The radical idea that women are people

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:14 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:The hardest thing for me is avoiding pejoratives, especially when half of the people I'm talking to tells me that something is really "gay." When I agree I usually go, "yea, thats ga-... annoying." Then people look at me like I'm mentally ret- shit, I mean, silly. Hell, gay people tell me when something's "gay," and they admit to making that mistake, but keep doing it.
I'm a fan of "lame." It could be a good substitution - long A sound, short, and close enough in meaning to the way you were using "gay."
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
JayDee
Posts: 3620
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:13 am UTC
Location: Most livable city in the world.
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby JayDee » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:22 pm UTC

Quixotess wrote:
Yuri2356 wrote:Assault/Abuse/Harrasment is about impact, not intent. And I (and probably others) have the impression that at any given time you can descide that anything I do is a horrific crime that will get me placed on the special list reserved for the worst of all mankind. I will have no way to defend myself from this. I'm convicted the moment you open your mouth.

Naturally, having this concept hammered into my head makes interacting with you an unnerving concept at best, and it's the sort of thing that takes a bit more than a "Yes" and a safeword to get around.

It seems creepy to you, it's terror for me.

>.<

Your assumption that people take rape victims at their word is divorced from reality. Your assumption that people think rape is horrible and rapists are evil is divorced from reality. Society is not constructed the way you're saying it is. And that's all I can say right now without sliding into yelling and vitriol.

I don't think that is what Yuri2356 was talking about at all. As Monty40xi said, there is a real male fear here. For example, the local laws about rape were changed locally not so long ago, and the way all the papers were talking about it the change was that consent while drunk didn't count. My first thought that all drunken sex being rape was a frightening thing, and the second was about the (terrifying) possibility of a guy having sex with a girl and not having any idea he has raped her - according to the law. As it happens, I did bother to do my research and the law here is not at all stupid enough to make that kind of thing happen. Just adding Alcohol to the list of things can be used as date rape drugs to close a loophole, pretty much. I think it's worth mentioning though, as an example of what Yuri and Monty are talking about.

It's not hard to find examples or stories or case studies about mens lives being destroyed by accusations of rape. and it's something people fear.

It's trivially easy to find far, far more stories and case studies and examples of womens lives being destroyed or damaged by rape.

As real as the first problem may be, the second is so much more common as to make the first trivial by comparison. Trivial isn't quite the word I want, but it fits when we are talking about society rather than individual cases.

On a similar note, I remember when I was first made aware that women might be uncomfortable with my walking behind them at night (or on the same side of the street or whatever.) As a kid, that was fairly upsetting. I know people who were warned about assault and rape at the same age. Their fear and concern would be so much greater than my upsettedness, again to the point of being pretty much not worth mentioning when we are talking about society.
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:I believe that everything can and must be joked about.
Hawknc wrote:I like to think that he hasn't left, he's just finally completed his foe list.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Belial » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:26 pm UTC

JayDee wrote:On a similar note, I remember when I was first made aware that women might be uncomfortable with my walking behind them at night (or on the same side of the street or whatever.) As a kid, that was fairly upsetting. I know people who were warned about assault and rape at the same age. Their fear and concern would be so much greater than my upsettedness, again to the point of being pretty much not worth mentioning when we are talking about society.


Yeah, exactly. At first you're upset, because you're all "Dude, *I* would never attack you, and it hurts my feelings that you're treating me like I might"

And then you realize "Wait. Am I demanding that you put yourself in a situation that makes you uncomfortable and, in many cases, puts you in *real danger*, just so that I can feel a little bit better about your assumptions about me, a guy you barely know? Really? I'm being a dick."
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Noc
Put on her robe and wizard hat ALL NIGHT LONG
Posts: 1339
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:36 pm UTC
Location: Within a 50 mile radius.
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Noc » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:34 pm UTC

T-Form wrote:I'm not sure that the plumbing analogy tells the full story.

