Page 1 of 2

Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:16 pm UTC
by Ideas sleep furiously.
Has anyone noticed the correlation between religion and parenting?

Religion
Before - Do it or you will got to hell!
After - Do it and you will go to heaven and be filled with gods infinite glory and live in a palace made of chocolate!!!

Parenting
Before - Do it or you will get a smack
After - Do it and you will get a lollie... Ok 2 lollies.




http://xkcd.com/552/ Yeah hahahaha.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:25 pm UTC
by Zohar
Wow, amazing. I don't think anyone has ever raised the point that positive reinforcement can lead to preferable behavior and negative reinforcement could be used to abolish unwanted behavior.

I think I smell an experiment! I will need several dogs, a bell, and pavlova!

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:27 pm UTC
by Thesh
Before what and after what? Sense none makes.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:27 pm UTC
by Von Haus
Has anyone noticed the correlation between bad religion and bad parenting?

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:28 pm UTC
by Thesh
Von Haus wrote:Has anyone noticed the correlation between bad religion and bad parenting?


I would argue my parents were both good parents, and they both liked "21st Century Digital Boy."

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:28 pm UTC
by Ideas sleep furiously.
Thesh wrote:Before what and after what? Sense none makes.


Well....

It happened at some point, and thats what matters.

Also notice the number of naughty children compared to before, as well as the number of atheists compared to before.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:33 pm UTC
by Von Haus
Thesh wrote:
Von Haus wrote:Has anyone noticed the correlation between bad religion and bad parenting?


I would argue my parents were both good parents, and they both liked "21st Century Digital Boy."


Touché touché.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:38 pm UTC
by SlyReaper
Ideas sleep furiously. wrote:
Thesh wrote:Before what and after what? Sense none makes.


Well....

It happened at some point, and thats what matters.

Also notice the number of naughty children compared to before, as well as the number of atheists compared to before.


What happened at some point?

And the number of naughty children? How would you even begin to measure such a thing? And before what? And what do atheists have to do with any of this?

In short, what the chuff are you talking about?

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:39 pm UTC
by You, sir, name?
I've conducted an informal study that concluded:

1. Most adults have many keys.
2. Most children have few keys.
3. Many criminals are adults
4. Few criminals are children
=> The size of your keychain is what turns you into a criminal. Probably due to metal poisoning.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:40 pm UTC
by SlyReaper
Also, did you know pirates stop global warming?

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:44 pm UTC
by Ideas sleep furiously.
SlyReaper wrote:What happened at some point?

And the number of naughty children? How would you even begin to measure such a thing? And before what? And what do atheists have to do with any of this?

In short, what the chuff are you talking about?


1. The transfer between positive and negitave reinforcement
2. The point im trying to make is that it's possible that positive reinforcement is less effective then negitave reinforcement.

And idk about the naughty children, but it seems that children are getting naughter and more annoying too me....

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:45 pm UTC
by Ideas sleep furiously.
SlyReaper wrote:Also, did you know pirates stop global warming?


Yes.

Are you doing your part?

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:50 pm UTC
by SlyReaper
Ideas sleep furiously. wrote:And idk about the naughty children, but it seems that children are getting naughter and more annoying too me....

They would because you're getting older. Children are infinitely more annoying when you're not one of them.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:54 pm UTC
by Ideas sleep furiously.
SlyReaper wrote:
Ideas sleep furiously. wrote:And idk about the naughty children, but it seems that children are getting naughter and more annoying too me....

They would because you're getting older. Children are infinitely more annoying when you're not one of them.


Are you saying that there is a correlation between me getting older and childeren seeming to act naughter?

Gee, how ironic hypocritical.
SlyReaper wrote:SlyReaper wrote:Also, did you know pirates stop global warming?

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:57 pm UTC
by SlyReaper
Ideas sleep furiously. wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
Ideas sleep furiously. wrote:And idk about the naughty children, but it seems that children are getting naughter and more annoying too me....

They would because you're getting older. Children are infinitely more annoying when you're not one of them.


Are you saying that there is a correlation between me getting older and childeren seeming to act naughter?

Gee, how ironic.
SlyReaper wrote:SlyReaper wrote:Also, did you know pirates stop global warming?

I don't see the irony.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:01 pm UTC
by Ideas sleep furiously.
Ok.
Got me there, what I meant to say was hypocritical.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:38 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
Von Haus wrote:Has anyone noticed the correlation between bad religion and bad parenting?

One's an okay band, one's not even a fictional band?

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:45 pm UTC
by Lostdreams
The problem is with all of these atheist children not believing in santa they are free to be naughty without the fear of lost presents. Also Lollies for Jesus as a band name?

