xkcdia

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

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LE4dGOLEM
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xkcdia

Postby LE4dGOLEM » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:39 pm UTC

EDIT: Merged with a thread a year younger than it. Let's roll.

what?
A nation independant of all others

why?
Because it would be good, useful, and interesting. (And also as a defendible base from raptors)

who?
Populace: existing xkcdians and anyone else
Leader (if any): xkcd, davean, and the mod team (in that order of likeliness/power)

where?

Somewhere in international waters
Image
Probably either in the Atlantic somewhere or off Japan.

how?

how: Some kind of very large floating mass (eg Polysterene underneath rock, or a hollow underneath); Some Kind of Supported structure (eg rock all the way down); Hijack an existing, uninhabited island

Power/Energy: Solar, Wind, and wave. Electrolysis-ing hydrogen fuel out of saltwater will also be useful, and the waste product (Water) can thereafter be either electrolysed again or returned to the sea. Maybe with some nuclear as well, at a push.

Economy: A New currency. The economy will have to be based mostly on export/import - As xkcdia will have (obviously) enough knowledge to be taken seriously academically, Schools, Colleges, and Universities will be existant. Depending on locale, there will be a large amrket for luxury hotels (which can obviously be horribly overpriced or magnificently cheap, depending on need). Food can be grown in the form of Plants and animals, fish can harvested and/or farmed, and foods we cannot make ourselves can be imported. We could make some way of selling stored power to other countries as another export. Food we can grow could be exported as well.

Politics: As a new nation, we should automatically be on neutral grounds with all other nations, and so would not have to spend money on wars, etc. We could charge countries for parking in airports, seaports, etc.

Spending: Nothing (or at least, very little) will have to be spent on any military (see above). Importing fuels will not be an issue (see above). Policing shoudln't be an issue.


So. Good idea? Bad Idea? Sustainable? Not? Either way, this idea needs expanding, and so I come you to, Serious Business.
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EstLladon
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Postby EstLladon » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:45 pm UTC

I like the idea. All existing countries and goverments are often driven by some very strange ambitions and really do not care about me (umm... their people) as much as they can.

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Postby evilbeanfiend » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:46 pm UTC

found atlantis, i like it. this may be useful research material
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 3-6153208/

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jestingrabbit
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Postby jestingrabbit » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:57 pm UTC

reminds me of sealand. Contingency planning should concern itself with every problem that they have faced (specifically the armed raid).

And now for a walk in the black forrest...

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Postby space_raptor » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:37 pm UTC

Well, I for one would prefer not to bow down to our new moderator overlords. Maybe xkcd could be a symbolic monarch with no real power, but otherwise I'm not sure being an forum moderator enables you to run a country. Not that I don't have the utmost respect for the mods, though. I'm just a small government type of guy.

I also don't think being neutral means we don't have to have a military. I think that's asking for trouble.

Maybe we could have some sort of pseudo-anarchy which only works because everybody voluntarily works together for common goals. We could all be trained in martial arts, so if we were attacked, we could all fight and we wouldn't need a standing army. Or we could have robotic raptors defending the borders.

We could make some way of selling stored power to other countries as another export.

Stored power, eh? That idea alone could keep the economy going for a pretty long time.

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Postby LE4dGOLEM » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:49 pm UTC

space_raptor wrote:
We could make some way of selling stored power to other countries as another export.

Stored power, eh? That idea alone could keep the economy going for a pretty long time.



Some kind of... physical... sunlight...power?
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Postby space_raptor » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:10 pm UTC

LE4dGOLEM wrote:Some kind of... physical... sunlight...power?


You're going to store sunlight?
The drinking will continue until morale improves.

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Postby LE4dGOLEM » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:17 pm UTC

space_raptor wrote:
LE4dGOLEM wrote:Some kind of... physical... sunlight...power?


You're going to store sunlight?



Sure! I mean, batteries store electrical power, right? We just need to find the right chemicals... right?
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Postby Roffle » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:36 pm UTC

LE4dGOLEM wrote:
space_raptor wrote:
LE4dGOLEM wrote:Some kind of... physical... sunlight...power?


You're going to store sunlight?



Sure! I mean, batteries store electrical power, right? We just need to find the right chemicals... right?


Yeah, um... What kinds of chemicals would that be?

Tell you what, if you invented something that was 100 times as efficient as the most efficient method for storing power today, at ten times less the cost, then I'd give it a shot. But of course, if you had that kind of technology, we might as well just build a flying city instead, and pretty much never have to worry about terrory (Well, that's not exactly true, but it would be less of a problem). It would be a lot safer from raptors. Like the cities of the Netherese empire... Oh, wait, that didn't go so well...

But I would like to have a direct democracy instead of mod dictatorship. As long as raptors can't vote. They are too smart, they can't be trusted.

http://www.clipjunkie.com/The-Critic--- ... id847.html

Are you sure this belongs in Serious Business?
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Postby Belial » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:39 pm UTC

Like the cities of the Netherese empire... Oh, wait, that didn't go so well...



