Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby roband » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:22 am UTC

Whenever I go out with stubble and my won't-be-shaving-til-he's-thirty friend is out, he always gets ID'd and I don't - I always give him some stick. All friendly, because it's funny how it always happens.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby PeteP » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:25 pm UTC

About the beard topic, does anyone have experience with laser hair removal? I'm seriously considering. It costs some money but if I could stop shaving that might be worth it. (But maybe someday I will suddenly want to grow a beard and regret it...)

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Ryom » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:55 pm UTC

My understanding is that laser treatment is considered "hair reduction" and not removal. The only guaranteed hair removal procedure is electrolysis. My advice is to try different shaving methods... with my shave soap, brush, and double-edged razor I find shaving to be very little trouble anymore. If you are using a modern cartridge razor, try ditching it for awhile.
Last edited by Ryom on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:10 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:08 pm UTC

That was... pretty obnoxious.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:38 pm UTC

Yeah, can you clarify what the point of that image is? Because without context, it kind of reads like "privileged douchecanoe". Also, like it's wrong.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby bigglesworth » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:19 pm UTC

It's not totally wrong, however.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Ptolom » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:45 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:It's not totally wrong, however.

Just half of it.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby roband » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:47 pm UTC

Ptolom wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:It's not totally wrong, however.

Just half of it.

Hahahaha.

Some of it, I can see the point. Some of it.. no.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Zarq » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:53 pm UTC

It's very, very exaggerated. Some stuff is partly true, hell, just hours ago I had a (tongue-in-cheek) conversation with my mom about how I should get more money for my birthday than my sister since I have to buy my own drinks when I go out, but it's presented in a very sexist manner.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby bigglesworth » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:07 pm UTC

Re-writing it in a non-inflammatory and sober manner might prove useful as a discussion point.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Shivahn » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:01 am UTC

bigglesworth wrote:It's not totally wrong, however.

Some parts of it are so wrong that they aren't even not true, they're reverse true.

Like, "there is no stigma against women masturbating."

Yes. That is why so many of the women I know have such complexes that they feel dirty at the thought of it.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby bigglesworth » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:08 am UTC

Absolutely, that's a good example of a wrong'un. And probably points out the author as being someone who gets much of their information about women from pornography.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Shivahn » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:10 am UTC

You are right though, that I think a good dialogue about all that stuff would really help society. It's important to note when we have strange or double standards, whatever the root cause.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby ameretrifle » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:15 am UTC

"Gender stereotyping hurts men too" is an excellent point that desperately needs to be argued far more widely. That is the opposite of the way to go about it.

I think it would be a much better idea to start a discussion with one of the many, many reasonable posts/graphs/articles about the issue rather than trying to retool that trolly piece of shit. Seems far more efficient, and it's not like it isn't out there.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Zarq » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:58 am UTC

Shivahn wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:It's not totally wrong, however.

Some parts of it are so wrong that they aren't even not true, they're reverse true.

Like, "there is no stigma against women masturbating."

Yes. That is why so many of the women I know have such complexes that they feel dirty at the thought of it.


But on the other hand, think about vibrators vs. fleshlights. Girl with vibrator: yeah, okay, no big deal. Guy with fleshlight: forever alone creep. (both dependent on circle ofcourse).

I think this is one of the cases where the thing the media says is different than the thing people think. The media portrays masturbation as a dirty but integral part of a teenage boy's life, while completely ignoring girls. This implies that girls don't/shouldn't poop masturbate.

Yet I'm certain that if you go to any campus you'll find more people who find girls masturbating more acceptable than guys masturbating, as opposed to the opposite. Mind you, I'm not saying there's no stigma, I'm saying the stigma is mostly kept in place by girls. I, for one, have yet to find a single guy who finds girls masturbating less acceptable than guys masturbating.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby bigglesworth » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:23 am UTC

Maybe on the moon.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Hawknc » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:50 am UTC

Ryom wrote:Unrelated to above and spoilered for tall and content (language and potential triggers)