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:46 pm UTC
by bigglesworth
SecondTalon wrote:one's not even a fictional band?
Of course you would never have heard of them. *Sips PBR and adjusts keffiyeh*

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:48 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
I've heard of Electric Waddlemouse, Jimmy James and the Newsies, Ekoostik Hookah, Phat Wifebeater, Trans-Organic Speedway, Mushca, FROTZ and the Xaminers, and even Tanglosaxons, but I've never heard of Bad Religion.

That's totally a made up band.




Spoiler:
One of the bands (not counting Bad Religion) in my list is actually a real band. They're not bad.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:19 pm UTC
by pseudoidiot
Ideas sleep furiously. wrote:1. The transfer between positive and negitave reinforcement
2. The point im trying to make is that it's possible that positive reinforcement is less effective then negitave reinforcement.
Except, in the OP, you don't give an example of positive & negative reinforcement. At least, not how I'm understanding them.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:21 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
There isn't an example of anything. Before and after what?

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:52 pm UTC
by SlyReaper
SecondTalon wrote:There isn't an example of anything. Before and after what?

A mysterious event where people suddenly changed their parenting tactics from negative to positive reinforcement. Apparently, at the same time, religions did the same thing.

And as a result, we have a bunch of unruly children running around being annoying. Because never before in history have people complained about how children were getting worse.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:15 pm UTC
by TheKrikkitWars
I think that had the OP done a factor analysis*, he'd have realised that the apparently massive increase in "naughty" (by which I actually mean delinquent and increasingly violent) young people is very possibly attributable not to children who have been parented with either positive or negative reinforcement techniques; but to the relatively small (and probably quite stable in cohort size) but very visible subset of children who haven't been parented very much at all.

Equally, he might have considered that the decline of religious belief could be to do with the way that never before the 20th century did the colectively held values of society and the level of social mobility change at such a phenominal rate, meaning that religion became less and less compatible with the way that people thought in their daily lives.

For what it's worth, I think that positive reinforcement is only effective if it's consistent and commensurate; wheras negative reinforcement is most effective when consistent and commensurate, but retains it's effectiveness much better over a wide range of levels of consistency and proportionality.

I reckon that the baby boomer generation is "to blame" on both counts too...


*that is taken time to consider other effects that might have caused the two phenomena that he's commenting on; given that he doesn't seem to have any big data sets to go trawling through...

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:26 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
SlyReaper wrote:
SexyTalon wrote:There isn't an example of anything. Before and after what?

A mysterious event where people suddenly changed their parenting tactics from negative to positive reinforcement. Apparently, at the same time, religions did the same thing.
So... 12,000 BCE? Maybe before? Probably before?

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:34 pm UTC
by Hope_
SecondTalon wrote:I've heard of Electric Waddlemouse, Jimmy James and the Newsies, Ekoostik Hookah, Phat Wifebeater, Trans-Organic Speedway, Mushca, FROTZ and the Xaminers, and even Tanglosaxons, but I've never heard of Bad Religion.

That's totally a made up band.




Spoiler:
One of the bands (not counting Bad Religion) in my list is actually a real band. They're not bad.

I'm really hoping the real one isn't Phat Wofebeater. Tanglosaxons sounds awesome though. I'm going to have to google these.
Actually, you're right the real band is pretty good. /off topic.

On topic: I have nothing to say. The OP seems to have no idea what he is trying to say either.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:41 pm UTC
by theGoldenCalf;
SecondTalon wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
SexyTalon wrote:There isn't an example of anything. Before and after what?

A mysterious event where people suddenly changed their parenting tactics from negative to positive reinforcement. Apparently, at the same time, religions did the same thing.
So... 12,000 BCE? Maybe before? Probably before?


I'm pretty sure that yesterday's amoeba are very concerned and even appalled by the behavior of today's amoeba. So much has changed since...

So yea, probably before.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:48 pm UTC
by Von Haus
Hope_ wrote:Actually, you're right the real band is pretty good. /off topic.


And you couldn't have just said which the real band is to save me having to google them all?

As to the whole bad religion bad parenting thing all I was trying to get across was that the examples of parenting and religion essentially boiling down to threats and bribery and that isn't really all that religion or parenting should be. And rather than saying it like that I decided to repeat the first line of the OP with two additional words.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:53 pm UTC
by Hope_
Von Haus wrote:
Hope_ wrote:Actually, you're right the real band is pretty good. /off topic.


And you couldn't have just said which the real band is to save me having to google them all?

That was the point. Mwahahahaha.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:03 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
Von Haus wrote:
Hope_ wrote:Actually, you're right the real band is pretty good. /off topic.


And you couldn't have just said which the real band is to save me having to google them all?

