The radical idea that women are people

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EmptySet
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby EmptySet » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:16 pm UTC

Actually, speaking of that, there are roast chestnut stands in the streets where live. Er, that is, stands selling roast chestnuts, not made of them. Anyway, they recently had signs up written in thick black marker, saying they were looking for girls to work the stands. Someone had clearly said "Uh, you know there are anti-discrimination laws in this country, right?" because "(And guys)" had been penciled in in one corner in letters about a quarter the size. And yes, every chestnut stand I've seen has been manned (pun intended) by a woman, generally a young one of Indian or Asian appearance. Probably students. I'm not sure if it's because they think pretty girls will sell more (I suppose a guy asking passersby if they want his nuts might look bad, haha), or because they think they can get women to work for less, or whether the stands are just run by some strange person who has arbitrarily decided that "chestnut salesperson" is Womens' Work and not to be done by men.

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Felstaff » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:37 pm UTC

I have never come across a female nutseller in the street! They are predominantly fat, unshaven men of Eastern European extraction with dubious fashion sense. Also, most bartenders I have come across are male, except non-cocktail-wielding nightclub staff. I guess this is what happens when you live in a land where folks wear hats on their feet and hamburgers eat people.

...anyway, I do not wish to be a job snob, but I think most inequality in employment stems from skilled work (i.e. office roles [above administration/clerical] and above) rather than unskilled labour. The status quo of corporations is that they wish the 'face' of their company (check-out staff, receptionists, secretaries--unskilled jobs where the people are what the customers first see) to be aesthetically pleasing, as it gives a positive image to the company. This is why they rarely focus on the appearance and hygiene of their IT staff. Also, on a list of "Most Beautiful People", I'm pretty sure, aside from Zachary Quinto, it would be dominated by women, which is most probably why many customer-facing roles are female dominated (i.e. "check out girls" ...I mean that as a job description, not an order)

It's a sexist culture, perpetuated by a society that peddles make-up to the masses, and I disagree with it. And I'm not about to admit the number of Zachary Quinto posters I have on my walls.


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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby pseudoidiot » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:45 pm UTC

But how many on your ceiling?
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:49 pm UTC

pseudoidiot wrote:But how many on your ceiling?

That's where he keeps Zachary Quinto.

If Zachary behaves himself, the Vulcan ears can come off.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby viscusanima » Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:00 pm UTC

You've just managed to make my day considerably better by mentioning how beautiful Zachary Quinto is. Thank you.

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:22 pm UTC

:shock: I hadn't noticed that before. Waiters are disappearing. NOOOOOoooOooOOOOOOooOooOoo.

I mean, I personally would rather be served by a woman, but then, I'm attracted to women, so that's a terrible shock. That being said, it so doesn't matter it hurts me in my communisms, and in fact they could probably make more money by hiring 'cute' guys as Waiters, given that women(het/bi) make up the largest portion of the populace, or they could even cover both bases by, le gasp, hiring both!

What a mystifying idea! Hiring two genders to do the same job! Ha ha ha ha!
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby viscusanima » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:46 pm UTC

Insignificant Deifaction wrote:What a mystifying idea! Hiring two genders to do the same job! Ha ha ha ha!


Don't be ridiculous, that will never work.

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby OverBored » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:24 pm UTC

That's what they said about the ferret rifle, but who's laughing now!!
Mainly badgers

I really do not notice the gender of my waiter/waitress. Maybe my libido is playing up again.

Bias in check-out staff is both not very nice, and downright stupid. I know of no people that are going to get to the checkout and decide to change shops because of the gender of the staff. It is already a bit late, and as long as the worker isn't a douche, it is a completely unmemorable occasion.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:04 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:The status quo of corporations is that they wish the 'face' of their company (check-out staff, receptionists, secretaries--unskilled jobs where the people are what the customers first see) to be aesthetically pleasing, as it gives a positive image to the company. This is why they rarely focus on the appearance and hygiene of their IT staff. Also, on a list of "Most Beautiful People", I'm pretty sure, aside from Zachary Quinto, it would be dominated by women, which is most probably why many customer-facing roles are female dominated (i.e. "check out girls" ...I mean that as a job description, not an order.
In my experience the majority of people on the exposed surface of a company are girls, motherly women and camp men. Hitting all three segments of the male market.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Chai Kovsky » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:46 pm UTC