Okay, so here's the thing. If you post something like this without comment, the only assumption we can make is that you are posting it because you agree with it. (There's the alternative that you're posting it to start an argument, but that's trolling, and I'm sure you wouldn't do that, because if you did then we'd have to feed you to the sharks.) So a lot of us are probably going to think you're a colossal asshat, because that's really the only kind of person that would agree with the premise of that image. Feel free to disagree with that assessment.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Mostlynormal » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:37 am UTC

Like people said, some (but certainly not all) of it is true. The problem is, you could probably make an even bigger list with problems that women face. For example

Problem: Your crush doesn't know you exist
Boy: Ask them out
Girl: YOU'RE FUCKED (It's an exaggeration obviously, but you get the point)

Problem: You want a high position in a succesful business
Boy: Get an MBA
Girl: Get an MBA, then wade through a bunch of very real prejudice while being payed less than a similarly qualified man. (assuming you don't hit a glass ceiling)

...and so on. Unfortunately I think a significant part of the population embraces certain stereotypes (Some girls like special treatment, Some guys are obsessed with "manliness", etc). But if we want equality, each gender has to give up the "good" stereotypes as well as the bad.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Virtual_Aardvark » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:58 am UTC

Trigger:
Spoiler:
I like how homeless/broke women being able to sleep with people for food, money and shelter is put in a positive light. Lets just ignore the terrifyingly high chances of homeless women being raped/murdered. Lets ignore that prostitutes face similarly high chances and have basically no legal recourse plus the high probability of cops doing the assaulting.


And I shouldn't have to explain how men finding me hot because I'm queer isn't actually an advantage right?

Also way too many of the things listed as advantages for women are specific targets of the feminist movement. I can pay for my own food thanks.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Ryom » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:04 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:
Ryom wrote:Unrelated to above and spoilered for tall and content (language and potential triggers)

Okay, so here's the thing. If you post something like this without comment, the only assumption we can make is that you are posting it because you agree with it. (There's the alternative that you're posting it to start an argument, but that's trolling, and I'm sure you wouldn't do that, because if you did then we'd have to feed you to the sharks.) So a lot of us are probably going to think you're a colossal asshat, because that's really the only kind of person that would agree with the premise of that image. Feel free to disagree with that assessment.


I agree with some of it (as do several others so far), and I think the author created it to be understood as mostly tongue-in-cheek. I do not agree with all of it, and posted it to get a sense of what others thought about it without color from my take on it.

My opinion of you right now however, is that you are being judgmental. You disagree with someone or something posted and call the poster an asshat and get away with it because you are staff. That makes XKCD into a clique that you have to toe the line to fit into, instead of a open forum where differing opinions will be accepted and debated like mature adults. You could have asked my opinion directly without name-calling if you wanted to know, and a brief look into my post history will tell if I am a troll or not. Feel free to disagree with that assessment.

On an unrelated note, I am now AHA CPR certified! Go me :mrgreen:

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:32 am UTC

Ryom wrote:My opinion of you right now however, is that you are being judgmental.

Hmm, did you get that from the part where he called you a colossal asshat?
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:01 am UTC

Ryom wrote:My opinion of you right now however, is that you are being judgmental. You disagree with someone or something posted and call the poster an asshat and get away with it because you are staff. That makes XKCD into a clique that you have to toe the line to fit into, instead of a open forum where differing opinions will be accepted and debated like mature adults. You could have asked my opinion directly without name-calling if you wanted to know, and a brief look into my post history will tell if I am a troll or not. Feel free to disagree with that assessment.

Hawk is debating your asshattedness like an adult.

Me, I'd just call you a poopy head. Because I'm five.

Seriously, though - shit like that is why this will never be a safespace.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Ryom » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:26 am UTC

Which is why I spoiler'ed and warned for language and content. If you feel it necessary, remove the link and explain why you took it out... Instead of throwing out insults which then becomes do as I say and not as I do. Sometimes someone is going to post something someone else doesn't agree with. Do you want to see it degenerate immediately into cussing and name-calling? I doubt it. Lead by example?

Take it out if you must, just don't act self-righteous.
Last edited by Ryom on Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:29 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby doogly » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:28 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Seriously, though - shit like that is why this will never be a safespace.

If the image hasn't been removed, then you're having a bit of a cart / horse issue, it would seem.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Shivahn » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:42 am UTC

Zarq wrote:
Shivahn wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:It's not totally wrong, however.

