Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

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Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Whys » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:30 am UTC

When spoken, why don't the teens work the same as the rest of our counting system?

I would like to propose the following spoken counting system to replace our erratic 11 thru 19 sequence. Instead of, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fifteen, and {number}teen, I propose, teen-{number}, ie: teen-one, teen-two, teen-three, teen-four, teen-five, teen-six, teen-seven, teen-eight, teen-nine. This will end a great deal of needless confusion for small children first learning to count.

Thank you. :)

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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:39 am UTC

better yet

tenone, tentwo, tenthree, tenfour, tenfive etc.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Thesh » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:43 am UTC

It should be "ten-one, ten-two, ..., ten-nine" to keep in line with "twenty-one, twenty-two, ..., twenty-nine"
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Whys » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:52 am UTC

I agree! It's settled then.

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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Gopher of Pern » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:57 am UTC

No!

Ten-one sounds like 101. Ten-two sounds like 102. That would be confusing.

I propose we teach all kids binary. That way, all you ever do is count off ones and zeros. Simple is best!!
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby phlip » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:58 am UTC

But few people get confused between "twenty-one" and 201...

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enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Gopher of Pern » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:05 am UTC

My post was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

I would actually propose it be called tenty-one, tenty-two. And replace ten with tenty.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:06 am UTC

Wouldn't it be Onety-one, onety-two, onety-three.. ? I mean, Thirty aside, the rest of them are essentially Single-Digit Name with Ty thrown on the end.


And Tenty sounds too much like Twenty.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Thesh » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:11 am UTC

tenty looks a lot like twenty, but onety sounds too much like twenty.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:37 am UTC

Thesh wrote:It should be "ten-one, ten-two, ..., ten-nine" to keep in line with "twenty-one, twenty-two, ..., twenty-nine"


On second thought, perhaps teen-one, teen-two, teen-three
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Thesh » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:42 am UTC

Just throwing it out there, maybe we should give each and every number a unique name. For example, instead of saying "thirty-nine trillion one-hundred and seventy-two billion eight-hundred and forty million eleven thousand six-hundred and ninety-two" you could simply say "nuckack".
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Princess Marzipan » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:22 am UTC

I'mma just slap that one down to the ground if you don't mind.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Zohar » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:30 am UTC

I know it sounds strange at first, but think how useful it will be when we get to the really big numbers!
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Thesh » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:32 am UTC

Think about the largest known prime, which I simply call "bob". The decimal representation has over 12 million digits, In this sense, my system wins.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Midnight » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:18 am UTC

Which brings me to my sixth point: Why do mathy peeps care about primes so much?
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Thesh » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:22 am UTC

Midnight wrote:Which brings me to my sixth point: Why do mathy peeps care about primes so much?


Public Key Cryptography? That's the only use I have ever come across.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby GhostWolfe » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:10 am UTC

Thesh wrote:tenty looks a lot like twenty, but onety sounds too much like twenty.

Teenty?

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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Like The Wind » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:48 am UTC

GhostWolfe wrote:
Thesh wrote:tenty looks a lot like twenty, but onety sounds too much like twenty.

Teenty?

/angell


TNT? You shouldn't let kids near that stuff!

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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Plasma Man » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:30 am UTC

Thesh wrote:It should be "ten-one, ten-two, ..., ten-nine" to keep in line with "twenty-one, twenty-two, ..., twenty-nine"
I give this idea a big ten-four.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Thesh » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:31 am UTC

What does 14 have to do with anything?
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Von Haus » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:30 pm UTC

I like the ten-one, ten-two idea purely as it would allow me to refer to 9:48 as "ten-two to ten". It's like two to two all over again! :D
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Mumpy » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

But if you wait 2 minutes it becomes cowboy time, which is a whole other level of crap pun.

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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Xeio » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:59 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Think about the largest known prime, which I simply call "bob". The decimal representation has over 12 million digits, In this sense, my system wins.
Yea, but I can only remember up to about zeehroben and then I have no idea what the next number is called.

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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby masher » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:01 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:Which brings me to my sixth point: Why do mathy peeps care about primes so much?