We'd be sure not to attempt to usurp any gods. Always learn from your mistakes.
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They/them

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Postby jestingrabbit » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:41 pm UTC

There's a bit in the "hitch hikers guid to the galaxy" 'trilogy' (forget which book) where there's a flying city that's a travelling party. I'd be into that...

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Postby Roffle » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:42 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Like the cities of the Netherese empire... Oh, wait, that didn't go so well...



We'd be sure not to attempt to usurp any gods. Always learn from your mistakes.


Pfft... Mystra had it coming.

Effin' tease.
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Postby LE4dGOLEM » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:49 pm UTC

Roffle wrote:Are you sure this belongs in Serious Business?


Yes. It was intended to be a serious discussion. But then you all got hooked on how you can't store photons or whatever.
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Postby Belial » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:49 pm UTC

roffle wrote:Pfft... Mystra had it coming.


Be that as it may, we've wandered off topic.

space_raptor wrote:Well, I for one would prefer not to bow down to our new moderator overlords. Maybe xkcd could be a symbolic monarch with no real power, but otherwise I'm not sure being an forum moderator enables you to run a country. Not that I don't have the utmost respect for the mods, though. I'm just a small government type of guy.


Ideally, we wouldn't need a *government* government, so much as a group of people to settle disputes. Kindof like a tribal leader. Except probably more than one of them.
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They/them

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Postby jestingrabbit » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:50 pm UTC

Hang on, why does the travelling city need to fly? Why not a boat? There was an aircraft carrier for sale a while back. You could make a pretty nifty travelling part with an aircraft carrier, or is this idea now like a gigantic ocean liner? You could play giant shuffleboard...

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Postby LE4dGOLEM » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:53 pm UTC

The original idea was to steal a giant lump of rock from somewhere and set that floating about, IIRC
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Postby OmenPigeon » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:56 pm UTC

Seasteading

I just found this, but they seem to have put some thought into it. Theres at least one master's thesis which gives some credence to the possibility. Specifically, it recommends forming a corporation and then "forming a loose political-economic association with a land-locked African state". According to the paper such an island would have the best shot at working if it wasn't just sovereign for the sake of being sovereign, but worked at utilizing the resource potential of the area it encompassed in a humanitarian fashion, especially with regard to the southern hemisphere. Maybe we should find a few lawyers, geologists and marine biologists?
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Postby jestingrabbit » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:15 pm UTC

I reckon you could pick up a discarded oil rig for not too much (a seven figure sum, rather than an eight figure sum) if you got the timing right. Its going to be pretty pricey to keep it provisioned though... And moving that around is going to be cost prohibitive... You could definately make money by undertaking piracy(the usual kind, not the 'arr me heartey's' kind)/data-haven type activities. You'd want to use aquaculture to get most of your food... hmmm... this feels more and more doable everytime I think about it...

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Postby Roffle » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:47 pm UTC

Oil rigs are very unstable in poor weather conditions. And I would need to feel grass under my feet during the summertime. Besides, oil rigs smell bad.
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Postby jestingrabbit » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:01 pm UTC

I think the stink would mostly be from stuff you'd want to throw away, like all the plant except a crane. You'd definitely want garden space, which means shipping in soil. How stable would a few oil rigs lashed together be?

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Postby 3.14159265... » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:50 pm UTC

Whats wrong with moving to like sweden, I think they are already what you are aiming for, except bigger, already existing, and not near japan.

Though this was my dream, to make a society of nice shit, with like science as the aim, and sex as the favorate pastime.

Also would you allow kids in here?

You know what I just thougth of?

Why don't we make like an MIT on an Island, where like serious scientists can spend a year or 2 or w.e. of their life, INTENESLY reasearching without outside contact.
This of course, cuz not everyone gets into the Princeton thing.
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Postby Belial » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:54 pm UTC

Also would you allow kids in here?


Only as hors d'oevres
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Postby bbctol » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:05 pm UTC

Sounds like Sealand, so we could sell land off to a data haven, if our laws allowed it
What would be easier would be starting an online nation, like Talossa. Just write up a constitution and go!

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Postby Jesse » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:12 pm UTC

I hope other people here are seriously considering it, because I would honest-to-deity/dawkins do it. Not sure what I could bring economically to the island, I don't have much job experience and I'm at most a decent writer, if not slightly worse. Although I do have a tendency to be a good mediator so maybe some form of ombudsman?

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Postby 3.14159265... » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:48 pm UTC

Seriously imagine, a country whose export, is knoweledge.
The are trying to kinda do this with Israel, where the exports are weapons knoweledge, kinda.
But imagine. And discoveries arn't shared, so if this country had discovered nuclear energy, and then didn't show it to others. IMAGINE!

As for defending it, in case of a war or sumting, I am sure within like 20 years of particle physics research, they could come up with a subatomic bomb or the like, (not scientifically thought out). Then you could be like, COME BITCHES!

Edit: Also, if this we start charging money for our universities, for every rich kid, there should be one poor kid admmitted for free. And the rich ones have to be smart too. :D i.e. no private schools
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Postby VannA » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:34 pm UTC

I'll come back to this.

