Childfree

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Re: Childfree

Postby Роберт » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:14 pm UTC

UniqueScreenname wrote:As they get older, they lose their cuteness. Without the cuteness, I don't know how much I'd be able to tolerate them. And boys are too much work. I don't have the energy to keep up with them and the things they are interested in bore me to death.

...no offense, but this post is um... well...
I'm not sure boys and girls always fit into the stereotypes as neatly as you seem to think they do.
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Re: Childfree

Postby UniqueScreenname » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:25 pm UTC

I'm aware of that. I'm just not willing to play the odds.
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Re: Childfree

Postby ShortChelsea » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:14 pm UTC

My partner says he doesn't want children unless it is 100% certain we will have a girl child. I was a little upset at first because I love children of both sexes, but then I realized that he just prefers girl children to boy children. I don't think it's sexist or wrong, just a matter of preference. Like my preference to not have kids. :D

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Re: Childfree

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:31 am UTC

If he only wanted boys, would your reaction have been the same?
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Re: Childfree

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:09 pm UTC

I have had friends who are potential mothers express the desire to have a boy or a girl over the other. I mean, i know people who've got three boys when they were trying for just one girl. What weird baggage our species has. At this point i rather expect to hear a preference in prospective parents' musings.
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Re: Childfree

Postby Wednesday » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:45 pm UTC

If I had to have a child, I'd vastly prefer it to be male. That said, holy *crap* I do not want kids of any sort ever. I am perfectly happy with my dog.

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Re: Childfree

Postby Роберт » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:51 pm UTC

Does it make me a bad person if I don't particularly care which genitalia they are born with so long as they are born healthy?
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Re: Childfree

Postby Zarq » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:56 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:Does it make me a bad person if I don't particularly care which genitalia they are born with so long as they are born healthy?


Indubitably.
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Re: Childfree

Postby Роберт » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:09 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:
Роберт wrote:Does it make me a bad person if I don't particularly care which genitalia they are born with so long as they are born healthy?


Indubitably.

Darn.
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Re: Childfree

Postby LikwidCirkel » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:29 pm UTC

I'm pretty die-hard childfree.

In my teenage years, I never really put much thought into it, because I did want companionship and figured that it might be hard to find a girl who didn't want kids.

I met a girl when I was 22 and she was 20. We hit it off and she was pretty die hard childfree. She helped me realize why it makes sense.. and it was hard not to agree.

At the age of 24, I had a vasectomy after being refused by one old incompetent patronizing doctor. To be fair, many doctors are paranoid about lawsuits, and I don't blame them. I had to go through a few consultations to help a younger more progressive doc believe I was sane and not going to blame him later.

Now I'm 31 years old and with the same girl, and we have absolutely no regrets. She is long off of the pill, and it was quite hard on her health and libido... so it would have been a bad idea to take it for decades.

Our relationship is now open, in that we primarily have each other, but have occasional encounters with friends and other people.. it's actually a pretty rare thing, and I'm not going to encourage or get into debate about such a lifestyle. I only mention it, because the vasectomy has made my girl vastly more comfortable with this.. she doesn't really have jealous issues because we have a lot of trust, but now there is no risk of me getting another girl pregnant. The analogous risk with her is less, because women have the ultimate choice when it comes to abortion.

I think it's worth mentioning, that I honestly do not believe there is any sort of tangible remote chance of vasectomy re-growth if it was performed properly. By properly, I mean:
1) It was done by a specialist, not a family doctor
2) Parts of the vas deferenes were analyzed in a lab to ensure that's what they actually are
3) The vas were cauterized properly
4) Tests were performed 6 months after to ensure it worked

The small portion of reported vasectomy failures reported can easily be explained by:
1) It wasn't performed properly, as above, and/or wasn't tested properly
2) The woman cheated and can't admit it (not at all unlikely when were' talking about < 0.1%)
3) The regrowth happened shortly after - within a year or two

I have yet to see any kind of statistical study that accounts for these things, and I still believe that vasectomy effectiveness is pretty damn near 100%, despite what doctors and researchers say. Doctors want to cover their asses, after all. Yes, this is merely my theory, and I am not a doctor.

Go for it if you're confident that you won't change your mind. People who don't want kids shouldn't have them... it's a damn no-brainer. Don't listen to insecure people try to tell you you're selfish or that there is something wrong with your choice. It's all bullshit, and they're just acting on their own insecurities. I am not a parent or child-hater in any way, but I don't like insecure, critical, presumptuous attitudes - and believe me, you'll get lots of that if you choose to live a childfree life.