Naturally. You know, the important market.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby <nyssa> » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:07 am UTC

OverBored wrote:Bias in check-out staff is both not very nice, and downright stupid. I know of no people that are going to get to the checkout and decide to change shops because of the gender of the staff. It is already a bit late, and as long as the worker isn't a douche, it is a completely unmemorable occasion.
Maybe not change shops, but change checkout queues? Yes. I worked as a checkout girl for three years, and quite a number of people would come through my aisle saying something like "I was in his line, but I don't want to be served by a boy"/"Did you run out of staff and have to get someone from the back dock?"/"See? Your line is fast, male checkout operators are always slow". These people were almost invariably elderly ladies, but occasionally other people would express the same views.

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby thc » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:21 am UTC

bigglesworth wrote:In my experience the majority of people on the exposed surface of a company are girls, motherly women and camp men. Hitting all three segments of the male market.


Right, because gay men don't complain about campy queers EVERY OTHER SECOND.

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Kag » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:41 am UTC

Right, because the people who make these decisions pay attention to reality.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby thc » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:26 pm UTC

No need to get so defensive.

The point is, at least, according to my experience, that DOESN'T hit "all 3 segments" of the male market. I just found it cute :)

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby rainslash » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:01 am UTC

Belial wrote:Those fuckers had it coming. You saw Finding Nemo.


In the end, it was Nemo who had it coming. Do your research. Nemo DIED. There are still Seguls...
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby a_fuzzyduck » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:48 am UTC

<nyssa> wrote:
OverBored wrote:Bias in check-out staff is both not very nice, and downright stupid. I know of no people that are going to get to the checkout and decide to change shops because of the gender of the staff. It is already a bit late, and as long as the worker isn't a douche, it is a completely unmemorable occasion.
Maybe not change shops, but change checkout queues? Yes. I worked as a checkout girl for three years, and quite a number of people would come through my aisle saying something like "I was in his line, but I don't want to be served by a boy"/"Did you run out of staff and have to get someone from the back dock?"/"See? Your line is fast, male checkout operators are always slow". These people were almost invariably elderly ladies, but occasionally other people would express the same views.


Thank fuck its mainly old people, they tend to be more stubborn in their views, BUT, they will be dead sooner. Which is at least something, you have to admit.

Having said that, there seems to be metric tonnes of sexism in customer service anyway. Especially from the customers, who as we know are Right Some Of The Time And Wrong At Other Times Just Like EHHHHHHHHH Humanity In General
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby icanus » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:09 am UTC

<nyssa> wrote:
OverBored wrote:Bias in check-out staff is both not very nice, and downright stupid. I know of no people that are going to get to the checkout and decide to change shops because of the gender of the staff. It is already a bit late, and as long as the worker isn't a douche, it is a completely unmemorable occasion.
Maybe not change shops, but change checkout queues? Yes. I worked as a checkout girl for three years, and quite a number of people would come through my aisle saying something like "I was in his line, but I don't want to be served by a boy"/"Did you run out of staff and have to get someone from the back dock?"/"See? Your line is fast, male checkout operators are always slow". These people were almost invariably elderly ladies, but occasionally other people would express the same views.

Interestingly, when I was doing my time as a checkout grunt, I got the exact reverse - loads of customers who would make comments about how they preferred male checkout operators because we were always faster and didn't "waste time chatting with everyone", and lots of little old ladies who wanted to beserved by a "nice young man". I suspect that stupid customers just tailor their stupidity to whoever they happen to be confronted with when they get to the checkout.

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:03 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:Also, on a list of "Most Beautiful People", I'm pretty sure, aside from Zachary Quinto, it would be dominated by women

I... uhhh... Really? Zachary Quinto?

Hope his Wikipedia photo isn't an accurate representation then. :shock:
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Felstaff » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:14 pm UTC

Well of course it's not accurate. He doesn't even have the eyebrows or the bowl-cut in that illustration. I will be writing a letter of formal complaint to The Wikipedia.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:18 pm UTC

Significant improvement, though I'd be severely worried about anyone who has a fetish for Vulcan ears.

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Even more-so if their fetish was for half-Vulcan ears.



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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby viscusanima » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

Zachary Quinto as Sylar was one of the sexiest, yet most evil (questionably) characters I've seen in a while. Just... mmmm.

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby sophyturtle » Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:36 pm UTC

I remember back in the day they did a countdown on MTV (or some such) of the 100 most beautiful people in the world. Brad Pitt was #2, Angelina Joli was #1. They joked about how if the 2 of them got together and had a child the world would implode from the beautiful.

Then it happened. Just wait till the twins are 18.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby rainslash » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:23 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:I remember back in the day they did a countdown on MTV (or some such) of the 100 most beautiful people in the world. Brad Pitt was #2, Angelina Joli was #1. They joked about how if the 2 of them got together and had a child the world would implode from the beautiful.

Then it happened. Just wait till the twins are 18.


Nobody point this out to Hollywood. We wouldn't want them to think they can decide who breeds.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby thc » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:26 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:I remember back in the day they did a countdown on MTV (or some such) of the 100 most beautiful people in the world. Brad Pitt was #2, Angelina Joli was #1. They joked about how if the 2 of them got together and had a child the world would implode from the beautiful.

Then it happened. Just wait till the twins are 18.

I like how the entire process is completely subjective, yet they try to make it seem completely objective. The entire idea of a "number one" is pretty absurd, IMO.

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:30 pm UTC

Yeah, Christina Hendricks, in my opinion, is far more attractive than Angelina Jolie. As is Jennifer Connelly. However, on both counts people would argue that I was wrong, and that they were not more attractive. Very eye of the beholder stuff.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Chai Kovsky » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:31 pm UTC

I fail to see how they can argue you are wrong. Aesthetics as a subjective thing and all that.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Alder » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:28 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:Well of course it's not accurate. He doesn't even have the eyebrows or the bowl-cut in that illustration.

Drat you. Now I need to watch the movie again.

(Fortunately I have it, so I can if I want...)
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby meatyochre » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:37 am UTC

I think the wiki image of Zach Quinto is very accurate. And very gorgeous (but then I adore geek glasses and thick, well-groomed eyebrows). Commencing swoonage.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby uncommon knowledge » Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:05 am UTC

Just a few things to consider:

Autism, which mostly affects males (especially boys being raised by single
[often misandrist] mothers) & which has been hyped to the hilt as a devastating "epidemic" (a position with which many autists/Aspergians vehemently disagree) with little or no consideration by most of the media & much of society at large as to other characterizations, was described back in 1944 by Hans Asperger
(which is where we get the terminology) as "an extreme variant of male intelligence". Autistic teen boys in Florida are now being "treated" with a drug (originally developed
as a last resort to combat prostate cancer) that causes a sort of chemical castration.

It is still exclusively men who are required by law to register for selective service/the draft.

Warren Farrell, who remains the only man ever elected to the board of directors of the U.S. National Organization For Women 3 times in a row, has (along with raising daughters)
spent the past couple of decades writing books such as "The Myth Of Male Power"
& "Why Men Earn More", among others &, a few years ago, co-founded
the U.S. National Organization For Men with fellow author Marty Nemko.

"Mr. Big Stuff" by Jean Knight ("I'd rather give my love to a broke guy
who has the love I need...") & "Material Girl" by Madonna ("...'cause the guy
with the cold, hard cash is always Mr. Right...") were both #2 hits on the U.S. pop charts only about a dozen years apart & have long been celebrated as feminist anthems;
how many women have now grown up considering both of these songs favorites
(even personal mantras) without ever recognizing the blatant contradiction??

Men evidently do not hold a monopoly on fear of commitment, as may also be demonstrated by "Thelma & Louise" (a favorite film of many women), in which an initially lustful, assertive title character suddenly backs off from sex at the last minute.
Last edited by uncommon knowledge on Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:03 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby TaintedDeity » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:49 pm UTC

What's your point?
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Oregonaut » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:54 pm UTC

That he lives under a small bridge crossing a stream, and has a club. He'd like some money, or food if you please.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby podbaydoor » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:54 pm UTC

No, he wants your billy goat.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:58 pm UTC

uncommon knowledge wrote:(especially boys being raised by single [often misandrist] mothers)
[citation needed]

was described back in 1944 by Hans Asperger (which is where we get the terminology) as "an extreme variant of male intelligence".
That doesn't mean this was necessarily a correct description, though.

Autistic teen boys in Florida are now being "treated" with a drug (originally developed as a last resort to combat prostate cancer) that causes a sort of chemical castration.
Does the drug work to treat the symptoms of autism? Are the symptoms of that condition worse than the side effects of the drug? Because it's pretty common for medications for neurological conditions to have significant side effects, which have to be weighed against the benefits of the medication. Just listing one of the side effects isn't sufficient to prove anything about the medication.

