Car horns

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Davidy
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Re: Car horns

Postby Davidy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:38 am UTC

Trying to discuss common sense driving techniques with you guys is like trying to discuss gun control measures with the NRA. You're so enmeshed with your biases that any other concept is simply so foreign as to be incomprehensible.

You're arguing that there are valid reasons to use your car horn. I have allowed that there are just a few instances where this is necessary. The thrust of my argument is that most cases where a horn is being used could be avoided by better driving techniques and thereby avoiding the use of the horn.

Most of the responses you've made point to merging or lane change errors to be a major problem requiring a horn use. The NITS reports that these type of incidents account for 5% of all vehicular accidents. While this is a problem, it isn't a major problem in the grand scheme of things. So, how to alleviate this problem? Be aware of what is on the road ahead, behind and to each side of your car. Maintain the recommended separation between you and the car ahead of one car length for every 10 MPH. Stay in the right lane except to pass or to make a left turn. If someone is following too close behind you, pull over and let him pass. Maintain the posted speed limit. Adjust your side mirrors so that your blind spots are minimized (your inside mirror covers about 60 degrees, your convex right mirror about the same and your lefr mirror about 45 degrees. If these are adjusted so there is no overlap that gives you 165 degrees. That, plus your periphial vision and turning your head slightly gives you full coverage behind and to both sides.) Don't position your car in what is another car's blind spot - either back off or move forward as soon as possible. You're not required to yield to a merging car but it is polite to do so if you can do so safely; blowing your horn does nothing. If you can't move over then slow down and let the merger in.

Another reported annoyance is bicycles. While I disagree with many tactics of bicyclists - running stop signs or red lights, changing lanes without signal, riding between lines of stopped traffic, etc - they are legally entitled to use the road. They are more than aware that they're sharing the road with other vehicles that outweigh them by a factor of 10 or more. They know you're there; you don't need to let them know. Just pass when able and go on your way.

Pedestrians are another problem. Quite a few get run over every year, many in crosswalks where, like it or not, they have the right of way, even when the light is against them. Your horn won't change that. Jaywalkers are another problem, albeit it a smaller one. They don't have the right of way but if you run one down you may wind up paying. If you feel it necessary to warn them, be my guest. Or you could just slow down or stop and let them go on their merry drunken way.

You can come up with any number of imaginative scenarios where you might think the use of a horn is the only way out but in truth, you can simply avoid those situations and not put yourself in danger. You can let events control you or you can control them. It's all up to you.

By the way, I couldn't care less if you blow your horns all day long. I'm only saying I don't do it, it isn't necessary, and in many cases is simply an unproductive display of anger or frustration.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Adacore » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:54 am UTC

It is indeed inappropriate to use the horn for pedestrians at a crosswalk, or cyclists that are difficult to pass. Most of the posters in this thread have stated that they find it necessary to use the horn only once every few months, if that - you seem to be implying that we're all driving with one hand on the horn, honking at any minor irritation. Some people do drive like that, and I think 'most everyone here is in agreement that those people are annoying idiots and are doing it wrong (and, incidentally, also making the roads less safe, by lessening the impact of a horn being used in a situation that is actually dangerous, where it is important that people take notice).

But, Davidy, you mostly seem to be missing the entire point of the horn - it is to warn people who are not aware that your car is there. Whether or not you can, through defensive or skillful driving, avoid the people who, for whatever reason, lack this knowledge is not really material to the debate - the roads are significantly, indisputably safer if those people are aware that your car exists in a range of cases which have been detailed.

Also, I would note that 5% of all vehicular accidents is a huge number of accidents. There are something in excess of 5 million vehicular accidents per year, worldwide, so 5% of that would be two hundred and fifty thousand accidents. But we're also missing something here, because that's the number of lane-change error type accidents that occur with horns installed in all the cars. Without the horns, I am fairly confident that that number would skyrocket.
Last edited by Adacore on Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:57 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Car horns

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:56 am UTC

Davidy wrote:By the way, I couldn't care less if you blow your horns all day long. I'm only saying I don't do it, it isn't necessary, and in many cases is simply an unproductive display of anger or frustration.