As to the whole bad religion bad parenting thing all I was trying to get across was that the examples of parenting and religion essentially boiling down to threats and bribery and that isn't really all that religion or parenting should be. And rather than saying it like that I decided to repeat the first line of the OP with two additional words.
See, though it was already abundantly clear by your equating Religion with Be Good : Get Heaven Be Bad : Receive Hell .... I'll just go ahead and mention that you may want to stop thinking Christianity=Religion, or even Judaism/Islam/Christianity=Religion.

There's a fuckton of religions out there, many of which have no reward/punishment after death. And some of the ones that do have said punishments/rewards, they're escapable. And the reward isn't anything like the concept of Heaven anyway.


So I guess what I'm saying is - if you're going to make blanket statements about a topic as broad as Religion.....or Parenting..... it's probably a good idea to.. I don't know.... Know what you're talking about before you make statements that don't even parse correctly in the first place.

Because fuck if I know what the hell you even mean by Before and After.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:17 pm UTC
by Von Haus
SecondTalon wrote:
Von Haus wrote:
Hope_ wrote:Actually, you're right the real band is pretty good. /off topic.


And you couldn't have just said which the real band is to save me having to google them all?

As to the whole bad religion bad parenting thing all I was trying to get across was that the examples of parenting and religion essentially boiling down to threats and bribery and that isn't really all that religion or parenting should be. And rather than saying it like that I decided to repeat the first line of the OP with two additional words.
See, though it was already abundantly clear by your equating Religion with Be Good : Get Heaven Be Bad : Receive Hell .... I'll just go ahead and mention that you may want to stop thinking Christianity=Religion, or even Judaism/Islam/Christianity=Religion.

There's a fuckton of religions out there, many of which have no reward/punishment after death. And some of the ones that do have said punishments/rewards, they're escapable. And the reward isn't anything like the concept of Heaven anyway.


So I guess what I'm saying is - if you're going to make blanket statements about a topic as broad as Religion.....or Parenting..... it's probably a good idea to.. I don't know.... Know what you're talking about before you make statements that don't even parse correctly in the first place.

Because fuck if I know what the hell you even mean by Before and After.


Urm... are you confusing me with the OP or something.
I haven't said a single thing about before and after in the entire thread.

Also me having said "that the examples of parenting and religion essentially boiling down to threats and bribery and that isn't really all that religion or parenting should be". Is that not kind of stating what you just had a go at me for apparently not understanding? Basically saying that summing up parenting and religion as simple reward/punishment was a bad thing to do? So basically the opposite of what you just had a go at me for?

So I guess what i'm saying is - if you're going to make a swear filled random ad hominem, aim it at the right person!

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:46 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
Nah, it's more fun to just see beige in an avatar, misunderstand a sentence and assume I've got the right person.

So, yeah... sorry about that. My complete fuck up there.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:58 pm UTC
by iChef
So the moral of the story is beat your children and you will go to heaven? PPPbbbbfffttt..... Us Catholics have known that for centuries.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:05 pm UTC
by Triangle_Man
iChef wrote:So the moral of the story is beat your children and you will go to heaven? PPPbbbbfffttt..... Us Catholics have known that for centuries.


Hear that, guys?!

If we're going to save our souls, we'll need baseball bats, a military transport vehicle, and the location of every single Elementary School in the Western Hemisphere!

We're going to make this happen, people!

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:09 pm UTC
by iChef
How about we set up our own world-wide network of schools and employ nuns with rulers and paddles?

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:10 pm UTC
by Von Haus
SecondTalon wrote:Nah, it's more fun to just see beige in an avatar, misunderstand a sentence and assume I've got the right person.

So, yeah... sorry about that. My complete fuck up there.


That's ok, I was just worried people would see your post and think of me as the prick you described and wanted to clear up that I am really really not that person. Quite the reverse in fact. :P

Good to know it was just honest confusion.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:20 pm UTC
by SlyReaper
iChef wrote:How about we set up our own world-wide network of schools and employ nuns with rulers and paddles?

I'd enrol at that school.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:24 pm UTC
by iChef
I already did years ago, it's far less sexy than you imagine. Well the nuns anyway, the uniforms on the other hand........

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:58 pm UTC
by Triangle_Man
SlyReaper wrote:
iChef wrote:How about we set up our own world-wide network of schools and employ nuns with rulers and paddles?

I'd enrol at that school.


:shock:

You aren't invited anymore.

Re: Has anyone noticed?

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:25 am UTC
by TheGrammarBolshevik
Ideas sleep furiously. wrote:Ok.
Got me there, what I meant to say was hypocritical.

Note that this clarification has not stopped me from having no fucking clue what you're talking about.