What's the average IQ of an atheist?

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Syntax » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:31 pm UTC

As for the original topic....


According to my calculations the probability of any given atheist having a higher IQ than a person of dogmatic persuasion is about .59. So around 60%; which, while statistically relevant, isn't a very relevant number at all. For instance if you were interviewing two people for a job, it wouldn't make much sense at all to choose one over the other based on their belief(or lack thereof) on any deity unless they were VERY close to being indistinguishable in skills otherwise.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby RealGrouchy » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:54 pm UTC

Syntax wrote:For instance if you were interviewing two people for a job, it wouldn't make much sense at all to choose one over the other based on their belief(or lack thereof) on any deity unless they were VERY close to being indistinguishable in skills otherwise.
In that case, you don't really need statistics to tell you the probability that one is smarter than the other; you've determined for yourself they are of equal capability.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Syntax » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:37 pm UTC

RealGrouchy wrote:
Syntax wrote:For instance if you were interviewing two people for a job, it wouldn't make much sense at all to choose one over the other based on their belief(or lack thereof) on any deity unless they were VERY close to being indistinguishable in skills otherwise.
In that case, you don't really need statistics to tell you the probability that one is smarter than the other; you've determined for yourself they are of equal capability.

- RG>



I suppose, if you presume to think a resume and short interview are completely representative of an individual. I tend to think of them as the tip of an iceberg, as far as job applicants go. If two people handed me identical resumes and I had to pick one to interview I'd choose the atheist, myself.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby apeman5291 » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:40 pm UTC

Syntax wrote:If two people handed me identical resumes and I had to pick one to interview I'd choose the atheist, myself.


I'd probably just flip a coin.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Cheese » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:46 pm UTC

I'd ask why the fuck they were handing me the resumes.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Syntax » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:47 pm UTC

apeman5291 wrote:
Syntax wrote:If two people handed me identical resumes and I had to pick one to interview I'd choose the atheist, myself.


I'd probably just flip a coin.


By doing so you could inadvertently trigger a religious war in the future, as per the Butterfly Effect. Do you really want to temp chaos theory and become responsible for inordinate amounts of suffering and the deaths of tens of thousands of people? Yeah, didn't think so.



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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Aikanaro » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:04 am UTC

Trusting coin flips has also won me quite a few games of Three Dragon Ante. Obviously you just mistreated your coins and now they want revenge.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby RealGrouchy » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:00 am UTC

Syntax wrote:If two people handed me identical resumes and I had to pick one to interview I'd choose the atheist, myself.
So... you're saying you'd discriminate on the basis of religion? Fun.

My (very vaguely implied) point was that if you got to know someone enough to know their religious beliefs (because that's a no-no question in job interviews), you'd probably have a decent judge of their intelligence. Or, if you are doing a very thorough screening of job candidates, you would have them perform tests of some form that would allow you to compare their ability.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby aleflamedyud » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:40 am UTC

apeman5291 wrote:
Syntax wrote:If two people handed me identical resumes and I had to pick one to interview I'd choose the atheist, myself.


I'd probably just flip a coin.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:57 pm UTC

Syntax wrote:I suppose, if you presume to think a resume and short interview are completely representative of an individual. I tend to think of them as the tip of an iceberg, as far as job applicants go. If two people handed me identical resumes and I had to pick one to interview I'd choose the atheist, myself.
And in the US that would get you sued. And so would the opposite.

And having "Religion" as a field on your application would also get you sued. If, for whatever reason, both applicants decided to put their religious affiliation on the resumes they handed in, you'd be far better throwing both of those the fuck out and finding the one where it's not mentioned, as I'll be money anyone who puts down on a goddamn resume that they are an atheist or a presbyterian or whatever is going to annoy the fucking hell out of everyone else at the office.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby sje46 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:01 pm UTC

I suppose, if you presume to think a resume and short interview are completely representative of an individual. I tend to think of them as the tip of an iceberg, as far as job applicants go. If two people handed me identical resumes and I had to pick one to interview I'd choose the atheist, myself.

