[SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - All Things Women. Period.

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Belial
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Postby Belial » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:35 pm UTC

Pi wrote:But belial, I don't and my friends don't randomly go and grope/grab/rub.


Neat for you. I don't think that's the experience the other clubbers are describing.

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Nope. Hampton Roads. South Virginia.

I visit DC sometimes.
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Postby Alisto » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:37 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
If you go to a club (not gothic and such), and expect not to be touched by guys. Then complain about why guys touched you. You are just looking for reasons to call guys stupid.


Just because you and some others decided that clubs were a safe-ground for blame-free sexual assault, doesn't make it so.


I would agree, but I'm too distracted by the sentence fragments.
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Postby 3.14159265... » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:39 pm UTC

Neat for you. I don't think that's the experience the other clubbers are describing.
Thats the thing, I don't think it is.

The whole giving 3 seconds for decisions, everyone I know does that.

Yet there are some girls that will give us dirty looks and say "I am here to dance, not be touched by guys" rather than just moving away a bit. Then they try to treat you like a rapist the whole night..

Its really annoying.
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Postby Sandry » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:41 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Sandry wrote:I thought you lived vaguely DC-area-ish.


Nope. Hampton Roads. South Virginia.

I visit DC sometimes.

Sucker. ;P

South of DC is just south enough that I think I'd spend my life in some sort of acute liberal agony.

And hey, unwanted-grab-evading girls - try gay clubs. For reasons beyond my control to explain, I've been a couple times with several female friends, and boy do we not get harassed.
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Postby Jesse » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:44 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:Clubs have a single intention, reaching you the sex of your choice.


I wholeheartedly disagree. That is what a singles bar is for, a club is for going to a place that plays loud music and sells alcohol. Not to mention usually plays live music (at least around Blackpool) which is way more fun than listening to a cd at home.

Your rant seemed to be that a lady going to a club is definitely looking for a guy, and wonders why she's getting groped. No-one is complaining about guys dancing with them, it is the out-of-the-blue groping which offends, which you yourself say you don't do so you must think it immoral and yet you stated in a post women shouldn't complain about.

My dislike for you increases.

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Postby Belial » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:45 pm UTC

The whole giving 3 seconds for decisions, everyone I know does that.

Yet there are some girls that will give us dirty looks and say "I am here to dance, not be touched by guys" rather than just moving away a bit. Then they try to treat you like a rapist the whole night..

Its really annoying.


If many people are responding poorly, you may come to the conclusion that that's not procedure, it's just what you're doing. Your procedure may need revision.

Some sort of explicit request for permission may even be in order. Shocking, I know.
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Postby 3.14159265... » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:47 pm UTC

I am complaining about the fact that some girls will treat us like rapists, when we are there to dance with them.

Here the clubs I go to, never have live music, they lights are always dim (guess why).

The amount of time I give is I find sufficient, yet there are some girls who don't see that.

My method is also considered as groping, which is annoying.

Edit:

There are only some girls (1 or 2 a night) who do get offended.

Asking is out of the question, music is wayyyyyy to loud, and saying "wanna dance?" always gets a no, from all the other girls other than the (1 or 2) mentioned.
Last edited by 3.14159265... on Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:48 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:48 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:
Neat for you. I don't think that's the experience the other clubbers are describing.
Thats the thing, I don't think it is.

The whole giving 3 seconds for decisions, everyone I know does that.

Yet there are some girls that will give us dirty looks and say "I am here to dance, not be touched by guys" rather than just moving away a bit. Then they try to treat you like a rapist the whole night..

Its really annoying.


Well if a girl's just had 5 different guys come rub their crotches on her backside, number 6 is probably not going to be perceived too kindly.

If she is there to dance with her friends and not with guys, she shouldn't need to spend the whole evening trying to move away (in a really crowded space) from guys humping up against her.

The amount of time I give is I find sufficient, yet there are some girls who don't see that.


Here's your solution:
You either buck up and stop being a gropey asshole, or you buck up and accept that some women are going to think you're a gropey asshole.

Edit: is it "gropy", or "gropey"?
Last edited by gmalivuk on Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:50 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Sprocket » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:49 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
If you go to a club (not gothic and such), and expect not to be touched by guys. Then complain about why guys touched you. You are just looking for reasons to call guys stupid.


