REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Shivahn » Thu May 20, 2010 9:32 pm UTC

So far as I know, you don't actually necessarily catch Buddhism under that label, but that's actually how you want it, since forms of it can be very... unlike religions in critical aspects.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Cynical Idealist » Thu May 20, 2010 10:11 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:A picture of a nude woman can be art. It can also be porn. A close up image of the genitals of two humans mid-coitus is 99.9% of the time hard core pornography - it's generally faster to mention the few times it's not.=

For example: when it's science. (may be NSFW due to text/images, but context should have told you that)
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Eastwinn » Thu May 20, 2010 10:12 pm UTC

I understand what you mean (though I don't specifically, obviously, and I'm too genuinely disinterested to learn about the various types of Buddhism, to be honest). What I want to make a distinction between is a mere philosophy and a full blown religion.

Also, on the topic of religion, misconception: everyone who calls themself atheist really feels strongly enough about it to debate it with you on a whim.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu May 20, 2010 10:13 pm UTC

Eastwinn wrote:Also, on the topic of religion, misconception: everyone who calls themself atheist really feels strongly enough about it to debate it with you on a whim.


I would partially agree with the statement both as a empirical observation of how most atheists relate to other convictions*, but also in the very fundamentals of what atheism states: Atheists don't merely not believe in a god (like strong agnostics), but they believe there is no god, which is a stronger statement. I won't go so far as to say that absolutely every atheist is all in-your-face about it, but I've met atheists who couldn't stand the notion that I was an ignostic instead of an atheist like them.

* may be biased by the noisy minority factor.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 20, 2010 10:22 pm UTC

Misconception: Buddhism is not a religion. (For hundreds of millions of practicing Buddhists, it's every bit as mystical and ritualistic as any other religion.)

Misconception: There's one way the word "atheism" is used by self-identified atheists. (In reality, most tend to be indistinguishable from "strong agnostics".)

In other words, yeah, your opinion is heavily biased by the noisy minority factor.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu May 20, 2010 10:30 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Misconception: Buddhism is not a religion. (For hundreds of millions of practicing Buddhists, it's every bit as mystical and ritualistic as any other religion.)


Equivocation is haunting the Buddhism is or isn't a religion-discussion. First there's the core of Buddhism: The teachings of the Buddha. These are not a religion, but a philosophy (with similarities to classic stoicism). Then theres Buddhist culture, what the hundreds of millions of practicing Buddhists believe and do. This is a religion. Not only because it has rituals and mythology, but also because many of them believe in various deities.

gmalivuk wrote:Misconception: There's one way the word "atheism" is used by self-identified atheists. (In reality, most tend to be indistinguishable from "strong agnostics".)


The reason strong agnostics like to distinguish themselves from atheists is that atheism is haunted by some bad apples that aren't really doing the whole logic and reasoning thing, but practicing atheism quite dogmatically, and being very loud about this, giving it a bad name. That way, you can rest assured that no rebelling 14 year old will ever spray "666! Theological noncognitivism rulz!" on a church door.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 20, 2010 11:34 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:First there's the core of Buddhism: The teachings of the Buddha. These are not a religion, but a philosophy (with similarities to classic stoicism). Then theres Buddhist culture, what the hundreds of millions of practicing Buddhists believe and do. This is a religion.
Well, sure. But how is that any different from Christianity as practiced and Christianity as the teachings of Jesus?
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby ConMan » Fri May 21, 2010 12:00 am UTC

Attempt to re-rail!

Misconception #1: Because I dance, I am gay.

Misconception #2: Because I line dance, I am a gay cowboy.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby .Salo. » Fri May 21, 2010 1:15 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:First there's the core of Buddhism: The teachings of the Buddha. These are not a religion, but a philosophy (with similarities to classic stoicism). Then theres Buddhist culture, what the hundreds of millions of practicing Buddhists believe and do. This is a religion.
Well, sure. But how is that any different from Christianity as practiced and Christianity as the teachings of Jesus?

I think it's that Buddhist philosophy says that all humans will experience pain in their life and goes on to state ways to avoid some of the pain by meditation and paying attention to the present moment. But I'm no expert. While Christianity on the other hand doesn't lend its teachings to much secularization. Jesus preached peace and love and was anti-establishment. If that's what can be taken out of Christian gospel then people may as well follow the likes of John Lennon. If Jesus had preached the use of certain meditation techniques or specific ways to reach a state of peace and love without becoming a christian then that's a different story. But I'm no expert.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Fri May 21, 2010 2:02 am UTC

Choosing to use Strong/Weak Agnosticism/Atheism to clarify your point and separate yourself from "the people giving it a bad name" is a form of being declawed by those in power. After all, if you cannot unite, you cannot conquer.

It's why Feminism is Feminism is Feminism, despite everyone who isn't a feminist bitching about "Feminazis" and how "Feminism only cares about women" etc. etc. etc. -A name is a symbol, and a symbol holds power. Losing your name is, therefore, losing your symbol, and without your symbol you are powerless.

