The radical idea that women are people

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:52 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:Car insurance is different than health insurance. Equating the two is misleading and devalues health. I have no choice but to have a body. I have decided not to have a car. I am not more likely than you to be stupid with my body and say, break bones or need stitches.

Also, increasing routine checkups decreases the big emergency part and decreasing the amount of time actually spent sick. And men are more likely to need, say, their appendix removed. Men have their sicknesses and illnesses were they are a higher risk too.
So even if we go with the women STILL would cost more, we would cost almost 50% more in some cases? Really?

That part is why I said I didn't want to commit to a position yet. The article had a bunch of people saying "yes, you'd cost that much more" and a bunch of people saying "no, you wouldn't cost that much more," but nobody presented the numbers to prove it.
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby T-Form » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:58 pm UTC

Regarding vehicle insurance, not having a car isn't a practical option for everyone. Some people live too far from their workplace to walk, public transport is often unreliable or unviable (especially as it's underfunded and poorly planned in many places), and they might need to move more than a cyclist can easily carry on a regular basis (living far from the nearest supermarket springs to mind as another example).
Monty40xi wrote:The idea that you pay more for something if you're statistically likely to use it more (not just for maternity and pap, but for regular sickness too) doesn't seem flawed to me.

Health should not be left to the market. The user-pays model neglects that healthcare isn't about the treatment itself, it's about being (relatively) healthy afterward, and about reducing the chance of becoming less healthy in the future. People shouldn't have to pay more to get the same benefit just because it's supposedly harder for them to get there.

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3476
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:03 pm UTC

Even if we do, is it sexism to charge us more? I say yes, since it is racism to charge racial minorities more even thought blacks have been link with higher rates of cancer (among other things. it is sort of dangerous to be a black woman *unless* you go for regular check ups because they are sort of highly at risk for many things).
IF women are more likely to go to the doctors to check on things, they would find potential big problems before they are big problems. Once something becomes a big problem (full blown cancer instead of just a precancerous tumor for example) it becomes more expensive. So if women go more often, men are more likely to go for big things (and at later stages). The costs would balance themselves out if not cost more on the end of the male.
This was poorly worded due to my rush at work but you get what I mean.
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby 22/7 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:05 pm UTC

T-Form wrote:Health should not be left to the market.
Just so we're clear, this is not a universally held opinion. That is all.
T-Form wrote:People shouldn't have to pay more to get the same benefit just because it's supposedly harder for them to get there.
I'm not catching what you're trying to say here.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:13 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:Even if we do, is it sexism to charge us more? I say yes, since it is racism to charge racial minorities more even thought blacks have been link with higher rates of cancer (among other things. it is sort of dangerous to be a black woman *unless* you go for regular check ups because they are sort of highly at risk for many things).
IF women are more likely to go to the doctors to check on things, they would find potential big problems before they are big problems. Once something becomes a big problem (full blown cancer instead of just a precancerous tumor for example) it becomes more expensive. So if women go more often, men are more likely to go for big things (and at later stages). The costs would balance themselves out if not cost more on the end of the male.
This was poorly worded due to my rush at work but you get what I mean.

According to what the insurance providers are saying their data shows, no. The costs would not balance themselves out. Covering the people who only talk to the doctor in the late stage of a serious disease would still cost less than covering the people who went early and often, by their undisclosed data. Again, it would be nice if either side actually presented their numbers for the average cost of covering different groups of people.
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby T-Form » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:27 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
T-Form wrote:People shouldn't have to pay more to get the same benefit just because it's supposedly harder for them to get there.
I'm not catching what you're trying to say here.

I'm trying to say that health insurance is about providing the same benefit - a state of "health" - to everyone, and that charging people based on the individual cost of diagnosis and treatment is unjust because some people, through no fault of their own, need more expensive diagnosis and treatment to be healthy. These different charges to receive this same benefit - a benefit that's vital to everyone - are the reason I claim that the market model is unjust in this context.