Of course it doesn't! The metaphor was looking at one fellow's position and explaining the possible roles he could fill. It didn't take into account the plumber being a opportunistic scavenger looking to rip his clients, it didn't take into account the woman downstairs being a prick, and it didn't take into account the Super being irresponsible.

It also didn't take into account the woman downstairs not minding the problem, because while her bathroom was flooding it gave her an excuse to go live with her friend, who has a nicer apartment and a big-screen TV. It doesn't take into account the upstairs man having read a book on plumbing once and loudly, and incorrectly, claiming that based on what he knew such a problem could not actually exist! It doesn't take into account the Super intentionally holding off on fixing the problem, because with the tenants bickering at each other the attention is not on his failings, and they're less likely to come after him.

So, no. The partial version of the tremendously complex model of human interaction that I presented you with does not cover all of the possible permutations that could arise from such a system. But what it does do is illustrate, pretty clearly, many of the ways outsiders approach issues like these and how they're relevant to the discussion. And why we are saying that some are right, and some are wrong.

And it's worth mentioning that you aren't nitpicking. You aren't saying "This is a flawed model! Here are its flaws!" You're permutating. You're twisting things around and adding things and saying "Well, what if THIS happened instead? You didn't address THIS. And this guy HERE . . . what if he was like THIS instead? You didn't talk about THAT." The fact that you can do so to illustrate so many different facets of the issue at hand means, if I do say so myself, that it's a damn good metaphor. And we can use it, if you want, to talk about governmental responsibility! And about how the oppressed parties aren't universally angry at their oppression! And about the trends of opportunism in movements, with folks latching on to the message and using it to sell books!

But, well, you know full well what I was talking about. And I covered what I was talking about pretty extensively. And either you know what I mean, which means that I was successful and conveyed my position clearly through that use of metaphor, or you don't, which means that I screwed up and should explain more clearly.

Which, exactly, is it?
Have you given up?

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby natraj » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:43 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:
Belial wrote:and, honestly, almost everyone is a member of at least one.

Man, one day you're going to meet a quadropalegic blind trans half black half asian person and eat those words ;)


...My friends totally joke about this with me all the time -- I am a queer female-assigned trans half-black half-indian really poor deaf person. :D

Monty40xi wrote:
Jebobek wrote:The hardest thing for me is avoiding pejoratives, especially when half of the people I'm talking to tells me that something is really "gay." When I agree I usually go, "yea, thats ga-... annoying." Then people look at me like I'm mentally ret- shit, I mean, silly. Hell, gay people tell me when something's "gay," and they admit to making that mistake, but keep doing it.
I'm a fan of "lame." It could be a good substitution - long A sound, short, and close enough in meaning to the way you were using "gay."


... except, you know, that's really ablist. Lame people =/= people who suck. See? Same problem as gay, but a different minority!
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Belial » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:48 pm UTC

natraj wrote:
Jessica wrote:
Belial wrote:and, honestly, almost everyone is a member of at least one.

Man, one day you're going to meet a quadropalegic blind trans half black half asian person and eat those words ;)


...My friends totally joke about this with me all the time -- I am a queer female-assigned trans half-black half-indian really poor deaf person. :D


Wow. If you were also blind, mentally disabled, and legless, you'd have some kind of royal flush of un-privilege.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Jessica
Jessica, you're a ...
Posts: 8337
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:57 pm UTC
Location: Soviet Canuckistan

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Jessica » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:52 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
natraj wrote:
Jessica wrote:
Belial wrote:and, honestly, almost everyone is a member of at least one.
Man, one day you're going to meet a quadropalegic blind trans half black half asian person and eat those words ;)
...My friends totally joke about this with me all the time -- I am a queer female-assigned trans half-black half-indian really poor deaf person. :D
Wow. If you were also blind, mentally disabled, and legless, you'd have some kind of royal flush of un-privilege.
Yup. You could go to conventions and talk about how you're better than everyone else because you're most opressed.
doogly wrote:On a scale of Mr Rogers to Fascism, how mean do you think we're being?
Belial wrote:My goal is to be the best brain infection any of you have ever had.