Because you can make every number out of primes? (cf Goldbach's conjecture)

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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby RebeccaRGB » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:20 pm UTC

I can make every number out of nothing.

0 = Nothing
1 = 00
2 = 1+1
3 = 2+1
4 = 3+1
etc.
π = 4 tan-1 1
i = √-1
e = (-1)1/(iπ)
etc.

Bam, every number out of nothing.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:57 am UTC

RebeccaRGB wrote:1 = 00 [citation needed]


As 00=0-10=0/0, which looks like 1 but can have all sorts of values depending on from which direction you take the limit.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby phlip » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:23 am UTC

00 is an indeterminate form if you're taking a limit, but as an actual value (not a limit) it's typically defined as 1. It's not continuous, but it's defined. See also Wikipedia.

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enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby bloatyspizzahog » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:36 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Wouldn't it be Onety-one, onety-two, onety-three.. ? I mean, Thirty aside, the rest of them are essentially Single-Digit Name with Ty thrown on the end.


And Tenty sounds too much like Twenty.


I think we're making serious progress here. it at least has my vote for awesomest thread. Keep up the good work.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby eternauta3k » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:42 am UTC

Thesh wrote:
Midnight wrote:Which brings me to my sixth point: Why do mathy peeps care about primes so much?


Public Key Cryptography? That's the only use I have ever come across.

They are also a good way to get funds to research quantum computing.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:04 am UTC

Primes are appealing because we have no surefire way of generating them (other than glorified trial and error), which makes them a mystery. And mysteries are hard to resist.

Additionally, they are simple to understand, which means primes are a mystery that taunt many people.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Gopher of Pern » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:23 am UTC

bloatyspizzahog wrote:
SexyTalon wrote:Wouldn't it be Onety-one, onety-two, onety-three.. ? I mean, Thirty aside, the rest of them are essentially Single-Digit Name with Ty thrown on the end.


And Tenty sounds too much like Twenty.


I think we're making serious progress here. it at least has my vote for awesomest thread. Keep up the good work.


So, we should count like this:
One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven, Eight, Nine, Ten,
Onetyone, Onetytwo, Onetythree...

I also propose we rename twenty, thirty and fifty to twoty, threety and fivety. And one hundred to tenty. so 123 would be Tenty-twoty-three, and 485 would be four-tenty-eighty-five.

And while we're at it, lets rename seven. Stupid 2 syllable number.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Goldstein » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:11 pm UTC

I remember another pupil many years ago at the beginning of school insisting that "a hundred" followed "ninety nine" but "one hundred" followed "a hundred and ninety nine". Even then, I just couldn't comprehend what sort of ideas would bring you to that conclusion.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby tastelikecoke » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:57 pm UTC

And while we're at it, lets rename seven. Stupid 2 syllable number.
Many languages have seven as a two-syllable word. Using google translate, there are a few one-syllable ones.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:09 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Think about the largest known prime, which I simply call "bob". The decimal representation has over 12 million digits, In this sense, my system wins.

Or, I could just call your bob "the largest known prime".

That wins for being far more informative for just a few extra letters.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Kizyr » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:41 pm UTC

Plasma Man wrote:
Thesh wrote:It should be "ten-one, ten-two, ..., ten-nine" to keep in line with "twenty-one, twenty-two, ..., twenty-nine"
I give this idea a big ten-four.

Dangit, someone beat me to the pun.

English numbers aren't so bad. There's at least a generally easy-to-get system there, and the odd ones out are a bit easier to say and discern (eleven/twelve instead of oneteen/twoteen). Same deal with Spanish.

There're some others that just seem unnecessarily complex. French for instance (quatre-vingts / quatre-vingt-dix? really? there's no easier way to say eighty/ninety?)*. Bangla also has irregular naming conventions for all numbers up to 100. KF

* Ok Wiktionary is telling me that 'octante' and 'nonante' are used in a few places.
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Deep_Thought » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:48 pm UTC

Kizyr wrote:There're some others that just seem unnecessarily complex. French for instance (quatre-vingts / quatre-vingt-dix? really? there's no easier way to say eighty/ninety?)*. Bangla also has irregular naming conventions for all numbers up to 100. KF

* Ok Wiktionary is telling me that 'octante' and 'nonante' are used in a few places.

