my mind before that if I was with someone with an awesome name, sure I'd change, because my (dad's) last name is pretty boring.

I'd have that problem if I'd ended up with my mum's surname. If I google myself at the moment, around 7,000 references come up, most to them to genealogy sites with references to people of the same name who are long dead. If I use my mum's surname instead, it jumps to over 500,000 references. I definitely prefer being rare...
However, since I think my current name is great, I certainly wouldn't fancy changing it if I married!
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby PictureSarah » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:14 pm UTC

If I ever get married (which I most likely will), I'm keeping my last name. I like my last name. If we have kids, which the jury is still sort of out on, I imagine we'll have two, and alternate surnames depending on which surname goes better with the first name.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby the Cow » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:20 pm UTC

I kept my last name. As did my wife. We named the children arbitrarily. Her family got the first one. So, mine got the second.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Jessica » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:26 pm UTC

<participation>
I already changed my name once. I don't think I'll go through that again. Then again, I'd probably marry a woman, so what would the tradition... oh right no traditions.

Changing government documents is a pain in the fucking ass. I do not wish that upon anyone.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Elennaro » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:42 pm UTC

T-Form wrote:
Some Asshole wrote:Since it's mostly related to the topic (I think?), what's the prevailing opinion on the marriage tradition where the wife takes the man's surname? What about those mixed-surname deals (like Name1-Name2)? Is it okay that the woman takes the man's name, or is that an example of unequal, or "other-izing" treatment?

I think that the tradition is dangerous, not least due to the fact that it can seem relatively benign until you take a good look at it. It does encode the idea that the man is more important, but in the guise of a tradition which doesn't always claim any substantial meaning. I don't think that's how it should be; neither the partners, nor their families, nor society, nor the state should have any prior expectations. It's okay if the woman wants to take the man's name for reasons that aren't derived from tradition or society (if you believe those influences can really be avoided), but it shouldn't be the default. There are plenty of valid alternatives - neither partner changes their name, the man takes the woman's name, they both take one of those hyphen-names (which doesn't inherently cause the dreaded exponential name-explosion), they can merge their names in a more bizarre fashion, they can find a name from further back in either family tree, they can make up a new name entirely. Of course, the first two mean that the woman is keeping what is probably her father's name, which was his father's name, and so on back to the start of the tradition, so it's questionable whether the name that she's keeping was really hers in the first place.

There's another surname-related issue that arises if no one changes their name; what surname do you give to a child? It's tempting to pick the surname of the parent of the same sex, or to do something along the lines of the Icelandic -son or -dottir suffixes, but names are already more gendered than they should be. It's also rather telling that we tend to assume that a child's surname should be linked to a parent's name. It's obvious that this defines the parents and the family as a major part of the child's identity - people still talk about this in terms of "continuing the family name", even - but we don't apply the same ideas to the marriage-naming tradition. If we did, we could only conclude that a married woman's identity is subsumed by that of her husband.

If I'm allowed to refer to an obscure country somewhere in Europe (Belgium), this is the situation here:
It's the norm here for women to keep their surnames after they marry. Some women prefer to be referred to by the name of their partner (nobody understands why, save in cases where that partner is rich/famous/influential) but it sure as hell isn't an automatic process, in fact, to legally change their surname into that of their partner, they need to go through a normal surname-changing procedure, which isn't that cheap (unless you can demonstrate that you have an offensive surname). Families are sometimes referred to by the surname of the male (if there is one) but usually only in spoken (i.e. "short" language), most families refer to themselves as Malesur-Femalesur on their letterboxes and doorbells, although I do realise that this still puts the male up front in most cases.

Second point, children. While it's possible to name children after the mother, it's not done very often (save in cases where there is no father). But I'd say there's actually a pretty good reason for this: a mother knows for sure that she is, in fact, the mother of the child, as it usually came through her vagina. A man can never know for certain (well, at least he could not in the past, and paternity tests aren't exactly standard yet anyway), so naming the child after the father is a way for the father to say that he accepts the child as his (apparently, children are named after the mother in Austria, presumably because they want the surname to be an accurate representation of familial relations). An alternative would indeed be to name daughters after the mother and sons after the father, having children with different surnames would just make things needlessly complicated...

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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:01 pm UTC

Because the Icelandic people have such a headache keeping it straight, what with their sons and daughters having different last names and no family names existing.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Rinsaikeru » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:04 pm UTC

I have my mother's surname, my sister has my father's. Some people are confused by it--I'm pretty used to it. I like my last name and I'll keep it. He can have mine if he likes, if his last name is super-awesome I might hyphenate to get some attributed cool factor. :D Kids, if I have any will not get a hyphenate though--probably one name or the other decided by how it sounds (agree with Sarah on that one).
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:09 pm UTC

Why do I suddenly feel like a bad person for wanting my kids to have my surname? Providing my hypothetical partner with a machine for making more of themselves would also either want them to have mine or want to take my surname.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Jessica » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:10 pm UTC

Oh. I'll never hyphenate my name. My mom felt the same and that's why she took my dad's name.

I would not wish 3 last names on my children...

Actually I always wondered what hyphenated last named children did if their parents wanted to keep their names.

Hi, my name is Sally Smith-Rogers-Thompson-Wagner. Nice to meet you. :)

(yes, I know we have examples in here of how not to do that, but this was more something I used to think about when I was like 10, and I realized that there are hyphenated names, and names like mine with 2 last names..)
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby existential_elevator » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

I am a Ms.

And as for kid's sirnames.. You know, I think I'd go with the "girl gets mine, boy gets his" idea, so long as, of course, I raise children with [a] anyone or [b] more specifically, a male.

