[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Van » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:24 am UTC

Flagpole Sitta wrote:I was hoping some of you forumites might be able to point me in the right direction for research. What are some credible sources that discuss the specifics of the sex change process and why it is necessary for trans people? Or maybe some advice on where to start looking, or how to tell who knows what they're talking about and who dosen't? A lot of the information out there seems very anecdotal, or just inaccurate, and I don't think my professor will accept "being a part of the scene" as a source...

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/471/114.doc wrote:AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES Resolution: 114(A-08)

The medical literature has established the effectiveness and medical necessity of mental health care, hormone therapy, and sex reassignment surgery in the treatment of patients diagnosed with GID [...] therefore be it RESOLVED, That our American Medical Association support public and private health insurance coverage for treatment of gender identity disorder in adolescents and adults

I don't know what literature they're referring to specifically (and I didn't directly view the doc :P, I'm being super lazy/naughty and quoting a blog), but a "suggestion" from the AMA about that is pretty strong. And likely to be the reason that we get covered under national health care; there's a small bit in there stating that health care should cover everything that the AMA deems "medically necessarily", which is a great way of getting it in under the radar.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Delalyra » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:22 am UTC

Osha wrote:And sometimes it might not come out quite right and send the message that all cis people are stupid poo heads instead of just most of them. And for that I apologize and am truly sorry.
and cis is pretty set in stone by this point, like straight, or abled, or whatever.
but! sometimes I'm not clear enough that the people I'm ranting about are the stupid ones with the invasive questions
There are tons of *not* stupid cis people, like the denizens of this thread.

Off a tangent to this... part of being an ally to any group is that you (in general) have to realize that rants to the effect of "stupid men"/"stupid white people"/"stupid cis people" etc, those rants are not about you, because you are not a stupid any-of-the-above, you are a good ally.

Which is not to say that allies don't fuck up, but if you care about being an ally it's less of a big deal, because you'll listen and fix it.

hopefully that was comforting and not patronizing!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Esperite » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:41 am UTC

Kinda off topic, but I just thought of it: I'm really really happy that my mom is awesome. My parents are divorced, so I live with her (and 1 brother, who is more meh), but it makes me happy whenever I'm reading trans information. I read about how difficult and terrifying it can be to get parents to accept you, and I know my mom would be okay with it. She's said multiple times that she'd be fine if my brother or I were gay, and shes always been very open and accepting. I can always skim through the "make sure your not relying on your parents before you tell them" and the "getting parents to accept can be the hardest part" stuff, because I don't worry about that at all. So, when I eventually do tell her, I won't have to be scared. The only reason I havent said anything yet is because of teh awkwards and it would pose questions and changes I don't feel ready for, plus I'm not sure enough about it yet. I also can't name anyone I like who I can think of outright rejecting transexuality (hooray for gifted kids!), so I don't really have much fear about being open. (besides the aforementioned awkwards and questions)
Edit: I have to mention this forum too, everyone here has been awesome!
So, yay good parents and friends! And great forumites!
*happy*
:D
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby crickets » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:53 am UTC

Delalyra wrote:
Osha wrote:And sometimes it might not come out quite right and send the message that all cis people are stupid poo heads instead of just most of them. And for that I apologize and am truly sorry.
and cis is pretty set in stone by this point, like straight, or abled, or whatever.
but! sometimes I'm not clear enough that the people I'm ranting about are the stupid ones with the invasive questions
There are tons of *not* stupid cis people, like the denizens of this thread.

Off a tangent to this... part of being an ally to any group is that you (in general) have to realize that rants to the effect of "stupid men"/"stupid white people"/"stupid cis people" etc, those rants are not about you, because you are not a stupid any-of-the-above, you are a good ally.

Which is not to say that allies don't fuck up, but if you care about being an ally it's less of a big deal, because you'll listen and fix it.

hopefully that was comforting and not patronizing!


