Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Zarq » Thu May 17, 2012 4:50 pm UTC

What about students who don't have a car nor the money to pay for a taxi every time?
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby bigglesworth » Thu May 17, 2012 4:56 pm UTC

I was going to post about how it's probably worse in the US than EU countries due to the US reliance on vehicles, but apparently the problem is worst in New Zealand. http://adc.bmj.com/content/68/2/190.full.pdf
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby SecondTalon » Thu May 17, 2012 5:20 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:What about students who don't have a car nor the money to pay for a taxi every time?

Find a closer bar.

Invite people over and drink at home. (Cheaper too)

It's one of those things - if you don't have a vehicle nor money (so even if you had a vehicle, no gas anyway) ... why are you going out to a bar? I'm not saying don't go out and have fun, I'm saying find something that doesn't slam your wallet.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Роберт » Thu May 17, 2012 5:22 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Zarq wrote:What about students who don't have a car nor the money to pay for a taxi every time?

Invite people over and drink at home. (Cheaper too)

^ This. Safer, cheaper.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Zarq » Thu May 17, 2012 5:25 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Zarq wrote:What about students who don't have a car nor the money to pay for a taxi every time?

Find a closer bar.

Invite people over and drink at home. (Cheaper too)

It's one of those things - if you don't have a vehicle nor money (so even if you had a vehicle, no gas anyway) ... why are you going out to a bar? I'm not saying don't go out and have fun, I'm saying find something that doesn't slam your wallet.


How does the first one fix the problem? You're not supposed to walk. And how do you meet new people at home?
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby bigglesworth » Thu May 17, 2012 5:27 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Find a closer bar.
Eh?
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Chen » Thu May 17, 2012 5:28 pm UTC

I assure you there would be TONS of lawsuits if any advertising ever proposed that walking drunk is worse for you than driving drunk. That's tantamount to encouraging drunk driving even if you make the ad say something like "Don't do either, take a cab" or whatever. People are inherently selfish. You start telling them they're 8 times more likely to be hurt walking drunk than driving drunk and people are going to draw the incorrect conclusions.

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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Angua » Thu May 17, 2012 5:29 pm UTC

Also, is everyone going to crash at your place if you're drinking at home?
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby SecondTalon » Thu May 17, 2012 5:34 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:How does the first one fix the problem? You're not supposed to walk. And how do you meet new people at home?
Because it's a matter of time spent walking. Walking two steps while drunk has a low probability of injury. If it had the same probability of injury as a 10 minute walk, bars would be required by law to strap patrons into their chairs until they wanted to leave, then transport them via wheelchair to a taxi.

So walking a block or so is dangerous, but not overly so. Walking 10 blocks is a bad idea, and you should probably take a taxi. Walking 4 blocks, taking a subway, walking another block then taking a bus to then walk three more blocks is just asking to end up lost, and tripping or otherwise injuring yourself (or others) in your journey.

That's pretty much everything with drinking - it's rarely a matter of a one-off instance - a block walk, a 30 second drive.. rarely dangerous while drunk to either yourself or others.

But do it for 10, 15 minutes and the chances for your attention to wander, your reactions to not be fast enough and so on - you're far more likely to cause damage to yourself or others while drunk.

As for meeting people.... man, is it just me, or are bars one of the worst ways to meet people that people use to meet people? They're loud so you can't hear anyone, and you can't tell "People wanting to meet people" from "People just wanting to be with their friends" or even "People who want to be left the fuck alone and enjoy their drink in peace because goddamn it, just because they don't want to talk to anyone doesn't mean they don't want to peoplewatch for a bit"
bigglesworth wrote:
SexyTalon wrote:Find a closer bar.
Eh?
I'm sorry, lemme fix that.

Find a closer pub.

That work?

Angua wrote:Also, is everyone going to crash at your place if you're drinking at home?

Depends on how many people there are and what their plans are. But sure? If you've got a floor, you've got places for drunk people to sleep. Otherwise, just cycle houses and use that money you would have spent at a bar on a taxi back to your place.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Zarq » Thu May 17, 2012 5:38 pm UTC

Fair enough. But how would one go about finding a close bar when your friends live some kilometers away from you. One of my friends lives about 2km away from me, so the closest we can get is 1km for each (ignoring the fact there absolutely aren't any bars around there).

