The radical idea that women are people

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

User avatar
Chai Kovsky
Posts: 1652
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:36 pm UTC
Location: Californication

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Chai Kovsky » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:51 pm UTC

Yes I know I'm back-and-forth posting, but I really feel the need to reply to this. I'll stop after this.

Belial wrote:Needless to say, I think democratic votes on civil rights issues are a heinously bad idea. Nevermind the fact that they've rarely, if ever, worked before.

They are A Bad Idea, I completely agree. They have screwed us over in several states already. All the more reason we needed it to NOT be put to a vote. If it had gone through the legislature, I very much doubt it would have made it onto the ballot to screw us over. But it went to the courts, people were angry (especially since California passed that Prop before as a law), so it went to a vote and we predictably got screwed. Now we have three options:
1. Try to get the courts to declare it an illegal constitutional revision at the state level
2. Try to get it to SCotUS to over turn all gay marriage bans
3. Try to get it overturned at the state level on the next election.

If we go with Option 1, as I've said earlier, it will give the opposition ammo that "the will of the people were thwarted." That will help to pass marriage bans in other states or strengthen the opposition to gay marriage in California. Pyrrhic victory.

I don't think SCotUS is going to take up the case yet; the court is too conservative and doesn't want to bother with it. Even if it does, it could end up being a Plessy v. Ferguson rather than a Brown v. Board. Eventually SCotUS will decide, but it's a long time from now.

I support Option 3. Opposition to gay marriage, as evidenced by the propositions on the ballots, decreased from 60% to 52% in California since 2000. If it is put on the ballot again in a few years, it will probably give us marriage rights, plus we will have a mandate by the people.

I think part of the problem was that California's referendum system is more broken than D&D 3.5e; we're now forced to rely on the people. As such, we need their goodwill. It's shit, but it's what we've got.
Spoiler:
kellsbells wrote:¡This Chai is burning me!
Chai Kovsky wrote:I can kill you with my brain.

That is all.
superglucose wrote:In other words: LISTEN TO CHAI.
Delayra wrote:Yet another brilliant idea from Chai!

I <3 Pirate.Bondage!

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Indon » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:06 pm UTC

Giving the opposition "ammo" is irrelevant. They have "ammo" already - massive funding from socially conservative groups - and a way to outlet it in the form of religious discontent, the perception of religious persecution, moral decay, you name it. You wouldn't be giving conservatives anything they don't already have.

Meanwhile, your option 2 is the only one that fixes the problem. Option 1 gives them leave to try again in at least California, and Option 3 gives them leave to try everywhere else. I understand if you think the Supreme Court isn't ready, but anything done until then is just killing time.

Edit: And what's wrong with back-and-forth?
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
kinigget
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:56 pm UTC
Location: the wild wild west

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby kinigget » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:46 pm UTC

Decker wrote:
Rinsaikeru wrote:Being loud and agressive is only one way to be a feminist Decker--as long as you support those who are working for feminism and work for it in your own way you can avoid status quo. As long as you are aware that changes still need to happen, y'know?

I know change needs to happen, I just don't want to draw attention to myself by doing anything about it.
It's selfish, I know.

hell, I would never be able to be loud and aggressive, it's completely against my nature. But I can still chew people out over the internet. Truly the internet is a wonderful thing, Gabriel's Greater Internet Fucktard theory works both ways if you ask me. The anonymity can encourage shy people to speak up online, and possibly even in real life. I know I've been a lot less shy since joining this forum. Just keep reading the thread, make comments where you have something to say, and learn from the responses.
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:I can tell from his word choice that he is using his penis to type.

Steax wrote:I think the courts are kinda busy right now. Something about cake and due process.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:56 pm UTC

*suggests that the prop 8 discussion belongs elsewhere than in the Feminism thread*
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
Chai Kovsky
Posts: 1652
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:36 pm UTC
Location: Californication

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Chai Kovsky » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:57 pm UTC

Quixotess wrote:*suggests that the prop 8 discussion belongs elsewhere than in the Feminism thread*

Yeah. It originally began as an analogy to "taking aggressive steps" that spun out of control.
Spoiler:
kellsbells wrote:¡This Chai is burning me!
Chai Kovsky wrote:I can kill you with my brain.

That is all.
superglucose wrote:In other words: LISTEN TO CHAI.
Delayra wrote:Yet another brilliant idea from Chai!

I <3 Pirate.Bondage!

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:59 pm UTC

There's a very good thread in NA about it right now though.
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
Nath
Posts: 3148
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:14 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Nath » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:51 pm UTC

Indon wrote:Indeed - you're arguing that a measure to guarantee a place in oppressed workplaces for minorities will cause people who are already oppressing those minorities to oppress them more - even though they are no longer empowered to exclude them from their workplaces.

In my eyes, that's basically saying, 'let the oppressors win', and it's nonproductive. Why should we expect anyone to quietly give up a system that favors them? Why shouldn't we expect conflict and hostility when we try to change the system? And if we give up on trying to change the system just because that expected conflict and hostility would happen, then we're basically letting the indignation of those oppressors serve as a shield to let them continue on as they have been, unmolested, for as long as they like.

Yes, you should absolutely expect a certain amount of hostility when trying to change the system. Any measure -- even peaceful conversation -- will create some hostility, at least if it's working. The question is whether the net effect of a measure is to increase or decrease the amount of oppression in the long run. If it increases it, then it's a bad measure and should be abandoned. That's not letting the oppressors win; it's just good tactics.

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Indon » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:14 pm UTC

Nath wrote:Yes, you should absolutely expect a certain amount of hostility when trying to change the system. Any measure -- even peaceful conversation -- will create some hostility, at least if it's working. The question is whether the net effect of a measure is to increase or decrease the amount of oppression in the long run. If it increases it, then it's a bad measure and should be abandoned. That's not letting the oppressors win; it's just good tactics.