Spoilered for being potentially very sensitive:
Spoiler:
I'm more bothered by any sweeping generalizations at all. I think it's the connotation that if someone said the exact same thing about a minority group, there would be a serious problem. It's not okay to say "stupid gay people", why is it okay to say "stupid straight people"? I mean, i'm a privliged white female from the suburbs who is comfortably well off. Yes, i have mental health issues, and yes, i pretty much identify as homoflexible, but if i didn't, would my opinion be invalid? I've run this a LOT, where my opinion is considered useless because i fall into a majority, or because i havn't met the requisit experiences for life or something. It's just... i find it really scary. I dunno. I guess i'm just hoping that we could all tone down the "stupid x-people" and maybe be more direct in, say "stupid x-institution" or "stupid x-group". I know i'm being hyper sensitive, and you're free to ignore me completely.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Jessica » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:05 am UTC

I do know my hormones are covered under my work drug plan. Which is pretty sweet. 80% coverage! yay! The rest theoretically could be covered if I went through the clark institute, and was chosen as one of the 3 or 4 people who get their transition covered a year. And start my transition again from the start. And deal with dickheads like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHuEpcmXvG0 Ken Zucker.

re: cis - I don't see it as an insult in itself, but I can see how it's used as one. Actually, I know exactly how people can see it as an insult. Mainly because it comes up, when it's a trans environment, often when talking about non-trans people. And when trans people talk about non-trans people, often there can be some feelings of pain behind it.

We shouldn't group the majority or minority. And it's bad to insult any group as a whole. Consciously I know that. But, I still also get hurt and angry when people who don't know any better do things to crush my world. And it's easy to see it as us vs them.

But, that's bad. And it doesn't promote unity.

Sorry if I made you feel bad, crickets :(
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:12 am UTC

crickets wrote:
PM 2Ring wrote:
Whoa. I never thought about it that way.

Very few cisgendered people contemplate having their genitalia surgically modified. So if you sit around thinking "Should I transition, or should I kill myself?", you're probably trans. :)


This rings incredibly untrue to me. Really.

Really? I assume we agree on my first assertion, so I assume you disagree about the second part. Sure, not all trans people have been suicidally depressed at some stage over gender identity issues, but it is very common. And I really don't understand why a cisgendered person woul become suicidally depressed over their gender identity. But maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

crickets wrote:Also, i'm starting to feel really guilty about posting in this thread because it seems like "cisgendered" has become a dirty word. I'm comfortable with my gender and my sex, and so every time i have a sexuality related crisis that isn't related to gender some how, i feel like this thread has no place for me, which is upsetting.

Sorry if any of my comments here have caused offence to anyone. I certainly didn't mean to imply that cis people are stupid or nasty. And I'm sure the vast majority of cis people bear no malice to trans people: I don't pass that well, but very few people seem to be bothered by me when I go out en femme.

However, few cisgendered people have spent the same amount of time contemplating gender issues as transgendered people do, so I don't expect them to have much information or well-formed opinions on these matters.


Flagpole Sitta wrote:I was hoping some of you forumites might be able to point me in the right direction for research. What are some credible sources that discuss the specifics of the sex change process and why it is necessary for trans people? Or maybe some advice on where to start looking, or how to tell who knows what they're talking about and who dosen't? A lot of the information out there seems very anecdotal, or just inaccurate, and I don't think my professor will accept "being a part of the scene" as a source...

Hi, Flagpole Sitta! You might find what you're looking for at the Transsexual Road Map. One rather relevant link from there is Seeking Stories: Gender Transition and Health Insurance Coverage

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby podbaydoor » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:45 am UTC

However, few cisgendered people have spent the same amount of time contemplating gender issues as transgendered people do, so I don't expect them to have much information or well-formed opinions on these matters.

At the same time...this is the LGBTIQQ thread, not just the TIQQ thread...
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:48 am UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:Really? I assume we agree on my first assertion, so I assume you disagree about the second part. Sure, not all trans people have been suicidally depressed at some stage over gender identity issues, but it is very common. And I really don't understand why a cisgendered person woul become suicidally depressed over their gender identity. But maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

I think what crickets is uncomfortable with (as am I) is the implication that all questioning people are trans. Besides the questionable logic of saying that since few cis people do it, we should overlook the individual's actual identity even when speaking on a case-to-case basis, I'm very suspicious of where the idea of mapping any certainty less than one onto one half of a binary would come from, and of how it contributes to the pronouncement of cis identities as default.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Wyvern » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:12 am UTC

Jessica wrote:And deal with dickheads like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHuEpcmXvG0 Ken Zucker.

Eugh. Watching that left me thoroughly upset. That guy has no idea what he's talking about. I actually cringed every time he said "treatment." He found a way to make it sound sinister. My brain kept drawing analogous lines between what he was saying and those horrid "ex-gay ministries." It really just makes me want to vomit.


crickets wrote:Yes, i have mental health issues, and yes, i pretty much identify as homoflexible, but if i didn't, would my opinion be invalid? I've run this a LOT, where my opinion is considered useless because i fall into a majority, or because i havn't met the requisit experiences for life or something.