SecondTalon wrote:As for meeting people.... man, is it just me, or are bars one of the worst ways to meet people that people use to meet people? They're loud so you can't hear anyone, and you can't tell "People wanting to meet people" from "People just wanting to be with their friends" or even "People who want to be left the fuck alone and enjoy their drink in peace because goddamn it, just because they don't want to talk to anyone doesn't mean they don't want to peoplewatch for a bit"


The bars I go to aren't very loud. And it's still better than to stay at home. And what about people who like clubs and dancing?
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby bigglesworth » Thu May 17, 2012 5:42 pm UTC

We have bars here too :lol:

I kinda agree with both ST and Zarq - pubs and bars aren't good for meeting random new people, but given that they are places where people congregate, they can be good - e.g. you go with your friends, meet a friend that you hadn't planned to meet, meet their friends, perhaps split groups off...
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Роберт » Thu May 17, 2012 5:47 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:Fair enough. But how would one go about finding a close bar when your friends live some kilometers away from you. One of my friends lives about 2km away from me, so the closest we can get is 1km for each (ignoring the fact there absolutely aren't any bars around there).

SexyTalon wrote:As for meeting people.... man, is it just me, or are bars one of the worst ways to meet people that people use to meet people? They're loud so you can't hear anyone, and you can't tell "People wanting to meet people" from "People just wanting to be with their friends" or even "People who want to be left the fuck alone and enjoy their drink in peace because goddamn it, just because they don't want to talk to anyone doesn't mean they don't want to peoplewatch for a bit"


The bars I go to aren't very loud. And it's still better than to stay at home. And what about people who like clubs and dancing?

If you're too poor to do it safely as often as you'd like, maybe you should do it a bit less often and more safely?
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Kewangji » Thu May 17, 2012 5:48 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
folkhero wrote:So deceiving your customers into engaging in behavior that may well kill them is not douchebaggery these days?


If the alternative is for them to harm others instead of just themselves? Yeah I'm ok with that.

…the other alternative is "not harming anyone".
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Zarq » Thu May 17, 2012 6:04 pm UTC

I looked up some taxi prices. So I should spend more on transportation than on drinking? I'm also absolutely confident I'm being safe. I don't drink until I black out. I can still walk in a straight line and form grammatically correct sentences. In the time I wait for a car to pass before I cross the road I would be able to cross it 3-4 times.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby folkhero » Thu May 17, 2012 7:12 pm UTC

If you must go to a bar and you can't afford a taxi, you can always designate a fucking driver. I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet because 95% of the time I went to a bar in my collage years we would designate a driver beforehand, rotating through the group of friends. We would usually go to a place that had good food and the drinkers would treat the DD to a meal, then we would go to a place with suffleboard or pool so that there was something to do other than drink.
Zarq wrote:I looked up some taxi prices. So I should spend more on transportation than on drinking? I'm also absolutely confident I'm being safe. I don't drink until I black out. I can still walk in a straight line and form grammatically correct sentences. In the time I wait for a car to pass before I cross the road I would be able to cross it 3-4 times.
Do what you want, it's your own safety. Just remember that all those drunk drivers on the road are pretty sure that they are being safe. Also remember that once you start drinking you can easily lose track of how impaired you really are.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Роберт » Thu May 17, 2012 7:21 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:I looked up some taxi prices. So I should spend more on transportation than on drinking? I'm also absolutely confident I'm being safe. I don't drink until I black out. I can still walk in a straight line and form grammatically correct sentences. In the time I wait for a car to pass before I cross the road I would be able to cross it 3-4 times.

Just make sure you're keeping in mind that your judgement is impaired so be very conservative and I think you'll be fine. Although I could probably say that about driving, if it weren't for the drunk driving laws.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Zarq » Thu May 17, 2012 7:27 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:If you must go to a bar and you can't afford a taxi, you can always designate a fucking driver. I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet because 95% of the time I went to a bar in my collage years we would designate a driver beforehand, rotating through the group of friends. We would usually go to a place that had good food and the drinkers would treat the DD to a meal, then we would go to a place with suffleboard or pool so that there was something to do other than drink.


