Neverwinter (MMO)

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Zcorp
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Tue May 21, 2013 3:18 am UTC

Enokh wrote:But the vibe I'm rather strongly getting from you is that, because they're doing these things, this makes them evil or sociopaths or whatever (this assumption comes from your comment about business ethics and society-building). And if this was a company who, I don't know, ran the water supply for a city or was involved in some other critical market, I'd be on board with this. But they aren't. They have an online game based off of Dungeons and Dragons. And that isn't important.
No, i think they are doing it because they are incompetent. Which is really shitty for their combat designers, because they are very quality. The people creating the business model I'm sure imagine this is the best way for them to make money, which aside from being wrong (thus their incompetence) they are also doing it in a mean way.

Now, I'm all for talking about how their business model is less liked by you, or anyone, as compared to another company's business model. Or how their business model is fine, but they're doing it wrong, and check out how these games over here do it. But treating the business model about slaying internet orcs like it's some sort of moral depravity is. . .pretty out there, to but it lightly. I mean, just. . .what? Someone charging more money for cooler abilities/whatever in their normally free game is undermining the society you want to see built?
They don't make the game 'free' because they are being nice, they make the game free (with a whole lot of manipulation built in to get you to spend money) because they think they can make more money that way. They are only part wrong in this instance and that part they are getting wrong is hurting their players and themselves. I care both about the designers that worked on the project (I have empathy for my colleagues) and I care about the impact it has on the players and culture. I strongly believe that games should improve/add value the player who play them, and players should want to play because of that. Not because a decent psychologist/game designer is playing on their biases to manipulate them.

It is a shame that GW2 has such terrible combat and systems designers but with a generally respectable business model, while NW has good combat and system design with a terrible business model.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 21, 2013 4:42 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:It is a shame that GW2 has such terrible combat and systems designers but with a generally respectable business model, while NW has good combat and system design with a terrible business model.
:roll:

Anyyyyyyyyway...
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Tue May 21, 2013 6:11 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Zcorp wrote:It is a shame that GW2 has such terrible combat and systems designers but with a generally respectable business model, while NW has good combat and system design with a terrible business model.
:roll:

Anyyyyyyyyway...

How's that trolling working out? You enjoying it?

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 21, 2013 1:37 pm UTC

How are those unsupported subjective statements you keep throwing around? You enjoying it?

wumpus wrote:You only have so many hours on this world, and letting a company like PWE grab them away and laugh that "it isn't important" seems foolishly short sighted.
Sigh... I feel so bad for some of you, that someone broke into your home, installed the game on your computer, and at gun point, made you play. It must be very stressful trying to decide what epic mount to purchase with your hard earned astral diamonds.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Adam H » Wed May 22, 2013 9:59 pm UTC

With the exception of a couple arguments (see below), I feel like I can sum up this thread like so:
Izawwlgood: "I value price over quality!"
zcorp: "I value quality over price!"
DEATH MATCH!

wumpus wrote:The other thing is, are you remotely familiar with how much time an MMO can sap from your life?
I have no sympathy. Does that make me a bad person? I don't care.

Izawwlgood wrote:
Zcorp wrote:It is a shame that GW2 has such terrible combat and systems designers but with a generally respectable business model, while NW has good combat and system design with a terrible business model.
How are those unsupported subjective statements you keep throwing around? You enjoying it?
Zcorp's opinion is valid. He desires a game with NW combat and GW2 pricing model. Of course it's subjective. I mean, maybe he should preface everything with "IMO", but whatever.

Zcorp wrote:I care both about the designers that worked on the project (I have empathy for my colleagues) and I care about the impact it has on the players and culture. I strongly believe that games should improve/add value the player who play them, and players should want to play because of that. Not because a decent psychologist/game designer is playing on their biases to manipulate them.
I'm not sure there's an objective difference between adding value to players and playing on the player's biases. If the player wants something, who are you to say whether it is valuable to them or they are just being stupid?