I was told by my French teacher, who was French, that you can blame the quatre-vingt oddity on Napoleon, but I can't find a link to back that up...

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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Yakk » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:06 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:Which brings me to my sixth point: Why do mathy peeps care about primes so much?

Primes are the multiplicative structure of the natural numbers.

In some senses, the natural numbers are the foundation of all multiplicative structures.

The fact that they interact strangely with the additive structure of the natural numbers, and hence the foundation of ring structures, is also interesting.

Structure is interesting, because structure is the kind of thing you need to do things like express the laws of physics in elegant ways.

It is the finding of structure that led to the scientific revolution, which is the foundation of modern western societies economy. Societies that supported the scientific revolution came out on top of the first and second industrial revolutions -- those that did not fell behind. Thus, the winners of the last rounds of "world domination" where those that decided that supporting structure-finding game players to go off and find structures and patterns in the universe was a good idea for whatever reason, and those societies dominated (and still dominate) the world economy. Presuming that the past is some prediction for the future, people are trained and rewarded to play with patterns.

Each prime is a fundamental note in the harmonics of the integers. Our knowledge about how they are distributed is relatively rudimentary, as we cannot answer relatively simple questions about them (are there infinite prime pairs? No clue!). Some interesting questions (to compulsive pattern finders) have been answered, and their answers (to compulsive pattern finders) are really beautiful. Some hope that further interesting questions will have beautiful answers.

Because the primes are fundamental notes, if you can find things about those notes, you can answer questions about basically every sound. So this makes things easier.

The generalization of the idea of primes (and factoring) ends up existing outside of the natural numbers in a term called "ideals" (and, in particular, prime ideals). This then goes a bit sideways, reaching physically useful things like Lie algebras. Similar things end up being important in group theory (where primes remain somewhat important), and really strange things pop out of that corner of mathematics (the Monster Group and the Monsterous Moonshine Conjecture connecting the largest finite simple group to (some) string theories).

If you glance up at the Monster Group, you'll note that things where proven about it presuming "The calculation was based on the assumption that the minimal degree of a faithful complex representation is 196883, which is the product of the 3 largest prime divisors of the order of M." (order of M is the size -- number of elements in it)

So the string theory in question turns out to be useful for physics, then there is a crazy path between prime numbers and the rules that make the universe tick.

Will it end up working? No clue! Heck, probably not. But meanwhile, the mathy search for patterns. . .
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby OBrien » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:31 am UTC

Kizyr wrote:There're some others that just seem unnecessarily complex. French for instance (quatre-vingts / quatre-vingt-dix? really? there's no easier way to say eighty/ninety?)*. Bangla also has irregular naming conventions for all numbers up to 100. KF

* Ok Wiktionary is telling me that 'octante' and 'nonante' are used in a few places.


Don't forget 70 = Soixant-dix = sixty-ten. As for the alternatives... I've never heard of them. Maybe they're a colloqialism or part of one of the non-French national languages (like Basque and Breton)?
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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby GenericPseudonym » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:57 am UTC

I believe the french textbooks we have in my school mention something about septante/octante/nonante being in dialects from outside of France (maybe Canada, I think?)

Edit:
wikipedia wrote:Belgian French, Swiss French and the French used in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Rwanda and Burundi are different in this respect. In Belgium and Switzerland 70 and 90 are septante and nonante. In Switzerland, depending on the local dialect, 80 can be quatre-vingts (Geneva, Neuchâtel, Jura) or huitante (Vaud, Valais, Fribourg). Octante had been used in Switzerland in the past, but is now considered archaic.[51] In Belgium and in its former African colonies, however, quatre-vingts is universally used.

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Re: Teens Are So Weird -- I mean the numbers.

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:12 pm UTC

Chinese uses that system.

shi yi
shi er
shi san
shi si
shi wu
shi liu
shi qi
shi ba
shi jiu
er shi yi
er shi er
etc.
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