[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

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animeHrmIne
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby animeHrmIne » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:25 pm UTC

I really need to come out to my father, but I'm at a loss as to how to go about it. The thing is, as a senior in high school, I'm filling out a ton of college apps, etc. And he's really invested in everything, meaning that eventually he'll see that I'm applying for queer scholarships (if I can find any that aren't exclusively gay/lesbian >.<). I've already written like 4 essays about being queer, but he hasn't asked to read my essays, so that's good.

I'm honestly kind of scared to tell him. He seems to think he's a calm, reasonable person, but I and everyone else I know can confirm that he can get irrationally dangerous about very little thing. He reacts unpredictably to things, and he can't seem to see that his emotional manipulation and extremely condescending, forceful manner could be damaging.

The worst part is that he's pretty much gay-friendly (still heterosexit/heteronormative, but nothing too awful), but he's incredibly cissexist, and I don't know how to deal with that part of coming out as pansexual. I've had discussions about trans* issues with him, but he's dismissive and hateful and it really sucks.

tl;dr: I still live part-time with my father, who supports me financially, but because I'm filling out queer scholarships, etc. I probably need to come out to him, but I don't know how/I'm scared.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby sambot5 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:12 pm UTC

animeHrmIne wrote:I really need to come out to my father, but I'm at a loss as to how to go about it. The thing is, as a senior in high school, I'm filling out a ton of college apps, etc. And he's really invested in everything, meaning that eventually he'll see that I'm applying for queer scholarships (if I can find any that aren't exclusively gay/lesbian >.<). I've already written like 4 essays about being queer, but he hasn't asked to read my essays, so that's good.

I'm honestly kind of scared to tell him. He seems to think he's a calm, reasonable person, but I and everyone else I know can confirm that he can get irrationally dangerous about very little thing. He reacts unpredictably to things, and he can't seem to see that his emotional manipulation and extremely condescending, forceful manner could be damaging.

The worst part is that he's pretty much gay-friendly (still heterosexit/heteronormative, but nothing too awful), but he's incredibly cissexist, and I don't know how to deal with that part of coming out as pansexual. I've had discussions about trans* issues with him, but he's dismissive and hateful and it really sucks.

tl;dr: I still live part-time with my father, who supports me financially, but because I'm filling out queer scholarships, etc. I probably need to come out to him, but I don't know how/I'm scared.


I know exactly how you feel. I'm a senior filling out a bunch of college apps and I haven't come out to anyone IRL. While I'm not applying for any lgbt scholarships (I didn't know that there were any), your post reminded me of the following essay prompt:
"Discuss something you secretly like but pretend not to, or vice versa."

I immediately thought of writing about how I secretly *like* guys, but pretend to be straight. However, my parents are super-invested in my college apps (which is nice), and to write about that would mean coming out to them, which is something that I'm not entirely ready to do yet.

Hang in there; everything will eventually work out. :D
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:03 pm UTC

Yeah, you're in a tough situation and advice is hard to give. Being disowned can derail college, and so some recommend putting off coming out until you graduate / are financially independent. It may be wise to avoid applying for queer scholarships.

You can try to keep the essay / scholarship secret from your parents. I wrote about being gay for one of my applications and didn't show that to my parents (which was made easier by it being an online application).

There are upsides to coming out early, and so you may want to do it. It has about as much chance to work out well as it will if you wait a few years.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Aaeriele » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:54 am UTC

*hugs animeHrmIne*
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Zeroignite » Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:32 pm UTC

I came out as trans to my uncle last night and everything went better than expected. So that's pretty much my entire family covered.
:)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Aaeriele » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:08 pm UTC

Zeroignite wrote:I came out as trans to my uncle last night and everything went better than expected. So that's pretty much my entire family covered.
:)


^_^
Vaniver wrote:Harvard is a hedge fund that runs the most prestigious dating agency in the world, and incidentally employs famous scientists to do research.

afuzzyduck wrote:ITS MEANT TO BE FLUTTERSHY BUT I JUST SEE AAERIELE! CURSE YOU FORA!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby animeHrmIne » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:43 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:*hugs animeHrmIne*

Thanks. ^_^

And thanks for the advice, Vaniver and sambot. I'm much less worried about it now, honestly. I was just feeling bad that day. I mean, I've kept him from finding out for 5ish years or so, a couple more months won't hurt. Especially since my teachers know not to mention it, and he already knows I'm GSA vice-president.