Edit: also, do the designers that weren't privy to the business decisions have a stake in the game? It seems like they get paid no matter how the game does commercially. And anyways, I doubt you can give any evidence that the game would do better with a different pricing model, since professional businesspeople choose this pricing model specifically so that it would make the most money for them.
-Adam

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Wed May 22, 2013 11:54 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:
Zcorp wrote:I care both about the designers that worked on the project (I have empathy for my colleagues) and I care about the impact it has on the players and culture. I strongly believe that games should improve/add value the player who play them, and players should want to play because of that. Not because a decent psychologist/game designer is playing on their biases to manipulate them.
I'm not sure there's an objective difference between adding value to players and playing on the player's biases. If the player wants something, who are you to say whether it is valuable to them or they are just being stupid?

I'm a knowledgeable and experienced expert on game design and psychology, but that isn't really relevant. I'm not going to compare gaming to drugs, I'm not suggesting extensive playing of games is as detrimental as extensive drug abuse. I am going to suggest it can have a very significant negative impact on individuals behavior.

Some bars have a drink limit, or cut individuals off who are to drunk. They even have bouncers to assist with this. It doesn't take a medical doctor for a bartender to understand when someone is to drunk and probably should stop being served (and serving them when they are drunk and you know they are driving home certainly isn't valuable to them). Over-serving can even lead to liability for the establishment, there is even liquor liability insurance.

However, often unfortunately for the individuals selling liquor and other drugs people who use your good are less likely to continue to use your good in the short turn after a few uses. Not true of games. Playing games heavily for 4 hours doesn't result in gamers passing out.

Maybe you want an example that you perceive as a little closer to games, how about gambling. Why isn't gambling legal everywhere? Who makes these laws that say I can't gamble, I want to gamble, who are you to say what is valuable to me. I should be able to piss away all my mortgage on a slot machine, go sell my car to I can get drunk enough to try and forget about it and then by some coke to have energy to try and work the next morning right? I can actually do all of those things in society today, and none of those are in my house.

For other things that directly play on the chemical reactions of our brain to give pleasure but when overuse or specific kinds of use can lead to poor behavior we have rules, social influence and laws that put responsibility on the the vendors of those goods to sell them responsibly. This isn't true of games.

Should we care about the well-being of people who have addictions, or make poor choices in the moment? Should we care about systems that are explicitly designed to create situations where people make poor decisions and then profit off of it? I think so, not because I think I should be able to tell the guy who lost his mortgage that he can't gamble but because I care about building a good society and that includes helping the less educated and more compulsive individuals that these business models prey on.

Drink responsibly is everywhere, we should want to create a culture were we are gaming responsibly rather than apologizing for the for the companies making money off of their players who aren't gaming responsibly. Addiction shouldn't have a positive connotation within the world of game development, and sadly not only is it positive in the context of development but with marketing to the consumers.

Edit: also, do the designers that weren't privy to the business decisions have a stake in the game? It seems like they get paid no matter how the game does commercially. And anyways, I doubt you can give any evidence that the game would do better with a different pricing model, since professional business people choose this pricing model specifically so that it would make the most money for them.

People have a stake in what they create, if a game does well I'd hope their designers are getting raises with some of that profit in addition to the general sense of self-worth that comes from creating something of value. Some designers also have equity. Making a case for a different pricing model being better is a long and deep process, before we go through that I'd point you to Ramin Shokrizade, he is a decent writer covering this subject, and the first few pages of our discussion can be covered by you reading through his articles, look specifically at this. There is a lot to be debated about his articles but it should give us a place to start talking about it, and citing what different games did and their success, and types of success.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu May 23, 2013 12:18 am UTC

Adam H wrote:With the exception of a couple arguments (see below), I feel like I can sum up this thread like so:
Izawwlgood: "I value price over quality!"
zcorp: "I value quality over price!"
DEATH MATCH!
Bit of an oversimplification, but close enough. I don't *not* value quality, I feel I'm just able to differenciate a free to play game with a game I'm choosing to invest my money in. If a friend hands me a candy bar and goes "Check it out, free candy bar!" I'm not going to tell them they're a horrible fucking person ruining society because they didn't bring me my favorite candy bar.