I'm really glad that you mentioned this, Crickets. It's something that has irritated me a lot. People seem to be more willing to listen to whoever has a more unique perspective. People with different perspectives often do have unique and valuable input, but It irks me when people hold the words of "whoever has it worst" (eww, even just typing it felt gross) as the more valid and valuable than everyone else's just because of who it is coming from, regardless of what is actually being said. It's incredibly patronizing to the one being held in such regard, and rather demeaning to everyone else.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:39 am UTC

It's a reminder, really, that what we're after is for everyone to be willing to listen to everyone. The worst thing we can do is hold another in contempt. Contempt is a short circuit, a mode of thought-emotion that dismisses another person (or group, or idea, or ideal) as deserving of hate.

Our only workable weapon is understanding. The more we understand, the more we feel compassion, the less we feel contempt, the less we hate. It sucks that it's the burden of the non-dominant to demonstrate this first, but that's the only way I've seen things get better. Gandhi has almost become a cliche, to the point that we forget his message: only patience and understanding will overcome violence and hate. Contempt breeds contempt. Understanding breeds understanding, though more slowly. (Sometimes MUCH more slowly.)

Sorry for the rant. My head has been full of theory and pain for a while now. I think too much when this happens. :|

Pre-post edit: Gandhi's patience and understanding were coupled with action, too. It's a tough balance, action with patience, but it's possible. He proved it in one situation, anyway.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:13 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
PM 2Ring wrote:Really? I assume we agree on my first assertion, so I assume you disagree about the second part. Sure, not all trans people have been suicidally depressed at some stage over gender identity issues, but it is very common. And I really don't understand why a cisgendered person woul become suicidally depressed over their gender identity. But maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

I think what crickets is uncomfortable with (as am I) is the implication that all questioning people are trans. Besides the questionable logic of saying that since few cis people do it, we should overlook the individual's actual identity even when speaking on a case-to-case basis, I'm very suspicious of where the idea of mapping any certainty less than one onto one half of a binary would come from, and of how it contributes to the pronouncement of cis identities as default.
Ah. Ok. I wasn't trying to imply that all questioning people are trans. Or, for that matter, that all trans people question their gender identity (but I suspect most do, at some stage or another. There's plenty of scope for feeling uncomfotable with gender issues if you're trans in a predominantly cis world). But if a person has spent a lot of time &energy beating themselves up over their gender identity, I think it's fair to assume that they do have genuine gender identity issues, and that they may in fact be some kind of trans person.

I repeat, if I have offended anyone by my remarks here, please accept my apologies. This place has a wonderfully supportive atmosphere, and I definitely don't want to disrupt that. As I've mentioned before, I've seen all sorts of infighting in online trans support forums. This safespace thread is excellent because everyone here goes out of their way to try to understand the others & to make each other feel comfortable.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby crickets » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:35 am UTC

I was also sort of implying that you don't even have to be questioning your gender to have impulses to alter your external sex characteristics. Personally, i've always been secure in that i'm female, which is comforting, but i've had some really... odd impulses regarding my self-image, which has frequently manifested towards my genitalia. Which is actually kind of weird, i know, but that's just... me. It's really hard to explain, so i'll just stop now.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby podbaydoor » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:34 pm UTC

I'm also probably 100% satisfied with being female and looking feminine - but I think (I'm not sure, this is something I admitted to myself only just last night) sometimes I would rather be a man during sex instead of a woman - not just in a wishful thinking kind of way but an actual jealousy/longing. I expect this issue is more 'shallow' than other core issues in my character, so I'm still comfortably cisgendered, but...like everyone else, we're not a monolith either.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Josephine » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:50 am UTC

I find that because I have never been suicidal, or the fact that I could live as male (obviously not ideal, though) trivializes my experiences. Should I really even try getting into something costing tens of thousands of dollars and years of effort for something that isn't absolutely necessary? Now, the feelings have been getting more pronounced over the last year, so It may become a bigger issue.

Of course, I spent a few months training my emotions to be minimal (one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made), so that could be part of the reason I'm not as depressed as I hear is common. I thought when I stopped actively doing that that it stopped, but perhaps not.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Esperite » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:56 am UTC

I find that because I have never been suicidal, or the fact that I could live as male (obviously not ideal, though) trivializes my experiences. Should I really even try getting into something costing tens of thousands of dollars and years of effort for something that isn't absolutely necessary? Now, the feelings have been getting more pronounced over the last year, so It may become a bigger issue.

^YES! That is so much like my situation! Even the next part you posted rings relevant, because I wouldn't prefer to live male, as much as I wouldn't mind too much.