Blcak people, on average, score lower on IQ tests. So if a black man and a white man handed you identical resumes, you would pick the white one, right? Because the probabilty is that the black one is dumber?
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby negatron » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:07 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Syntax wrote:If two people handed me identical resumes and I had to pick one to interview I'd choose the atheist, myself.
And in the US that would get you sued. And so would the opposite.

No it wouldn't. Applicant selection on prejudice or just plain characteristic preferences is the norm rather than the exception. It may very well get you sued if you make the factors of your decision an official record, but if you're that stupid your business won't last long in any case.

sje46 wrote:Blcak people, on average, score lower on IQ tests. So if a black man and a white man handed you identical resumes, you would pick the white one, right? Because the probabilty is that the black one is dumber?

All other things being equal, I would likely use probability to reduce the applicants to the most statistically favorable. This may very well include things like race, sex, age. Such an evaluation would likely rarely be put into practice, explicit qualifications are far more revealing, but it is potentially beneficial. I know some companies with a high number of applications use keyword filters on the resume to give it a weighting before it's even examined by a person. Some may very well take it a step further.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Syntax » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:57 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:
I suppose, if you presume to think a resume and short interview are completely representative of an individual. I tend to think of them as the tip of an iceberg, as far as job applicants go. If two people handed me identical resumes and I had to pick one to interview I'd choose the atheist, myself.

Blcak people, on average, score lower on IQ tests. So if a black man and a white man handed you identical resumes, you would pick the white one, right? Because the probabilty is that the black one is dumber?



Probably not, since that tends to be a hot-button topic these days(black/white relations etc.) and would increase the likelihood of a law-suit. But if an asian or ashkenazi jew handed me a resume identical to that of a caucasian I'd choose one of the first two..


This is, of course, just a thought experiment. In reality I'd do everything in my power to get to know each of the candidates to the best of my ability with complete disregard of race or religion; it just makes more sense to evaluate everyone for who they are and not take short-cuts. The benefit of asking more questions and ignoring the above-mentioned factors outweighs the costs.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby apeman5291 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:12 pm UTC

You're forgetting that if two people have identical qualifications, and look equally good on a resume, both perform equally well in an interview, and otherwise continue to have equal potential, then there really is no better choice. (Hence the coin flip.) Like it was said earlier, why does it matter if someone belongs to a group that statistically is smarter/dumber than another group? All that matters is them individually. If you have looked very far into the matter and there is still no clear advantage, why would chosing the one who belongs to more smart groups matter at all? To clarify further: before you meet someone there is an x% chance of them being exceptionally smart. Then, from the information provided to you on a resume, you are now 100% sure that they are exceptionally smart. Why does it matter anymore that there was that original x% chance?
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:13 pm UTC

negatron wrote:No it wouldn't. Applicant selection on prejudice or just plain characteristic preferences is the norm rather than the exception. It may very well get you sued if you make the factors of your decision an official record, but if you're that stupid your business won't last long in any case.
All you have to do is prove in court that the reason you were not selected was religious. Sometimes that is difficult, sometimes not. It's not usually pursued. Especially as the person not selected usually isn't wanting to make a point, they just want a job.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Syntax » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:16 pm UTC

apeman5291 wrote:You're forgetting that if two people have identical qualifications, and look equally good on a resume, both perform equally well in an interview, and otherwise continue to have equal potential, then there really is no better choice. (Hence the coin flip.) Like it was said earlier, why does it matter if someone belongs to a group that statistically is smarter/dumber than another group? All that matters is them individually. If you have looked very far into the matter and there is still no clear advantage, why would chosing the one who belongs to more smart groups matter at all? To clarify further: before you meet someone there is an x% chance of them being exceptionally smart. Then, from the information provided to you on a resume, you are now 100% sure that they are exceptionally smart. Why does it matter anymore that there was that original x% chance?