Adam H wrote:Zcorp's opinion is valid. He desires a game with NW combat and GW2 pricing model. Of course it's subjective. I mean, maybe he should preface everything with "IMO", but whatever.
If Zcorp phrased a single post with 'IMO' or 'Here is why I feel the way I do' instead of; "It is a shame that GW2 has such terrible combat and systems designers but with a generally respectable business model, while NW has good combat and system design with a terrible business model.", a totes valid discussion could be had! Shame on me, in retrospect, for not simply saying as much, but I'm getting quite tired of him and MSs attitudes in this thread.

Zcorp wrote:Should we care about the well-being of people who have addictions, or make poor choices in the moment? Should we care about systems that are explicitly designed to create situations where people make poor decisions and then profit off of it? I think so, not because I think I should be able to tell the guy who lost his mortgage that he can't gamble but because I care about building a good society and that includes helping the less educated and more compulsive individuals that these business models prey on.
You have your wires so unbelievably crossed here...

Ok; there are already organizations to help people with gaming addictions. So, that exists.
Gaming companies utilizing gambling tricks to make people keep playing are *not* evil for doing so; again, no one is forcing you, those kids, or that guy with a gambling problem to play these games. If you feel these games are undermining society, then you have a very long, and very difficult road ahead of you eliminating every thing human beings do as a result of pleasure seeking. If you honestly and truthfully believe that Skinner Box game models are predatory in nature, then by all means, please, suggest a game that doesn't use them and why it should be the new healthy industry standard.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Thu May 23, 2013 2:16 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Adam H wrote:Zcorp's opinion is valid. He desires a game with NW combat and GW2 pricing model. Of course it's subjective. I mean, maybe he should preface everything with "IMO", but whatever.
If Zcorp phrased a single post with 'IMO' or 'Here is why I feel the way I do' instead of; "It is a shame that GW2 has such terrible combat and systems designers but with a generally respectable business model, while NW has good combat and system design with a terrible business model.", a totes valid discussion could be had! Shame on me, in retrospect, for not simply saying as much, but I'm getting quite tired of him and MSs attitudes in this thread.
You're welcome to disagree with me, and attempt to make an argument for once.

Zcorp wrote:Should we care about the well-being of people who have addictions, or make poor choices in the moment? Should we care about systems that are explicitly designed to create situations where people make poor decisions and then profit off of it? I think so, not because I think I should be able to tell the guy who lost his mortgage that he can't gamble but because I care about building a good society and that includes helping the less educated and more compulsive individuals that these business models prey on.
You have your wires so unbelievably crossed here...
Another example of your great debate skills. Yay for attacking me vs attacking my argument.

Ok; there are already organizations to help people with gaming addictions. So, that exists.
Gaming companies utilizing gambling trickses to make people keep playing are *not* evil for doing so; again, no one is forcing you, those kids, or that guy with a gambling problem to play these games. If you feel these games are undermining society, then you have a very long, and very difficult road ahead of you eliminating every thing human beings do as a result of pleasure seeking. If you honestly and truthfully believe that Skinner Box game models are predatory in nature, then by all means, please, suggest a game that doesn't use them and why it should be the new healthy industry standard.

Strawmen are fun. I'm saying that somethings that are pleasurable but can often, unfortunately, result in the detriment of the person partaking in the pleasurable act. I'm not saying that pleasure is bad, I'm not saying that alcohol is bad, I'm wouldn't even say cocaine is bad, I am saying that people peddling pleasure (and games can be substantially more than pleasure, but don't have to be) have a responsibility not to abuse their consumers, and that does not include actively trying to get them addicted, getting them to care and them frustrate them only to allow them to pay to avoid that frustration, creating absurd perceived value, utilizing loss aversion, door in the face or a whole slew of other tricks to get them to partake in your product regardless of the real world affect to the player. This is also a belief generally held with all of civilized society and most of them have laws to that effect, restrictions on age, frequency and amount of use or just generally make some of them illegal.

Obviously we have very different ethics, I think that intentionally inflicting harm on others for profit IS evil. If you want to sound intelligent instead of arguing that it isn't, you should state that you don't believe there is harm or that the harm is insignificant. Then you might barely sound thoughtful for once, and we just might get a reasonable discussion out of this.