But won't any measure increase the amount of oppression by kicking in people's vested interest in the current system?
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
Chai Kovsky
Posts: 1652
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:36 pm UTC
Location: Californication

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Chai Kovsky » Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:14 pm UTC

Premise 1: Anger is pragmatic. It gets stuff done. I buy this.
Premise 2: The things achieved by feminism are Good Things. I buy this.
Logical conclusion: Using anger to achieve feminist ends is A Good Thing.

Problem: I hate being around angry people, I hate anger, I hate listening to angry stuff. I don't care whether I agree with it or not, I just personally can't stomach it. I hear the slightest bit of anger and I curl up into a little ball of scared or just walk away. I am eminently rational and will debate until the cows come home on pure logic (and it will take a while for the cows come home, given how few of them live in Los Angeles). But I don't like dealing with angry stuff myself.

Question: How can I help?
Spoiler:
kellsbells wrote:¡This Chai is burning me!
Chai Kovsky wrote:I can kill you with my brain.

That is all.
superglucose wrote:In other words: LISTEN TO CHAI.
Delayra wrote:Yet another brilliant idea from Chai!

I <3 Pirate.Bondage!

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:58 pm UTC

Educate yourself.

Largely what you'll do depends on how much of a time commitment you're willing to make. Ideally, you would do something like learn Spanish if you don't know it already, move to the border, and do rape crisis work for all the women who have been raped by men patrolling the border as a result of increased militarization.

But that's a lot to ask of you.

Know your local resources - rape crisis centers, DV/abuse hotlines, reproductive health clinics, women's shelters, all that jazz. Share this information with those who need it. Be able and ready to help women who ask - make yourself available to go with a friend to get an abortion or a pelvic (and make sure in advance that they know that you will do this if they ever want.) Know where further information is for women in need of it. (Know about sex ed sites especially.) Try to be someone that other women can come to if they have been raped or otherwise need help, if you are prepared emotionally for that yourself. Volunteer if you can, somewhere, as a Big Sister or in a senior center or at one of the myriad things they surely have in your college.

Speak up, firmly and calmly, when you hear someone spouting anti-woman or anti-feminist bullshit. If they want to fight about it, you don't have to let them. (You can usually just walk away.)

Educate yourself. That's how you learn to recognize anti-woman and anti-feminist bullshit in the first place. Just keep reading, and reading, and reading.* Take some courses on women's lit, or the psychology of gender, or whatever your college offers on the subject. Read some blogs. Donate monthly to your favorite.

Live feminism. Love your body, and be vocal about it. Break the silence about all the harassment you've experienced because you are a woman. Start discussions. Be a mentor to the young girls in your life (little cousins?) and compliment them on their accomplishments rather than on their dresses. Take back the night. (You don't have to do that alone! We have rallies!) Eat in public. Eat lots in public. Don't be ashamed to take up space. Don't take less than your fair share. Make yourself visible! In whatever you do, odds are women are underrepresented or undercredited or both. Simply by gaming/being on the internet/joining your hall council/doing activism/most things as a woman, you're raising awareness of women. I know it sounds silly, but in a culture where male is default and female is other, people will forget women do these things if you don't remind them.

Practice affirmative action on your own. Buy books by female authors and music by female artists. Read poetry by female poets. (*coughs, points to signature*) All else being equal, vote for women.

But it all comes from educating yourself. That's the most important thing. Keep learning and learning and learning, and that, I think, will naturally lead to action.

*If you want a few things to start out with, here are a few links. Dunno if you've gone through all the finallyfeminism101 posts, but do that, and not just the FAQs either. Melissa McEwan at Shakeville also has a feminism 101 series. Tekanji at Official Shrub has done a lot of work on privilege (including intersectionality) - I recommend everything on the sidebar at the right. Also look at everything on the sidebar at Bitch PhD. The Hathor Legacy is a great resource for critiques and discussions (don't skip the comment threads!) of books/movies/TV shows/etc. Guttmacher is priceless - read especially everything they have to say on abortion.

There, you won't get through all those in a day; and if you're like me, it'll take you on a wikipedian-style neverending linkfest adventure.

*waits for everyone to focus on one single sentence*
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Indon » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:56 pm UTC

Personally, I'm way, way too lazy to do most of that (also, not female, go figure).

I'd still recommend a few things to someone as lazy as me:

Quixotess wrote:Know your local resources - rape crisis centers, DV/abuse hotlines, reproductive health clinics, women's shelters, all that jazz.

Rape/abuse/etc happens, and it happens all the damn time, it's ridiculous. One or more of your friends will need these resources sooner or later, but if you aren't educated on it, then not only might you not be able to help them, but you might not even be able to notice they need help in the first place.

Quixotess wrote:Educate yourself. That's how you learn to recognize anti-woman and anti-feminist bullshit in the first place. Just keep reading, and reading, and reading.* Take some courses on women's lit, or the psychology of gender, or whatever your college offers on the subject. Read some blogs. Donate monthly to your favorite.

I do the lazy version of this, which is basically soak up the ambient feminism on forums such as this one, and I, uh, engage in discussions when appropriate. *cough*

Obviously, I can't really do the 'I am woman, hear me type' thing, but what I do is bear in mind my assumptions (that 'male is default' thing) in places like the internet - if I don't know someone's gender, I'll try to avoid referencing it, that sort of thing, and I imagine a woman could do that too.

Quixotess wrote:*waits for everyone to focus on one single sentence*


Sorry. Will 'single extrapolation' do?
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:45 pm UTC

Well, I tailored that to what I know of Chai Kovsky; namely that she is

1. A woman
2. in college
3. who wants to help
4. but can't handle anger

But a lot of what I said takes very little work. Complimenting little girls on their accomplishments and not on their dresses, for example. And refusing to tolerate misogyny in everyday conversations. That's something that women could really use men's help with.