Also, I really hope noone feels like their opinions aren't valid/wanted. I like this being a safespace discussion about all LGBTIQQ etc. issues and thoughts. It doesn't matter to me if you even fall into those categories, it's still nice to hear from other forumites.

Finally, moving slightly away from the T, I found what I think is the best way to describe my sexual preference: bi-curious. I know I can be attracted to girls, but I don't know about guys. I've never really specifically liked anyone (either), but I'm sure with girls at this point, guys seem to elude me though. (Probably because it's alot more awkward to look and think about that than it is with girls. Curse subconscious avoidance!)
Edit: Just to clarify - I know labels can't fully explain things, but it's still nice to have an easy way to explain things, so that if I don't feel like giving a full explanation, it's still possible for someone to understand the gist of it.

(Please, don't feel excluded! And don't worry, cis-gendered is not a dirty word in my book. :) )
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:22 am UTC

I mentioned the non-gendered idea to a friend of mine recently. She was surprised. She has apparently always perceived me as fully female, mentally and emotionally as well as physically. She also told me about times in her past when she'd bound her breasts and presented in public as male. She has also chosen to shorten her very-feminine name into a mostly-masculine-sounding version, something like Jo from Joanne. (That answered my unthought question about her choice.)

That surprised me in turn, since I perceive her as fundamentally, vitally female. Energetic and roaring like a lion(ess), at times, but still vitally female. (I can't think of a better adverb than "vitally". I don't know why. Something to do with living energy, maybe.)

On top of that, I described the non-gendered idea to my long-time (~11 year) therapist. He was also surprised, also thought of me as fully female. Between the two of us, we wondered if my experiences growing up might have contributed to the sense of alienation from gender (which is a phrase I invented just now, but sounds kinda okay for me). He suggested, and I also wonder, if my asexuality is also driven mostly by my lack of bonding with either birth or adoptive mother, by never having a truly safe, unconditional bond with a parent (and therefore never with anyone else at all).

Interesting, emotionally chaotic challenging times. Should I start looking for a partner, one I hope will have the patience to explore with me whether I will ever feel truly safe enough to enjoy sex? Do I accept that that is bloody unlikely and start arranging my life to accommodate my quirks? Having a partner would solve several other challenges I'm facing, such as loneliness and lack of structure. It would also introduce a metric buttload (as the kids say) of new problems, maybe ones that are important for me to learn to solve.

tl;dr: life is one giant tangle. No one has a solution for me. I hafta work it all out the hard way. It sucks sometimes. :|
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Josephine » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:30 am UTC

Esperite wrote:
I find that because I have never been suicidal, or the fact that I could live as male (obviously not ideal, though) trivializes my experiences. Should I really even try getting into something costing tens of thousands of dollars and years of effort for something that isn't absolutely necessary? Now, the feelings have been getting more pronounced over the last year, so It may become a bigger issue.

^YES! That is so much like my situation! Even the next part you posted rings relevant, because I wouldn't prefer to live male, as much as I wouldn't mind too much.


Thanks for existing. always good to find someone in my own situation.
Finally, moving slightly away from the T, I found what I think is the best way to describe my sexual preference: bi-curious. I know I can be attracted to girls, but I don't know about guys. I've never really specifically liked anyone (either), but I'm sure with girls at this point, guys seem to elude me though. (Probably because it's alot more awkward to look and think about that than it is with girls. Curse subconscious avoidance!)
Edit: Just to clarify - I know labels can't fully explain things, but it's still nice to have an easy way to explain things, so that if I don't feel like giving a full explanation, it's still possible for someone to understand the gist of it.

Wow, this rings true for me too. I get envy. I find myself attracted to what I imagine when I see myself in a female persona. but if attraction runs deeper for me then that (it might not), I am open to anything, just a matter of inexperience.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:16 am UTC

nbonaparte wrote:I find that because I have never been suicidal, or the fact that I could live as male (obviously not ideal, though) trivializes my experiences.

Please don't feel like that, nbonaparte! I'm very happy that you haven't been through the heavy depression that some of us have. There's no reason that all LGBTIQQ people can't grow up to be happy and well adjusted, but it won't be the norm until societies become better informed on these issues and more tolerant. Or someone gives Poxic the magic wand mentioned earlier. :)

nbonaparte wrote:Should I really even try getting into something costing tens of thousands of dollars and years of effort for something that isn't absolutely necessary? Now, the feelings have been getting more pronounced over the last year, so It may become a bigger issue.