I've never argued that all models with a Skinner box are predatory, but you aren't functionally literate, so...yeah, my arguments seem way to sophisticated for you to understand, as all you can understand is the idea of a Skinner box and nothing else. You are one with the red herring, kudos. You're working on a PHD in biology or something IIRC right? You are a shining example of what higher education as become.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Metaphysician » Thu May 23, 2013 6:32 am UTC

so, how is this game?
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu May 23, 2013 12:32 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:You're welcome to disagree with me, and attempt to make an argument for once.
Zcorp, I've been doing that this entire time. Your position has been that Cryptic and other games that utilize Skinner Box tactics are manipulative and horrid and terribad. This whole time, I've been arguing that they aren't, and providing reasons for why. From the get go, you've been doing nothing but rocking ad hominims (and actual ones, not like my comment about you having your wires crossed, which you redacted as a claim as an ad hominim).
Zcorp wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:You have your wires so unbelievably crossed here...
Another example of your great debate skills. Yay for attacking me vs attacking my argument.
I'm not attacking you, I'm saying your argument is woefully mishmashed and crossed... Were I attacking you instead of your argument, I would have said "You are stupid and your wires are unbelievably crossed here..."
Zcorp wrote:Obviously we have very different ethics, I think that intentionally inflicting harm on others for profit IS evil. If you want to sound intelligent instead of arguing that it isn't, you should state that you don't believe there is harm or that the harm is insignificant. Then you might barely sound thoughtful for once, and we just might get a reasonable discussion out of this.
MMOs aren't harming people, MMOs wanting to profit for their games aren't evil. Did you want to talk about that, or did you just want another person stating that they disagree with the position you initially put up and had argued with 2 pages ago? Zcorp; we aren't the ones being obtuse here, you are. We've been trying to talk to you about your position since you put it up. Your stance on the matter seems to me, the darkest and most biased possible perspective to hold on what *games* are; you are suggesting that having a game reward the player for an action is manipulative.
Zcorp wrote:I've never argued that all models with a Skinner box are predatory, but you aren't functionally literate, so...yeah, my arguments seem way to sophisticated for you to understand, as all you can understand is the idea of a Skinner box and nothing else. You are one with the red herring, kudos. You're working on a PHD in biology or something IIRC right? You are a shining example of what higher education as become.
This, is an ad hominim.

Lets try this again; Since you so abhor the Neverwinter pay model, why do you enjoy the GW2 pay model? Since you like the Neverwinter combat model, why do you dislike the GW2 combat model?

Notice, I'm directly asking you a reasonable question; how you choose to answer it will determine if I continue this discussion with you.

Metaphysician wrote:so, how is this game?
Meh. Still very much in beta. Combat is funnish for some classes but fairly shallow, most of the class balance is borked, and the PvE is involved feeling, but very repetitive. Crafting uses an SWTOR model which I like, and people think it's P2W and that the economy is broken, so that's a thing. It's also free.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby SecondTalon » Thu May 23, 2013 1:42 pm UTC

Holy crap, can I not ignore a thread for a day or two...or twelve... without it becoming a shitpile?

Apparently not, so Imma read through the entire thing more closely. In the meantime, enjoy Read Only mode.


Aaannndd we're back!

Izawwlgood, Zcorp, if I see either one of you in this thread again, you're getting thrown the fuck out of High Culture.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Thu May 23, 2013 2:03 pm UTC

Now that all that is over with, back to my question...does boss combat ever get interesting? I.E. Anything other than killing a boss while adds spawn?
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Jack21222 » Thu May 23, 2013 2:19 pm UTC

After I had told myself that I'd be passing on this game, I went ahead and downloaded it anyway just to see what it was like, and because it was free. I only got through character creation and I have some major issues with it already.

There is virtually no character customization. This is supposed to be a Dungeons and Dragons game, right? What happened to selecting skills and feats? What do you mean there are only 5 classes, and two of them are fighters? What do you mean there is only one type of wizard? I had a brief moment of hope when I got to choose my deity and background, but the text at the top states that it is just for fun, and has no impact on gameplay. And where is the alignment system?

There are no paladins, no druids, no monks, no rangers, no sorcerers, no bards...