On the flipside, the religious case is actually weakened by attempts to use the same thing, via No True Scotsman Fallacy.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 21, 2010 2:27 am UTC

Insignificant Deifaction wrote:It's why Feminism is Feminism is Feminism
Right. That's why second-wave feminists, third-wave feminists, radical feminists, Marxist feminists, lesbian separatists, and fourth-world feminists, to name just a few, are all content to be grouped in with each other...
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Fri May 21, 2010 2:50 am UTC

:| I cannot state what I wish in a sense that doesn't seem muddled and poorly-phrased. So, I won't. If I can't bring it up to my standards of quality, it isn't good enough to be part of a disagreement with gmalivuk.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Rakysh » Fri May 21, 2010 6:05 am UTC

Shivahn wrote:So far as I know, you don't actually necessarily catch Buddhism under that label, but that's actually how you want it, since forms of it can be very... unlike religions in critical aspects.

There we go again. "Religions" includes Buddhism- it can't be unlike itself, can it.

Insignificant Deifaction wrote:Choosing to use Strong/Weak Agnosticism/Atheism to clarify your point and separate yourself from "the people giving it a bad name" is a form of being declawed by those in power. After all, if you cannot unite, you cannot conquer.

I don't really understand this either. I would say that distancing oneself from those who are zealots that you don't really agree with but declare themselves under the same banner as you is a defensive move more than anything else- I don't think that associating myself with Fred Phelps for example makes it more likely Christianity can "conquer" (not that I want it to anyway) (also who are we conquering?).

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby hintss » Fri May 21, 2010 6:15 am UTC

that all hackers are blackhat.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Kurushimi » Fri May 21, 2010 9:46 am UTC

I know! So many of them are white-hats. I've met a few redhats myself. My personal favorite is a blue hat, though. Either that or magenta.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby You, sir, name? » Fri May 21, 2010 10:53 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:First there's the core of Buddhism: The teachings of the Buddha. These are not a religion, but a philosophy (with similarities to classic stoicism). Then theres Buddhist culture, what the hundreds of millions of practicing Buddhists believe and do. This is a religion.
Well, sure. But how is that any different from Christianity as practiced and Christianity as the teachings of Jesus?


I don't see a problem with that parallel, especially since Jesus' teachings were religious (even if they were quite different from modern Christianity).

Insignificant Deifaction wrote:Choosing to use Strong/Weak Agnosticism/Atheism to clarify your point and separate yourself from "the people giving it a bad name" is a form of being declawed by those in power. After all, if you cannot unite, you cannot conquer.

It's why Feminism is Feminism is Feminism, despite everyone who isn't a feminist bitching about "Feminazis" and how "Feminism only cares about women" etc. etc. etc. -A name is a symbol, and a symbol holds power. Losing your name is, therefore, losing your symbol, and without your symbol you are powerless.

On the flipside, the religious case is actually weakened by attempts to use the same thing, via No True Scotsman Fallacy.


I've never seen the need for irreligion to be united or actively seek to convert or conquer, as irreligion typically uses logic and reason to spread, not power and the intimidation of numbers.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby EmptySet » Fri May 21, 2010 12:56 pm UTC

Rakysh wrote:
Insignificant Deifaction wrote:Choosing to use Strong/Weak Agnosticism/Atheism to clarify your point and separate yourself from "the people giving it a bad name" is a form of being declawed by those in power. After all, if you cannot unite, you cannot conquer.

I don't really understand this either. I would say that distancing oneself from those who are zealots that you don't really agree with but declare themselves under the same banner as you is a defensive move more than anything else- I don't think that associating myself with Fred Phelps for example makes it more likely Christianity can "conquer" (not that I want it to anyway) (also who are we conquering?).


Alternately, maybe strong/weak agnostics/atheists do actually have different opinions, and the distinctions can be important? I've had arguments with strong atheists who claim my agnosticism is irrational. I've also had discussions where a religious person has assumed that all atheists are anti-theists or strong atheists and then proceeded to make a bunch of criticisms which don't actually apply to me at all. "Atheists have blind faith that God doesn't exist!", for instance - I don't even make that assertion, let alone do so on blind faith. It's like bashing the Anglican Church because you think Catholics are silly to regard contraception as a sin. Because they're both Christian, right? And clearly all Christians are the same.

Also, as has been pointed out, it's not about purgin' the believer and crushing all the kingdoms of Earth beneath our heel.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 21, 2010 1:51 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:I've never seen the need for irreligion to be united or actively seek to convert or conquer, as irreligion typically uses logic and reason to spread, not power and the intimidation of numbers.
I'll agree with you, but only with the caveat that most irreligious things can easily become religious.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby bigglesworth » Fri May 21, 2010 1:55 pm UTC

For example the "drawing Mohammed" thing recently.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby the tree » Fri May 21, 2010 2:06 pm UTC

Amie wrote:Fact: Actually, most religious people I know are very kind, harmless, docile beings that don't bite and I happen to be best friends with some of them.
I have definitely been bitten by religious people before.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby bigglesworth » Fri May 21, 2010 2:08 pm UTC

Yeah, but not by any of the people Amie knows, I'd wager.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Amie » Fri May 21, 2010 3:29 pm UTC

the tree wrote:
Amie wrote:Fact: Actually, most religious people I know are very kind, harmless, docile beings that don't bite and I happen to be best friends with some of them.
I have definitely been bitten by religious people before.