Yes, I agree. It is rarely necessary to honk one's horn. This makes horn-honking very much unlike most of the things I have done today, such as going to CVS1, buying pretzels2, and reading a chapter of Anthony Kenny's The Five Ways3.

Thank you for your eloquent defense of this interesting and provocative thesis.

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Re: Car horns

Postby Steax » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:42 am UTC

Just to be clear, this is my issue with what you're saying:

Davidy wrote:You're arguing that there are valid reasons to use your car horn. I have allowed that there are just a few instances where this is necessary.

... these type of incidents account for 5% of all vehicular accidents. While this is a problem, it isn't a major problem in the grand scheme of things.


First of all, 5% of a million deaths annually is a big number.

And you say you "allow", but...

Davidy wrote:And even those happen so infrequently that I think manufacturers could just eliminate the horn altogether and save a few hundred dollars per car.


... you dismiss your allowed exceptions by saying they don't happen often...

Davidy wrote: In the last 15 years I was on the road 2-4 days every week, traveling 100-250 miles a day. There is absolutely no driving or traffic condition that I have not encountered numerous times.


Davidy wrote:
JudeMorrigan wrote:What do you do when you're in traffic with someone following closely enough that you cannot safely brake quickly and have someone else attempt to merge into you?


I doubt that anyone here has actually had it happen


... because you blindly assume these things don't happen because you've never experienced them yourself.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that there are inconsiderate times to use the horn. I'm just appalled at how easily you hand-wave dismiss the fact that millions of accidents happen annually - and many more unnoticed or untracked once - that can be helped by using it. You can campaign that people need to know when to and when not to use it, I absolutely agree. It's your stance of "well, accidents never happen anyway, and when they do it's because the person is a bad driver so it's their fault, hence let's just remove those horns" that gets me. And you are still hand-waving it now:

Davidy wrote:account for 5% of all vehicular accidents. While this is a problem, it isn't a major problem in the grand scheme of things.


Because hundreds of thousand of deaths - which, as Adacore mentioned, are current stats, not including those where the horn helped - in which I personally know at least 3 instances - isn't a major problem, is it?

My second issue is your dismissal of the need of the horn as an emergency device by saying people should just learn defensive driving. Everyone learning and mastering defensive driving would be great, yes, and it'd cut down on casualties. But that doesn't negate the need for an accident-necessary emergency device for the same reason we haven't removed aircraft seat belts or life vests: a theoretical solution that hopes to fix things is almost never 100% effective - and there's still much to gain by providing an emergency tool for the times it fails. They're called accidents.

(Do note that I agree horns should only be used in emergencies.)

Please tell me where I misread you.
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Re: Car horns

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:03 am UTC

Davidy wrote:You can come up with any number of imaginative scenarios where you might think the use of a horn is the only way out but in truth, you can simply avoid those situations and not put yourself in danger. You can let events control you or you can control them. It's all up to you.
So, concerning that one-lane tunnel near where I live with the sign out front of it that says "HONK BEFORE ENTERING"...

You're suggesting that instead of honking my horn before entering, I should just seize control of events and drive down into the tunnel?

(I like how 'taking control' involves me breaking the law)
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:09 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Car horns

Postby poxic » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:09 am UTC

YOLO like a boss, dude.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Deva » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:13 am UTC

poxic wrote:YOLO like a boss, dude.

Except cats. Lives another eight lifetimes in your dreams. Pesters you for attention there too.
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Re: Car horns

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:25 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Davidy wrote:You can come up with any number of imaginative scenarios where you might think the use of a horn is the only way out but in truth, you can simply avoid those situations and not put yourself in danger. You can let events control you or you can control them. It's all up to you.
So, concerning that one-lane tunnel near where I live with the sign out front of it that says "HONK BEFORE ENTERING"...