Just because you and some others decided that clubs were a safe-ground for blame-free sexual assault, doesn't make it so.


Ah loves you. Sh...don't tell Girl.

Yeah, the way people dance in clubs horrifies me, the grinding and shit with a person you don't even know...ick! I've never been in it. I've only danced in rather empty clubs or this goth club, which was great. Or I've clearly been there with guys already and no one came up to me. I've yet to go to a dance club in Boston.
Last edited by Sprocket on Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:53 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SecondTalon » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:52 pm UTC

Wait...

People dancing in clubs think it's okay to touch a complete stranger while dancing?

The fuck?!

I mean.. doing the light shoulder-touch-'cause-I'm-guiding-you-to-the-bar-to-chat is one thing.. that just seems.... too damn forward to do to someone who's name you don't even know.

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Postby 3.14159265... » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:53 pm UTC

People dancing in clubs think it's okay to touch a complete stranger while dancing?
Yes given she has Ok-ed you, by not moving away after sufficient time.

This is the beauty (wrong word) of clubs, you don't have to get to know the people.

You guys are getting annoyed, I will stop.

But seriously, I am not one that says just cuz things are this way, then its ok.

However I find club procedures on pickin up girls/guys are pretty good as they are.
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Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:56 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:I am complaining about the fact that some girls will treat us like rapists, when we are there to dance with them.

Are you not, in fact, there to fuck them? That's what seems to be the end goal for you.

It's not rape, but rape is a more accurate word for it than dance.
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Postby Belial » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:56 pm UTC

CatProximity wrote:Ah loves you. Sh...don't tell Girl.


It's okay. It can be our secret. It's not like we're on a public forum or anything.
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Postby Jesse » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:57 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:
People dancing in clubs think it's okay to touch a complete stranger while dancing?
Yes given she has Ok-ed you, by not moving away after sufficient time.

This is the beauty (wrong word) of clubs, you don't have to get to know the people.

You guys are getting annoyed, I will stop.

But seriously, I am not one that says just cuz things are this way, then its ok.

However I find club procedures on pickin up girls/guys are pretty good as they are.


Well, actually that's not really 'procedure'. As far as I was aware the procedure is to dance with the lady for a song or two, then offer her a beverage. Am I doing it wrong? I am pretty sure what you are doing does amount to groping.

Here, groping: Groping is touching another person in a sexual way. Buttocks, thighs and breasts are often groped. When done without permission or against the will of another person, this can be considered a form of sexual abuse.

I do not see 'not moving away' as 'permission to touch me in any way you desire'.

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Postby 3.14159265... » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:57 pm UTC

Are you not, in fact, there to fuck them? That's what seems to be the end goal for you.
No most night, the goal is to grope/rub/dance with a girl who wants to grope/rub/dance with me.

Edit:

Well, actually that's not really 'procedure'. As far as I was aware the procedure is to dance with the lady for a song or two, then offer her a beverage. Am I doing it wrong? I am pretty sure what you are doing does amount to groping.

Here, groping: Groping is touching another person in a sexual way. Buttocks, thighs and breasts are often groped. When done without permission or against the will of another person, this can be considered a form of sexual abuse.

I do not see 'not moving away' as 'permission to touch me in any way you desire'.
Your procedure is alright, but for maturer clubs. I go to 19-22 year old clubs.

I do grope, but there are ways they let you know its k. By groping back. By pushing into your hands. By leading your hands.

I have madeout, groped, been groped without uttering a single word.
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Postby Jesse » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:13 pm UTC

My friend, I recently turned twenty, I go to clubs with and for people my age. These are not necessarily goth clubs, my friends aren't goths, but this still does not occur.

If I am dancing with a lady, and she leads my hands to her hips or wherever, then fine, but I would not just think "Hey, she hasn't run away from me yet, time to get touchy."

I think you will find the majoirty of people disagree with your idea of what is 'permissible'.

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Postby Alisto » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:33 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:I am complaining about the fact that some girls will treat us like rapists, when we are there to dance with them.


Just because you are there to dance with them does not mean they are there to dance with you.

3.14159265... wrote:My method is also considered as groping, which is annoying.


So what you're really saying is, "I am complaining about the fact that some girls will treat us like rapists, when we are there to grope them."
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Postby Twasbrillig » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:34 pm UTC

Alisto wrote:
3.14159265... wrote:I am complaining about the fact that some girls will treat us like rapists, when we are there to dance with them.