Some parts of it are so wrong that they aren't even not true, they're reverse true.

Like, "there is no stigma against women masturbating."

Yes. That is why so many of the women I know have such complexes that they feel dirty at the thought of it.


But on the other hand, think about vibrators vs. fleshlights. Girl with vibrator: yeah, okay, no big deal. Guy with fleshlight: forever alone creep. (both dependent on circle ofcourse).

I think this is one of the cases where the thing the media says is different than the thing people think. The media portrays masturbation as a dirty but integral part of a teenage boy's life, while completely ignoring girls. This implies that girls don't/shouldn't poop masturbate.

Yet I'm certain that if you go to any campus you'll find more people who find girls masturbating more acceptable than guys masturbating, as opposed to the opposite. Mind you, I'm not saying there's no stigma, I'm saying the stigma is mostly kept in place by girls. I, for one, have yet to find a single guy who finds girls masturbating less acceptable than guys masturbating.


Yeah, I wasn't being hyperbolic with my statement. Most of my friends are women. One of them masturbates with relatively low amounts of shame, one with extremely high self-hatred, and the rest generally just think their bodies are gross and don't want to touch them.

I'm going to go ahead and call that a problem, and point out that who's keeping the stigma doesn't mean it's not there. I don't care that men are the primary repressors of gay men, I'm going to dismantle the attitude wherever I can.

Taking things in the other direction...
Spoiler:
Virtual_Aardvark wrote:Also way too many of the things listed as advantages for women are specific targets of the feminist movement. I can pay for my own food thanks.

I feel the need to say something here. That feminists are targeting things doesn't mean they're not examples of privilege people have by virtue of being women. That women are the less privileged class, doesn't mean that women as a whole (and individual women) don't have privileged arenas. We need to all be cognizant of our society and what we get that others don't, in addition to what others do that we don't. There ARE a lot of shitty double standards and bullshit things that men have to put up with that women don't, by virtue of their being men, and I think we need to recognize those as things that need dismantling. And I don't always think the lens of feminism is the best way to do this: It's easy to frame food money as a "women are too weak to feed themselves," but it's just as easy, and perhaps more accurate, to frame it as "men are expected to provide for others regardless of any other factor." And we need to fight unfair expectations of everyone, and recognize the sexist expectations of men, as well.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Virtual_Aardvark » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:56 am UTC

Shivahn wrote:
Virtual_Aardvark wrote:Also way too many of the things listed as advantages for women are specific targets of the feminist movement. I can pay for my own food thanks.

I feel the need to say something here. That feminists are targeting things doesn't mean they're not examples of privilege people have by virtue of being women. That women are the less privileged class, doesn't mean that women as a whole (and individual women) don't have privileged arenas. We need to all be cognizant of our society and what we get that others don't, in addition to what others do that we don't. There ARE a lot of shitty double standards and bullshit things that men have to put up with that women don't, by virtue of their being men, and I think we need to recognize those as things that need dismantling. And I don't always think the lens of feminism is the best way to do this: It's easy to frame food money as a "women are too weak to feed themselves," but it's just as easy, and perhaps more accurate, to frame it as "men are expected to provide for others regardless of any other factor." And we need to fight unfair expectations of everyone, and recognize the sexist expectations of men, as well.


I should have phrased that better. I mean that the image takes things that are big problems on both sides and turns them into advantages for women. The fact that women aren't expected to support themselves, are valued primarily for their appearance, etc is just as much a problem as men being expected to pay (incidentally this isn't women being privileged in a certain area, it's benevolent sexism). "Women don't have to be intelligent, interesting, motivated or wealthy as long as they're pretty" isn't good for us but it seems to be presented that way in the image. A lot of the examples aren't double standards, they're family-style shit sandwiches.

I often use feminism as a blanket term to include mens rights because the MRA movement has such skeevy connotations. I feel that feminism ideally looks out for men, but semantically there's obviously issues.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Hawknc » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:59 am UTC

Ryom wrote:If you feel it necessary, remove the link and explain why you took it out... Instead of throwing out insults which then becomes do as I say and not as I do.