You're suggesting that instead of honking my horn before entering, I should just seize control of events and drive down into the tunnel?

(I like how 'taking control' involves me breaking the law)

You can let laws control you...

or you can become omnipotent.
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Re: Car horns

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:45 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:You can let laws control you...

or you can become omnipotent.


LIKE

A
Spoiler:
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Re: Car horns

Postby Adacore » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:49 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
LIKE

A
Spoiler:
Image
BOSS

That's terrible driving. He should've sounded his horn to warn other roadusers that he was going to plummet unexpectedly from the sky onto the road.

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Re: Car horns

Postby phlip » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:51 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Davidy wrote:You can come up with any number of imaginative scenarios where you might think the use of a horn is the only way out but in truth, you can simply avoid those situations and not put yourself in danger. You can let events control you or you can control them. It's all up to you.
So, concerning that one-lane tunnel near where I live with the sign out front of it that says "HONK BEFORE ENTERING"...

You're suggesting that instead of honking my horn before entering, I should just seize control of events and drive down into the tunnel?

(I like how 'taking control' involves me breaking the law)

Nonono, see, that would be driving aggressively. A truly defensive driver would never put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation, like being in a tunnel where they don't know what's at the other end. So you should stop and wait at the entrance to the tunnel until such a time as you can see the far end of the tunnel and see that the way is clear, and then drive through. No horn necessary.

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Re: Car horns

Postby poxic » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:52 am UTC

The fact that you'd be waiting for parts of the surrounding landscape and/or structure to collapse (to afford visibility) is of no concern.

Or, instead, one could wait for all other motor vehicles to cease operating so one can't surprise you coming the other way while you're halfway through. Because, of course, no other vehicle should use its horn, either.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Davidy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:26 am UTC

For those of you who feel the need to continue this I would suggest that you re-read the first two paragraphs of my Jan 16 post. Get your heads out of your butts and try to apply whatever cognitive powers you can muster to what I actually wrote. It's pretty clear and concise and there's nothing to be read into it, other than what I have said.

As for those of you who feel the need to focus on my 5% comment, re-read the first three sentences of the third paragraph. Yes, the raw numbers represented by 5% are huge, but they are nowhere near the numbers representing the other 95% of accidents.

My mistake was that I assumed that the readers and fans of xkcd possessed at least a modicum of intellectual capacity. I see I was mistaken.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:30 am UTC

No guys, you're going too far. A real Davidy solution to the tunnel problem is much more realistic: know in advance by a detailed study of a brand new (so up-to-date) road map that there is such a poorly designed tunnel there, and then don't drive that road. If frequently necessary to drive that road to reach your destination efficiently, engage in the relevant political process to have the tunnel corrected to one of a more sane design. Until then, take whatever detours necessary or don't travel to destinations requiring you take that route.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Steax » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:40 am UTC

I, on the other hand, have a solution.

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Re: Car horns

Postby poxic » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:44 am UTC

Does the elephant have a trumpet installed?
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Re: Car horns

Postby Steax » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:45 am UTC

Yes... But not where you'd expect it to be.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Carlington » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:55 am UTC

Davidy wrote:For those of you who feel the need to continue this I would suggest that you re-read the first two paragraphs of my Jan 16 post. Get your heads out of your butts and try to apply whatever cognitive powers you can muster to what I actually wrote. It's pretty clear and concise and there's nothing to be read into it, other than what I have said.

As for those of you who feel the need to focus on my 5% comment, re-read the first three sentences of the third paragraph. Yes, the raw numbers represented by 5% are huge, but they are nowhere near the numbers representing the other 95% of accidents.

My mistake was that I assumed that the readers and fans of xkcd possessed at least a modicum of intellectual capacity. I see I was mistaken.