Of course, I spent a few months training my emotions to be minimal (one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made), so that could be part of the reason I'm not as depressed as I hear is common. I thought when I stopped actively doing that that it stopped, but perhaps not.

Hmm. Being able to supress your emotions is a useful skill, but it's certainly not a very healthy long-term strategy.

The term "trans" covers a lot of territory, and all parts of this territory are valid, IMHO. Find the part of this territory that feels right for you. This may or may not involve transition.

Anyway, enough serious stuff. :) Here's a little bit of humour. I hope you like it.

http://www.beckysweb.co.uk/choose_drab.htm
http://www.beckysweb.co.uk/transvestism.asp

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Osha » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:22 am UTC

People who weren't suicidal and probably could have lived as a guy: me

for uh, what it's worth

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Van » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:49 pm UTC

There's a lot of variation in how people handle things. Not just from person to person, but also from situation to situation; I had an abusive childhood and got out of that without any issues or outside help, but trying to fight being trans just about did me in. Pigeonholing people into "you must be this distraught to ride the transition" is super badong.

Also, it's just like the something COGNIATI would dodoes, which is worse than badong.
Spoiler:
it actually features a question about suicidal thoughts, and considers you less of a transsexual if you answer in the negative
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Osha » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:09 pm UTC

Ah the COGIATI! What a joke! It's a good thing no one in the medical field takes it seriously (right?... right?!), and I'd just laugh about it but I'm sure there are probably some trans women who take it and get discouraged or something...
so instead I will stabby it. :<

Spoiler:
Which choice most closely describes why you dress up 'en femme', as a woman.
  • Sometimes it excites me, sometimes it's just nice.
  • The only reason I do it is because it makes me feel better. I really don't do it for excitement.
  • Mostly it just makes me feel better somehow.
  • It is a very sexy thing to do. It is very exciting. I love it!
  • It does turn me on quite a bit,

uhhh.... UHH

Visualize the following entirely in your head. Do not draw or write anything, just use your mind. Picture a pair of cubes. The two cubes are connected by a bar through their middle, like a dumbbell. Imagine that the dumbbell object is floating in front of you, one cube close to you, the other directly away from you. Now, imagine that the cube nearest you is red, and the cube furthest from you is blue. Picture the dumbbell built of two cube and a rod begins to rotate, the near, red cube, dropping down and away, and the blue, far cube, rotating up and nearer. The dumbbell continues so that it now stands vertical, in front of you, the red cube on the bottom, the blue cube on the top. Continue this direction of rotation, end over end, three times exactly, starting with that state where the red cube was on the bottom, and the blue cube was on the top. What is the position of either cube, red or blue? [Top or bottom?]

This question measures the subjects psychic ability to telepathically determine the test makers angle of rotation (if you go with the logical assumption of 90 degrees none of the answers work)

You hear a noise from somewhere. Without looking, how well can you identify the direction of the sound from you?

This just in! Deaf people more likely to be transsexual women!

You are at a meeting. Everyone at the meeting is the same sex as you. The leader of the meeting announces that it's time for hugs all around! How do you feel about this?
wtf?

As a child, when you played with close friends, how would you describe the type of play you liked to be a part of the most?
  • I liked neat toys, and we would ride bikes or play ball games.
  • I liked to be pretty active. I liked cool toys too, and we would build forts.
  • Toys were fun, we would play games where we would pretend a lot.
  • I liked to get out and do things. Run, jump, and yell. Let off some steam.
  • We would make up stories about ourselves and our toys. We would talk and sing too.
Uhh, all of the above?

You are parking your car. You must reverse into a somewhat narrow space to park. What do you do?
  • I don't like that situation. I would park there only if things were pretty crowded.
  • I slide right in. Piece of cake!
  • I would go look for another place to park. Who needs the aggravation?
  • It's a little tricky, I might pass on it and look for better.
  • It's a bother, but I can manage most of the time.
People who have had more experience at driving: totally dudez. Wimminfolk let their men drive them around because their ladybrains would just break down crying.

You are shown a number of close-up photographs of the faces of many different people you do not know. You are asked to describe the emotions that the people are feeling by the expressions on their faces alone. How well would you do, do you think?
Ah yes "pretend you were actually taking some sort of unrelated *scientific* test, what would your results be?"

Q. A stranger is happy at meeting you. He wants to give you a hug. How do you honestly feel about this?
A. (-10) That would be a little weird for me.
A. (-5) I would feel a little put off by it, frankly.
A. (0) It might be OK.
A. (5) It's kind of nice.
A. (10) I like to hug. It's a warm feeling.

Because all women totally love hugging random strangers! Wait... WHAT?!