I'm not about to censor anyone, as it isn't against the rules to post an image like that (and strictly speaking, General isn't my forum to moderate). It just drastically lowers my opinion of you, which I thought came across pretty clearly. You may not care what my opinion is, and that's fine, since I'm not posting in mod-voice my opinion holds no more weight than any other. But, if you think I've misjudged you, then I apologise and strongly recommend you put images like that in some sort of context next time, so we don't have to make assumptions.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Shivahn » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:16 am UTC

I agree broadly, but I disagree with your definition of privilege. I consider something to be a privilege if it's a benefit that a class of individuals share by virtue of their birth status. I think it makes sense to talk about female privilege - the reason I usually don't is because most of the people who would bring it up are, frankly, wrong about most things. I feel that casting it as benevolent sexism serves no real purpose other than casting women as perpetual victims and downplays real disadvantages that men face in the interest of maintaining that narrative.

(Incidentally, while the food example is not the best example of this, it's still a good one - when a man doesn't pay, do people view it as a problem because women need to have everything paid for, or do they view it as a problem because the man is so cheap/unworthy/socially inept that he's not worth her time? The focus is on the man, and when things go wrong it's treated as a personal defect of him.)

I basically struggle to see how any gaining of benefits due to the circumstances of birth that are denied to others based on their circumstances of birth can be construed as anything other than privilege, especially when it's functionally identical to other privilege, without invoking what feels like arbitrary rules on what sex you are in such a way that some class of people aren't privileged and any of their advantages aren't really advantageous.

I'm a bit tired and that may have come across as combative: if so, I'm sorry and don't mean it that way. I really do agree with you broadly, I just feel that denying class-based advantages as privilege because of their perceived source is counterproductive to a mindset dedicated to eliminating inequality altogether.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby doogly » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:25 am UTC

And I don't think it makes sense to limit privilege to birth classes. You can pick up new ones all over the place!
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Shivahn » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:35 am UTC

Gah, you're right. I didn't mean to limit it that way, I just have a tendency to think of it like that and it leaked out.

Kind of funny that a poster whose most active thread is the LGBTIQQ one is the one to forget that.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Ryom » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:52 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:
Ryom wrote:If you feel it necessary, remove the link and explain why you took it out... Instead of throwing out insults which then becomes do as I say and not as I do.

I'm not about to censor anyone, as it isn't against the rules to post an image like that (and strictly speaking, General isn't my forum to moderate). It just drastically lowers my opinion of you, which I thought came across pretty clearly. You may not care what my opinion is, and that's fine, since I'm not posting in mod-voice my opinion holds no more weight than any other. But, if you think I've misjudged you, then I apologise and strongly recommend you put images like that in some sort of context next time, so we don't have to make assumptions.


Thank you for being willing to moderate your own reaction. I'll attempt to use context should I post something potentially inflammatory in the future.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Virtual_Aardvark » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:07 am UTC

@Shivahn: Don't worry. You're not being combative in the least. Part of why I jumped on the paying for food bit was that a)There's so much wrong with the original image I didn't know where to start, and b) I'm super tired and can regurgitate that argument with a minimum of effort. I think that stuff like women being able to "upgrade" through divorce, or having the "privilege" of selling sex for survival bears more examination. I was honestly being pretty lazy in my original comment.

As far as female privilege vs. benevolent sexism goes I totally get where you're coming from. I think a lot of stuff like men being studs if they sleep with multiple women could also be phrased as benevolent sexism. Maybe this is really a semantic disagreement? I see what you mean about the term turning women into perpetual victims. I'll have to think more about that when I'm awake; you may be totally right.

Ultimately everything said in the original image is an example of why sexism sucks for all genders but is phrased in such a douchy, MRA tone that I automatically responded through a feminist lens because I felt more attacked as a woman than offended as a logical human being.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Shivahn » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:48 am UTC

To be honest, that's actually where I approached it from too (you'll note I was a little... shorter than usual with the masturbation stigma since one of the panels touched a nerve with regards to my friends.) I only started (lightly) disagreeing because of my experiences as someone assigned male at birth. It really does suck to not be able to do what you want, and to be told you can't be what you want, based on your sex. I mean, my situation is unusual of course, but I definitely noticed little things that were expected of me that felt wrong and unfair. The fact that I'm transgendered probably biases me quite a bit, actually - I've been hypersensitive to things that boys are expected to be/do partially because of the already present jealousy of girls.