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby 22/7 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:32 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:
I don't even know if the initial premise "women get more checkups" is true.
Thank you
This is probably a fairly easy stat to collect, though I've never actually seen statistics about it. I know that of the people that I know, it's anecdotally true, but that's not exactly a statistic worth resting a case on.
T-Form wrote:I'm trying to say that health insurance is about providing the same benefit - a state of "health" - to everyone, and that charging people based on the individual cost of diagnosis and treatment is unjust because some people, through no fault of their own, need more expensive diagnosis and treatment to be healthy. These different charges to receive this same benefit - a benefit that's vital to everyone - are the reason I claim that the market model is unjust in this context.
Ah. Well, again, that's not a universally held belief, but I can see where you're coming from. That said, the whole car insurance thing does run along those lines (higher rates for young males than pretty much anyone else, drops at certain ages, upon getting married, etc.), but it looks to me like you're saying that the free market system for health insurance is inappropriate.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:40 pm UTC

If market-driven health insurance is wrong, then it goes without saying that women paying different rates is wrong. If market-driven health insurance is OK, then it may or may not be wrong for women to pay different rates, depending on the extent of the differences and the average cost of services provided.

Without the actual financial data, which it doesn't seem we're going to get, we won't be able to make any firm conclusions in a market-driven scenario and we're just spinning our wheels.
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Jebobek » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:42 pm UTC

If people start saying "its the way I was born" How do you tell the difference between genetics and your own decisions when it comes to health care?

How do you deal with people that refuse to stop smoking and get lung cancer, and they point out that lung cancer was in their family including non-smokers?

People who refuse to stop drinking and run into a plethora of problems, but say pancreatitis(sp) was in the family line?

Obese people with type II diabetes that say they have the "fat gene"?

Off topic rant:
Spoiler:
People refuse to get off their motorcycles this time of year because they claim its better for conservation, but then they wind up with Community-Acquired Pneumonia. Laying in our ICU for 1-3 days drains 1- 2-years worth of the overall "energy" he tried to save on a motorcycle.
Image

User avatar
JayDee
Posts: 3620
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:13 am UTC
Location: Most livable city in the world.
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby JayDee » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:45 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:What about feminists is really that bad? DO we have 'man hating' feminists running round with baseball bats and megaphones yelling and beating up people?
I see these as two completely separate questions. I've met people describing themselves as feminist who are (and others who merely seem) to be made of nothing but hatred and rage. I'm not fool enough to think those people in any way typify feminism, though. There are people like that with all kinds of creeds.
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:I believe that everything can and must be joked about.
Hawknc wrote:I like to think that he hasn't left, he's just finally completed his foe list.

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:46 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:If people start saying "its the way I was born" How do you tell the difference between genetics and your own decisions when it comes to health care?

How do you deal with people that refuse to stop smoking and get lung cancer, and they point out that lung cancer was in their family including non-smokers?

People who refuse to stop drinking and run into a plethora of problems, but say pancreatitis(sp) was in the family line?

Obese people with type II diabetes that say they have the "fat gene"?

Off topic rant:
Spoiler:
People refuse to get off their motorcycles this time of year because they claim its better for conservation, but then they wind up with Community-Acquired Pneumonia. Laying in our ICU for 1-3 days drains 1- 2-years worth of the overall "energy" he tried to save on a motorcycle.

Well... I'd imagine their rates are increased twice: once for family history, and once for habits like smoking and drinking.
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Jebobek » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:58 pm UTC

I'm wondering if the habits will be penalized under non market-driven insurance? Insurance bills hit people where it hurts. Its negative, but its an incentive to watch the habits.
Image

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3476
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:06 pm UTC

Why should it hurt to be female? Why should it hurt to make sure you are staying as healthy as possible?
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Jebobek » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:17 pm UTC

Well it shouldn't. I'd like to see a transition to universal heathcare but non-universal costs to individuals that decided to increase their health risks. I'd like to see it executed without hurting general groups, including females. That sounds easy in one sentence, but is hard in the execution once we start hitting grey areas.
Image

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:18 pm UTC

Because it costs something. TANSTAAFL.