Thinking about your thinking, like you said ("bear in mind my assumptions"), is really important. Like, every time you find yourself thinking "she's a bitch!" try to examine why you're thinking that. Because she's loud? Because she insists on her fair share? Because she's dominating the conversation? How would you react to the same behavior from a man? etc etc. I do this all the time.

I would also ask you to be someone that women don't have to fear. Don't touch when it's not wanted. Don't treat women's clothing as though its only possible purpose could be to titillate you. Don't rape. Don't hit. Don't harass. Don't mock women's appearances. Don't press your advantage. And don't let other men do any of that. Only you can prevent forest fires combat violence against women from a position of male privilege. Call them out! And maybe that is a lot of work, but...if you don't do it, you're part of the problem.

Indon wrote:Sorry. Will 'single extrapolation' do?

Eh, that wasn't what I was talking about. No worries.
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3476
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:08 am UTC

I have this poster my mom gave me. She used to have it hanging up in her house, but I loved it so much she gave it to me. It is called "100 Simple things you can do to end patriarchy"
I have listed them for knowledge and sharing. These are not inclusive nor for everyone (they have a lesbian target audience, for example) but they are nice little suggestions to help us think about how we live our days. (Another time if I have the energy I will add a pic of it. I really love it.)
Spoiler:
-Believe a woman.
-Resits a violent attack.
-Accept your body whatever size, ability, or shape.
-Make peace with yourself.
-Cook a meal with whole grains.
-Write a letter to a woman friend to let her know she is important to you.
-Tell her you love her.
-Honor the cultural heritage of Aboriginal peoples.
-Come clean and sober.
-Use as few non-renewable resources as possible.
-Pay attention to a child who is hurting.
-Support animal rights.
-Trust your intuition.
-Hold another woman.
-Dream & remember your dreams.
-Assume your ethnic and cultural identity is not normative.
-Grow flowers.
-Ask a disabled person if she needs help without deciding she needs what you want to offer.
-Interrupt self hating or self defeating messages in yourself.
-Talk with other women about the reality of their lives.
-Develop an analysis of woman hating and how it defines your thoughts and actions.
-Make love to yourself tenderly.
-Refuse to return aggression for aggression or escalate a conflict.
-Make friends with a woman of another generation without any patronization.
-Interrupt Racism.
-Devote yourself to healing from addictive behaviors.
-Wear sensible shoes.
-Don't go shopping the next time you feel badly.
-Love being lesbian.
-Develop a relationship with an animal without taming it.
-Free a caged bird into it's natural habitat.
-Stop violence against women every time.
-Be gentle.
-Pay attention to your body, especially the areas that are your femaleness: breasts, clitoris, vagina ovaries, hips, belly, head.
-Create an accessible event.
-Stop using terms that describe disability to mean lacking or bad such as blind, crippled, crazy, lame, deaf, sick, near sighted.
-Offer childcare relief to an overwhelmed mother.
-Spend time in woman only space.
-Believe there are enough resources to go around and be generous with yourself, friends, and strangers.
-Practice cooperation instead of competition in sports and games.
-Refuse to enter contests, lotteries, or raffles where there are winners and losers.
-Limit the number of your descendants.
-Hold violent people accountable for their choice to perpetuate violence.
-Learn self-defense.
-Grow vegetables organically.
-Walk to meetings, errands when ever you can.
-Teach a girl how to use carpentry tools.
-Meet a woman of another culture on her own cultural terms. Learn her language or folkways.
-Watch the moon rise on a full-moon night.
-Tell your women friends you intend to resist acts of violence against women.
-Don't laugh at woman hating jokes or anything that puts down a group of people.
-Take time to know what you are feeling.
-Learn to feel good about not being a good girl.
-Leave abusive situations as soon as you recognize it.
-Read books by non-white women authors.
-Eat vegetarian.
-Use cloth towels rags handkerchief diapers.
-Find out where your purchases come from and how they were made.
-Resist male-defined standards of beauty for females.
-Make your own musical instrument.
-Believe yourself effective.
-Catch your bloods with washable cotton pads.
-Share your story with other women.
-Throw out your TV.
-Learn a new living skill.
-Initiate a conversation with a disabled woman in which the subject of interest is not her disability.
-Avoid feeling isolated in your beliefs or feelings. Find someone you can talk to.
-Make Love.
-Support women artists.
-Take time to hear your inner voice.
-Discover the ableism in your own head against your body and work to reverse it.
-Thank a woman who helped you.
-Live your politics.
-Thank a lesbian separatist.
-Make new friends.
-Apologize if you offend someone. Don't tell her she is overly sensitive.
-Sing with lesbians.
-Remember to honor where you came from.
-Take care of your health.
-Love a female Earth.
-Practice anti-racism.
-Drop power and control from your list of needs.
-Redefine "sexy" within self-love as a woman.
-Validate your friendships.
-Trust your body's ability to heal itself.
-Skip "business as usual".
-Celebrate passages in your life with friends.
-Be as honest as you can.
-Follow your heart.
-Stop buying into stereotypes about any racial or ethnic group.
-Forgive your mistakes.
-Forget to have a career.
-Laugh.
-Be your own authority.
-Nurture yourself.
-Be.
-Don't take yourself too seriously.
-Invite spirit.
-Love yourself


Before anyone starts breaking them down one by one telling me who this one is wrong and that one is crap, just look at this as an example. These are just some things you can do (in a very non-specific way often), and they are a start. They are not judging if you don't do them, or tried but failed. I know I have failed at more than one of them many times (and part of me knows things would have turned out better if I had not). Still, every time I do one I smile.
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:20 am UTC

Your family is hippies. I say this with delight.

-Make friends with a woman of another generation without any patronization.

This one was my favorite.
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
Chai Kovsky
Posts: 1652
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:36 pm UTC
Location: Californication

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Chai Kovsky » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:26 am UTC

What interests me most, and what I like about it best, is how aware it is of intersectional oppression. At times I think it's a bit insensitive (though that's not quite the right word) compared to those in the communities themselves feel—I'm thinking particularly of the ones related to disabilities. But it's a really good piece, overall.
Cook a meal with whole grains.