Anyway, I get stuck approaching things like that too, because I at the same time want to say "Uhh... this is silly and seriously? THAT is a privilege in your book? With all the things that entails?" and also "you know, that's a good point that needs to be discussed candidly." I usually just think to myself that forcing people into boxes sucks and vow to try and be aware whenever I see it happen.

Ironically enough, things like that are places where it needs to be fought. And the douchy tone makes me pretty upset as well. So they manage to both spur me to action and give themselves as a target at the same time.

My main point is exactly yours, I think: Sexism sucks, and we need to fight it. Things like most MRA organizations and the initial image are parts of the problem, not the solution.

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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Virtual_Aardvark » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:32 am UTC

I actually had a conversation the other day with a FtM friend of mine about exactly this but in the opposite direction*. I feel pretty silly for forgetting half of what we talked about. I guess MRA+feminist+too little sleep=poorly thought out rebuttal to thing that merits discussion.

*If you're reading this "Hi Radsy!"
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby bigglesworth » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:34 am UTC

There's an interesting semantic argument to be had about privilege. If I can throw out an analogy, I personally have the privilege of being able to physically overpower a large majority of women I know at will, if I desired. That I consider the idea of me doing this abhorrent (barring a justifying context, such as self-defence) is irrelevant. Similarly the fact that the female body could be thought of as a commodity and one that there is a demand for could be thought of as a privilege, even though individual women might find utilising this fact abhorrent.

Am I making sense, or am I lost in Analogia?
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Belial » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:29 pm UTC

Ryom wrote:Unrelated to above and spoilered for tall and content (language and potential triggers)

Spoiler:
Image


Created/Emphatically-Agreed-With this graphic: You're Fucked.

Also, I think it's funny that these things are always written with the baseline assumption of a traditionally attractive woman and a traditionally unattractive man.

I mean, try the "flirting/creeper" dichotomy with a woman you find really unattractive and it just doesn't fucking apply. Same with a man who's relatively attractive. It becomes patently obvious that whatever self-pitying misogynistic fuckwad slapped this together was imagining himself for the man and whatever woman he was attracted to as the woman, and all other cases just utterly fucking escaped him.

Because unattractive women are invisible yaaaay!
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:47 pm UTC

I'm mostly just curious why you thought linking that in the Boy Thread would be productive.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Ulc » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:50 pm UTC

Ryom wrote:I'll attempt to use context should I post something potentially inflammatory in the future.


The thing is, no context beyond "this is absurd and I have to show it because I just can't believe someone would send that to anyone" can make posting that list anything but an act of undiluted asshattery. Seriously, the list is deeply offensive to everyone - some few of the points are true yes - but most of them are just nonsense, and equally offensive to men and women both.

And for the record? Almost the entire column for ladies should have the header "note: Only applies to the 5% of the female population that happen to be between 20 and 30 and is conventionally attractive".

Or to rephrase, I see nothing in that image that even remotely indicates that the author is anything by a trolling misogynist, there's nothing tongue-in-cheek about it.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Shro » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:00 pm UTC

Here's what's bothering me about this image. A lot of these things are true, but they're presented as if these things are actually privileges, when they're really not.
Let's employ a change of perspective, shall we?
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The author of this chart is upset that a female can have absolutely no personality, ambition, etc. and still be asked out/taken out on dates and actually, society rather expects that she's a vapid doll parrot human.

Flippidy-do-dah:
If a female isn't quiet, demure, attractive, she won't be successful with men. She can't show too much confidence, men will be scared off. She will never know if her man actually is into what she likes or is just entertaining her "pretty little head". She's expected to be a housewife and a mother and never achieve anything beyond that. How could she? She never went to college, she never even thought she could go. He doesn't want to know about her friends, they probably just talk about stupid girl shit anyway. She is expected to be not herself, but a vapid doll parrot human.
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Re: Boy Thread: All Roads Got Back

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:04 pm UTC

Shro wrote:Flippidy-do-dah:

Except the author is pointing to all those things you list as socially accepted, encouraged, positive qualities in women. Which is it's own bag of worms.
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