But I would be in on it.

The biggest issue is initial expense.. and I've a few things to say about governmental make up, as well. (Co-op company)

Power generation.. if this is a floating city, power is easy, but expensive to set up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect#Thermopower

You construct P-S cables from a few metres above the surface to as far down as possible.

The temperature differential will produce a useable current.

Combined with wind, this should generate enough power.. although it would definately have to be a *lot* more efficient than most peoples households.

In terms of socia/economic constructs, it has been my experience, and to the extant I've found published articles, others experience, that co-op works best.

You own and work at a particular role.. I think I'm too tired to adequately explain all this now.

Oh, in terms of currency?

The Kilojoule is your unit of currency.
I'd be open to discussion on the ramifications of that, actually.
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Postby German Sausage » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:43 am UTC

ok, we have had a few other discussions in this vein...two of which i was involved in, and i can't be arsed finding the third, but
XKCD Island and treehouses both of which got off-topic like crazy doom.

i do like the idea, but it would need to be very open, and we would need to bring folk. also it would need to be close enough to land so as to make return trips to family etc practical. lke if we can all get to an international airport easily, then home from there. because while i like some of you a lot, we do need to see other people. and we can't all go out with aisling and rachel.
actually, the boy:girl ratio issues would be pretty serious, even though there have been a lot more girls about recently.
sweden is a feasible option. we just have to build a compound, and pretend to be a cult.
thats right, pretend to be a cult. no mass suicide here. move along, nothing to see.

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Postby Swordfish » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:06 am UTC

Just a few ideas here. If we want an island, it would be ideal to keep it inside of ten degrees of the equator. In that area, it any hurricane can not form/survive very well. Also in the Atlantic ocean we'd be avoiding most significant threats of tsunamis.

As for governments: relativly speaking, I think we'd have a small enough population so that a true democracy would actually work.
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Postby wisnij » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:16 am UTC

The first chapter of The Millennial Project is a fun read for more ideas about constructing floating cities. Its premise is similar on a number of points: build in international waters near the equator, use thermal differences between surface and deep water for energy, aquaculture for food, and a largely information-based economy.
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Postby Roffle » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:14 pm UTC

Hmm... This is actually starting to sound plausible.

Hey, know what? I'd deal with all the legalities, as soon as I get edumacated proper, I'm currently in law school... Or are lawyers prohibited? I would advise against that, I'd sue.
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Postby LE4dGOLEM » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:35 pm UTC

Roffle wrote:Hmm... This is actually starting to sound plausible.

Hey, know what? I'd deal with all the legalities, as soon as I get edumacated proper, I'm currently in law school... Or are lawyers prohibited? I would advise against that, I'd sue.


You can't sue in a system where filing lawsuits against he government for exclusion to a country is illegal!
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Postby gmalivuk » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:21 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:Seriously imagine, a country whose export, is knoweledge.
The are trying to kinda do this with Israel, where the exports are weapons knoweledge, kinda.
But imagine. And discoveries arn't shared, so if this country had discovered nuclear energy, and then didn't show it to others. IMAGINE!

As for defending it, in case of a war or sumting, I am sure within like 20 years of particle physics research, they could come up with a subatomic bomb or the like, (not scientifically thought out). Then you could be like, COME BITCHES!

Edit: Also, if this we start charging money for our universities, for every rich kid, there should be one poor kid admmitted for free. And the rich ones have to be smart too. :D i.e. no private schools


Does this sound a bit like the Foundation to anyone else? (That is of course not a judgement one way or the other. Just a thought that struck me.)

Do you think Kiwis would be mad if we called it New Sealand?

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Postby umbrae » Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:04 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Also would you allow kids in here?


Only as hors d'oevres


Silly Belial, sovereign aquatic nations are for humans!

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Postby German Sausage » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:23 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Do you think Kiwis would be mad if we called it New Sealand?

do you think we would care? its a bloody good name for an island/ship

seriously i think that while XKCD Island is a good name, xkcdia is better. mostly because it will be harder to pronounce.
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Postby Belial » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:53 pm UTC

umbrae wrote:
Belial wrote:
Also would you allow kids in here?


Only as hors d'oevres


Silly Belial, sovereign aquatic nations are for humans!


Speaking as a human.....Only as hors d'oevres

::still doesn't like children::
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They/them

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Postby evilbeanfiend » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:03 pm UTC

i don't like kids either, but i wouldn't eat one, they are so unhygienic

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Postby Belial » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:14 pm UTC

That's why you cook them first.
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They/them

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Postby umbrae » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:02 pm UTC

Belial wrote:That's why you cook them first.


Now that's some Serious Business right there.

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Postby Belial » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:09 pm UTC

Point taken. Kid-eating discussion over. Back to our floating nation.
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They/them

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Postby VannA » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:35 am UTC

So.. Where are we at? What problems would need to be overcome?

Fiscal - Setup costs? Exports?

Survival - Power? Water? Food?

Social - Laws? Government? Communication?
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