Even if I hate whole grains :D

Edit: 200th post! Yay!
Spoiler:
kellsbells wrote:¡This Chai is burning me!
Chai Kovsky wrote:I can kill you with my brain.

That is all.
superglucose wrote:In other words: LISTEN TO CHAI.
Delayra wrote:Yet another brilliant idea from Chai!

I <3 Pirate.Bondage!

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:23 am UTC

*sigh* I was looking to take my own advice. I went to the Big Brothers Big Sisters website. They have separate pages for "Be a Big Brother" and "Be a Big Sister." Right away you know that's a bad sign. Sure enough...

Be a Big Brother wrote:Male Mentors Wanted! Though Big Brothers Big Sisters is always looking for volunteers from all walks of life, right now there is a greater need for men.

If you can play video games, you can be a Big Brother! You know how to play board games, talk about sports and go to recess — so what are you waiting for? Volunteer now! It really is that simple. Sign up today.

Being a Big Brother is one of the most rewarding things you will ever do. As a Big Brother, you get to be a kid again for an hour a week while you give a kid the invaluable gift of your friendship. Of the hundreds of boys waiting for a Big Brother right now, there’s one wanting to play video games, shoot hoops, or just hang out with someone just like you!

Why do we need Big Brothers?
More than 70% of our children are waiting for a Big are boys, but only three out of every 10 inquiries to volunteer come from men. Research shows that having the positive influence of a Big Brother makes a real difference in the life of a boy. So join the millions of volunteers that give a young person someone to look up to and learn why so many are now saying, “I get back so much more than I give.” [...]


Be a Big Sister wrote:Volunteering is fun! Being a Big Sister is simple and rewarding. It is as easy as showing your new Little Sister how to play a favorite computer game, bake an apple pie or reading the funnies together. We’ve learned that being someone special to a child doesn’t take much more than that. But the impact is huge—for both of you!
Children need the friendship and guidance of someone like YOU.

[...]

Looking for another way to help? Spread the word!!
Big Brothers Big Sisters is always looking for more men. Tell the guys you know to sign up to become Bigs. It's easy. They can do all the fun things they love to do already - like play video games, go fishing, even football - only they'd get to share it with Little company ... a child who would enjoy it as much as they do. They won't need to change their lives to impact the life of a child.


*sigh* Maybe this should go in the blog thread, but...

Okay, there are two separate things going on here that I tried to highlight. First is the differences between the possible activities described. Brothers are supposed to play video games and sports and go out to recess and talk about sports and go fishing. Sisters are supposed to read the comics, play computer games and...bake pies. OK. See, those first two don't sound so gendered, but notice that everything Sisters are supposed to do are indoor activities. Sisters are also given only one list of only three activities, while Brothers are given, well, more.

More disheartening still is the fact that considerable space in the Sister page is given over to extolling the virtues of Brothers. What can women do to help? They can get us some men. I get that they have a shortage of men. But how is that a women's problem? Seriously, seeing "We're always looking for more men!" on a page that's ostensibly for the recruitment of women sends a message loud and clear: they don't want me. Ouch. Excuse me, I'll go take up as little space as possible with my three activities and I'll give my women's page to the men - I wasn't using it anyway.

/bitter before her time
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
kinigget
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:56 pm UTC
Location: the wild wild west

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby kinigget » Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:26 am UTC

I noticed that the activities on both sides were stereotypical to gender, not just the . . . oh wait. That's what you just said isn't it? . . . I'll shut up now.
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:I can tell from his word choice that he is using his penis to type.

Steax wrote:I think the courts are kinda busy right now. Something about cake and due process.

sje46
Posts: 4730
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:41 am UTC
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sje46 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:28 am UTC

Why do you suppose the difference between video games and computer games are? I mean, why would girls be playing computer games and boys video games?

Spoiler:
Are Homers allowed to post? I'm sorry. I'll leave if I must.
EDIT: Ignore that. I thought this was the woman's thread by mistake.
General_Norris: Taking pride in your nation is taking pride in the division of humanity.
Pirate.Bondage: Let's get married. Right now.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:40 am UTC

Eh, I'm not sure I can read too much into computer games v. video games. Except maybe that they're trying to make sure that none of the Brother activities overlap with the Sister activities.

Edit: No, wait, here's a thought. Computer games generally only handle one player per computer. That is, if you're playing a computer game, you're probably sharing with the person next to you, not competing with them (although you may be competing with others online.) But with video games, you're more often competing with the person next to you. This fits with the only other "indoor" activity for Brothers - board games, which are competitive past the age of six. Sisters' activities are all cooperative. Just a thought.
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
Felstaff
Occam's Taser
Posts: 5178
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:10 pm UTC
Location: ¢ ₪ ¿ ¶ § ∴ ® © ™ ؟ ¡ ‽ æ Þ ° ₰ ₤ ಡಢ

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Felstaff » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:57 am UTC

Videogames, as far as I'm aware, is an Americanism. Computer Games is how we speaks 'em in these here parts. There's no difference between them, except the Atlantic Ocean.
Away, you scullion! you rampallion! You fustilarian! I'll tickle your catastrophe.

sje46
Posts: 4730
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:41 am UTC
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sje46 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:59 am UTC

In america (videogame plays you!) we say both. Videogames are more popular though, so I would not be surprised if someone called a computer game a videogame. No one, in my experience, calls a VG a CG.
General_Norris: Taking pride in your nation is taking pride in the division of humanity.
Pirate.Bondage: Let's get married. Right now.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:09 am UTC

Felstaff wrote:Videogames, as far as I'm aware, is an Americanism.

So is Big Brothers Big Sisters.
Raise up the torch and light the way.

sje46
Posts: 4730
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:41 am UTC
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sje46 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:48 am UTC

Quixotess wrote:Eh, I'm not sure I can read too much into computer games v. video games. Except maybe that they're trying to make sure that none of the Brother activities overlap with the Sister activities.