User avatar
Rinsaikeru
Pawn, soon to be a Queen
Posts: 2166
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:26 am UTC
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Rinsaikeru » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:20 pm UTC

I'm all for universal health care--which is what it's like here, though there are of course problems in any system. Those that needlessly put their health at risk do put some burden on the system, but it's not that easy to control these behaviours. Most of us do things that are not healthy for us: not eat enough vegetables, eat too much meat, don't drink enough water. Where do you draw the line?

I think it's incredibly unfair to charge women more for basic standard healthcare.
Last edited by Rinsaikeru on Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:42 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Rice Puddin.

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:27 pm UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:I think it's incredibly unfair to charge women more for basic standard healthcare.
Even if* women use more of it?

*"if" still just means "if," without the true cost figures to look at.
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:32 pm UTC

You'd think they'd get a large order discount...

User avatar
roc314
Is dead, and you have killed him
Posts: 1356
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:48 am UTC
Location: A bunker, here behind my wall
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby roc314 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:34 pm UTC

Monty40xi wrote:
Rinsaikeru wrote:I think it's incredibly unfair to charge women more for basic standard healthcare.
Even if* women use more of it?

*"if" still just means "if," without the true cost figures to look at.
If we are in a system with universal health care, then no, obviously.

If we are not, then no, obviously. It seems discriminatory to make someone pay extra for medical care just because they happen to have two X chromosomes. Especially, as has been mentioned above, when you consider that not all women will use the additional services that are used to justify the higher rate (pregnancy stuff, for example).

And yes, the invisible hand of the market can be racist/sexist/bigoted, and no, that doesn't make it okay.

EDIT: Actually, I think that this has been pretty well covered above. Just scroll up a few posts to see.
Hippo: roc is the good little communist that lurks in us all
Richard Stallman: Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.
suffer-cait: roc's a pretty cool dude

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Jebobek » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:42 pm UTC

Monty40xi wrote:
Rinsaikeru wrote:I think it's incredibly unfair to charge women more for basic standard healthcare.
Even if* women use more of it?

*"if" still just means "if," without the true cost figures to look at.
Well it does not have to be 100% universal, possibly just baseline tax for general standard of care, which is universal to all race and gender. So although we're all paying the same taxes, all women get the Genital Warts vaccine while men don't because they don't need it. But its smart, preventative health care.

Then when a person goes off for more extreme care, we could do what China does. (WIKI)
The system is tiered, depending on the location. If patients go to a small hospital or clinic in their local town, the scheme will cover from 70-80% of their bill. If they go to a county one, the percentage of the cost being covered falls to about 60%. And if they need specialist help in a large modern city hospital, they have to bear most of the cost themselves, the scheme would cover about 30% of the bill
We could base it on "level of care" rather than location. This is where we hit the grey areas. What men-specific care is on the same level of care compared to female-specific care?
Image

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:45 pm UTC

roc314 wrote:
Monty40xi wrote:
Rinsaikeru wrote:I think it's incredibly unfair to charge women more for basic standard healthcare.
Even if* women use more of it?

*"if" still just means "if," without the true cost figures to look at.
If we are in a system with universal health care, then no, obviously.

If we are not, then no, obviously. It seems discriminatory to make someone pay extra for medical care just because they happen to have two X chromosomes. Especially, as has been mentioned above, when you consider that not all women will use the additional services that are used to justify the higher rate (pregnancy stuff, for example).

And yes, the invisible hand of the market can be racist/sexist/bigoted, and no, that doesn't make it okay.

EDIT: Actually, I think that this has been pretty well covered above. Just scroll up a few posts to see.

It's not "just because they happen to have two X chromosomes." It's "just because they are statistically more likely to actually incur greater health care costs."

Why shouldn't the amount you pay correspond to the value of what you're getting?
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:48 pm UTC

Are they getting it, or are they more likely to get it?