Again, it's just a thought experiment; one which presumes that there will be a great deal that remains unknown(specifically, intelligence) about the person applying for a given job.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby podbaydoor » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:52 pm UTC

All I have to say (based on an argument on page 3) is:

The word you're looking for is "tenet," not "tenant."
TENET.
T-E-N-E-T.

And the rest has devolved into people trying to prove that their group isn't dumb, as per SecondTalon's point on the first page, with some detours into assholes making fun of the other side. Can we not just take a step back and realize that there are dumb people and smart people everywhere?
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby fishyfish777 » Thu Dec 25, 2008 2:58 am UTC

I'd personally choose the atheist myself because he/she can work on Sundays.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby benjhuey » Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:30 pm UTC

fishyfish777 wrote:I'd personally choose the atheist myself because he/she can work on Sundays.
But will he/she even want to work on a day commonly given off to everyone (assuming normal a "business suit" style of employment)?
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby enderx » Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:50 pm UTC

As a protestant who has many friends who are atheist, and based on my observations, atheists are generally smarter simply because most non - smart people don't think about deep philosophical matters. Among my friends, 2 are atheist, 2 used to be atheist and then converted, one to Christianity, one to Judaism, 1 has always been Jewish, and another has always been Sikh. While the atheist do seem to get good grades, their social intelligence and ability to think outside of the box is limited. It seems more to me that going atheist is more of a "cool" trend among smart people.

Sorry if some of that didn't follow logically, I will edit it when I am less tired.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:45 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:And the rest has devolved into people trying to prove that their group isn't dumb, as per SecondTalon's point on the first page, with some detours into assholes making fun of the other side. Can we not just take a step back and realize that there are dumb people and smart people everywhere?


..

Oh yeah?

Well fuck your theory!



..that wasn't the right argument, was it?

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby 0xBADFEED » Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:44 am UTC

I cannot possibly put into words how hilarious I find the notion of an atheist believing in "IQ".

It would mean there is some person walking around that holds both of the following in their head at the same time without having it asplode.

1) "I think believing in an invisible sky-daddy that will spank you in the afterlife if you are bad is silly, contrary to logic, and does not meet my stringent requirements for things that I will call true."

2) "I think it's totally plausible that the entire cognitive abilities of a person can be adequately guaged by a 1-2 hour test within a reasonable margin of error and that the result can be succinctly expressed as a single number."

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby sje46 » Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:22 pm UTC

0xBADFEED wrote:I cannot possibly put into words how hilarious I find the notion of an atheist believing in "IQ".

It would mean there is some person walking around that holds both of the following in their head at the same time without having it asplode.

1) "I think believing in an invisible sky-daddy that will spank you in the afterlife if you are bad is silly, contrary to logic, and does not meet my stringent requirements for things that I will call true."

2) "I think it's totally plausible that the entire cognitive abilities of a person can be adequately guaged by a 1-2 hour test within a reasonable margin of error and that the result can be succinctly expressed as a single number."

I fail to see the contradiction.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Yuri2356 » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:44 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:
0xBADFEED wrote:I cannot possibly put into words how hilarious I find the notion of an atheist believing in "IQ".

It would mean there is some person walking around that holds both of the following in their head at the same time without having it asplode.

1) "I think believing in an invisible sky-daddy that will spank you in the afterlife if you are bad is silly, contrary to logic, and does not meet my stringent requirements for things that I will call true."

2) "I think it's totally plausible that the entire cognitive abilities of a person can be adequately guaged by a 1-2 hour test within a reasonable margin of error and that the result can be succinctly expressed as a single number."

I fail to see the contradiction.

Quantifiable and easily measured intelligence is evidence of god. Duh.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby 0xBADFEED » Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:53 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:I fail to see the contradiction.


The whole notion of "IQ" as it applies to people of average and above intelligence is bunk. The concept and its application stinks to high-heaven and anyone with a healthy bullshit-detector will approach it with appropriate skepticism.