Just because you are there to dance with them does not mean they are there to dance with you.


Of course not, they're there to stand around with nobody and not have fun. Isn't that what clubs are for?
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Postby SecondTalon » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:35 pm UTC

Heh.. perhaps we need to define just what we mean when we say "Dance"
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Postby Alisto » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:41 pm UTC

Twasbrillig wrote:Of course not, they're there to stand around with nobody and not have fun. Isn't that what clubs are for?


Here's a crazy concept. Try to stick with me on this, because it gets complicated:

It is entirely possible for straight women to go to a club with the intention of dancing by themselves. Many/most do not need to dance with men to have fun dancing.
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Postby 3.14159265... » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:42 pm UTC

Just because you are there to dance with them does not mean they are there to dance with you.
Thus we let them decide whether they want to dance with us, communication though is with body language.

So what you're really saying is, "I am complaining about the fact that some girls will treat us like rapists, when we are there to grope them."
Sure, you could say this. But the groping is always consented to with body language.

Here is a descrition again. G is girl, B is boy.

G G } dancing

B B
G G} Boys aproach

B G G B } Boys dancing behind girls, waiting for about 3 seconds.

B_G G_B } Boys put hands on hips and wait for another 3 seconds

BG GB} Boys begin rubbing crotch, by this time you know if she wants u there, by her pushing back.

I can see why people have a problem with me going to clubs sometimes with the single aim of getting some groping/rubbing action, without asking her name.

I don't see however why people think if I follow the above, a girl should be seeing me as a rapist.

Jesster we obviously go to different kinds of clubs.
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Postby Twasbrillig » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:46 pm UTC

Alisto wrote:It is entirely possible for straight women to go to a club with the intention of dancing by themselves.


That's what DDR is for.
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Postby Alisto » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:47 pm UTC

9 seconds of not pushing you away is not necessarily consent. Especially when you attack in packs. Especially if you have been drinking and your perceptions into the female mind have been dulled.

Women are groped in trains in Japan on a regular basis. If they don't scream and push you away, is that consent?
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Postby Vaniver » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:47 pm UTC

It is entirely possible for straight women to go to a club with the intention of dancing by themselves. Many/most do not need to dance with men to have fun dancing.
Why the hell would they want to dance by themselves in a club? Isn't the whole point of dancing in a club to dance with other people?
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Postby 3.14159265... » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:48 pm UTC

It is entirely possible for straight women to go to a club with the intention of dancing by themselves. Many/most do not need to dance with men to have fun dancing.
If they choose to do this, in a club, then when a guy approaches, they should give a head shake, and then go on dancing. Rather than thinking the guy is a rapist for trying to make them a potential gropee/rub with/have fun with person.

9 seconds of not pushing you away is not necessarily consent. Especially when you attack in packs. Especially if you have been drinking and your perceptions into the female mind have been dulled.

In a club it is.
Women are groped in trains in Japan on a regular basis. If they don't scream and push you away, is that consent?

Do you see where I can draw a line between a club and a train?
Last edited by 3.14159265... on Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:51 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Alisto » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:50 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
It is entirely possible for straight women to go to a club with the intention of dancing by themselves. Many/most do not need to dance with men to have fun dancing.
Why the hell would they want to dance by themselves in a club? Isn't the whole point of dancing in a club to dance with other people?


By themselves. With each other. Group of 3-4 girls.

Bloody hell, someone let me know when the y-chromosomes are done jacking up the girls' thread. I'll be in my trailer.
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Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:53 pm UTC

Oh just a few things since this discussion has made me kind of livid:

3.14159265... wrote:rant

If you go to a club (not gothic and such), and expect not to be touched by guys. Then complain about why guys touched you. You are just looking for reasons to call guys stupid.
If you want to dance with a few of your friends, put on some music and dance.
If you want to enjoy the night life, go walk downtown, or visit a bar, go to a concert.
Clubs have a single intention, reaching you the sex of your choice.
If you like rejecting guys, and then complaining about them being handsy then go to clubs wanting to dance with your friends.
/rant.