Honestly, half the time I think my mother or ex-step-mom has already told him. And if that's true, then I'm good. Hopefully. He might start screaming at me when he finds out why I haven't told him (he's really defensive when he's criticized).
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:29 pm UTC

Good news is good! Congrats

Also, I've now secured A's in 4/5 of my classes. I have my last final tonight (Networking II). As long as I don't bomb it, my 4.0 is maintained.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby rath358 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:27 pm UTC

Good luck!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:27 am UTC

102%

All clear

:3
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby NovaNatalia » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:32 am UTC

Congratulations Kilroy ^_^ You're doing wonderfully.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:27 am UTC

Kilroy(ZTC) wrote:102%

All clear

:3

Congrats! :D Awesome!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby DaBigCheez » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:57 pm UTC

Unrelated note: natashatasha, your avatar is adorable :)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:05 pm UTC

Also, I have my court date set for my legal name change hearing. It's on the 30th

Edit: Also yeah, that is the cutest cephalopod.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby XJ_0 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:27 pm UTC

To-day, I had a stressful day...
Spoiler:
I am a trans man, and I am trying to get a hysterectomy.

I have NH Medicaid as insurance... and - >_<;; - this city and this state are very behind in the way they treat transgender people. It's very binary-rigid.

I had to call Medicaid. Surprisingly, I found out that I am listed as male in their records. But, I have to get that marker (which I had seen as a success!) changed back to female in order to potentially be covered for a hysterectomy.

It was very frustrating to be told that, "a hysterectomy is a female surgery. Men can't get hysterectomies just like women can't get vasectomies!" I told them that I disagreed with them.

Now, I am frustrated, sad, and frightened. I hate that I have to play along with this broken system, but I really, really want/need to be covered for this. u_u,,

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby animeHrmIne » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:54 pm UTC

XJ_0 wrote:To-day, I had a stressful day...
Spoiler:
I am a trans man, and I am trying to get a hysterectomy.

I have NH Medicaid as insurance... and - >_<;; - this city and this state are very behind in the way they treat transgender people. It's very binary-rigid.

I had to call Medicaid. Surprisingly, I found out that I am listed as male in their records. But, I have to get that marker (which I had seen as a success!) changed back to female in order to potentially be covered for a hysterectomy.

It was very frustrating to be told that, "a hysterectomy is a female surgery. Men can't get hysterectomies just like women can't get vasectomies!" I told them that I disagreed with them.

Now, I am frustrated, sad, and frightened. I hate that I have to play along with this broken system, but I really, really want/need to be covered for this. u_u,,

Damn. That's bullshit. I'm really sorry. *hugs*
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby apricity » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:32 pm UTC

This is a lovely article about a transgender girl with an identical twin brother. She was/is able to go on puberty-blocking meds and start to transition really young, with the help of a great Boston-based clinic that I'd never heard of before.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Wyvern » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:59 pm UTC

Ah, the gender clinic at the children's hospital. I was referred to there originally but when I contacted them they said I was too old for their program, and they sent me to find fenway instead.

Getting to transition at such a young age: I'm jelly.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:15 am UTC

lanicita wrote:This is a lovely article about a transgender girl with an identical twin brother. She was/is able to go on puberty-blocking meds and start to transition really young, with the help of a great Boston-based clinic that I'd never heard of before.


Pronoun use is inconsistent and it's too conservative (introducing the "opposing perspective" for literally no reason, mentioning the lack of correlation between cross-gender behavior and transgenderism out of context, etc). It's better than 90% of things but ehhh.

Also seconding Wyvern on being jelly. It was interesting to see that this was a conservative family originally. I guess it goes to show that political affiliation doesn't necessarily correlate to transphobia (I mean, admittedly he does admit to changing affiliations, but still).
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:30 am UTC

XJ_0, that is some bullshit. *hugs*

Kilroy(ZTC) wrote:
lanicita wrote:This is a lovely article about a transgender girl with an identical twin brother. She was/is able to go on puberty-blocking meds and start to transition really young, with the help of a great Boston-based clinic that I'd never heard of before.


Pronoun use is inconsistent and it's too conservative (introducing the "opposing perspective" for literally no reason, mentioning the lack of correlation between cross-gender behavior and transgenderism out of context, etc). It's better than 90% of things but ehhh.