Here's the whole thing along with the points for the different answers so you can see how ridiculous it is

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Jessica » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:15 pm UTC

I remember finding that test as a teenager and taking it a few times, and never quite getting transsexual woman.

It was discouraging.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby abitha » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:32 pm UTC

Never heard of the COGIATI before, just looked it up. So basically it's a questionnaire that assesses how closely you conform to modern western gender stereotypes, huh?

I just tried taking it for amusement's sake (i'm a straight, cis female - obviously not who the test is intended for, but whatever) and picked answers as best i could when the questions didn't apply to me. It told me i'm an androgyne. Intriguing! :? Don't think i'd take it very seriously, somehow...

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Esperite » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:29 pm UTC

I took it a few times. I always get androgyne =P. I never really felt that it was that big of a deal though. I still like taking personality tests and stuff like it though.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Josephine » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:36 pm UTC

Osha wrote:People who weren't suicidal and probably could have lived as a guy: me

for uh, what it's worth


Good to hear. Thanks people.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Delalyra » Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:11 am UTC

Esperite wrote:I took it a few times. I always get androgyne =P. I never really felt that it was that big of a deal though. I still like taking personality tests and stuff like it though.
The best part about being a psych major is that I have access to lots of really cool and (usually) valid personality tests. Uhh, I have never heard of this COGIATI one, though... gender stereotypes, indeed!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby InfamousAnarchist » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:59 am UTC

For those of you just now joining us, I fall firmly into the B in LGBTIQQ, I'm a dude, and I am in a long-term relationship with a girl (and have been with this person since seventh grade), I am a sophomore in high school.

Only there's this thing.


This boy. And I think I really like him. I want to try this. But I don't know how to initiate the "we're breaking up" conversation. I've changed, she's changed. But I can't just sever the ties.

But this boy is crushing on me, too. He and I are talking about it now. (oh yeah, and I managed to turn him bi). I just don't know what to do about the girl. I don't want to cheat, but I don't want to leave him hanging in the balance while I settle things with her.

We also don't know how public to go. If we were open about it, we'd get constantly harassed, and if we didn't tell anyone we couldn't be together anywhere near public.

My parents think I am straight. This must be rectified at some point.

I think we're going through with this. How do I end things without too many tears or too much anger?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Chai Kovsky » Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:23 am UTC

Infamous,
Cauterize with girl. Say that you are growing apart or whatever you have to say, but firmly end it and don't try to be friends or anything for a while. It's especially hard in long-term relationships, but it's way easier to do it cold-turkey. For the sake of decency, though, give the relationship a mourning period before you go out with boy. He started expressing interest while you were still with someone, so it's still reasonable to ask him to wait a while before you go out. I'm certainly guilty of jumping from one relationship to another, but you may want to think about whether you're comfortable starting that kind of pattern.

As for being public with boy, harassment is really rough. If you're concerned for your safety, I can't in good conscience recommend that you be open all the way. There's a world of difference with harassers between people who are friendly-looking friends (okay, VERY friendly) and those who don't leave any doubt. What kind of situation are you in? How are your parents going to react if you tell them?

Finally, I worry about the phrase "turn him bi." Generally, he either was before or he's still questioning. Given what it sounds like from your environment, it might be hard to break things off with girl, come out to people, only for him to figure out that he's straight-but-experimenting and leave you out in the cold.

Keep us posted!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby functionally_stupid » Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:46 am UTC

I've actually found that people's perceptions of my gender tend to reflect their own sexual orientation. Straight dudes think of me as definitely being female, straight women tend to think of me as male, lesbians tend to think of me as female, bisexual people tend to think of me as both, gay men think of me as male, and so on.

Edit: People who aren't attracted to me whatsoever usually just think of me as sexless.

Androgyny ftw?

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:48 am UTC

Perhaps you just have GRATUITOUS AMOUNTS OF ATTRACTIVENESS!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby DJorgensen » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:51 am UTC

Osha wrote:People who weren't suicidal and probably could have lived as a guy: me

for uh, what it's worth

Not me! But then that's difficult to peg on being trans or all of the other issues. Considering what I have done in that neighbourhood in the past though... well... that was in the past...

functionally_stupid wrote:Edit: People who aren't attracted to me whatsoever usually just think of me as sexless.

uhhh
>.>
<.<
Not true!
But I think sexless is attractive (well at least just as much as male and female). You're like an angel!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:27 am UTC

More fun from Becky T: her antidote to the COGIATI test - The COGRIATI test: COmplete Guesswork for Roughly Identifying A TransvestIte test. :)

http://www.beckysweb.co.uk/tranny-test.asp

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby InfamousAnarchist » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:52 pm UTC

Chai Kovsky wrote:Finally, I worry about the phrase "turn him bi." Generally, he either was before or he's still questioning. Given what it sounds like from your environment, it might be hard to break things off with girl, come out to people, only for him to figure out that he's straight-but-experimenting and leave you out in the cold.