I'm still taking this seriously, but I honestly am confused by your stance in this thread. Ideally, everybody would be well-versed in defensive driving - I think this is the point you're making, that as long as everybody drives defensively, there is no problem. However, this is patently untrue, and impractical to enforce - there will always be people on the road who do not drive defensively. Even if there weren't, I think 5% is sufficient to require a safety device to help prevent it.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Steax » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:10 am UTC

I'm rather not taking him seriously because he told us to re-read the first 3 sentences of the 3rd paragraph, which I believe is...

Davidy wrote:Most of the responses you've made point to merging or lane change errors to be a major problem requiring a horn use. The NITS reports that these type of incidents account for 5% of all vehicular accidents. While this is a problem, it isn't a major problem in the grand scheme of things.


So basically he's just repeating himself. Again. While saying 5% of a few million deaths a year isn't an issue. Also, can I please have a link to that report?

And yeah, even if everyone drives defensively, accidents happen. Mechanical failures. A shopping cart rolls off a loading bay. Kid wanders in front of a car. And all sorts of external issues you just can't fix with any kind of driving technique.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Carlington » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:26 am UTC

I know where you're coming from, Steax. And, of course, what you say is 100% correct. However, I'm a sucker for giving people the benefit of the doubt and doing everything I can to help them understand my points, whenever possible.
I spent a few years training myself to ALWAYS consider the viewpoint of the person/s I am discussing with - their window on the world will always be different to mine, and only by understanding that and trying to see things their way can I frame my points in a manner that is relatable to them.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Steax » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:29 am UTC

Yeah, and I kinda want to see where that's coming from too. That's why I want to see the report as well... At least it could add a bit of weight to the argument, perhaps.

(The other reason I'm not taking him seriously is because he's trying to insult us. But then again I'm not an xkcd reader and I'm a fan of the general community (not that the comics are bad), so maybe that doesn't incude me...)
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Re: Car horns

Postby Davidy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:09 am UTC

Steax wrote:I'm rather not taking him seriously because he told us to re-read the first 3 sentences of the 3rd paragraph, which I believe is...

Davidy wrote:Most of the responses you've made point to merging or lane change errors to be a major problem requiring a horn use. The NITS reports that these type of incidents account for 5% of all vehicular accidents. While this is a problem, it isn't a major problem in the grand scheme of things.


So basically he's just repeating himself. Again. While saying 5% of a few million deaths a year isn't an issue. Also, can I please have a link to that report?

And yeah, even if everyone drives defensively, accidents happen. Mechanical failures. A shopping cart rolls off a loading bay. Kid wanders in front of a car. And all sorts of external issues you just can't fix with any kind of driving technique.


I'm not repeating myself, I'm just asking that you read and try to understand what I did say. I'm not trying to insult anyone but it is rather frustrating when I say one thing (and you show the quote) but then say I said something else. Kindly show me where I said " While saying 5% of a few million deaths a year isn't an issue."

Here's where I got the 5% from:

http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/jpodocs/repts_te/420.pdf
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Re: Car horns

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:13 am UTC

You said it isn't a major problem. It's right there in the quote. Qualifying it with "in the grand scheme of things" doesn't change the meaning much. You know, in the grand scheme of things.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Steax » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:35 am UTC

Davidy wrote:
Steax wrote:I'm rather not taking him seriously because he told us to re-read the first 3 sentences of the 3rd paragraph, which I believe is...

Davidy wrote:Most of the responses you've made point to merging or lane change errors to be a major problem requiring a horn use. The NITS reports that these type of incidents account for 5% of all vehicular accidents. While this is a problem, it isn't a major problem in the grand scheme of things.


So basically he's just repeating himself. Again. While saying 5% of a few million deaths a year isn't an issue. Also, can I please have a link to that report?

And yeah, even if everyone drives defensively, accidents happen. Mechanical failures. A shopping cart rolls off a loading bay. Kid wanders in front of a car. And all sorts of external issues you just can't fix with any kind of driving technique.