Also seconding Wyvern on being jelly. It was interesting to see that this was a conservative family originally. I guess it goes to show that political affiliation doesn't necessarily correlate to transphobia (I mean, admittedly he does admit to changing affiliations, but still).


The pronouns bugged me too, but I'm glad it was posted. It's really nice to read things like that.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:32 am UTC

So, I've been reading a lot of MLP fanfic lately, and thought this might be relevant to the interests of some here.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Triss Hawkeye » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:42 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:So, I've been reading a lot of MLP fanfic lately, and thought this might be relevant to the interests of some here.


That is so sweet! :D

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Aaeriele » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:55 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:So, I've been reading a lot of MLP fanfic lately, and thought this might be relevant to the interests of some here.


Different but similar:

Spoiler:
Image
Vaniver wrote:Harvard is a hedge fund that runs the most prestigious dating agency in the world, and incidentally employs famous scientists to do research.

afuzzyduck wrote:ITS MEANT TO BE FLUTTERSHY BUT I JUST SEE AAERIELE! CURSE YOU FORA!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby drash » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:33 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:So, I've been reading a lot of MLP fanfic lately, and thought this might be relevant to the interests of some here.

Superb example of the genre. :)

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby sambot5 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:07 pm UTC

MIT EA decisions come out on Saturday and the rest of my college apps are due in ~2 weeks, so I've been really anxious lately. However, I saw this video today, and it made me so happy :D :

http://youtu.be/vS9H3vc49kY
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Whelan » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:39 am UTC

Who wants to learn some 100% true facts about queers?

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:00 pm UTC

FACT: Genderfluid people determine their gender identity by what they drink at breakfast.

If they drink orange juice, they feel feminine; if they drink milk, they feel masculine. But if they drink tap water or skip breakfast, then they feel completely agender for the day.

:D

FACT: The sexual fluids of genderqueers can cure all diseases known to human kind.

:D :D
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Triss Hawkeye » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:34 pm UTC

FACT: Transmen are born with 3 hearts which makes them superhuman, but they are deemed too powerful to continue existing that way and thus they must have surgery to remove 2 of them resulting in double scars.
They are impervious to bullets where the scars remain.


This one made me giggle. :D

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:08 pm UTC

Last month I was at a work-related tech conference with all my team mates. All men.

We got a new team member and met him there first. We sit around a table, everybody introduces himself. How long he has been with the company, previous experience, each of them has a wife and 1 to 5 kids. It's my turn nearly at the end. While the others are introducing, I think about: Should I say "I have a husband and a girlfriend"? (Not quite precise, but I am not going to complicate things with "1 husband, 1 girlfriend, 1 kinda-girlfriend-with-maybe-benefits".) But then when it is my turn I only say "I have a husband". *sigh*


Completely different issue, later at the same conference. Two of my team mates sit with me, they are talking in their native language that I do not understand. They seem to be talking about stuff around as, as they gesticulate a bit. Suddenly they interrupt and say I need to explain something because I am a woman. And the thing I need to explain is why women wear short skirts. Do I look like I would know why some women wear short skirts? I guess they just like them. So I say: "Uuuh..." They add: "It's because they want men to stare at them." Wait what? While I can't pin down why exactly other women wear short skirts, I am pretty certain that's not it, at least for most of them. I tell them that they don't want that. They don't believe me. "If they didn't want men to stare at them, they wouldn't wear short skirts" and point at another woman with a suit. "My wife doesn't wear skirts like that" (pointing at a woman in a business miniskirt). Hmpf! :evil:
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Virtual_Aardvark » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:18 pm UTC

I find short skirts comfortable in hot weather, practical with shorts underneath, feminine without being stuffy, fashionably versatile and they make my legs look longer (I'm 4'11"). When coupled with my super short hair and the right boots and makeup they help signal other queer women that "Hey! I'm over here". When coupled with the right pumps and makeup they help make clear to men that despite my short hair I'm not just into the ladies.* When I see myself in the mirror I feel like I'm attractive and sexy. That's not for anyone else, I just like feeling pretty for prettys sake. When I'm with my boy, a short skirt and the right underwear makes "playtime" a lot more fun.