User avatar
Rinsaikeru
Pawn, soon to be a Queen
Posts: 2166
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:26 am UTC
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Rinsaikeru » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:53 pm UTC

There are lots of possible considerations here:

Pregnancy/maternity causes more costs--would you suggest that women are charged more for this, I'm not sure where we'd be without children.

Women live longer than men by several years.

Women tend to actually go for checkups.

None of these factors should incur an increased medical cost to women in my opinion. (But then I really am socialist about healthcare).
Rice Puddin.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:01 pm UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:Pregnancy/maternity causes more costs--would you suggest that women are charged more for this, I'm not sure where we'd be without children.
That's more of a reason for Health Insurance Companies to pretty much provide birth control free of charge. I have a hard time believing even a ten-year supply of chemicals in pill form cost more than the costs run up by a pregnancy, from pre-natal care to the actual birth and resulting insurance on the kid until.. I dunno.. age 8 or something?
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:05 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:Are they getting it, or are they more likely to get it?

It's insurance, so, likely. Paying for exactly what you get would mean having no health insurance whatsoever and paying out of pocket for everything. If you've got a big pile of money and you're confident that your actual costs will be significantly less than the insurance costs for your age/sex/occupation/history/whatever, it might work.

Back on the other track - if we can't agree on any factors that should increase your health insurance costs, are there any factors that should DECREASE your health insurance costs?
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Jebobek » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:31 pm UTC

Sorta like a good-driver break from car insurance? I would suppose going to checkups and being a complaint patient.
Image

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby T-Form » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:51 pm UTC

A compliant patient, surely? edit: perhaps not, actually - the "minor ailment" sense didn't occur to me at first.

That's a dangerous idea in itself, though. Doctors do all sorts of nasty things, ostensibly with the patient's interests at heart. In the past, a lot of working-class and (especially) black women were sterilised without informed consent, or sometimes - typically during an abortion - completely without their knowledge. It's quite plausible that this still happens, and I certainly wouldn't trust medical institutions not to abuse the threat of higher charges in an attempt to coerce minorities into submitting to sterilisation. On the other side of the coin, trans people often face one hell of a struggle to get access to treatment - standing up for yourself there is also an inherent challenge to the authority of a doctor, and thus not "compliant". Protecting the rights to refuse medical treatment and to complain if you feel treatment is inadequate are far more important than rewarding people for submitting to some external, subjective idea of best practice.

Monty40xi wrote:It's not "just because they happen to have two X chromosomes." It's "just because they are statistically more likely to actually incur greater health care costs."

Why shouldn't the amount you pay correspond to the value of what you're getting?

You're confusing cost and value. The value of health isn't really on the same scale as the value of money - health is vital for everyone, and it's not transferrable. It's a lot like like clean and safe water and air - it's an essential component of freedom (or self-ownership, if you like); it has unmeasurable value, but it's also taken for granted until you don't have it any more.
Last edited by T-Form on Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:55 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:53 pm UTC

T-Form wrote:
Monty40xi wrote:It's not "just because they happen to have two X chromosomes." It's "just because they are statistically more likely to actually incur greater health care costs."

Why shouldn't the amount you pay correspond to the value of what you're getting?

You're confusing cost and value. The value of health isn't really on the same scale as the value of money - health is vital for everyone, and it's not transferrable. It's a lot like like clean and safe water and air - it's an essential component of freedom (or self-ownership, if you like); it has unmeasurable value, but it's also taken for granted until you don't have it any more.
OK, I'll rephrase that as "why shouldn't the amount you pay correspond to what it cost someone to provide you that service?"
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby natraj » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:05 pm UTC

Monty40xi wrote:OK, I'll rephrase that as "why shouldn't the amount you pay correspond to what it cost someone to provide you that service?"


That's not what's being discussed, though. The amount I would pay, if I had health insurance, apparently wouldn't correspond to what it costs them to provide me that service; it would correspond to what they pretend it would cost to provide me that service, based on the fact I have two X chromosomes, and not on things like my actual health status.
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:27 pm UTC

So...health insurance companies are just out to get women? All of them?