I'm not repeating myself, I'm just asking that you read and try to understand what I did say. I'm not trying to insult anyone but it is rather frustrating when I say one thing (and you show the quote) but then say I said something else. Kindly show me where I said " While saying 5% of a few million deaths a year isn't an issue."

Here's where I got the 5% from:

http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/jpodocs/repts_te/420.pdf


Simply telling someone to re-read is an extremely unhelpful way to get a message across. To repeat SlyReaper, I read "isn't a major issue in the grand scheme of things" as a dismissal. And then you promptly return to your "preventive measures" that aren't 100% effective (because no preventive measure is).

It's also worth noting that your study comes from 1994 with data from 1991, and the number of cars are tremendously different nowadays. I imagine this would change the statistics, and I'll actually see if I can dig anything up.

Here's something funny: this link claims that 93% of all accidents are caused by driver distraction - and horns are made to grab driver attention. 40% are due to intoxication - something that any amount of defensive driving can't save you against, while an alert driver honking loud to inform other drivers could avoid pileups. Not all of these cases could have been helped or were helped with a horn, but I do see its potential as an attention-grabber.

Edit: There's also a lot of juicy data here. Of course, it's hard to pull a straight correlation since horns could be useful in all sorts of scenarios, but there's a lot to look at. Merging isn't the only time critical lapses in judgement can occur.
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Re: Car horns

Postby bentheimmigrant » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:16 am UTC

Davidy wrote:For those of you who feel the need to continue this I would suggest that you re-read the first two paragraphs of my Jan 16 post. Get your heads out of your butts and try to apply whatever cognitive powers you can muster to what I actually wrote. It's pretty clear and concise and there's nothing to be read into it, other than what I have said.

As for those of you who feel the need to focus on my 5% comment, re-read the first three sentences of the third paragraph. Yes, the raw numbers represented by 5% are huge, but they are nowhere near the numbers representing the other 95% of accidents.

My mistake was that I assumed that the readers and fans of xkcd possessed at least a modicum of intellectual capacity. I see I was mistaken.

So, let me see... You start a thread, stating your opinion based on your experience as a sample size of one, claiming to have experienced all of the infinite possibilities that one could face while driving in (from what I can tell) only one of the many countries represented on these boards, demand that we all acknowledge said opinion as fact, ignore people who present occasions where they use their horn as a last resort with positive results, such as myself, The Great Hippo and bluebambue, and then accuse us of having our collective heads up our butts and declare that we lack intelligence.

Well played, troll. Well played.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Felstaff » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:54 am UTC

You know what's not a major issue in the grand scheme of things? Car horns.

They're just, like, there, man. We're all part of a car horn culture. We're so enmeshed with our pro-horn biases that any other concept is simply so foreign as to be incomprehensible to us. Imagine a world without car horns! We'd just have to become infallible human beings, I suppose, and develop extra senses, like the foresight to detect black ice before our car hits it, or the ability to detect when a child is about to run onto the road, or an adult for that matter, or the power to warn people who are currently out of sight around a sharp bend on a narrow country lane of our presence, so we both can continue negotiating the corner with extra care, safe in the knowledge that both parties are aware of each other's presence, as not all roads are equal, you know - many hundreds of thousands of miles of roads are simply dangerous and not optimally safe, due to lack of maintenance, poor planning, meteorological occurrences or geographical barriers, which I presume we'll develop the ability to control. Perhaps a weather machine. Or an anti-erosion device to stop pesky Mother Nature from interfering with man-made structures so damn much. Of course, being that we're all infallible human beings now incapable of making errors, we'll never need to warn people that they haven't noticed our presence when attempting to change lane, or to alert erstwhile distracted people that they are blocking the way, or that another driver is distracted enough to not know the light is green, the barriers are open, they are about to enter a no-entry route, etc., etc.