*Seriously, queer fashion is the best.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:56 am UTC

Controversial opinion:
Spoiler:
Virtual_Aardvark wrote:When I see myself in the mirror I feel like I'm attractive and sexy. That's not for anyone else, I just like feeling pretty for prettys sake.
This always struck me as a contradiction in terms. "Attractive," "sexy," and "pretty" all require a beholder- you aren't dressing to attract the attention of birds or bees or bears or trout. You're dressing to attract the attention of people, generally the people you're into. Pretty is just a shorthand for "raises my disposition" or "will raise the disposition of those I care about." Along those lines, feeling pretty for pretty's sake seems like earning money for money's sake: a useful heuristic but not a firm foundation.

So people should expect looking attractive to attract attention, and it seems fair to guess that's the point of dressing attractively. Now, it may be that one is forced to attract the attention of uninteresting people to attract the attention of interesting people- and if one is in an insulting mood they might retort something along the lines of "I expect a lady wearing a skirt like that would only be interested in a man who knows not to stare." (Though they shouldn't expect it to be always true; I am sure some enjoy stares.)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Virtual_Aardvark » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:50 am UTC

I generally approach it as "If someone wants to look that's fine. Just don't be creepy, don't touch and don't act like I owe you something just cause you can see my legs." I like fashion, I like my body and I think adding the two together is pretty awesome. I get that I may attract attention, but really, this isn't for you.

Dressing sexy doesn't necessarily mean I'm trying to attract. Or maybe I'm trying to attract my boy and can only get there by bus. Or maybe I'm hoping that cute guy with the muscles is attracted as opposed to the dumpy one with the glasses. Or maybe I like the dumpy one's glasses. This is really just an extension of slut shaming. People who think that a girl in a short skirt has no say on who's attention she gets are often the same ones who think a slut doesn't have the right to choose who she fucks.

The scenario that Monika put out shows a very paternalistic sense of ownership or entitlement in the men she was speaking to. This is wrong. Appreciating a bit of skin isn't.

http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2010/02/gentlemans-guide-to-ogling.html
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:50 am UTC

@Vaniver

You seem to forget that self image is a thing, and one which is influenced by preconceptions and culture, and the symbols associated with either. A person can be their own beholder. If you completely ignore that then yeah, it seems obvious that every action has an external focus. That kind of thinking becomes absurd though when you consider any number of actions which have a utilitarian purpose, but nonetheless in practice are often undertaken for other reasons. For instance, bathing is ostensibly about remaining clean, but sometimes people do it to feel nice, or because it makes them feel civilized. This is true even if they're not leaving the house on a given day and thus have no external focus to their actions. On your example of money for money's sake: what's inherently paradoxical or superficial about this? I'd say the phrasing itself is a straw man. People pursue money vivaciously because it confers feelings of power or prestige, or even security. In a certain sense these feelings correspond to an actual tangible benefit, and therefore to an external focal point for their actions, but to a degree they're still self-directed. This is clear when you consider that there are clear diminishing returns in the actual tangible benefits of money; a millionaire who aspires to become a billionaire is not gaining any additional security, and probably not any additional prestige; but the motive may still well be in place as a driving force, as a person's self-image is synthesized through the associations they make (faulty or otherwise) with money. IE, if a person associates security with money, they will perceive the accumulation of money as pragmatic, as a sign of rational self-interest etc; these are personal attributes, so in this way it's clear that a person can be taking an action in order to establish a sense of self, even when that action traditionally has some other function.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:59 am UTC

Virtual_Aardvark: Agreed. I suspect responding to a claim like "it's because they want men to stare at them" with a question like "which men?" is one of the more productive responses.

Brace wrote:You seem to forget that self image is a thing
Nah, it's in there. Self-quote as well as clarification:
Spoiler:
Vaniver wrote:Pretty is just a shorthand for "raises my disposition"
I should be clear that my objection is more to "I want to feel sexy for myself" rather than "I want to like what I see in the mirror." The second could be because I look at what I see and think "what a handsome guy!" but it could also just be familiarity, appreciation of symmetry, or association of my face with my actions / thoughts. The first seems odd because I think a clearer statement of it is "I want to arouse others for myself"- it can be consistent, but requires a contortion or two.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Virtual_Aardvark » Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:55 am UTC

I think the confusion here is over who means what by "sexy". It always seems to boil down to semantics doesn't it?