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26824
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:50 pm UTC

Yes. That's exactly what they're saying. Clearly we believe this is nothing more than a malicious sexist move on the part of all insurance companies to screw over women, rather than a profit-driven decision that nevertheless ends up being unfair and sexist...

In other words, no. And I think you know this, but wanted to throw up a nice fat straw man for the hell of it.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
roc314
Is dead, and you have killed him
Posts: 1356
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:48 am UTC
Location: A bunker, here behind my wall
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby roc314 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:53 pm UTC

Monty40xi wrote:It's not "just because they happen to have two X chromosomes." It's "just because they are statistically more likely to actually incur greater health care costs."

Why shouldn't the amount you pay correspond to the value of what you're getting?
Sorry, I could have phrased that better. I meant that although only some women have more treatment than men, all women are charged more. If you are charging more because it costs more, fine. But that is not true for all women, so stop charging all of them more just for having two X chromosomes.

Gunfingers wrote:So...health insurance companies are just out to get women? All of them?
They're out to get more money, and in this case, it appears to intersect with being "out to get women".

Edit: ninja'd.
Hippo: roc is the good little communist that lurks in us all
Richard Stallman: Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.
suffer-cait: roc's a pretty cool dude

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:56 pm UTC

None of that explains the "Just because i'm a woman" bit. People screw other people over, it's the nature of humanity. It's very rarely gender specific.

User avatar
kinigget
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:56 pm UTC
Location: the wild wild west

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby kinigget » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:09 am UTC

while this is true, you forget that some racism and sexism and all those other forms of discrimination are usually the reasons given, and are sometimes the direct cause. I'm sure I'm saying this badly but I can't think of any other way to put it.
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:I can tell from his word choice that he is using his penis to type.

Steax wrote:I think the courts are kinda busy right now. Something about cake and due process.

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby T-Form » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:25 am UTC

Monty40xi wrote:OK, I'll rephrase that as "why shouldn't the amount you pay correspond to what it cost someone to provide you that service?"

Because health isn't a service to an individual, it's a universal right, and everyone is responsible for ensuring that rights are upheld. If we don't agree there, then I doubt we can have a useful discussion without a deeper analysis of the labour-mixing principle, the Lockean Proviso, Nozick's appropriation and rectification principles, the true meaning of self-ownership, and a bunch of other stuff that doesn't really belong in here.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:16 am UTC

Gunfingers wrote:None of that explains the "Just because i'm a woman" bit. People screw other people over, it's the nature of humanity. It's very rarely gender specific.


They screw women over because it will make them money.

They get away with it based on a sexist rationalization (that simply by virtue of being female, your care will cost more).

And further more, whether it's motivated by sexism or not, it doesn't fucking matter. It can be motivated by the bloody I Ching. It's unfairly biased against women, and that is fucked up just the same as it would be in the oft-used example of higher costs for black people.

Also, why did this thread turn into a discussion of universal healthcare? Ye gods.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

Monty40xi
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:21 am UTC

Belial wrote: Also, why did this thread turn into a discussion of universal healthcare? Ye gods.
Dunno. Got a different suggestion?
Occam's Quandary: any idea can be made to sound like the simpler one.

User avatar
Azrael
CATS. CATS ARE NICE.
Posts: 6491
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:16 am UTC
Location: Boston

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Azrael » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:26 am UTC

Feminism?

User avatar
KingLoser
Obnoxious Distraction
Posts: 458
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:04 pm UTC
Location: Port Láirge, Éire
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby KingLoser » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:27 am UTC

Also, why did this thread turn into a discussion of universal healthcare? Ye gods.

Think it had something to do with young males having to pay higher car insurance. Then females and health insurance came into it.. and then I started skimming.
Add me on: Last.fm | Facebook | Flickr doodz.
Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt díog dúnta.

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3476
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:43 am UTC

And car insurance does not work because you don't pay more to help to you, but to cover the people you might hurt. Health insurance is supposed to help you.

At least some people saw the problem.
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests