The radical idea that women are people

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Triangle_Man
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Triangle_Man » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:02 pm UTC

Ashlah wrote:You would think so.

Except that some people seem to think differently for some reason, right?
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Menacing Spike » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:11 am UTC

I don't get the message in the previous comics. "Porn make you evil" or something? How does that make sense?

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby lutzj » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:19 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:I don't get the message in the previous comics. "Porn make you evil" or something? How does that make sense?


I think the point is more precisely that porn is inherently exploitative and perverse.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby ShootTheChicken » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:23 am UTC

lutzj wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:I don't get the message in the previous comics. "Porn make you evil" or something? How does that make sense?


I think the point is more precisely that porn is inherently exploitative and perverse.


I'ma disagree wichy'all there.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Triangle_Man » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:52 am UTC

ShootTheChicken wrote:
lutzj wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:I don't get the message in the previous comics. "Porn make you evil" or something? How does that make sense?


I think the point is more precisely that porn is inherently exploitative and perverse.


I'ma disagree wichy'all there.


Please elaborate your position...
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby doogly » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:12 am UTC

Which comic are you reading?
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:17 am UTC

I'm gonna guess one of these two:

http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4302
http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4303

Though there appears to be some sort of ongoing storyline and I can't be bothered to go track down the rest.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Magnanimous » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:22 am UTC

I don't know that that second comic critizes pornography in general... Just the exploitative kind.

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby ShootTheChicken » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:31 am UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:
ShootTheChicken wrote:
lutzj wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:I don't get the message in the previous comics. "Porn make you evil" or something? How does that make sense?


I think the point is more precisely that porn is inherently exploitative and perverse.


I'ma disagree wichy'all there.


Please elaborate your position...


Erm, I don't think pornography is inherently exploitative. A lot of it, probably, but not inherently. Ditto with perverse. There's nothing inherently perverse about watching 2+ people nailing each other.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:38 am UTC

Though there's clearly something perverse about watching 1 person nailing each other.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby PeteP » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:57 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Though there's clearly something perverse about watching 1 person nailing each other.

There is nothing wrong with inter Hivemind sex!

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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:51 pm UTC

ShootTheChicken wrote:
Triangle_Man wrote:
ShootTheChicken wrote:
lutzj wrote:I think the point [of those comics] is more precisely that porn is inherently exploitative and perverse.
I'ma disagree wichy'all there.
Please elaborate your position...
Erm, I don't think pornography is inherently exploitative.
I don't think lutzj thinks that, either, and never said otherwise.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Menacing Spike » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:01 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Though there's clearly something perverse about watching 1 person nailing each other.

There is nothing wrong with inter Hivemind sex!



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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Роберт » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:03 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Though there's clearly something perverse about watching 1 person nailing each other.

There is nothing wrong with inter Hivemind sex!

I think you mean intra.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Von Haus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:53 am UTC

So a friend who I'd previously thought was pretty good on the whole equality front but occasionally shows the odd MRA point of view posted this on facebook.

Spoilered for general unpleasantness.
Spoiler:
RAAAAAAGE.jpg
RAAAAAGE!!!!!!

So, some of the concepts are "true" but the whole thing is done in such a way as to have rather spoiled my morning.


He's an intelligent guy and I'm pretty sure he can be brought around to a decent way of thinking, but I'm not sure how best to go about doing so. Any suggestions on how I can counter the image and the general ideas in it without pushing him further away from feminism?
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Jplus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:27 am UTC

I think this especially needs a lot of clarity and explicitness. What, according to you, is the general message of this cartoon? What does your friend think is the message of the cartoon, and why did he post it? Ask your friend what he thinks, then tell him what you think. He might not "get" it at your first attempt, in that case stay patient with him and try to explain your point again in a different way. Approach it like a free discussion, nothing personal. If he manages to outrun your patience, give up for the time being and suggest to talk about it later again (perhaps also do this if his patience seems to run out).
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Роберт » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:28 pm UTC

Von Haus wrote:He's an intelligent guy and I'm pretty sure he can be brought around to a decent way of thinking, but I'm not sure how best to go about doing so. Any suggestions on how I can counter the image and the general ideas in it without pushing him further away from feminism?

Well, I DO think some of the stuff in there is a legitimate concern. People need to take assault (both normal physical and sexual assault) against men seriously, and they often don't. I think on thing the cartoon is missing/downplaying is the context of men wielding power over women so that they weren't even allowed to vote is in the recent past in our country, and the percentage of women that have been raped is much higher than the percentage of men.

The cartoon isn't wrong, it's just missing some context as to why things like "man randomly kissing women" is seen more strongly as a negative. Although, honestly, if you kiss someone without pausing to read body language, that's very bad and you'd be rightly charged with sexual harassment or whatever if it turns out that the person didn't want it. Regardless of who is doing the kissing or whom is being kissed.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Von Haus » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:44 pm UTC

Thanks for the advice you two. I still came in a bit hard at the start and one of my arguments/explanations was rather poor but we've now managed to get to the point where we're broadly agreeing on how the issues are definitely problems but the image itself is pretty awful as it oversimplifies the issue to the point of irrelevancy and more importantly portrays it as an "us versus them" struggle of oppression which does more harm than good.

For the sake of posterity here's how the end of the conversation played out:
Spoiler:
Me wrote:Yeah I do personally believe the oversimplifying thing is a big issue. Unfortunately the whole issue is so damn complex that everything will to some extent be a simplification, but I'd say that when that's the case we should be extra vigilant not to oversimplify things. I definitely wouldn't say the things are trivial, not at all, and it's also definitely fine for any issue to be the emphasised focal point of a discussion. But it should always be kept in mind that they are interlinked with everything else that and ignoring that completely does not add clarity as much as remove from reality and relevance. Does that make any sense?
Maybe, though the macho side wasn't what I was seeing in it. It was the transactional view of sex, that women are guardians of their vagina and men must act to get it off of them, and when that happens it is a victory for the man, hence the victory cigar. That is itself is a huuuuuuuge issue linked to so many other things, including the "paying for meals" side of things next to it. The cigar is not directly related to the different police and societal responses to molestation issue in this instance but I still saw it as a potential warning flag for the intended message of the writer.

Pictures of starving Africans have actually at times been shown to reduce charitable donations. But that's by the by. Am I right in thinking you meant appalled instead of applauded? I think a lot of people will see its simplified message and draw the conclusion that actually men are being disadvantaged, not women, which is the only message the image gives. So that shifts the focus to look at your problems not other peoples', but it doesn't actually help solve them at all because as I've said (like a broken record) it's all interlinked. You can't properly tackle one of the parts without tackling all of the others and the underlying principles behind them. And the result of the image in the comments seems to be an increase in hatred for women, not anything productive towards tackling the problem, because it's to simplified to give any means of doing that, or even thinking about what needs to be done.

I think we're largely in agreement on most of the issues that matter. I guess really it's unfortunate because I fully agree with the message you're getting from the image but find the actual image itself pretty dire; the aforementioned victory cigar and the one about women need help when doing physical or other work aren't great. And the two on the far left just seem to be simplifying the topics to the point of ignorance. Take the domestic abuse one, yeah, abuse of men by women is seriously under-considered. This links in to a thousand different issues:
Men can't be victims - linked to the idea that showing any form of weakness is "girly" and therefore bad. (because girly totally equals bad)
Women are passive and have things done to them, men are active and do things.
Men are supposed to be able to protect themselves and their family, women need protecting.
Violence is often considered manly and a good thing against the girly emotions and talking, thus making it harder for men to protect themselves with non-physical acts.
That's just some of the issues that first come to mind and I'm sure you can see how they can be linked to the other topics raised in that image as well.

Sexism; it's complicated, and we're not even including how this intersects with race, non-binary genders, age, ableism, etc. And simplifying it down to an us or them mentality which is a fundamental principle of that image's very structure makes it even harder to actually start tearing at the strands that bind all the issues together and tackling the problem itself.
him wrote:Like the first paragraph, that's a nice way of expressing it. I see what you were getting at with the cigar now, to be honest I did find that part a bit odd, if it's trying to paint men as 'oppressed' why make him look like the dick. Thank you for making the assumption i didn't want people to applaud starving Africans (darn my hasty use of spell check) ;P
I think the fourth paragraph hits the nail on the head, we all broadly agree with what the problems are and the kind of society we would prefer to live in. It's just how to tackle this that we seem to diverge. You clearly want to take a more pro-active approach to this than me. Can't think how to properly express why I'm not fully comfortable in taking an active role in changing how people act without sounding like I don't mind there being sexism in the world. May have to get back to you on that one. Sexism; it's complicated. (Think we've got a tag line there)


I think I can count that as a success. Right?
If there are any problems or things that could be better with what I said I'd definitely appreciate any pointers on talking about these issues more effectively.
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Malconstant » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:36 pm UTC

Lacking all context other than what was written out, I would parrot what I saw Jplus and Po6ept getting at. The cartoon to me comes off as being a little dated. Obviously the context of the cartoon is still spot on in many places, but it speaks to a more gendered perspective than what I perceive around me these days. About half of them had to do with the idea of being perceived as a pervert (a term that is basically universally problematic and unproductive), which I haven't really heard used since high school.

I guess, your demeanor in approach seemed to be "this guy really screwed up here, but I know he's a good / rational guy, so I'll try and set him straight, how can I best accomplish this?" And you finished with "I think I can count that as a success. Right?" Whereas it's easy to read the message of the cartoon to be "situations where men and women have different expectations and consequences to actions can be problematic", and that by itself shouldn't really be objectionable.

Obviously that cartoon is not a good characterization of the issues it portrays, it's hardly a complete, balanced, well-rounded argument, and makes some odd assumptions about societal expectations. I don't think it has much virtue really, but I'm also not sure that it's really necessary for a single cartoon to accurately portray the many-faceted sides of an issue in order to be okay. In fact as a rule, single cartoons never do this, rather they convey a single idea, with some context, and run with it. Cartoons are just not a good medium for a serious discussion of ideas, but that doesn't mean that they need to be actively discouraged whenever they pop up.

The same goes for a more broad context of humor. It's nearly impossible to tell a joke that is well-rounded, productive, balanced, and funny. Rather what allows one to laugh is an implicit understanding of shared values. Humor requires this trust and understanding, this empathy. Though again, I'm talking about broad strokes here, the cartoon in question was more about misguided anger than being funny. I just say this to throw in a word of caution about jumping to negative conclusions when you see something like a cartoon.

tl;dr more of this:
"What, according to you, is the general message of this cartoon? What does your friend think is the message of the cartoon, and why did he post it? Ask your friend what he thinks, then tell him what you think."
less of this:
"RAAAAAGE!!!!!!", "I'm pretty sure he can be brought around to a decent way of thinking", "without pushing him further away from feminism", "I think I can count this as a success. Right?"

Good dialogue is all about empathy and understanding
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Re: The radical idea that women are people

Postby Jplus » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:22 am UTC

"Seek first to understand, then to be understood".

@Von Haus: I'm not entirely sure whether you can count this as a full success (because "him" doesn't seem to be giving much guarantees about his future behaviour), but you definitely made some good progress.
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