Neither I nor my friends have a car or a drivers license.

@Robert:
That's what I think. But I don't agree about the driving. There's more to it than just judgment. There's also reflexes. Reflexes are very important when driving, but pretty negligible when walking.
Last edited by Zarq on Thu May 17, 2012 7:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Роберт » Thu May 17, 2012 7:31 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:
@Robert:
That's what I think. But I don't agree about the driving. There's more to it than just judgment. There's also reflexes. Reflexes are very important when driving, but pretty negligible when walking.

Well, if you're only driving ~20 mph, you wouldn't need THAT fast reflexes.

Anyway, the point is that walking home is probably more dangerous than driving home. Be careful.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby pizzazz » Thu May 31, 2012 6:39 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Zarq wrote:
@Robert:
That's what I think. But I don't agree about the driving. There's more to it than just judgment. There's also reflexes. Reflexes are very important when driving, but pretty negligible when walking.

Well, if you're only driving ~20 mph, you wouldn't need THAT fast reflexes.

Anyway, the point is that walking home is probably more dangerous than driving home. Be careful.


That's exactly the excuse drunk drivers use all the time. Have you ever driven while other people are driving drunk around you? It's fucking scary, no matter the speed. If you're only capable of driving at 20mph (5 miles under the speed limit on the darkest, windiest roads I know), then you're not capable of driving.
Also, driving too slowly is dangerous too.

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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby RebeccaRGB » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:03 am UTC

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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby marcel » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:35 am UTC

Deva wrote:Refers to a Freakonomics article, most likely.
LEVITT: For every mile walked drunk, turns out to be eight times more dangerous than the mile driven drunk. To put it simply, if you need to walk a mile from a party to your home, you’re eight times more likely to die doing that than if you jump behind the wheel and drive your car that same mile.

Levitt is not advocating that people drive drunk instead — but rather that we look harder at the numbers behind drunk walking. In 2009, the most recent year for which we have data, about 34,000 people died in traffic accidents. Roughly half of them were drivers — 41 percent of whom were drunk. There were more than 4,000 pedestrians killed — and 35 percent of them were drunk. Of course, a drunk walker can’t hurt or kill someone else the way a drunk driver can, and people drive drunk much farther distances than they’d walk drunk.

Note the distinction of "per mile".

There is too much information mssing to conclude that drunk walking is more dangerous then drunk driving.

1. There is nothing in the article about people getting killed by or due to drunk pedestrians vs. drunk drivers, a statistic that I believe is far more important, since I consider killing others much worse then killing yourself.
2. There is no information in here about injuries, only deaths, both to drunk persons themselves and to others.

If you also have this information, I would actually be surprised if you would still find that drunk walking is more dangerous then drunk driving.



Another thing I notice in the responses is the Americanism. Over here, it would be very surprising if a group of college students is going to a bar, if one of them actually owns a car, and many of them will not even have a drivers license, so the option of driving often does not even exist. (Just like it does not exists for people under 18 who have been drinking, since you can drink at 16, and get a drivers license at 18 here.)

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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby DaBigCheez » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:20 pm UTC

Things I still hate: Traffic noises in commercials played over the radio. Especially "car honking" (commercial for some car dealership), "train horn" (Sleep Train mattersses) and traffic accident sounds (Allstate Insurance, as I recall), that last one also being loaded with appeal to emotion/fear. At least the drunk-driving PSAs generally manage to avoid using actual siren sounds...
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby phlip » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:34 am UTC

So, apparently Evony has competition. Less subtle competition.

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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby ConMan » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:52 am UTC

phlip wrote:So, apparently Evony has competition. Less subtle competition.

H-how is this possible? And can anyone be so dumb as to fall for that?*






* Probably. But surely not enough for them to be profitable, right? Actually, probably. I weep for humanity.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby The Scyphozoa » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:18 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure most people who click on that are 11-14 year old boys.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby bluejello » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:06 pm UTC

Recently, I have been seeing commercials that I have seen years ago, and they are the exact same or close enough for them to appear the exact same. One is chip home income(which is NOW part of home equity bank)... Apparently now means a span of time over several years.
(for those who do not know what this is, it is a "free money" scheme, where you trade in some equity on your home for "tax free cash". goes on for a long time and repeats itself. You don't pay until you decide to move or sell... sound fine so far, but then they say something about low rates.)
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:59 pm UTC

phlip wrote:So, apparently Evony has competition. Less subtle competition.