Edit: No, wait, here's a thought. Computer games generally only handle one player per computer. That is, if you're playing a computer game, you're probably sharing with the person next to you, not competing with them (although you may be competing with others online.) But with video games, you're more often competing with the person next to you. This fits with the only other "indoor" activity for Brothers - board games, which are competitive past the age of six. Sisters' activities are all cooperative. Just a thought.

Obciously you think that it's wrong that they are being treated differently. But which would you prefer? Do you want them both to be taught cooperative things (as opposed to competitive and aggressive), or for them both to be taught to be assertive, i.e. how the boys are being treated, or do you wish for both, or neither?
General_Norris: Taking pride in your nation is taking pride in the division of humanity.
Pirate.Bondage: Let's get married. Right now.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26528
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:35 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:
Quixotess wrote:Eh, I'm not sure I can read too much into computer games v. video games. Except maybe that they're trying to make sure that none of the Brother activities overlap with the Sister activities.

Edit: No, wait, here's a thought. Computer games generally only handle one player per computer. That is, if you're playing a computer game, you're probably sharing with the person next to you, not competing with them (although you may be competing with others online.) But with video games, you're more often competing with the person next to you. This fits with the only other "indoor" activity for Brothers - board games, which are competitive past the age of six. Sisters' activities are all cooperative. Just a thought.

Obciously you think that it's wrong that they are being treated differently. But which would you prefer? Do you want them both to be taught cooperative things (as opposed to competitive and aggressive), or for them both to be taught to be assertive, i.e. how the boys are being treated, or do you wish for both, or neither?



Big Brothers! Come help these little dudes! You guys can totally play basketball or play some video games or hell, teach the dude how to cook! It's a useful skill!

Big Sisters! See all the crap we just said about the Big Brothers? Do that!


...or just reference both of them on the same line.

Big Brothers and Sisters! Come hang out with these kids and teach them stuff, like how to change the oil in a car, or what goes in to pancakes!
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

Teapot
Posts: 1804
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:32 pm UTC
Location: Scotland. Edinburgh mostly.
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Teapot » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:37 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Big Brothers and Sisters! Come hang out with these kids and teach them stuff, like how to change the oil in a car, or what goes in to pancakes!

Just don't confuse the two...
Jessica wrote:Dammit, teapot is better than everyone else.
Moo wrote:
pseudoidiot wrote:Localized, non-contagious willy leprosy?
"I'm sorry, sir, it's LNWL. There's nothing we can do".

User avatar
Yuri2356
Posts: 729
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:00 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Yuri2356 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:43 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:-Cook a meal with whole grains.
-Use as few non-renewable resources as possible.

-Support animal rights.
-Grow flowers.
-Develop a relationship with an animal without taming it.
-Free a caged bird into it's natural habitat.

-Believe there are enough resources to go around and be generous with yourself, friends, and strangers.
-Practice cooperation instead of competition in sports and games.
-Refuse to enter contests, lotteries, or raffles where there are winners and losers.
-Limit the number of your descendants.
-Grow vegetables organically.
-Walk to meetings, errands when ever you can.
-Watch the moon rise on a full-moon night.
-Eat vegetarian.

-Use cloth towels rags handkerchief diapers.
-Find out where your purchases come from and how they were made.
-Catch your bloods with washable cotton pads.
-Throw out your TV.
-Thank a lesbian separatist.
-Love a female Earth.

-Drop power and control from your list of needs.
-Trust your body's ability to heal itself.
-Forget to have a career.

Shaved this down to the ones that feel painfully shoehorned and tangential to the issue of fighting sexism.

What does preference of gain flavours have to to with oppression? What's wrong with domestication? Or meat? Do patriarchs hate astronomy? If you're in and oppressed group, shouldn't power and control of your own life be one of your top priorities? Seems sort of opposed to a quest for freedoms 'n such.

The last two bold ones are just personally irksome. Both radiate a certain degree of celebrating misandry over equality, and earth-love (especially of anthro-lady earth) feeds into anti-science memes that have tormented me my entire life. And trying to bind Luddites and Hippies to something I actually support will get you sentenced to hammer-strikes.

But on a lighter note:

-Don't take yourself too seriously.


The world needs more of this. Levity is serious business.

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3476
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:45 pm UTC

In case it was not clear in my first post
Before anyone starts breaking them down one by one telling me who this one is wrong and that one is crap, just look at this as an example. These are just some things you can do (in a very non-specific way often), and they are a start.


They are not simply feminism, but dealing with patriarchy. I am sorry you dislike some of them.
Lets think about it a little.

They never say there is anything wrong with being domestic. One of the first lines wants you to cook things (just with whole grains that are better for your body). Watching the moon rise is a) taking time in your life to relax and interact with nature and b) recognizing a female symbol. The idea of Mother Earth is not new, I am sorry if it offends you (it is not based in man hating but in a variety of other imagery linked with fertility and caring for it's inhabitants, and is not meant to be anti-science in any way). This is a way to connect more with one's ladyness (since like I said it was targeted at lesbians). Along those lines lesbians have done some good things, things that help women and lesbians (so why not thank them instead of calling them man hating just this once?). The current production of meat is wasteful, harmful to the environment, and horrible to the animals (so why take offense when someone says not supporting it might be a good thing?).

And Yes, I can easily be seen as a hippy. I give back rubs and recycle. I am wiccan, and yes I worship the earth and nature using mostly female deities (sue me for having a good that looks like me when I was raised by feminists). Why is that a problem? I am also a scientist. My love, respect, and worship of nature stems form my understanding of how incredibly amazingly awesome it is. I am not the first nor the last scientist who allows science to inform my faith and not the other way around (I use the idea behind conservation of energy to form my reincarnation theory for example). There are many parts of me. The idea that I cannot be hippy-like because you think it makes my feminism somehow uprooted is worrisome.
Judging any part of me based on the stereotypes around it will not go over well.

I was going to say which is my favorite, but I like too many of them to pick just one.
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Indon » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:32 pm UTC

Isn't Big Brothers/Big Sisters based on a christian (and conservative) organization? That they're pretty entrenched isn't too surprising.

Quixotess wrote:/bitter before her time


It's always time to be bitter.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
As the Arbiter of Everything, Everything Sucks
Posts: 8314
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:17 pm UTC
Location: I FUCKING MOVED TO THE WOODS

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:15 pm UTC

Quixotess wrote:*sigh* I was looking to take my own advice. I went to the Big Brothers Big Sisters website. They have separate pages for "Be a Big Brother" and "Be a Big Sister." Right away you know that's a bad sign. Sure enough...

Be a Big Brother wrote:Male Mentors Wanted! Though Big Brothers Big Sisters is always looking for volunteers from all walks of life, right now there is a greater need for men.

If you can play video games, you can be a Big Brother! You know how to play board games, talk about sports and go to recess — so what are you waiting for? Volunteer now! It really is that simple. Sign up today.

Being a Big Brother is one of the most rewarding things you will ever do. As a Big Brother, you get to be a kid again for an hour a week while you give a kid the invaluable gift of your friendship. Of the hundreds of boys waiting for a Big Brother right now, there’s one wanting to play video games, shoot hoops, or just hang out with someone just like you!

Why do we need Big Brothers?
More than 70% of our children are waiting for a Big are boys, but only three out of every 10 inquiries to volunteer come from men. Research shows that having the positive influence of a Big Brother makes a real difference in the life of a boy. So join the millions of volunteers that give a young person someone to look up to and learn why so many are now saying, “I get back so much more than I give.” [...]


Be a Big Sister wrote:Volunteering is fun! Being a Big Sister is simple and rewarding. It is as easy as showing your new Little Sister how to play a favorite computer game, bake an apple pie or reading the funnies together. We’ve learned that being someone special to a child doesn’t take much more than that. But the impact is huge—for both of you!
Children need the friendship and guidance of someone like YOU.

[...]

Looking for another way to help? Spread the word!!
Big Brothers Big Sisters is always looking for more men. Tell the guys you know to sign up to become Bigs. It's easy. They can do all the fun things they love to do already - like play video games, go fishing, even football - only they'd get to share it with Little company ... a child who would enjoy it as much as they do. They won't need to change their lives to impact the life of a child.


*sigh* Maybe this should go in the blog thread, but...

Okay, there are two separate things going on here that I tried to highlight. First is the differences between the possible activities described. Brothers are supposed to play video games and sports and go out to recess and talk about sports and go fishing. Sisters are supposed to read the comics, play computer games and...bake pies. OK. See, those first two don't sound so gendered, but notice that everything Sisters are supposed to do are indoor activities. Sisters are also given only one list of only three activities, while Brothers are given, well, more.

More disheartening still is the fact that considerable space in the Sister page is given over to extolling the virtues of Brothers. What can women do to help? They can get us some men. I get that they have a shortage of men. But how is that a women's problem? Seriously, seeing "We're always looking for more men!" on a page that's ostensibly for the recruitment of women sends a message loud and clear: they don't want me. Ouch. Excuse me, I'll go take up as little space as possible with my three activities and I'll give my women's page to the men - I wasn't using it anyway.

/bitter before her time



I...while your assessment of this page is correct on a quantity level, as men get more adjectives and verbs, I disagree with this being something indicating an opressive patriarchy.
There appear to be more boys in the Big Brothers organization, but no excess of men. 1
They need more. So they're advertising for more. It's less 'women aren't as important' and more 'we sure do have a lot of lonely little boys'.

1- citations:
Spoiler:
"There is a great need for male volunteers as a majority of our referrals are for young boys who could really benefit from the time, attention and influence of a male role model," said Erikka Sherman, community development coordinator of BBBSWC.
Right now, we have over 200 children waiting for a mentor in their lives – over two thirds of which are boys. We especially need African American men to volunteer, as the majority of our waiting boys are African American.
http://media.www.dailytoreador.com/medi ... 0056.shtml
Heyyy baby wanna kill all humans?

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Jebobek » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:26 pm UTC

I think the solution is for me to be a Big Brother and make him bake pies and let him eat the pies. Then he'll go back and tell them how awesome Big Brothers are via pie.

Hmm or maybe a letter to the webmaster/someone in charge telling them that girls can do more than that, and its important for them to be strong and active in every way.

This kind of reminds me of boy scouts and girl scouts. I liked how in my Pennsylvania county we had some women that had their "brownie scout" girls go camping like the boys. I was really young so I dont remember if she referred to her girls as Brownie Scouts or Girl Scouts.
Image

User avatar
PictureSarah
Secretary of Penile Nomenclature
Posts: 4576
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:37 pm UTC
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby PictureSarah » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:36 pm UTC

My mom wouldn't let me join Brownies or Girlscouts. But my mom was also one of the very few women to get a BS in forestry in the 1980s, and doesn't cook, sew, wear makeup, wear heels, and knows how to refinish furniture, lay tile and run a tile saw, lay hardwood floor, hang sheetrock, build a fire, etc.

I don't come close to matching my mom as far as my proficiency at traditionally male tasks, but I'm glad I have a mom who is that way, it means I didn't really ever grasp the importance or influence of gender stereotypes as a kid. I just figured that different moms were into different things.
"A ship is safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."

User avatar
Chai Kovsky
Posts: 1652
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:36 pm UTC
Location: Californication

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Chai Kovsky » Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:12 pm UTC

It's so true, PictureSarah, that your immediate family influences your view on gender roles. My family was one of the few (if only) I knew where my mom worked full-time and my father stayed home with me. As a result, I feel little to no pressure to be the parent who works part time or stays at home while the father works full-time, just because I'm female.

My family employed the "whoever makes more money works" rule, and because my mother is a doctor, that worked out fine, but am I wrong in thinking pay inequality would typically justify the mother staying home anyway?
Spoiler:
kellsbells wrote:¡This Chai is burning me!
Chai Kovsky wrote:I can kill you with my brain.

That is all.
superglucose wrote:In other words: LISTEN TO CHAI.
Delayra wrote:Yet another brilliant idea from Chai!

I <3 Pirate.Bondage!

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Indon » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:26 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:I...while your assessment of this page is correct on a quantity level, as men get more adjectives and verbs, I disagree with this being something indicating an opressive patriarchy.
There appear to be more boys in the Big Brothers organization, but no excess of men. 1
They need more. So they're advertising for more. It's less 'women aren't as important' and more 'we sure do have a lot of lonely little boys'.

So the organization that is Big Brothers/Big Sisters is mostly Big Brothers, because they mostly help males, and that's not indicative of an oppressive patriarchy?

Chai - yeah, men tend to work in higher-paying professions than women.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3476
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:33 pm UTC

They may have many females, but more female adult volunteers. When I was active in it we have a group of maybe 5-7 girls and 3 boys because only 3 Big Brothers Signed up. (and one kept flaking on his kid...it was pretty sad actually).

What I notice more is the choice of verbs. Girls bake pies, boys are all sports and manly. Hopefully they are just trying to show people how 'easy' it is to be A big by using overly stereotypical things. Still, I never baked pies with my little.

(Also, I did girl scouts, but my mom was the leader. That's where I learned to change a tire when I was 9, and we learned knots and things because we went rock climbing and caving often enough that everyone needed to know how to make a harness and belay as needed. Having a good leader helps a lot. Also, finding good camps is key. I learned all sorts of water craft type stuff (sailing, canoeing with all the tricky parts like how a 80 pound girl should carry one by her self in case you need to cross a street, and water skiing) at camps. And of course how to make fires and live outside and things. Also, Girl Scouts is much more inclusive an organization (than the Boy Scouts) and welcome lesbians (if it did not, there are jokes about how it would run out of leaders fast ->like my mom).
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

User avatar
Chai Kovsky
Posts: 1652
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:36 pm UTC
Location: Californication

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Chai Kovsky » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:41 pm UTC

Indon wrote:
Meaux_Pas wrote:I...while your assessment of this page is correct on a quantity level, as men get more adjectives and verbs, I disagree with this being something indicating an opressive patriarchy.
There appear to be more boys in the Big Brothers organization, but no excess of men. 1
They need more. So they're advertising for more. It's less 'women aren't as important' and more 'we sure do have a lot of lonely little boys'.

So the organization that is Big Brothers/Big Sisters is mostly Big Brothers, because they mostly help males, and that's not indicative of an oppressive patriarchy?

Chai - yeah, men tend to work in higher-paying professions than women.

It could be that the Big Sister/Little Sister ratio is better—perhaps more Big Sisters have volunteered than have Big Brothers. Do we have the stats on total #Big Sisters/Little Sisters versus total #Big Brothers/Little Brothers?

As I understand it, Big Brothers/Big Sisters is a creature mostly of urban communities. As such, I could see why it would appeal to single mothers in the area looking to give their sons a male role model. That could explain why there are more Little Brothers around seeking Big Brothers. Given those same single mothers would be available to their daughters as a female role model, it makes sense that there would be a lesser need for Big Sisters.

My point with regard to pay is that the sort of "egalitarianism" displayed in "let whoever makes more money work while the other stays home" tends just to reaffirm the patriarchy anyway. Is why equalism=fail. And even then, I wouldn't be surprised if the professions men work in are higher-paid because men work in them.
Spoiler:
kellsbells wrote:¡This Chai is burning me!
Chai Kovsky wrote:I can kill you with my brain.

That is all.
superglucose wrote:In other words: LISTEN TO CHAI.
Delayra wrote:Yet another brilliant idea from Chai!

I <3 Pirate.Bondage!

User avatar
Yuri2356
Posts: 729
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:00 pm UTC

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Yuri2356 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:49 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:They are not simply feminism, but dealing with patriarchy. I am sorry you dislike some of them.
Lets think about it a little.
<snip for size>
Judging any part of me based on the stereotypes around it will not go over well.


My first attempt to reply to this got rather odd and unwieldy and led my thoughts down some scary paths, so I'll try to do this quicker -

When you posted that list, it kicked up some unpleasant things in my mind. It took "Fighting the Patriarchy", a concept that I've seen defined as something entirely just, valid, and worthy of supporting, and ended up associating it with an assortment of different terms which have caused me a lot mental pain. A good 3/4 of that list did a fine job of delivering its message and keeping my sympathies, but those particular entries brought up past harm to myself. (Well, not so much the vegetarian/environmental ones, those were just out of place. Seriously, would you say the man-ocracy is oppressing you with delicious-but-less-than-perfect bread? Sort of cheapens the real crimes.) I responded to it in a rather poorly-worded manner that failed to illustrate what I was thinking, and it offended you. I'm sorry for that. I've been on both sides of arguments like this, and they both have very good reasons for feeling the ways they do.

You posted a rather nice and sentimental thing that was part of your life and helped make you proud of who you are, and then I start criticizing parts of it and starting complaining about the tangentially related arch-nemeses who harass my existence in ways that sound like I'm attacking you. Sorry about that.

I was going to write in something where I re-assert what offended me and try to do a better job of explaining it, but I can't seem to phrase it very well right now so I'll let it drop for a while. It's sort of elaborate and involves some things that go well outsided the premise of this thread.

But I will put out here that the defense you're mounting right now tends to end with calling someone 'bitchy' or 'oversensitive.' Justifying yourself to me will not undo what others have done, and it sure as fuck won't absolve them of it.