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Re: Childfree

Postby setzer777 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:21 pm UTC

Yeah, that's comforting to hear. I got my vasectomy from a very well-regarded urologist in Austin, and the procedure involved removing part of the vas deferens (and they do send it to a lab to confirm) and putting titanium clips on both ends of the gap. It's silly of me to worry, because before this I was relying on the pill alone, which has a much higher failure rate than male sterilization.

Oh, and I don't think anyone here is going to argue against you regarding the validity of open relationships. I think people in LSR tend to be pretty cool with them.
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Re: Childfree

Postby ShortChelsea » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:09 pm UTC

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:If he only wanted boys, would your reaction have been the same?

Yeah. I feel like I should write more than this, but my answer is simply, "Yes."
On a different part of the topic, I hate it when people say the choice not to have kids is selfish.

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Re: Childfree

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:10 pm UTC

It's definitely being reinforced here by those who say, "I don't want to have kids because I selfishly want to focus on me during my life" and yeah, it's weird.
Babies: they don't prove you're not selfish, and not having them doesn't prove that you are.

Whether or not I'm a selfish person is completely divorced from my desire to never produce other people.
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Re: Childfree

Postby Adam H » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:23 pm UTC

ShortChelsea wrote:On a different part of the topic, I hate it when people say the choice not to have kids is selfish.
Huh, I've honestly never heard that - I suspect because I don't talk with people that are bat-shit-insane. :P

I have to imagine the sort of people that say this kind of thing are the sort that hate their kids. Right? If you like having kids, then why would you think it's selfish to give that up? So then, if you don't like your kids then maybe consider that you are a sucky parent and your kids are suffering because of it. But hey, at least you can tell yourself that you aren't selfish.
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Re: Childfree

Postby Роберт » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:33 pm UTC

You can tell them that you think having kids due to social pressure is selfish. It's more fun when everyone disapproves of everyone else's decisions and chalks them up to character flaws.
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Re: Childfree

Postby maydayp » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:01 pm UTC

personally, the initial decision to have kids is a selfish decision. But it only stays a selfish decision if you are a fairly bad/abusive parent. otherwise you become a responsible parent who puts your kids first when needed. And tries to do the juggling act.

For me, I'm being practical and selfish in deciding not to have kids. I find it selfish only 'cause I don't really wanna spend money on some one else. but that leads into the practical, I wouldn't be a good parent, I think I'd be a fairly bad one. Though hopefully not abusive (I worry that I might have too much of my mother in me and emotionally harm my kids accidentally, and not see it). I also carry several bad genetic markers, that I don't wanna pass on. mental illness runs in my family, with at least 4/7 people diagnosed with something in 2 generations (maternal). asthma and allergies run in my family, though I'm not as effected as my brother and father are. and I also carry the recessive color blindness gene, as my dad's colorblind. There is also cancer, diabetes and probably a few other things.

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Re: Childfree

Postby bluebambue » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:02 am UTC

I feel like my decision to not have children is selfish. It doesn't mean that I can't be selfless in other areas of my life. But not wanting to have kids because I put my wants over the wants of my hypothetical children, I think that's selfish.

I also don't think that selfishness is the evil that it is generally made out to be.

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Re: Childfree

Postby setzer777 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:12 am UTC

Yeah, it's selfish in a trivial sense. But every hour of every day could be spent helping other people, or adopting animals, or picking up litter. I don't see why not procreating is singled out, especially since the alternative to the help you give hypothetical children is just never existing in the first place.
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Re: Childfree

Postby Thesh » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:28 am UTC

bluebambue wrote:I feel like my decision to not have children is selfish. It doesn't mean that I can't be selfless in other areas of my life. But not wanting to have kids because I put my wants over the wants of my hypothetical children, I think that's selfish.

I also don't think that selfishness is the evil that it is generally made out to be.


Hypothetical people are not people, therefore it is not selfish at all to not want kids. You are right that selfishness is not evil or good, it depends on the specific situation. If two people are in a relationship and one person wanted kids and they other didn't, then they are both being selfish. However, if the person who doesn't want kids forces their point of view on the other, it is not morally wrong, if the person who does want kids forces their point of view on the other, it is morally wrong. In my opinion (which is factually correct), of course.

Morality is just a series of logic gates.
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Re: Childfree

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:50 am UTC

That's misleading.

Everything is just a series of logic gates.
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Re: Childfree

Postby Anna-X » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:53 pm UTC

Kids are highly overrated. Except mine, of course.

Anyway, replicating #253 with Dublo Lego it's kinda fun.