As to the rest: No one in this or any other thread is denying that there are some problems men face disproportionately because of their gender. By and large, this is *also* the fault of the patriarchal gender norms still prevalent in our society, and would similarly be solved by questioning those roles at every opportunity.

But yeah, you're probably just trolling and so unless your next post includes *anything* to suggest that you're interested in a good-faith participation in this discussion, you will be treated as such.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby GraphiteGirl » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:03 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:No, he wants your billy goat.

We don't mention the billy goat.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby uncommon knowledge » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:40 am UTC

How many of those who want to "fight", "heal", "cure" or "prevent" autism are single mothers of autistic sons? While men (especially fathers) are always expected to accept
that females have different needs than males, many women (Octomom being only the most blatant example) seem to think of motherhood as just one, long, endless celebration
of their own femininity. Instead of recognizing (& trying to accommodate) the different needs of the sexes, such mothers (unwittingly or deliberately or maybe a little of both) impose a feminine (even an ideologically feminist) perspective on any sons they might have, even if this isn't immediately (or outwardly) apparent.

Is describing autism as "an extreme variant of male intelligence"
any more dubious than classifying it as a "disease" or "disorder" instead of considering
the possibility that it's a symptom (or, perhaps, more to the point, that the stigmatization of it is a symptom) of a broader problem? What if a "disease" or "disorder"
that had been labeled "an extreme variant of female intelligence"
(even if that was thought to be an incorrect or outdated description)
were being "treated" with a drug that halted the production of female hormones
(estrogen or progesterone)? Would there be objections to that?

What about the relatively few female autists. most of whom are evidently
on the lighter side of the "spectrum" & some of whom are even self-diagnosed
(which results in them being much less subjected to interference or intervention
by family/friends/health care/community/authorities & instead being mostly
just encouraged to demand unconditional acceptance by others, whereas if this
were a male [even an exactly-the-same autistic], he'd likely be patronized, persecuted, ridiculed, called a "troll" & so on)? If autism is tied to masculinity, perhaps the female autists are the same types who used to be referred to as "tomboys" or as being
"just like one of the guys".

We can't pretend that women in the 21st Century (at least in some countries,
especially the U.S.) don't hold positions of great power. Anyone who does
is simply in denial. With this power come matriarchal gender norms that many
(both men & women) have thus far been slow to acknowledge. I'm not against women
in positions of power, but there's often been quite a dearth of humility involved
& an all-too-frequent tendency to blame everything on men &/or male power
structures, which aren't terribly prevalent anymore.
Last edited by uncommon knowledge on Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:18 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:45 am UTC

uncommon knowledge wrote:How many of those who want to "fight", "heal", "cure" or "prevent" autism are single mothers of autistic sons?

Why don't you find out the actual number/ratio, and then get back to us if your theory still holds water?

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Kewangji » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:11 am UTC

uncommon knowledge wrote:…er norms that many (both men & women) have thus far been slow to acknowledge. I'm not against women in positions of power, but there's often been quite a dearth of humility involved & an all-too-frequent tendency to blame everything on men &/or male power structures, which aren't terribly prevalent anymore.
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uncommon knowledge
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:18 am UTC

Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby uncommon knowledge » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:47 am UTC

http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Preventing-Autism-Complete-Guide/product-reviews/0525951032/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

http://incorrectpleasures.blogspot.com/

http://autisticbfh.blogspot.com/2008/01/autism-speaks-silences-autistic-child.html

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/national_world&id=6788390

http://www.misandryreview.com/misandry-review/2010/08/06/castration-drug-given-to-kids-as-autism-therapy/


Sorry I don't have anything more definitive to recommend at the moment,
but maybe you'd like to wait until Jenny McCarthy books are required reading
at every high school, or until appropriate statistics are made part of the U.S. Census,
or until every male is a sterile eunuch.
Last edited by uncommon knowledge on Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:19 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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podbaydoor
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:27 pm UTC

Have you seen the Forbes 500 lately? Or how about the U.S. Congress? Supreme Court? Number of women Presidents or members of the cabinet? Every state legislature?

Yeah, we really need to fear the scary women ogres taking over the country.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

The Mighty Thesaurus
In your library, eating your students
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:35 pm UTC

Fucking cream soda, amirite?
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