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby T-Form » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:13 am UTC

Noc wrote:But, well, you know full well what I was talking about. And I covered what I was talking about pretty extensively. And either you know what I mean, which means that I was successful and conveyed my position clearly through that use of metaphor, or you don't, which means that I screwed up and should explain more clearly.

Which, exactly, is it?

I'd say it's the former. I was going for the idea that there's always going to be another perspective - that idea applies to my interpretation as much as anyone else's. As you said, one reason the plumbing metaphor works well is that it does allow other explanations to be expressed.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26519
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:30 am UTC

Metaphors - They stop working under examination. After all, a person dancing couldn't possibly be close to the first sunbeam to break through on a cloudy morning. One's a meatsack flailing around, the others' photons and water vapor.
natraj wrote:...My friends totally joke about this with me all the time -- I am a queer female-assigned trans half-black half-indian really poor deaf person. :D

... I'm starting to think that the Dead Milkman bit was based on a real person..
Spoiler:
Now, I understand that some of you don't know Sarah Jane, so I'll tell you a little bit about her. She's a lesbian Eskimo midget albino. She went to college and she started the Lesbian midget Eskimo Albino Student Union, and four hundred people signed up. There they were, hundreds of 'em, lesbian midget left-handed Eskimo albinos. Did I mention the fact that she's left-handed? She's left-handed, alright.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby natraj » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:33 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:... I'm starting to think that the Dead Milkman bit was based on a real person..
Spoiler:
Now, I understand that some of you don't know Sarah Jane, so I'll tell you a little bit about her. She's a lesbian Eskimo midget albino. She went to college and she started the Lesbian midget Eskimo Albino Student Union, and four hundred people signed up. There they were, hundreds of 'em, lesbian midget left-handed Eskimo albinos. Did I mention the fact that she's left-handed? She's left-handed, alright.


Naw, I'm totally right-handed.
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

User avatar
Guy_At_A_Keyboard
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:08 pm UTC
Location: The Herakleon Museum, if my avatar is to be believed

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Guy_At_A_Keyboard » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:54 am UTC

Monty40xi wrote:
Jebobek wrote:The hardest thing for me is avoiding pejoratives, especially when half of the people I'm talking to tells me that something is really "gay." When I agree I usually go, "yea, thats ga-... annoying." Then people look at me like I'm mentally ret- shit, I mean, silly. Hell, gay people tell me when something's "gay," and they admit to making that mistake, but keep doing it.
I'm a fan of "lame." It could be a good substitution - long A sound, short, and close enough in meaning to the way you were using "gay."

I prefer "That is so very cock." No real significance intended, it's just satisfying to say. Then again, I'm a big fan of creative swears.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:18 am UTC

Belial wrote:
JayDee wrote:On a similar note, I remember when I was first made aware that women might be uncomfortable with my walking behind them at night (or on the same side of the street or whatever.) As a kid, that was fairly upsetting. I know people who were warned about assault and rape at the same age. Their fear and concern would be so much greater than my upsettedness, again to the point of being pretty much not worth mentioning when we are talking about society.


Yeah, exactly. At first you're upset, because you're all "Dude, *I* would never attack you, and it hurts my feelings that you're treating me like I might"

And then you realize "Wait. Am I demanding that you put yourself in a situation that makes you uncomfortable and, in many cases, puts you in *real danger*, just so that I can feel a little bit better about your assumptions about me, a guy you barely know? Really? I'm being a dick."

Can I just use this to go on my own tangent? Gracias.

On that Shakesville thread about street harassment and sexual assault and how it affects our daily movements (I've linked to it before) one guy said something along the lines that you two are going on. He mentioned how, the other day, he was outside and happened to be walking behind a woman who was clearly frightened of him. She didn't have anything to fear from him, he said, but she couldn't know that. So he turned down the next corner he came to and went down a different street.

There followed several women (including myself) saying "thank you thank you thank you there are so many guys who would take that personally (or in fact would start to HARASS us like thanks for proving our damn point) thank you you're such an awesome ally."*

Then another woman came along and said "Yes, that was the right thing to do, but it's not nearly enough. It's not enough unless you also regularly call guys out on their crap behavior." (IOW, no cookies.)

Then my reaction was "why is she being so meeeeaan? Everyone was all happy before!"

Um, so yeah. It's really fucking hard to get the shit out of your head. Members of the privileged groups aren't the only ones who have internalized the system. It's an ongoing process. Don't give up. Examine your thoughts for whether they have any basis that was imposed on you by society.

And it's very difficult to earn any cookies. If you're (general you) doing any of this expecting cookies, you can just start your introspection with that right there, because it's a wrong thought.

natraj wrote:...My friends totally joke about this with me all the time -- I am a queer female-assigned trans half-black half-indian really poor deaf person.

Hm, and don't forget survivor and sex worker. (I tend to think of oppressed groups, just my little litmus test, as things that make you more likely to be raped and/or unrapeable. And, as we covered in that thread mentioned above, you only get to be raped once. After that, you must have done something to bring it on yourself.)

JayDee wrote:and the second was about the (terrifying) possibility of a guy having sex with a girl and not having any idea he has raped her - according to the law.

%$%^%*&*(%&#%*(%^%$

OK, seriously, that's already how it is a lot of the time. Can you seriously not imagine infinite possibilities where that's the case? Woman says not tonight, man persists, woman is afraid man will get violent, woman does not resist, man assumes woman has changed her mind, man commits rape. You can fucking rationalize anything. Man holds woman down, woman cries, man rapes woman, woman orgasms. Man does not realize woman is drugged. man does not realize woman is mentally ill. Man does not realize woman is 14. Man does not realize woman is incapacitated. Man commits rape.

You don't understand how what you're saying sounds to me, so you probably don't realize...It sounds like you're complaining about what a burden it is to not commit rape. This is, of course, shit I hear all the time.

Was that woman saying no, but you didn't hear her? Was that woman not consenting, but too afraid to say anything, so she just lay there? Was that woman physically resisting, but you had her up against a wall and didn't even notice? Was that woman crying, but you thought it was just because it was her first time? Was that woman saying "ow, ow, ow," but you didn't ask if she wanted you to stop because you thought she was enjoying it? Was that woman drunk? Yes? And you had intercourse? Then you raped her! Take some damn responsibility!


*I think men can be feminists, but I tend to use "ally" when I'm describing actions they can take more easily than can women.
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
JayDee
Posts: 3620
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:13 am UTC
Location: Most livable city in the world.
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby JayDee » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:55 am UTC

Quixotess wrote:
JayDee wrote:and the second was about the (terrifying) possibility of a guy having sex with a girl and not having any idea he has raped her - according to the law.

%$%^%*&*(%&#%*(%^%$

OK, seriously, that's already how it is a lot of the time. Can you seriously not imagine infinite possibilities where that's the case? Woman says not tonight, man persists, woman is afraid man will get violent, woman does not resist, man assumes woman has changed her mind, man commits rape. You can fucking rationalize anything. Man holds woman down, woman cries, man rapes woman, woman orgasms. Man does not realize woman is drugged. man does not realize woman is mentally ill. Man does not realize woman is 14. Man does not realize woman is incapacitated. Man commits rape.

You don't understand how what you're saying sounds to me, so you probably don't realize...It sounds like you're complaining about what a burden it is to not commit rape. This is, of course, shit I hear all the time.

Ah, my bad. I had a suspicion I would be saying something stupid no matter how much I revised it.

I can imagine plenty of possibilities where that is the case. I didn't think of any or mention any then because I was just giving an example of a reaction. On reading that news, one of my first thoughts was 'so if two drunk people have sex, that's rape?' and as I said, I did me research and the law qualified drunk far better than the newspapers (using words like incapacitated for a start.)
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:I believe that everything can and must be joked about.
Hawknc wrote:I like to think that he hasn't left, he's just finally completed his foe list.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:00 am UTC

<3 for not getting defensive, thanks.
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3474
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:06 am UTC

I have not read the law, but I am guessing blacking out counts. This is more common than I would like.
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:30 am UTC

So that law only applies to sober guy, drunk girl?
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3474
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:41 am UTC

I know a guy taken advantage of this way. My guess it applies to please when one is incapacitated.
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:48 am UTC

sophyturtle wrote:I know a guy taken advantage of this way. My guess it applies to please when one is incapacitated.

Can I ask what happened afterwards? Did he press charges?
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3474
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:52 am UTC

No. Most people I know who have been raped have not pressed charges.
Also, being under aged, he thought he would get in more trouble (he was 18, she was 17).
But just to stress: MOST PEOPLE I KNOW THAT HAVE BEEN RAPED HAVE NOT REPORTED IT. Male and female. It is a scary thing. I never reported mine, but I am working on it.
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Indon » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:47 am UTC

Monty40xi wrote:So that law only applies to sober guy, drunk girl?


No, drunk guy, sober girl, and technically drunk guy and girl though no clue what that would mean legally, would qualify.

There's one thing about that, and mind, this ties into feminism too:

You know how hard it is for a woman to be raped, to get people to believe and trust her and think that she didn't "really like/want it"?

It's actually worse for men.

Consequentially, it's believed that rape reporting rates for men are even lower than they are for women - and they're low for women. So until our society starts to treat rape seriously, for both genders, laws like that, well... they don't necessarily do very much for men.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

Pandercolour
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:35 pm UTC
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Pandercolour » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:56 am UTC

Indon wrote:
Consequentially, it's believed that rape reporting rates for men are even lower than they are for women - and they're low for women. So until our society starts to treat rape seriously, for both genders, laws like that, well... they don't necessarily do very much for men.

There's a very good reason for that. It has something to do with the frequency it happens. Something like, what, once every hundred million years? What I'm trying to say is, NOBODY CARES.


Rape Denying: officially unacceptable to the mushroom.
Rape happens to every kind of person, male or female, more frequently than I'm sure you'd like to admit. Official statistics are something like 1 in 6 of all women and 1 in 33 of all men, and that's not taking into account UNREPORTED rape, which most remain.
Denying rape does NOTHING positive- it perpetuates the idea that rape is somehow OK when it happens to men, and that it is somehow rare. You disrespect all those who have been raped and you excuse rapists because you state that 'NOBODY CARES'.

Read the fucking thread. Read the fucking fora. A great many of us care. A large number of us have been raped. So if I catch you playing the Rape Denial Card again, your home will be overrun with spores and lichens as my minions cause you to rot from the inside out.
So try to be a bit more respectful.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:00 am UTC

Indon wrote:It's actually worse for men.

I'm not really willing to accept this statement, actually. Here's a link to a post that might be relevant.

There's a very good reason for that. It has something to do with the frequency it happens. Something like, what, once every hundred million years? What I'm trying to say is, NOBODY CARES

OFFS. If nothing else, can you at least accept that men get raped by men? And that people care about that? And then can you go away?
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Belial » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:09 am UTC

Pandercolour wrote:There's a very good reason for that. It has something to do with the frequency it happens. Something like, what, once every hundred million years? What I'm trying to say is, NOBODY CARES.


Sophy and I must be pretty fucking old then, since we both know one.

That's, like....two hundred million years. We were totally chilling it in the jurassic.

In other news, you're still not helping.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:24 am UTC

I know two. There's another two hundred million years between us.

Man, remember when multicellular organisms first evolved? That was pretty fucking awesome, wasn't it?
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Belial » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:24 am UTC

I threw a party.

It got *way* better once there was yeast, so I could ferment things. And things to ferment.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Rinsaikeru
Pawn, soon to be a Queen
Posts: 2166
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:26 am UTC
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Rinsaikeru » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:26 am UTC

Rape, whoever it happens to, is awful. That goes across gender, race, religion and culture. Making it into an argument about what sort of rape is worse is really not going to get anywhere.

If feminism is about achieving equality between all then respecting the experiences and traumas others experience in life is important too--especially if we expect to have our own stories shown common courtesy.

That doesn't mean that you ignore the stats which indicate how horrifically huge the percentage of woman who are raped or sexually abused is, but it does mean that you shouldn't ignore the fact that they aren't the only ones who have been.
Rice Puddin.

User avatar
Yuri2356
Posts: 729
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:00 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Yuri2356 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:31 am UTC

Quixotess wrote:OK, seriously, that's already how it is a lot of the time.

Which makes it worse.

Kowing that it happens all the time, from people who may never know they've done it, is very much the basis of this fear of being condemned for seemingly innocent things.

I'm trapped as Lennie here, or affraid of ending up there. One moment I'm making friends with some nice person, the next there's a corpse in my lap and a bullet in my head. Though in this case there may not be any immediate sign that I've done something wrong (the body). As far as I'd see, I did make friends with that person. We spent some enjoyable time together and left on fairly good terms. But then I get lynched anyway.

And the lack of an angry mob in the real world doesn't change much. The punishment just gets switched with "I carry on with my day, blissfully unaware that I've destroyed a human life. I may even break a few more while I'm at it." That does not bode well for one's sanity.

Also, hope this doesn't feel like I'm attacking anyone. Just trying to establish the impact this has on me and (to bring it back to the starting point) why it may not be nice to shout at me for being nervous about tackling your boobs. In the odd case, there can be a very sad and serious reason.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:46 am UTC

So what I'm getting from this is that you feel terrible about the fact that you might rape someone without knowing it.

Okay. That's better than what I thought you were getting at before, which is that you feel outraged at the fact that you might be blamed for raping someone when really you didn't.

But it's still...sort of...feels like something you can fix? By being really, really sure about consent? By not exerting pressure on any woman to have sex? By paying attention while you're having sex for signs of reluctance? I mean, I have a lot of difficulty convincing people that that it's necessary or desirable, but once you've decided that it is necessary and desirable, I mean, does anyone find it particularly burdensome? *pokes the allies*
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
kinigget
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:56 pm UTC
Location: the wild wild west

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby kinigget » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:55 am UTC

Pandercolour wrote:
Indon wrote:
Consequentially, it's believed that rape reporting rates for men are even lower than they are for women - and they're low for women. So until our society starts to treat rape seriously, for both genders, laws like that, well... they don't necessarily do very much for men.

There's a very good reason for that. It has something to do with the frequency it happens. Something like, what, once every hundred million years? What I'm trying to say is, NOBODY CARES.

okay pandercolour, I've put up with you for this entire thread. but that is just one too many.

I hope you realize that you are perpetuating the stereotype of the man-hating feminist.

seriously? guys don't ever get raped? do you not realize that almost everything in existence works both ways? nobody cares? how about the guys who actually do get raped, and those around them? do they not care?

I realize that many of you're inflammatory statements may be technically true,but that does not excuse your behavior.

you seriously need to rethink your attitude.
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:I can tell from his word choice that he is using his penis to type.

Steax wrote:I think the courts are kinda busy right now. Something about cake and due process.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:59 am UTC

kinigget wrote:I hope you realize that you are perpetuating the stereotype of the man-hating feminist.

*grouse grouse* I could just as easily say that he's helping justify my belief that men are ignorant and hateful. *grouse grouse*
Raise up the torch and light the way.

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:04 am UTC

Quixotess wrote:
kinigget wrote:I hope you realize that you are perpetuating the stereotype of the man-hating feminist.

*grouse grouse* I could just as easily say that he's helping justify my belief that men are ignorant and hateful. *grouse grouse*
Now now. There's no reason for us to argue when the fact is, we can all agree we wish Pandercolour would stop talking. Let's all get along in our mutual disdain.
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:12 am UTC

I'm not really talking about Pandercolour, though. I'm talking about how the belief that someone proves something about a group they identify with only works if you hold certain beliefs already about that group, and choose to identify the someone with that group first above the rest. Like black pickpockets. "Don't you realize you're reinforcing the stereotype of blacks as criminals?"

(If you're about to argue that he was explicitly espousing feminist beliefs, I'll just point out that marginalizing and erasing rape victims, of whatever sex, is blatantly antifeminist.)
Raise up the torch and light the way.

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:17 am UTC

Quixotess wrote:I'm not really talking about Pandercolour, though. I'm talking about how the belief that someone proves something about a group they identify with only works if you hold certain beliefs already about that group, and choose to identify the someone with that group first above the rest. Like black pickpockets. "Don't you realize you're reinforcing the stereotype of blacks as criminals?"

(If you're about to argue that he was explicitly espousing feminist beliefs, I'll just point out that marginalizing and erasing rape victims, of whatever sex, is blatantly antifeminist.)

You don't have to believe a stereotype's at all valid in order to tell someone they're reinforcing it. It can be a well-known but completely false stereotype.
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
kinigget
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:56 pm UTC
Location: the wild wild west

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby kinigget » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:25 am UTC

this is what I love about you quixotess, it may be impossible to say anything on this thread without you jumping on us, but that is an inherently good thing, you're pointing out just how wrong we all truly are. If not for you, this thread would have disintigrated pages ago. thank you, for keeping us all in line.

*bows*
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:I can tell from his word choice that he is using his penis to type.

Steax wrote:I think the courts are kinda busy right now. Something about cake and due process.

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby T-Form » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:27 am UTC

Quixotess wrote:But it's still...sort of...feels like something you can fix? By being really, really sure about consent? By not exerting pressure on any woman to have sex? By paying attention while you're having sex for signs of reluctance? I mean, I have a lot of difficulty convincing people that that it's necessary or desirable, but once you've decided that it is necessary and desirable, I mean, does anyone find it particularly burdensome?

The problem is that it'll never be enough. I mean, all of that stuff is essential, yes, but you can never be absolutely assured of consent. Think about social/cultural/peer pressure, for example - that's always going to be around and no single person can stop it.

I have some idea what it's like to realise that you're hurting someone without meaning to. Nothing on the same magnitude as sexual violence, thankfully, but it's all too easy to fail to realise that you're causing emotional pain. And I've been on the receiving end of that, too, so I know how much I was probably hurting people. All of this was a good ten years ago now, and I still feel pretty terrible about it at times. The regrets and fears associated with accidentally hurting people are not trivial to deal with.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:39 am UTC

Monty40xi wrote:You don't have to believe a stereotype's at all valid in order to tell someone they're reinforcing it. It can be a well-known but completely false stereotype.

OK. Let me try this again.

How about the stereotype that all feminists are fat and hairy-legged?

Do you see what's problematic about even telling me, as a fat feminist, that I am reinforcing that stereotype? Even if you claim not to believe it? Do you see how you're buying into that frame? Do you see how even addressing the frame in any other context than "this is a completely bogus frame wtf is wrong with you?" reinforces that frame? Do you see how you're playing the other person's game? What about telling a thin feminist you're glad she's a feminist, because it will help debunk that stereotype? Do you see how you're still playing the other person's game?

And do you see how kinigget's statement only works because it is a frame that most people buy into? How I can't really say Pandercolour is helping prove that all men are hateful ignorant bigots, because there's not a narrative for that and everyone can immediately see how ridiculous that statement is? Because it is accepted that you can generalize all feminists from one feminist, and it is not accepted that you can generalize all men from one man. Do you see how even saying that is contributing to the pressures that I personally feel to say "I'm a feminist, but not one of those feminists"? And how messed up that is?

kinigget wrote:this is what I love about you quixotess, it may be impossible to say anything on this thread without you jumping on us, but that is an inherently good thing, you're pointing out just how wrong we all truly are. If not for you, this thread would have disintigrated pages ago. thank you, for keeping us all in line.

Um...thank you. I'm sure you all would have gotten on just fine without me, though, you know. You people are pretty neat.

T-Form wrote:
Quixotess wrote:But it's still...sort of...feels like something you can fix? By being really, really sure about consent? By not exerting pressure on any woman to have sex? By paying attention while you're having sex for signs of reluctance? I mean, I have a lot of difficulty convincing people that that it's necessary or desirable, but once you've decided that it is necessary and desirable, I mean, does anyone find it particularly burdensome?

The problem is that it'll never be enough. I mean, all of that stuff is essential, yes, but you can never be absolutely assured of consent. Think about social/cultural/peer pressure, for example - that's always going to be around and no single person can stop it.

*grin* Now you're into Rrrradical Feminism. That no choice a woman makes in a patriarchal society can be a truly consensual choice. That in a patriarchal society, all heterosexual sex is rape. That is...one hell of an interesting debate. Something I haven't examined yet. It seems that this is easily accepted for certain societies - anyone here who's read A Song of Ice and Fire would probably agree with me that no choice any woman made in that society was a free choice, and no sex was freely consented to by any woman. But at what point do we cross the line into "not too patriarchal"? At what point is any woman free?
Raise up the torch and light the way.

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby T-Form » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:24 am UTC

Quixotess wrote:*grin* Now you're into Rrrradical Feminism. That no choice a woman makes in a patriarchal society can be a truly consensual choice. That in a patriarchal society, all heterosexual sex is rape. That is...one hell of an interesting debate. Something I haven't examined yet. It seems that this is easily accepted for certain societies - anyone here who's read A Song of Ice and Fire would probably agree with me that no choice any woman made in that society was a free choice, and no sex was freely consented to by any woman. But at what point do we cross the line into "not too patriarchal"? At what point is any woman free?

It's a tricky question, yeah. I have to say that I'm not too fond of the undertones that the tiniest bit of pressure threatens one's capacity for free will and consent (and of course there's pressure on men to have sex too; no one is absolutely free), but at the same time our society can pressure and deceive people in some pretty insidious ways (edit: cosmetic surgery provides some good examples of this), and I'm not keen on that either. I've more or less reached the conclusion that while recognising and resisting social and cultural pressure is crucial, we ultimately have to accept that individual choices can sometimes have some validity even though they're not made from a position of absolute freedom. I feel that making a genuine effort to avoid harming people - and to understand how they feel, so there's much less chance of harming people accidentally - is the key, and in the end I think it's about the best anyone can do as an individual.

User avatar
bigglesworth
I feel like Biggles should have a title
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:29 pm UTC
Location: Airstrip One

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:57 am UTC

Quixotess wrote: At what point is any woman free?


At what point is any man free? Because by the point that all heterosexual sex is rape, all males are coerced into rape by society.
Generation Y. I don't remember the First Gulf War, but do remember floppy disks.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:08 pm UTC

Uh...only if they choose to have intercourse. That is, they get to make that choice, and then if they do that is rape. The whole point behind that idea being that whenever there is intercourse, the woman involved did not choose that freely.

Um...yeah, what you are saying is quite...wrong. Allow me to put a trigger warning on what I'm about to say here (although this past conversation has been quite triggery, but never mind.)

Picture a woman unconscious on the floor. You happen across her. You can't have sex with her; you can only rape her; but that's only if you choose to have intercourse with her. You could also just walk away. Are you forced into rape?

Edit: Ooh! Ooh! Better analogy!

If you are a pedophile interested solely in little children, any intercourse you might want to have is rape. Are you forced into rape?
Raise up the torch and light the way.

crowey
That's DOCTOR Crowey, to you
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:52 pm UTC
Location: UK

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby crowey » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:14 pm UTC

I don't like the implication that any choice a woman makes is only a product of the patriarchy and nothing to do with her own thoughts, but any choice a man makes is just his choice.
Maybe I misunderstood the analogy... :?


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 16 guests