Or... we could all stop giving so much of a fuck and realise that this is a ridiculous, although entertaining, non-issue, and that horns are necessary, if only as a warning of danger. Seeing as danger comes in more than three forms, it's safe to conclude that there are more than three legitimate uses of the horn. Cars are death traps, and horns are safety warnings attached to these huge, unwieldy metal missiles capable of causing immense destruction, particularly to that most squishy of collision factors; peepleses.

Why would anyone advocate taking the safety/warning device off something so destructive? It would be like taking the 'wearing this cape does not enable user to fly' label off - the death toll would rise exponentially.
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Re: Car horns

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:02 pm UTC

Why should I bother learning to drive defensively when I already have a car horn?
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Re: Car horns

Postby Steax » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:11 pm UTC

Because they're not replacements for each other? Driving defensively is a pre-emptive technique to reduce the chances of getting in an accident, while the horn (as a warning device) is used once an accident is imminent/underway as a last-ditch tool to alert other people.

Or am I missing a sarcasm tag or something?
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Re: Car horns

Postby Hawknc » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:28 pm UTC

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:Why should I bother learning to drive defensively when I already have a car horn?

That is remarkably close to the actual attitude of drivers in some parts of the world.

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Re: Car horns

Postby phlip » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:30 pm UTC

Steax wrote:Or am I missing a sarcasm tag or something?

It's TMT. If anything you should expect a not-sarcasm tag when she's being serious.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

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Re: Car horns

Postby Steax » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:30 pm UTC

I guessed as much, but I was afraid Davidy would actually take it as support.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Red Hal » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:14 pm UTC

Davidy wrote:Trying to discuss common sense driving techniques with you guys is like trying to discuss gun control measures with the NRA. You're so enmeshed with your biases that any other concept is simply so foreign as to be incomprehensible.
That is not the premise with which you started the thread.

With your (self-avowed complete) experience, please tell me when you encountered the following, and what you did instead of using your horn:

Flock of sheep blocking road and not moving,
Sound-operated gate,
Pedestrian crossing a level-crossing in front of you while you are parked up waiting for the train to cross; seemingly unaware of the approaching train.
You are operating an ice-cream van, and wish to let children in the area know that you have arrived.


Of course proper driving technique can eliminate many potential issues without recourse to the horn, but there are occasions when its use is the most effective course of action. You have said as much, and most people here have agreed, adding to the list of valid occasions. I do not understand why you are still arguing with people who by-and-large appear to agree with your points.

Additionally, Davidy, you seem far too ready to accuse others of bullheadedness, cranio-rectal insertion, and stupidity; I sincerely hope that you do not display this attitude while driving.
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Re: Car horns

Postby JudeMorrigan » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:27 pm UTC

Davidy wrote:You're so enmeshed with your biases that any other concept is simply so foreign as to be incomprehensible.

Physician, heal thyself!

Most of the responses you've made point to merging or lane change errors to be a major problem requiring a horn use. The NITS reports that these type of incidents account for 5% of all vehicular accidents. While this is a problem, it isn't a major problem in the grand scheme of things.

No, seriously. 5% of all vehicular accidents is a ton of accidents.

So, how to alleviate this problem? Be aware of what is on the road ahead, behind and to each side of your car. Maintain the recommended separation between you and the car ahead of one car length for every 10 MPH. Stay in the right lane except to pass or to make a left turn. If someone is following too close behind you, pull over and let him pass. Maintain the posted speed limit. Adjust your side mirrors so that your blind spots are minimized (your inside mirror covers about 60 degrees, your convex right mirror about the same and your lefr mirror about 45 degrees. If these are adjusted so there is no overlap that gives you 165 degrees. That, plus your periphial vision and turning your head slightly gives you full coverage behind and to both sides.) Don't position your car in what is another car's blind spot - either back off or move forward as soon as possible.


Yes, there's all sorts of things that one can, and should to to minimize the chances of these accidents. Noone at any point in this thread has suggested otherwise.

You're not required to yield to a merging car but it is polite to do so if you can do so safely; blowing your horn does nothing.