Jorpho wrote:
UniqueScreenname wrote:Funny, I lose all interest in a kid after the age of four. Then they start talking too much and getting not cute.
Seriously? When they are smelly, screaming, messy, and uncontrollable? Well, to each their own.


FYI: They don't stop being smelly, screaming, messy, and uncontrollable at age 4...

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Re: Childfree

Postby ShortChelsea » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:06 pm UTC

I agree-I know some college aged people who are still sticky and scream all the time.
RE: Selfishness-When I talk to other adults about it (mostly those who have had kids or are planning on it) they make it seem as though not having children is denying the world something amazing, such as a future messiah, or someone who will cure cancer, not that I'm a selfish person for not wanting to care for other beings the rest of my life. I generally disagree-at best my hypothetical kids would be really cool people who contribute to the world in small ways, at worst filthy layabouts. I think these people overestimate my genetics and parenting skills.

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Re: Childfree

Postby AngrySquirrel » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:43 pm UTC

I don't mind kids. In fact I quite often get along far better with them than with adults cause we've got much the same attention span and willingness to be silly as fuck. However, I can barely take care of myself, it would be pure lunacy to expect me to take care of another person as well. Hell, I consider a cat too much responsibility for me to handle.
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Re: Childfree

Postby Belial » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:53 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:Does it make me a bad person if I don't particularly care which genitalia they are born with so long as they are born healthy?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbTB3ASkdOo

0:34.
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Re: Childfree

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:21 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Роберт wrote:Does it make me a bad person if I don't particularly care which genitalia they are born with so long as they are born healthy?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbTB3ASkdOo

0:34.
Did you post the right link, boyo?
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Re: Childfree

Postby Belial » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:47 pm UTC

Of course I did. Don't be preposterous.
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Re: Childfree

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:52 pm UTC

I can now see past Goldstein's lies
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Re: Childfree

Postby Роберт » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:52 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Роберт wrote:Does it make me a bad person if I don't particularly care which genitalia they are born with so long as they are born healthy?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbTB3ASkdOo

0:34.

I meant that I would prefer my children to not be intersex.
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Re: Childfree

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:27 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:Yeah, it's selfish in a trivial sense. But every hour of every day could be spent helping other people, or adopting animals, or picking up litter. I don't see why not procreating is singled out, especially since the alternative to the help you give hypothetical children is just never existing in the first place.

That's a good point. I could be selfish in not wanting to have kids. My self is pretty important and doesn't want a baby in it.
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Re: Childfree

Postby DaveInsurgent » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:41 pm UTC

Seems unnecessary to 'identify' with such a thing.

Any combination of want kids/have kids/changed your mind? is pretty much a day-by-day thing. Trying to put the label on yourself just sounds like you're still in high-school. I try to learn things about people through dialogue and possibly cyber-stalking, not through whatever jumble of words they've used to try to carve out an identity (their usually wrong, poseurs, or just confused). Any time something is spun in to a label/movement I have to wonder what other motives are behind it. You don't have kids. I do. That may change (for either of us, really). At what point is it no longer a mere statement about your current state of being, and instead some thing you're trying to adhere to?

Whenever I think of identifying with a particular thing, I can only think of a bunch of ways it gets misused. "Does anyone else identify as masculine?" -- at what point does that stop being a mere observation about the fact that you cut down trees and kill animals for sport, and start preventing you from enjoying something else that is not 'identified' as masculine? That's a fairly common stereotype and it is so because it happens, a lot.

Is it possible that you're attempting to simplify some part of your self-discovery by picking up terms? Might I suggest that you don't bother - for all the time I spent with a mohawk and a trenchcoat and concerning myself with which music was "real" and what wasn't, it really doesn't amount to anything. You can wake up one day and like pop music and cashmere sweaters. Who you are has noting to do with what you like, and that includes children or the fact that you currently don't (or do) have them. Is it sensible for me to identify as "pet-free"?

The term might also be there to help you feel alright with your choice in the face of pressure. I don't know where you live, but I've never encountered anybody that wasn't a stupid drone that actually thought you had to have kids. My parents wanted grand children, I told them there was absolutely no way, ever, that they would ever see a living creature related to me. A few years went by and I changed my mind. Other than that (and they're not exactly open minded people), everywhere I go it usually goes more like "Do you have kids?", "No, I don't", "Oh, okay" - not "What? How come? You're so old!" and so on. It goes the other way too, "Hey, do you want to get together Saturday?", "Sorry, I'd like to but I have something planned with the family.", "Oh, okay then." ... simple. I've only ever heard the complete dredges of the cubicle farm even begin to make those kind of judgmental assertions, and those are far from their only transgressions of close-mindedness. So my point with this, is, if it is about feeling 'depressurized', are you sure that it is even a real thing at this point? If so, then don't surround yourself with those people. I don't know any parents that think having kids was mandatory or their best idea. It's a compromise of values an ideals. The only time it becomes a problem is when either side attempts to assert that they're somehow superior for their decision.