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3476
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sophyturtle » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:05 pm UTC

Perhaps I read your previous post wrong, as I did get defensive (though my defensiveness tends to lead me more to saying things like insensitive, not oversensitive in my counterpart). I felt like you were de-valuing what I said due to my hippy-like nature, sort of writing those off without really reading them and with it writing me off as being not serious or anti-science. That one stung because being a scientist is a big part of my identity (much more so than being a hippy, which others seem to see me as more than I see myself that way).
I am sorry you have such strong feelings of pain or offense from this, but please know there are nice hippies/nature worshipers out there who not only respect science but live it (part of me thinks any hippy who would harass you in the first place is not truly a hippy, but tangents often not helpful). There are things I dislike from this list too, but it is mostly wording and I don't know how much I can expect from a 17+ year old poster (I dislike saying disabled woman instead of woman with a disability, because the woman is the important part and the not the disability. it is something whose fashion has changed since this was printed).
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

User avatar
Chai Kovsky
Posts: 1652
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:36 pm UTC
Location: Californication

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Chai Kovsky » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:16 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:There are things I dislike from this list too, but it is mostly wording and I don't know how much I can expect from a 17+ year old poster (I dislike saying disabled woman instead of woman with a disability, because the woman is the important part and the not the disability. it is something whose fashion has changed since this was printed).

If we are now discussing things on that list seriously (and I think the list is a great topic-starter and should be discussed), the people-with-disabilities vs. disabled-people thing is still seriously under contention in the disability activist community. While some agree with your point, sophy, others feel that it's akin to saying "people with blackness" and thus avoid it. Still others avoid it on stylistic principle: "disabled people" is shorter. On the other hand, this:
Stop using terms that describe disability to mean lacking or bad such as blind, crippled, crazy, lame, deaf, sick, near sighted.
is mixed between "absolutely fucking right, preach, my sister" and dead wrong. Crippled, crazy, and lame are all unacceptable terms to describe disabled people, but blind and deaf are universal terms and the Deaf community would probably take your head off if you used anything else.

I was curious about this, though:
Limit the number of your descendants.
Is that considered a good thing? Is it a feminist thing? My first reaction was "I'll have a passle of kids if that's what makes me happy!" but I'm curious to know what people think the rationale behind that particular suggestion is.
Spoiler:
kellsbells wrote:¡This Chai is burning me!
Chai Kovsky wrote:I can kill you with my brain.

That is all.
superglucose wrote:In other words: LISTEN TO CHAI.
Delayra wrote:Yet another brilliant idea from Chai!

I <3 Pirate.Bondage!

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Quixotess » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:20 pm UTC

On a totally random note, I was just watching the West Wing and was treated to this bit of dialogue. (CJ spilled paint on her pants and is now walking around with a bathrobe wrapped around her waist.)

Sam: Where'd you get that bathrobe?
CJ: The gym.
Sam: The gym has bathrobes?
CJ: The women's locker room does.
Sam: But not the men's?
CJ: Yeah...
Sam: That's outrageous. There are a thousand men working here and fifteen women.
CJ: Yeah. And it's the bathrobes that are outrageous.

Hee!

Chai Kovsky wrote:My point with regard to pay is that the sort of "egalitarianism" displayed in "let whoever makes more money work while the other stays home" tends just to reaffirm the patriarchy anyway. Is why equalism=fail. And even then, I wouldn't be surprised if the professions men work in are higher-paid because men work in them.

I don't know enough about this to be able to back it up with anything, but I've heard that's true. I've read that as soon as women became a significant proportion of GPs the pay went way down and men started fleeing into specialties such as plastic surgery.

Yuri2356 wrote:But I will put out here that the defense you're mounting right now tends to end with calling someone 'bitchy' or 'oversensitive.'

Feminists don't use those words.* You're safe with sophy.


*Generalization police!
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
Chai Kovsky
Posts: 1652
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:36 pm UTC
Location: Californication

Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Chai Kovsky » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:38 pm UTC

Quixotess wrote:
Chai Kovsky wrote:My point with regard to pay is that the sort of "egalitarianism" displayed in "let whoever makes more money work while the other stays home" tends just to reaffirm the patriarchy anyway. Is why equalism=fail. And even then, I wouldn't be surprised if the professions men work in are higher-paid because men work in them.

I don't know enough about this to be able to back it up with anything, but I've heard that's true. I've read that as soon as women became a significant proportion of GPs the pay went way down and men started fleeing into specialties such as plastic surgery.

*has seen hard dataz* It's for real. It goes both ways: if a job becomes mostly men from previously equal, the pay goes up. If women enter a male-dominated profession, the pay goes down.

I'm not sure whether GPs going into plastics is a perfect example, since much of compensation for doctors right now is based on procedure, so procedurally-heavy fields get more pay than mostly diagnostic ones like endocrine. Pediatrics, though, is a good example of a specialty that, in subspecialty, has a fair number of procedures and yet, because it's female-dominated, still has crappy pay.

The worst sexism is in choosing the specialty in the first place: women are discouraged from going into procedural specialties and there are a disproportionate number of women in the low-paying diagnostic specialties. There is not nor has there ever been any reason that women would be worse at surgery than men, and yet I have met only one female surgeon at my hospital. Women get shunted into diagnostic specialties because they're supposedly "lower stress" and more compatible with raising families. Somehow, though, I suspect that any medical specialty could be made "family friendly" (as if it were only the woman's job to raise the family anyway!) and it is just the culture of the specialty that precludes flexible scheduling.

GI is one of the mostly-male procedural specialties. The Gastrointestinal/Liver department at the medical school where I worked actively recruits women and a professor in that department has started a women's group to discuss issues related to succeeding in medicine as a woman. I'm incredibly proud of my department :D
Spoiler:
kellsbells wrote:¡This Chai is burning me!
Chai Kovsky wrote:I can kill you with my brain.

That is all.
superglucose wrote:In other words: LISTEN TO CHAI.
Delayra wrote:Yet another brilliant idea from Chai!

I <3 Pirate.Bondage!


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 32 guests