RANT
No. Just no. If I want to go out and enjoy the night life, I'll goddamn bloody do it HOWEVER I WANT. If I go to a club, I do so to dance, and drink, and listen to the music I want to hear. Not so some idiot can decree that three fucking seconds is long enough notice before sexual assault. Don't take this the wrong way, but fuck you.
/RANT

3.14159265... wrote:But belial, I don't and my friends don't randomly go and grope/grab/rub.
We dance over, give 3 seconds to decide whether they want to dance, then put hands on hips give 3 seconds for that to settle, then rub away.
Thats not sexual assault, thats just procedure.
I can't hear myself talk in a club, so I shouldn't be expected to sweet talk a girl, just sweet dance her.


Actually, it is sexual assault if you're humping my ass and I did NOT ask you to. Just because you say it's not sexual assault doesn't mean it isn't.

gmalivuk wrote:In other words, keep your cocks (and hands) to yourself, asshole. Even if a girl goes to a club knowing there's some probability of gropage, it doesn't give you an excuse to be the prick doing it.

WORD.

3.14159265... wrote:I am complaining about the fact that some girls will treat us like rapists, when we are there to dance with them.
Here the clubs I go to, never have live music, they lights are always dim (guess why).
The amount of time I give is I find sufficient, yet there are some girls who don't see that.
My method is also considered as groping, which is annoying.
Edit:
There are only some girls (1 or 2 a night) who do get offended.
Asking is out of the question, music is wayyyyyy to loud, and saying "wanna dance?" always gets a no, from all the other girls other than the (1 or 2) mentioned.


Consider me offended. If you did that shit to me, I would treat you like a jackass. I'd probably assault you with a lit cigarette, depending on how hard you were 'dancing'.
Maybe if every girl you ask to dance says no, it's time to find a new way of picking up chicks.
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Postby SecondTalon » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:56 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:
It is entirely possible for straight women to go to a club with the intention of dancing by themselves. Many/most do not need to dance with men to have fun dancing.
If they choose to do this, in a club, then when a guy approaches, they should give a head shake, and then go on dancing. Rather than thinking the guy is a rapist for trying to make them a potential gropee/rub with/have fun with person.


Okay.. this might come from my complete ignorance as in my life I've been to the same club on two different occasions.. and that's it. I've been to large bars that have a club like-feel, but only one real club. And it was a club that, at the time, had a Goth Night on said Goth Night.

I say all this because perhaps my perception of what a club is has been skewed by media entertainment and said goth night but...

In my experience, clubs are loud, dark places with blinding lights going off every 4.8 seconds. In such situations, I've been completely unaware of a person being behind me until I shift backwards (What? I shift around when I'm standing) and bump in to said person.

So, my point being... in the short time you manuver around the girl and dance behind her that leads to you placing your hands on her midsection... is it possible that she, in fact, has no idea you're even there? I mean, I don't know about you, but touching someone who doesn't know you're there anywhere other than the arm sounds like a good way to get elbowed in the face on reflex. Sure, she'll appologize and possibly buy you a drink, but... it doesn't sound like a good way to make a first impression.

Maybe I'm just paranoid. I also don't go to clubs, so I really have no idea what the proceedure is around here. I find most modern dancing repulsive.. well, okay, I find dry humping on a dancefloor repulsive. I just can't dance, which is why I don't enjoy dancing, which is why I never bother to learn how to dance, which is why I hate dancing.. and so on.
Last edited by SecondTalon on Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:58 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Belial » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:56 pm UTC

Bloody hell, someone let me know when the y-chromosomes are done jacking up the girls' thread. I'll be in my trailer.


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Postby 3.14159265... » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:57 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas sorry for offending you. You seem to be one of the other girls I am mentioning. I love to meet people like you, outside of a club, I socialize, and bring up things we have in common.

I however go to clubs to meet a different kind of girls.

Maybe if every girl you ask to dance says no, it's time to find a new way of picking up chicks.
I did, and thats by following the above procedure, and I am doing quite well. This is in clubs.

However if I know a girl already, when I go to a bar with her, I would ask her to dance. Or if I meet a girl I already know, I ask her to dance.

EDIT: SecondTalon girls usually go with a friend. Each friend OKs the guy infront of her. So the noticing isn't a problem

Also I have offended enough, I am done on this thread.
Last edited by 3.14159265... on Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:59 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Twasbrillig » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:58 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:Consider me offended. If you did that shit to me, I would treat you like a jackass. I'd probably assault you with a lit cigarette, depending on how hard you were 'dancing'.
Maybe if every girl you ask to dance says no, it's time to find a new way of picking up chicks.