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Re: Childfree

Postby Jorpho » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:37 pm UTC

DaveInsurgent wrote:Trying to put the label on yourself just sounds like you're still in high-school. I try to learn things about people through dialogue and possibly cyber-stalking, not through whatever jumble of words they've used to try to carve out an identity (their usually wrong, poseurs, or just confused). Any time something is spun in to a label/movement I have to wonder what other motives are behind it.
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Re: Childfree

Postby Belial » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:52 pm UTC

I think imagining oneself to be "above" labels and raising one's nose haughtily whensoever they're presented is only one (largely imaginary) maturity-step above the sort of label-obsession you're wanking about. To say nothing about the fact that it rather misses the point of language (hint: all words are labels).

Labels. They apply sometimes. When they apply, they sometimes make really useful shorthand for a somewhat more elaborate position, view, or trait. Use them when they fit, discard them when they do not, clarify them when necessary. Ye gods.
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Re: Childfree

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:10 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I think imagining oneself to be "above" labels and raising one's nose haughtily whensoever they're presented is only one (largely imaginary) maturity-step above the sort of label-obsession you're wanking about. To say nothing about the fact that it rather misses the point of language (hint: all words are labels).

Labels. They apply sometimes. When they apply, they sometimes make really useful shorthand for a somewhat more elaborate position, view, or trait. Use them when they fit, discard them when they do not, clarify them when necessary. Ye gods.


If I understand his post correcly he was not annoyed with the labels per se but people entirely defining themselves by them.

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Re: Childfree

Postby Belial » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:13 am UTC

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt by assuming he was complaining about a behaviour anyone actually does.
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Re: Childfree

Postby DaveInsurgent » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:39 am UTC

It's a good thing you pointed out all words are labels.

There's a difference between describing (labeling) something, and something as an external thing that you then "identify with". You missed the entire point about adherence to a label after it has expired as a side effect of attemping to identify with something in the first place.

You don't have kids. There's no need for a movement.

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Re: Childfree

Postby Wednesday » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:42 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Belial wrote:I think imagining oneself to be "above" labels and raising one's nose haughtily whensoever they're presented is only one (largely imaginary) maturity-step above the sort of label-obsession you're wanking about. To say nothing about the fact that it rather misses the point of language (hint: all words are labels).

Labels. They apply sometimes. When they apply, they sometimes make really useful shorthand for a somewhat more elaborate position, view, or trait. Use them when they fit, discard them when they do not, clarify them when necessary. Ye gods.


If I understand his post correcly he was not annoyed with the labels per se but people entirely defining themselves by them.



He is basically bitching about something that only applies to people still in highschool. Labels aren't a huge deal once you get over the wankfest that is everyone bitching about the people bitching about people using them.

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Re: Childfree

Postby Belial » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:35 am UTC

Man, I'll have a movement about whatever the hell I want.

There was a longer post here, but it really just boiled down to that. Beer makes me concise.
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Re: Childfree

Postby DaveInsurgent » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:50 am UTC

Wednesday wrote:He is basically bitching about something that only applies to people still in highschool. Labels aren't a huge deal once you get over the wankfest that is everyone bitching about the people bitching about people using them.


Yep, it's not like labels are used at all in say, politics, to both identify with and stereotype others in to neat little things like 'liberal'/'conservative' or 'republican'/'democrat' and it doesn't in any way coerce people in to thinking about issues in a partisan (read: labelled) manner instead of logically, rationally or scientifically. Nope, only people in high-school think about stuff like that. Adults don't make purchases of things like clothing or vehicles or even literature based on some degree of adherence that is heavily targetted and marketed to. Everything you buy, say and do is absolutely unique and unpredictable and totally not to do with how you identify yourself. There's nothing to be gained about understanding or appreciating how people - or yourself - label, identify and associate with things. Your book collection doesn't say anything about the kind of persona you're trying to project.

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Re: Childfree

Postby Belial » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:03 am UTC

Image

Look what you made me do. You made me post the comic.
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Re: Childfree

Postby DaveInsurgent » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:07 am UTC

It's cool when we agree.


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