Except that that is demonstrably untrue. Several people have related instances where blowing their horn did, in fact, prevent an accident.

If you can't move over then slow down and let the merger in.

And several people have related instances where that was not a particularly practical option. Stop telling us we're liars, please.

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Re: Car horns

Postby Chen » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:21 pm UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:
Most of the responses you've made point to merging or lane change errors to be a major problem requiring a horn use. The NITS reports that these type of incidents account for 5% of all vehicular accidents. While this is a problem, it isn't a major problem in the grand scheme of things.

No, seriously. 5% of all vehicular accidents is a ton of accidents.


I'm not even sure why this 5% number keeps being thrown around. The premise put forth was that horns help prevent this type of accident. But the number was determined using the real world cases WHERE WE HAVE HORNS. Is the reason its only 5% of the accidents instead of 50% because we have horns? Would the number be 5% if there were no horns anyways? There's no real way to tell so the number itself is just a red herring in this discussion. It has no real value in determining whether or not horn use helps prevent this type of accident. It was a good distraction though since practically everyone latched on to it after it was mentioned...that's some good trolling on the OPs part.

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Re: Car horns

Postby Steax » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:30 pm UTC

I'm just amused at how he brings up 5% (of millions of annual deaths) and goes "meh, not a big deal in the grand scheme of things".
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Re: Car horns

Postby philsov » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:18 pm UTC

Steax wrote:I'm just amused at how he brings up 5% (of millions of annual deaths) and goes "meh, not a big deal in the grand scheme of things".


Someone else's death is secondary to my own eardrum not being temporarily agitated.

Other people have horrible priorities. Death? Psh.
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Re: Car horns

Postby Azrael » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:41 pm UTC

Davidy wrote:Most of the responses you've made point to merging or lane change errors to be a major problem requiring a horn use. The NITS reports that these type of incidents account for 5% of all vehicular accidents. While this is a problem, it isn't a major problem in the grand scheme of things.

While the study puts the number at 5% of vehicular accidents, it does nothing to capture the amount of near misses that are due to lane change errors. Some portion of those near misses don't become accidents because of the use of a horn.

While that number is not readily quantifiable, you don't get to fudge statistics by claiming a low incident rate invalidates the need for one of the preventative measures that contributes to achieving the low incident rate.

Maintain the recommended separation between you and the car ahead of one car length for every 10 MPH.

At which point I thoroughly question your exposure to traffic. This is made physically impossible on highly congested roads both by the behavior of other drivers, and by nature of roads operating above design capacity.

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Re: Car horns

Postby JudeMorrigan » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:45 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:
Davidy wrote:Maintain the recommended separation between you and the car ahead of one car length for every 10 MPH.

At which point I thoroughly question your exposure to traffic. This is made physically impossible on highly congested roads both by the behavior of other drivers, and by nature of roads operating above design capacity.

God help him if he ever has to drive on 610 in Houston. Actually, God help anyone who has to do it, but between the way you get boxed in immediately and the number of exits on the left, it seems like he'd find it particularly vexsome. (In fairness, it's been a decade since I've had to do it myself. Maybe it's improved since then. I'm guessing not though.)

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Re: Car horns

Postby philsov » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:27 pm UTC

Maybe it's improved since then.


Not a chance :(.
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Re: Car horns

Postby DSenette » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:45 pm UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:
Azrael wrote:
Davidy wrote:Maintain the recommended separation between you and the car ahead of one car length for every 10 MPH.

At which point I thoroughly question your exposure to traffic. This is made physically impossible on highly congested roads both by the behavior of other drivers, and by nature of roads operating above design capacity.

God help him if he ever has to drive on 610 in Houston. Actually, God help anyone who has to do it, but between the way you get boxed in immediately and the number of exits on the left, it seems like he'd find it particularly vexsome. (In fairness, it's been a decade since I've had to do it myself. Maybe it's improved since then. I'm guessing not though.)

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