Keep us posted!


Several things:
1) Thank you so much for helping. I feel empowered now.
2) That phrase. It was late and that was truly a pretty weird thing of me to say. It sounds to me (and we've discussed it) that he was but chose not to admit it to himself (much like I did for the better part of a year). My (really close) friends already know that I'm bi, but most other people don't. (Girl does.)
3) This whole thing was pretty much his idea, so I don't feel like he'll up and ditch me, although I appreciate the warning. I guess no-one would ever feel like their potential partner would up and ditch them.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Chai Kovsky » Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:35 pm UTC

The fact that it was "pretty much his idea" sets off a couple alarm bells too. Some people are okay with this kind of thing, but let me just put it out there and say it: did you and Girl have fatal relationship problems before, or is Boy the newer shinier model? I'm certainly not perfect about this kind of thing, but you may want to think about whether you're okay, in principle, with dumping something that ain't broken, if that's the case. It seems a bit like he's seducing you into leaving her.

Having said that, this could all turn out wonderfully and you could love each other forever and have a bazillion adopted babies. It's just something to keep in mind.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Carnildo » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:28 pm UTC

Osha wrote:Ah the COGIATI! What a joke! It's a good thing no one in the medical field takes it seriously (right?... right?!), and I'd just laugh about it but I'm sure there are probably some trans women who take it and get discouraged or something...

I took the online version with the intent of seeing how easy it is to manipulate, and I had trouble finishing because I was laughing so hard ("describe your relationship with mathematics"? Seriously?). It's not a measure of transgenderism, it's a measure of how well you conform to western conservative gender stereotypes, with a side order of transgender sterotypes.

Incidentally, the test would be useless if I were answering honestly. Between Asperger's and face-blindness, I'd have to give the "male" answers for many of the questions.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Esperite » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:59 am UTC

Meh, another rant that could go either here or the rant thread (posting it here because it's Trans related):

Spoiler:
I really need to find a way to get motivated to practive getting a female voice. I know there are video-lessons and stuff, I've seen a couple, and that would be the easiest (and fastest to implement) way for me to learn. However, during the ~30 minutes I have the house to myself each weekday, I never have the motivation to do it. I always want to, or wish I did, but it's right after school, I generally have something planned that I want to do, and blarhg. Plus, if I don't get on our main computer when I get home (which is the only one I can play my games on), then I have to wait an hour after my brother comes home. It doesn't help me feel any better that this is literally the only obstacle I can think of before I could probably go out en femme.
My inability to get motivated = :(


Edit: changed 'planned' to 'want to do,' since planned implies it something scheduled that I can't avoid. I just mean something I feel like doing (ex. I just got a new game recently, and I want to play it when I get home)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby InfamousAnarchist » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:08 am UTC

Chai Kovsky wrote:Some people are okay with this kind of thing, but let me just put it out there and say it: did you and Girl have fatal relationship problems before, or is Boy the newer shinier model?.

Again, thank you so much.
Re: Girl and I...
Spoiler:
are together more or less out of habit. I loved her. But the longer I went, the more it felt like I couldn't keep going like this. I'm not happy being with her and that particular feeling rears its head more often now. It got really bad about three months ago, then went away for a while, then came back. She doesn't like some of my best friends, and I feel like she could be more appreciated by someone who isn't me. It's not fair to her to make her stay with me any more than it is fair to leave Boy hanging in the balance.


Re: My parents.
Spoiler:
My father will understand. My uncle (his brother) is gay and living with his partner in New York. My mother will feel sorry for me. Which is stupid and something I don't want. I don't want pity. I'm still their son. I'm the same person I always have been, only now she'll know something else about me. I don't know. She's asked me before, when I wasn't but everyone thought I was (she had walked in on me watching Will & Grace.) and I flipped out on her. Now she won't ask because she'll think I'll freak again. Somehow I had asked what she would have said had I said yes, and she said that she would have felt sorry for me. This is the life that involves me lying the least to myself. It, to me, wasn't so much a choice, but I still chose to act on it, and that's what made all the difference to me.