For me, my sexuality is a huge part of my identity so I tend to feel more aesthetically put together when I feel as if I could be sexual. My lovers are fairly spontaneous so this is a logistical consideration as well. You may also find my definition of sexy to be a tad different. This can mean baggy jeans and nice boxers as readily as a mini. A lot of people take sexy as an invitation, I'm trying to change that. It wouldn't be outlandish for me to say I like to feel put together so I wear X.

I like to feel sexy so I wear what makes me feel that way.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby NovaNatalia » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:25 am UTC

This is going to sound pathetic, but I was having a lot of fun RPing as my (female) self with a friend online, and we were having a great deal of fun. It was really immersive, and only when it ended that I realised that I wasn't physically female and I just burst into tears.
And I was crying all day.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:06 am UTC

*hugs natashatasha tightly*
This does not sound pathetic. It sounds like a very understandable reaction.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PictureSarah » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:54 pm UTC

I totally agreed with *almost* every piece of the Pervocracy blog, except for:

Personally I don't think even tapping someone on the shoulder without their permission is ever okay


I have done this, and had people do this to me, to let each other know that "Hey, you dropped your scarf/subway pass/some money fell out of your pocket/do you have the time?/I really like your boots," and I think that's ok. It has startled me a bit sometimes, but it's always been done with good intentions, some of which I was really, very grateful for (money and monthly subway pass!). I'm wondering what the author would advise doing instead of tapping someone on the shoulder in an instance like one of these. Try to move in front of them and make eye contact first?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:55 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Vaniver wrote:The first seems odd because I think a clearer statement of it is "I want to arouse others for myself"


Or it means "I consider the aesthetic commonly thought by my culture to represent beauty to represent beauty, think beauty is valuable or significant in some way, and therefore pursue this aesthetic as an act of self-affirmation".

I think a lot is made opaque by the correspondence of the subject's definition of beauty with societies. Consider what Virtual-Ardvark is saying about feeling sexy in baggy jeans and boxers. Are baggy jeans and boxers ever considered "asking for it"? No, of course not. Yet Ardvark still reports drawing some feeling of significance from the aesthetic. So what's so different about drawing a feeling from a more culturally loaded aesthetic? Honestly, the suggestion that something as simple as clothing can't be for self-gratification, and has to be about attracting attention, strikes me as supremely arrogant. Whenever I hear anyone say that anything is just about getting attention (an accusation leveled at clothing as well as *cough* sexualities, identities, and non-majority cultures), I get the impression they think the world revolves around them. I don't really appreciate you playing at being Wittgenstein (poorly) to construct an apology for a perspective which has motivated rape. You're trying to demonstrate that an idea is semantically incoherent, yet really you've only demonstrated that you refuse to interpret the proposition in a clear and credible way. There are a dozen ways one could interpret the statement "I want to feel sexy", yet you are only addressing one; the one which makes the statement easy to knock down. "Contortion" is not an argument against other interpretations, by the way. You can't take Occam's Razor to English (or for that matter any natural language). It's not a language like math or logic. Contortions are a fundamental part of its use in any real-world context.


*hugs for natashatasha*
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:18 pm UTC

natashatasha: hugs if you would like them.
Continuation of the conversation:
Spoiler:
Brace wrote:I don't really appreciate you playing at being Wittgenstein (poorly) to construct an apology for a perspective which has motivated rape.
My intention is not to construct an apology for any particular perspective; my intention is to uncover deeper understanding. Indeed, such an understanding typically shifts perspectives- you'll notice every post I've made on this issue so far has included something one could say to bring the individual woman's agency and desires in to the conversation. The first moves in the direction of "good staring vs. bad staring," though one would want to use a friendlier wording of it. I suspect for most men who haven't thought much about this issue, 'staring' (in the context of a pretty woman) is a neutral or positive term rather than a negative one, and so differentiating it out into types can be helpful. The second moves in the direction of "targets vs. bystanders"- just because you think she looks nice doesn't mean she cares what you think.

Contemplating it might also shift your understanding of 'just' or 'only', which are the most important words in a sentence like "I just want to look sexy."

Brace wrote:There are a dozen ways one could interpret the statement "I want to feel sexy", yet you are only addressing one; the one which makes the statement easy to knock down.
Which way do you think the men who prompted this conversation will interpret it? Probe your arguments at their weakest spots, not their strongest ones.
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