What if I don't want an orgy?

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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:01 pm UTC

phlip wrote:So, apparently Evony has competition. Less subtle competition.
Actually, IIRC for a while Evony was just using straight-up (heh) softcore bikini pictures, not art.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby folkhero » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:07 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
phlip wrote:So, apparently Evony has competition. Less subtle competition.


What if I don't want an orgy?

Are you saying that any orgy is the sexual encounter you deserve, just not the sexual encounter you need right now?
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby The Scyphozoa » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:21 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
phlip wrote:So, apparently Evony has competition. Less subtle competition.


What if I don't want an orgy?

Are you saying that any orgy is the sexual encounter you deserve, just not the sexual encounter you need right now?

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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Noc » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:39 am UTC

Verizon: It doesn't matter how you present it except YES IT DOES BECAUSE THAT'S A UNITLESS GRAPH IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING ARGHGARBLE.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Deva » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:52 am UTC

United States markets with Fourth Generation Long Term Evolution coverage. Appears to be widespread.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:58 am UTC

Yeah, I don't see any real problems with the graphs (they even started them at zero!), though whether or not it's a useful metric is a different story.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby bluebambue » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:01 am UTC

Well the numbers could be representing a useful metric raised to some power. That would magnify small differences into the large ones seen (though regardless, verizon would be ahead).

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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:38 am UTC

They could be using a metric in which the market share is dimensionless. In that case lacking a unit would be correct (but there should be reference to the metric used somewhere).
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby phlip » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:07 pm UTC

They seem to be implying a simple count of "markets", whatever that implies. I'm not entirely sure how you define dividing coverage area into distinct "markets"... separate towns maybe? But surely there's more than a few hundred towns across the US within their coverage areas... and whatever they're using, it's almost certainly a terrible measure of actual coverage, since even if it's not the "towns" guess, it's still likely the case that separate markets aren't all the same size... so it's not really an apples-with-apples comparison. Plus, of course, it's completely tunnel-visioned on one single factor, when there are many others that one needs to consider, like price, reliability, or the ability of your support staff to perform basic arithmetic.

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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:30 pm UTC

Markets are a fairly common unit for such things - generally, they refer to a local dialing area (ie, the area in which calls remain local and not long distance), though the level of coverage in a market for it to count is up for grabs. There's only a few hundred because a) that can lump a good number of towns together in places and b) they're talking specifically about LTE and not cell coverage in general. Which really is a little silly, because it's not like there are LTE-only phones now or for the foreseeable future.

Nor is "markets" actually a very useful metric - most people really only care about one or maybe two markets (generally, the one they live in), and it says absolutely nothing about the quality of the service in those areas. I suppose it might be worth knowing if you were going to invest in the company, but for a user something like a call completion or dropped call percentage is a lot more useful (they're both easy to understand and reasonably reliable indicators of network congestion).
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby Adacore » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:50 am UTC

I would suspect one of two things happened - either they looked at a whole load of stats and decided that Verizon looked best compared to the competition when they used 'markets' as the metric, or roll out in X 'markets' was a project objective/milestone/whatever, and the LTE team at Verizon automatically goes to that as a metric because it's what they've been working towards.

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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby folkhero » Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:01 am UTC

In my (admittedly limited) experience, Verizon tends to have the best coverage in smaller cities and towns. It would makes sense that they have X-level coverage in more markets than their competitors. Although, from what I understand, terms like 4G don't have a strict definition and companies can more or less make up their own definitions that make themselves look good. It could be that they set the definition of 4G NCIS (or whatever) to be just a little bit faster than what their competitors have most places and just under what their networks can provide.
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Re: Logical fallacies/douchebaggery in commercials.

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:14 pm UTC

4G had a strict definition. There's just no penalty for making shit up, not when you can say "It meets Verizon's standards internally for 4G and is theoretically possible to meet 4G standards, maybe. With a tailwind."
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