[/ramble]
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Chai Kovsky » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:22 am UTC

InfamousAnarchist wrote:It's not fair to her to make her stay with me any more than it is fair to leave Boy hanging in the balance.
This is just plain-faced not true. She chooses to be with you just like you choose to be with her--you're not MAKING her do anything. And it's perfectly fair for Boy to be in whatever situation he's in because he got all up in that with a guy who was already in a relationship. I understand that you want to be with Boy, but don't think that you have an ethical obligation to make things go speedily for his sake.

If you want to break up with her, I'm certainly not going to say you shouldn't. It sounds like you guys are together only because it's too much effort and pain for either of you to break it off, and that's not really a good reason to stay in a relationship. Boy provides the impetus to do something you really wanted to do anyway. Like I said in my first post about this, make it quick and painless with Girl--don't let it be subject to any more drama than there has to be, or you may just give up and postpone the breakup to avoid the pain associated with it.

Re your parents: It sounds like you have, if not a supportive family, at least not a dangerous one. When coming out, there are two competing strains of advice: do it when you're older, so they know it's coming from a more mature place, or do it younger to give them more time to accept you. I didn't really have a choice in my coming out: not only did my mom wonder about me from a really young age, but she was the one who asked me about whether I thought I was. So I'm only a sophomore in college and I've been out for 7 years now (my mom's been out to me for 5 and to the public for 3.5). I'm not the kind of person to advocate coming out in all situations--only you can gauge how your parents will react--but it doesn't sound like they'll have a hugely negative reaction. Just make sure they have a pretty solid understanding of what it means to be bi, since many people of that generation don't understand how it works (for some common questions that you can troubleshoot, there's the bisexual chapter in The Straight Person's Guide to Gay Etiquette (which I read when I was about 12 and navigating my way lesbianism and bisexuality).

Regardless of what you choose to do about coming out to your family, we're all here to support you. *Hugs*
Spoiler:
kellsbells wrote:¡This Chai is burning me!
Chai Kovsky wrote:I can kill you with my brain.

That is all.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby videogamesizzle » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:12 am UTC

It seems like staying with Girl won't really work for you. I'd have to agree with what's already been said and go quick and painless. Although I also agree that there needs to be a period of "healing time." you can't just say "I'm breaking up with you, now I'm gonna go start making out with Boy over here kthnxbai."
But if you don't feel right in your relationship with Girl, it might be best to at least reconsider it. But don't just go for it because some guy on the internet said it. It's going to take a lot of reflection and it's going to be mostly based on your own situation.

As far as your family goes, I'd suggest going with your uncle first, if you can. Of anyone in your family, he'd be the most understanding and could probably help you out the most. The first person I came out to in real life was my gay uncle, and he's helped quite a bit. I'd say work towards your dad then, if you feel like he'll be supportive. Your mom may need a bit more time before you can be fully open about it, but I'd say to first figure out how she feels about the issue in general, maybe bring up a conversation about some LGBT event in the news or something.
This is all going to depend on your specific circumstances, though. If it would be detrimental for anyone to find out, definitely wait, but I'd say your uncle would be a fantastic place to start.

I always feel weird giving relationship/life advice. >.< Take it with a few grains of salt, 'kay?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Jessica » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:25 pm UTC

Esperite wrote:Meh, another rant that could go either here or the rant thread (posting it here because it's Trans related):
Spoiler:
I really need to find a way to get motivated to practive getting a female voice. I know there are video-lessons and stuff, I've seen a couple, and that would be the easiest (and fastest to implement) way for me to learn. However, during the ~30 minutes I have the house to myself each weekday, I never have the motivation to do it. I always want to, or wish I did, but it's right after school, I generally have something planned that I want to do, and blarhg. Plus, if I don't get on our main computer when I get home (which is the only one I can play my games on), then I have to wait an hour after my brother comes home. It doesn't help me feel any better that this is literally the only obstacle I can think of before I could probably go out en femme.
My inability to get motivated = :(
Edit: changed 'planned' to 'want to do,' since planned implies it something scheduled that I can't avoid. I just mean something I feel like doing (ex. I just got a new game recently, and I want to play it when I get home)
How important is a feminine voice to you? Do you really care? Is there a reason you want one? Does it make you feel more like you?

If it's something you really want, and you're willing to work for, you'll find the time to do it. I payed a voice coach to teach me, which was pretty awesome, and I've got a passable voice sometimes, but I realized how much I don't really care, other than work. My voice as it is when I'm relaxed, is pretty masculine, but it's not horrible. So I don't mind. But when I'm on the phone, it's a pain, which is why work is a problem though...
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