I find it hilarious because the person is willing to treat philosophical questions with skepticism, but IQ, something that is actually verifiable, has been tested, and has been shown to be a worthless metric, they are prepared to accept at face value with no skepticism at all.

They have no idea how to apply skepticism and basically have a broken thought process. The contradiction isn't directly between the statements but rather inherent in the thought-process that was used to arrive at the conclusions.

Yuri2356 wrote:Quantifiable and easily measured intelligence is evidence of god. Duh.

Definitely not this.
Last edited by 0xBADFEED on Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:02 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby sje46 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:00 am UTC

0xBADFEED wrote:
sje46 wrote:I fail to see the contradiction.


The whole notion of "IQ" as it applies to people of average and above intelligence is bunk. The concept and its application stinks to high-heaven and anyone with a healthy bullshit-detector will approach it with appropriate skepticism.

I find it hilarious because the person is willing to treat philosophical questions with skepticism, but IQ, something that is actually verifiable, has been tested, and has been shown to be a worthless metric, they are prepared to accept at face value with no skepticism at all.

They have no idea how to apply skepticism and basically have a broken thought process. The contradiction isn't directly between the statements but rather inherent in the thought-process that was used to arrive at the conclusions.

Yuri2356 wrote:Quantifiable and easily measured intelligence is evidence of god. Duh.


Definitely not this.

Would you source where IQ has been proven a worthless metric?
And it doesn't matter if the atheist believes in IQ or not. I don't see why it would matter if an atheists believes IQ is a worthful metric or not.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby 0xBADFEED » Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:22 am UTC

sje46 wrote:Would you source where IQ has been proven a worthless metric


Just look at the Wikipedia page for "IQ" and pick anything from the section that has to do with criticisms.

The "challenge for citation" tactic is lame when it's a subject that has an abundance of material and smacks of laziness.

I never said it was "proven" worthless just shown to be worthless at predicting many of the things you would expect an IQ to predict.

I'm not saying intelligence isn't quantifiable (no one knows) or comparable, just that the "Intelligence Quotient" version of it is laughably simplistic and has been shown to be of little use. More refined models exist and the whole idea of IQ is mostly a leftover from the 50's.

An IQ only measures your ability to take an IQ test not general cognitive ability.

I was just stating an aside anyway.

Sorry if I struck a nerve. Are you an atheist that believes in IQ?

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby sje46 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:08 am UTC

0xBADFEED wrote:
sje46 wrote:Would you source where IQ has been proven a worthless metric


Just look at the Wikipedia page for "IQ" and pick anything from the section that has to do with criticisms.

The "challenge for citation" tactic is lame when it's a subject that has an abundance of material and smacks of laziness.
So is ignoring other people's requests.
Also, this?
The task force concluded that IQ scores do have high predictive validity for individual differences in school achievement. They confirm the predictive validity of IQ for adult occupational status, even when variables such as education and family background have been statistically controlled. They agree that individual differences in intelligence are substantially influenced by genetics and that both genes and environment, in complex interplay, are essential to the development of intellectual competence.

The OP asked if atheists have a higher IQ, not intelligence. It is irrelevant whether atheists have a higher IQ or not. What matters is if they have this thing that the IQ measuers, this thing that seems like intelligence but may not be.
[/quote]
I never said it was "proven" worthless just shown to be worthless at predicting many of the things you would expect an IQ to predict.

Like intelligence? If it is shown to be worthless to measure intelligence, then you have proven it is worhtless in measuring intelligence.
It is a somewhat reliable measure for how well a person will do at life.
I'm not saying intelligence isn't quantifiable (no one knows)

Everyything is quantifiable, I believe, if everyone agrees on the definition.
or comparable, just that the "Intelligence Quotient" version of it is laughably simplistic and has been shown to be of little use. More refined models exist and the whole idea of IQ is mostly a leftover from the 50's.

An IQ only measures your ability to take an IQ test not general cognitive ability.

Okay. That may be so; I don't know. I do know that you aren't really explaining yourself.
I was just stating an aside anyway.

So?
Sorry if I struck a nerve. Are you an atheist that believes in IQ?

You didn't strike a nerve at all. You just seem a little too passionate on the subject. I still don't see how relevant it is if an atheist believe that IQ is a worthy metric. What we want to know is if atheists have a higher IQ or not, not if they believe in it. It sounds like you just came on, inferring that the OP is an atheist who believes that IQ means intelligence, and pointing out the contradiction here, even though the contradiction is irrelevant to the topic.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby RealGrouchy » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:02 am UTC

sje46 wrote:
0xBADFEED wrote:The "challenge for citation" tactic is lame when it's a subject that has an abundance of material and smacks of laziness.
So is ignoring other people's requests.
This will be the end of this sniping. sje46, If you don't see it as relevant, then stop badgering the other guy about it.

Back to the discussion...

0xBADFEED wrote:I find it hilarious because the person is willing to treat philosophical questions with skepticism, but IQ, something that is actually verifiable, has been tested, and has been shown to be a worthless metric, they are prepared to accept at face value with no skepticism at all.

They have no idea how to apply skepticism and basically have a broken thought process. The contradiction isn't directly between the statements but rather inherent in the thought-process that was used to arrive at the conclusions.
You seem to equate skepticism with Atheism. Or more specifically, you assume (in the first clause of the first sentence) that someone is Atheist because they arrived at a logical conclusion through skepticism--presumably, skepticism of God.

This assumption is premature; had the concept of God not been invented and made pervasive in society, the Atheist would have no reason to be skeptical of it. See Russell's teapot, for example.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Kag » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:39 am UTC

sje46 wrote: It sounds like you just came on, inferring that the OP is an atheist who believes that IQ means intelligence
B|
syntax wrote:reason is, I wanted to show a friend of mine that the probability(using real math) of any given atheist being smarter than a given christian is only slightly higher than .5 and thusly almost negligible for all intents and purposes. according to wikipedia the average IQ is about 5 points higher for atheists, but the actual numbers aren't given. Any help is greatly appreciated!
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby sje46 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 4:38 pm UTC

Sorry, RG.

Kag wrote:
sje46 wrote: It sounds like you just came on, inferring that the OP is an atheist who believes that IQ means intelligence
B|

Sorry to be a nuisance, but I have to know what "B|" mean? It doesn't work very well as a search term.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Kag » Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:06 pm UTC

It's an emote for something like a stern look or a deadpan stare.
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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby sje46 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:04 pm UTC

Kag wrote:It's an emote for something like a stern look or a deadpan stare.

I figured that it might be that, in which case, I find it a little stupid-looking, but I also thought it might have been a "B&" kinda thing, but I didn't know what that vertical line was called.

But that is off topic.

Homer Simpson has a point.
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Pirate.Bondage: Let's get married. Right now.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby norEpiPen » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:31 am UTC

It is significantly higher. I bring the average up a lot.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:32 am UTC

Remember everyone: Don't feed the trolls. This has been a PA PSA.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Lord Aurora » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:38 am UTC

Holy necro, batman! Old thread is OLD.
Decker wrote:Children! Children! There's no need to fight. You're ALL stupid.

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby Dr_Gonzo » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:32 pm UTC

0xBADFEED wrote:
2) "I think it's totally plausible that the entire cognitive abilities of a person can be adequately guaged by a 1-2 hour test within a reasonable margin of error and that the result can be succinctly expressed as a single number."


A real IQ test (one administered by a professional psychometrist) takes more like 1.5-2 hours to finish. The ones you find on the web that take 30 minutes tend to have considerable percent error.
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." -Richard Dawkins

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Re: What's the average IQ of an atheist?

Postby RealGrouchy » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:37 am UTC

Lord Aurora wrote:Holy necro, batman! Old thread is OLD.
Settle down, there, sonny. You don't know the meaning of the word.

- RG>
Jack Saladin wrote:etc., lock'd
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:At least he has the decency to REMOVE THE GAP BETWEEN HIS QUOTES....
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