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Seriously though, me too. Which is why I said "most".
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Shivahn » Fri May 21, 2010 5:14 pm UTC

Rakysh wrote:
Shivahn wrote:So far as I know, you don't actually necessarily catch Buddhism under that label, but that's actually how you want it, since forms of it can be very... unlike religions in critical aspects.

There we go again. "Religions" includes Buddhism- it can't be unlike itself, can it.


...Yes it can? In the same way any broad category of philosophies with a single base can have branches unlike the rest. You're essentially claiming that because one branch of Buddhism is a religion, all branches are. I'm saying that you don't want to include the philosophies of Buddha, stripped of all spiritual content, and followed critically as one would follow another philosophy, as religion.

It's essentially like you're saying that ethical theory involves bringing the greatest good to the greatest number of people. Yes, there are significant branches of ethics that do that, but not every branch does, so you don't want to blanket the entire field with those terms.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Rakysh » Fri May 21, 2010 5:23 pm UTC

My mistake. I thought you were comparing the whole thing to abrahamic religions, which was what I'd just been whining about. I didn't read what you said properly, apologies.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Shivahn » Fri May 21, 2010 5:32 pm UTC

Oh, heh, sorry if I came on a bit strong then. Looking back I can see that I worded my initial post poorly, too.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby rrwoods » Fri May 21, 2010 6:00 pm UTC

hintss wrote:that all hackers are blackhat.

seriously god dammit.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby pseudoidiot » Fri May 21, 2010 6:06 pm UTC

Some hackers don't even wear hats!
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby SlyReaper » Fri May 21, 2010 8:28 pm UTC

pseudoidiot wrote:Some hackers don't even wear hats!

Pfft, no true hacker would be seen dead baht 'at.

I love the no true Scotsman fallacy
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby kernelpanic » Fri May 21, 2010 9:33 pm UTC

Misconception: If you like art, science is something incomprehensible and bland for you.
Misconception: If you like science, art is meaningless and you are a joyless person.
Misconception: The fact that I enjoy physics and maths and hate art proves the above.
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby The Scyphozoa » Sat May 22, 2010 1:35 am UTC

kernelpanic wrote:Misconception: If you like art, science is something incomprehensible and bland for you.
Misconception: If you like science, art is meaningless and you are a joyless person.
Misconception: The fact that I enjoy physics and maths and hate art proves the above.

So, in short, "Misconception: One example of a person fitting a stereotype (such as kernelpanic) does not mean that everyone does."?
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Nemphael » Sat May 22, 2010 12:07 pm UTC

"If one person fits a stereotype, everyone does"? Something went wrong.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby a_fuzzyduck » Sat May 22, 2010 4:27 pm UTC

may well have bindun but:

accusation = guilt
rumour = fact

especially in delicate matters like sexual offences. And why I like how over here at least, anonymity is being extended to the defendants in such cases as well
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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby The Scyphozoa » Sat May 22, 2010 5:15 pm UTC

Nemphael wrote:"If one person fits a stereotype, everyone does"? Something went wrong.

Wait... okay, double negative fail. :x

Misconception: One example of a person fitting a stereotype (such as kernelpanic) means that everyone does.
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doogly wrote:murder is a subset of being mean

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Kurushimi » Sun May 23, 2010 10:43 pm UTC

Where exactly is the double negative?...or the single negative?

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby animeHrmIne » Sun May 23, 2010 11:01 pm UTC

The Scyphozoa wrote:Misconception: One example of a person fitting a stereotype (such as kernelpanic) does not mean that everyone does.


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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Kurushimi » Sun May 23, 2010 11:08 pm UTC

Oh, wait, he was referring to his previous statement wasn't he? I thought he was talking about what Nemphael said.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby The Scyphozoa » Mon May 24, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Nope, I was the one that failed.
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3rdtry wrote:If there ever is another World War, I hope they at least have the decency to call it "World War 2: Episode One"

doogly wrote:murder is a subset of being mean

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby mercuryseven » Mon May 24, 2010 5:40 am UTC

kernelpanic wrote:Misconception: If you like art, science is something incomprehensible and bland for you.
Misconception: If you like science, art is meaningless and you are a joyless person.


Only need two words to disprove this misconception: Carl Sagan

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Kurushimi » Mon May 24, 2010 10:08 am UTC

Actually, you need 3.

Carl Freakin' Sagan.

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Re: REALLY Annoying Misconceptions

Postby Giant Speck » Mon May 24, 2010 11:08 am UTC

Kurushimi wrote:Actually, you need 3.

Carl Freakin' Sagan.

Actually, four.

Carl Freakin' Sagan, helloooooooooo!
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