If you ask a girl to dance at a club, she says 'no' because you sound like the dorkiest dork whom ever dorked. The whole idea of a club is that everybody dances with everybody, not that some people form cliques that they stay in.
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Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:58 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Bloody hell, someone let me know when the y-chromosomes are done jacking up the girls' thread. I'll be in my trailer.


This trailer. Does it have drinks and a place where we could play cards?


I think it's called the Man Thread. I hear there's bacon, but it's a real sausage-fest.
Last edited by (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:08 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Belial » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:06 pm UTC

[Pickles the Drummer voice]The man thread, he is total sausage festivals. [/Pickles voice]
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

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Postby Mittins » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:06 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:
Belial wrote:
Bloody hell, someone let me know when the y-chromosomes are done jacking up the girls' thread. I'll be in my trailer.


This trailer. Does it have drinks and a place where we could play cards?


I think it's called the Man Thread. I hear there's bacon, but it's a real sausage-fest.


There's bacon AND sausage?
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Postby Alisto » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:07 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:
Belial wrote:
Bloody hell, someone let me know when the y-chromosomes are done jacking up the girls' thread. I'll be in my trailer.


This trailer. Does it have drinks and a place where we could play cards?


I think it's called the Man Thread. I hear there's bacon, but it's a real sausage-fest.


I stay out of the man thread because I dislike bacon. I did enjoy the power tool discussion, though.
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Postby Lani » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:10 pm UTC

I go dancing usually weekly, but not at clubs. I haven't been out club dancing in...many years. This exchange has cemented my desire to not ever go back.

Good goddamn, people.
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Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:14 pm UTC

Twasbrillig wrote:If you ask a girl to dance at a club, she says 'no' because you sound like the dorkiest dork whom ever dorked. The whole idea of a club is that everybody dances with everybody, not that some people form cliques that they stay in.


Or they say no because they have a boyfriend and don't want to dance, or because you're not they're type and they don't think you're cute, or maybe they're gay, or maybe they just don't bloody want to dance with you.

I love how the girl thread has become the 'guys tell each other what girls think' thread.


For Example:

Vaniver wrote:
It is entirely possible for straight women to go to a club with the intention of dancing by themselves. Many/most do not need to dance with men to have fun dancing.
Why the hell would they want to dance by themselves in a club? Isn't the whole point of dancing in a club to dance with other people?



No, not always. Usually it's just to dance.
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Postby dopplex » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:26 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:
Just because you are there to dance with them does not mean they are there to dance with you.
Thus we let them decide whether they want to dance with us, communication though is with body language.

So what you're really saying is, "I am complaining about the fact that some girls will treat us like rapists, when we are there to grope them."
Sure, you could say this. But the groping is always consented to with body language.

Here is a descrition again. G is girl, B is boy.

G G } dancing

B B
G G} Boys aproach

B G G B } Boys dancing behind girls, waiting for about 3 seconds.

B_G G_B } Boys put hands on hips and wait for another 3 seconds

BG GB} Boys begin rubbing crotch, by this time you know if she wants u there, by her pushing back.


So because you haven't been rebuffed after 6 seconds of touching her hip, it's implicit permission to start rubbing your crotch against her?

I know I'm insulting someone with like 1500 more posts here than me... But how the fuck have you not been arrested for sexual harassment yet? You need a hell of a lot more than "I touched her hip for 3 seconds and she didn't run away" to be able to think there's anything consensual about this situation.

The two females who you admit feel violated by this every time you go out - what are they, just acceptable casualties or something?

You're a disgrace to the male gender, dude.

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Postby Vaniver » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:31 pm UTC

No, not always. Usually it's just to dance.
If you want to dance by yourself, perhaps you should go somewhere where it is not normal* for you to be approached by someone looking to grope you and/or be groped in return.

*not accepted, just normal.
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Postby kilgore trout » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:32 pm UTC

Group of girls: Hey, let's all go for a girls night out. Yeah, we don't need guys. Let's go have a good time, get drunk, and dance like crazy. Wohoo girl power!

Group of guys: Hey, wanna go to a club and try to get laid by some drunk girl?

That sums up my experience with the differing perspectives of girls and guys in going to clubs. (Yes, there are exceptions to both of these attitudes, don't generalize, blah, blah, blah. )


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