I'm with Sophy on the idea of exchanging the woman from father to groom idea being creepy. I really dislike being anywhere near weddings for this reason.

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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Chai Kovsky » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:02 am UTC

I've always had what I thought was an egalitarian approach to naming: I would use whichever name was easier to spell. Mine is RIDICULOUSLY easy to spell, so I would have to marry a Smith to change my name. As for the Miss/Mrs. thing, I thought it was a cruel and stupid double standard that men use "Mr." regardless of their marital status while women switch titles. I will happily remain Ms. Kovsky both before and after marriage.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby michaelandjimi » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:43 am UTC

If I decide to get married, I think us both changing to a cool, unrelated last name would be cool. Means there's none of this hyphen-y wish-wash and everything's pretty dandy.

I haven't actually thought it through but it seems nice and egalitarian, and it means I can change my name to something nifty, like Zimmerman or Sierra.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby roc314 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:52 am UTC

michaelandjimi wrote:If I decide to get married, I think us both changing to a cool, unrelated last name would be cool. Means there's none of this hyphen-y wish-wash and everything's pretty dandy.

I haven't actually thought it through but it seems nice and egalitarian, and it means I can change my name to something nifty, like Zimmerman or Sierra.
That's actually what my girlfriend and I were thinking about doing if we got married. You should get out of my mind.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby nightlina » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:07 am UTC

Elennaro wrote:...a mother knows for sure that she is, in fact, the mother of the child, as it usually came through her vagina. A man can never know for certain (well, at least he could not in the past, and paternity tests aren't exactly standard yet anyway), so naming the child after the father is a way for the father to say that he accepts the child as his...

bigglesworth wrote:Why do I suddenly feel like a bad person for wanting my kids to have my surname? Providing my hypothetical partner with a machine for making more of themselves would also either want them to have mine or want to take my surname.

Bigglesworth - I don't think you're a bad person. And I agree with Elennaro on his point that using the father's surname for children is a nice way of showing that he recognises them as his own, along with letting him have some part in the child creation process.

When I'm married I'm quite confident that I'll take my husband's name. I think it's a sign of respect and the traditional way of linking two people together. I don't think it would make me less of a woman, or less independent and would honestly be insulted if someone decided to judge me so badly because of it.

My sister has just been married. She took her husband's name. I think it's beautiful. You probably all think I'm brainwashed or something equally dire.

I don't mind the idea of creating a new name when you start a new family and think it could get quite interesting, however I'm really fascinated by my past and my family tree and the meaning and history behind my surname... Something that I think would be harder to keep track of if we were all inventing new last names willy nilly.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:16 am UTC

My mother gave me a French first name but my father gave me an Irish last name, and I'd be reluctant to change one without changing the other, but if I were to marry my current boyfriend I'd take his name- IF he agreed to change it back to the pre-immigration-to-the-US-name his family used to have: Polichronus, which is badass. Maybe there's a Y in there or something. I'm not actually sure. And even if i did marry him, that probably wouldn't happen because he wouldn't give a goddamn about what my name was, and therefore would be unwilling to do any paperwork.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Pizzashark » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:18 am UTC

Jessica wrote:<participation>
I already changed my name once. I don't think I'll go through that again. Then again, I'd probably marry a woman, so what would the tradition... oh right no traditions.

Changing government documents is a pain in the fucking ass. I do not wish that upon anyone.


Hell, just changing your damn phone number is massive, draining ordeal. Changing your name... ooog.

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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Rinsaikeru » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:29 am UTC

nightlina: a sign of respect for what exactly?

I wouldn't judge anyone for taking their husband's name--but it's not something I'd ever be likely to do myself considering the historical and contemporary reasoning behind taking your husband's last name.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby nightlina » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:42 am UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:nightlina: a sign of respect for what exactly?

For them as a person, for the history behind the tradition, for the family that is accepting you. I feel like you're trying to catch me out and am tempted to become defensive but, honestly, I'll admit that I'm probably being affected by society but really, I can't see the harm in this. In fact, I can really only see positives (in my case). However I'm not against other people doing different things - obviously we're all going to be guided by our own understanding of the world and what we want to make of it.

As to the having people judge me comment - mostly that came from:
sophyturtle wrote:I also hate trying to figure out who this person is on my friends page in some social website. It always takes a minute for me to be like 'oh, they got married and decided to make their identity dependent on who they were fucking. right...'

That quote just really gets under my skin - I see marriage and the exchanging of names as such a beautiful thing and positively hate the swear word 'fuck' - it's on par with 'cunt' and all the rest.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby mochafairy » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:49 am UTC

If my so and I end up getting married (I'm not trying to scare you off!) I think I'd take his last name. It's super badass and it's so sexy when he says it...I just melt...
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby roc314 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:56 am UTC

nightlina wrote:For them as a person, for the history behind the tradition, for the family that is accepting you.
Why should this only go one way? Why should the woman take the man's name out of respect for him? Why shouldn't the man take the woman's name out of respect for her? Why is it that it is the man's family that is accepting the woman, rather than the woman's family that is accepting the man?

Basically, although I think everyone should have the right to choose whatever name they want, your reasons for this are incredibly one sided and misogynistic.

EDIT: typos
Last edited by roc314 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:09 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Rinsaikeru » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:06 am UTC

nightlina: It wasn't really an attempt to catch you out--though I admit it was an attempt to get you to explain your reasoning there. I still don't see how one side should show respect to the other and not both to one another--but I completely respect your decisions about your own name and person even if I don't share the view.

Of course we're guided by our own understanding of the world--but I like to think I'm able to think about and change my understanding when I find it to be unfair or unreasonable in some regard.
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