I see virtually no roleplaying potential in this game based on character creation. It's just very limited, and everybody will be playing the same cookie-cutter characters. That is NOT what Dungeons and Dragons is about.

The server is down for maintenance, so I'll have to wait a bit to see whether or not the gameplay makes up for the horribly limited starting choices.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Krealr » Thu May 23, 2013 2:45 pm UTC

Jack21222 wrote:After I had told myself that I'd be passing on this game, I went ahead and downloaded it anyway just to see what it was like, and because it was free. I only got through character creation and I have some major issues with it already.

There is virtually no character customization. This is supposed to be a Dungeons and Dragons game, right? What happened to selecting skills and feats? What do you mean there are only 5 classes, and two of them are fighters? What do you mean there is only one type of wizard? I had a brief moment of hope when I got to choose my deity and background, but the text at the top states that it is just for fun, and has no impact on gameplay. And where is the alignment system?

There are no paladins, no druids, no monks, no rangers, no sorcerers, no bards...

I see virtually no roleplaying potential in this game based on character creation. It's just very limited, and everybody will be playing the same cookie-cutter characters. That is NOT what Dungeons and Dragons is about.

The server is down for maintenance, so I'll have to wait a bit to see whether or not the gameplay makes up for the horribly limited starting choices.


That is what I've noticed as well. I think it is especially shocking to me because I have been playing DDO (Dungeons & Dragons Online) for awhile now where you get a ridiculous amount of character customization options. (Some say too many because it makes it easy to totally screw up your character if you don't know what you're doing)

Neverwinter feels like something I'll likely cap a character and then abandon. For now I'll stick with DDO primarily despite it's own issues.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Jack21222 » Thu May 23, 2013 4:41 pm UTC

Had the chance to play for about 45 minutes. It feels like a cheap WoW clone, and I did not like WoW. I just have no interest in this at all.

Items can only be equipped by specific classes. The quests are on rails. The combat is simplistic. Pass.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby lgw » Thu May 23, 2013 6:39 pm UTC

Metaphysician wrote:so, how is this game?


Now that it's been public long enough for my opinion to settle, I'll give it: it's OK. If it had come out 10 years ago it would have been awesome. The only thing I'm seeing in it that seems new or interesting is the Foundry. The Foundry (players making adventures that other players can play through) is amazing - it's an aspect of old-school MUDs that has been missing from commercial MMOs (unless you count Second Life and similar MMOs which only have that aspect).

There's a real game design challenge in finding a way to allow anyone to design a quest without maliciously throwing the risk/reward ratio off (in ether direction). NW deals with this well thus far. The other challenge is the same with any game that allows player-made content - the more you can customize, the lower the MTTP (invented by the Penny Arcade guys: Mean Time To Penis). How do you avoid the Foundry being overwhelmed by Penis Dungeons (in any and every possible interpretation of that idea)? Apparently, simply having a button to report quest content for moderator attention works. I also haven't seen any quest full of dancing girls as close to naked as the game allows. Though I'm sure the juvenile quests are there, NW keeps it sufficiently under control as to not be annoying. This is an amazing accomplishment, and I'm impressed by it!

The actual gameplay though? It's somewhere between WoW and DDO. Nothing wrong with that, but nothing special either. It's great that the "farm the spawn until you kill N whatevers" mechanic is absent, but that's increasingly common.

It's a quite reasonable real-time realization of the D&D 4E rules, much like DDO was for the 3.5 rules. If you love that rules set, the game will certainly have appeal. If you want new MMO content and aren't bored with the basic way MMOs work, the game will have appeal.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri May 24, 2013 12:20 am UTC

Metaphysician wrote:so, how is this game?


It's fun up to 60. But if you want balanced pvp or competitive pve or a working economy, perish the thought.

If you want to find a group easily, play a guardian fighter - instant queues.

If you want to be necessary and like running around with 80% of the dungeon chasing you, play a cleric.

If you like winning in pvp, play a mage.

If you like damage, play a rogue. Most do.

Do not play a great weapon fighter.

Maybe play in a few months when they have worked out some of the most massive crippling bugs (for instance, a level X8 character will hit for a third of a level X9 or X0 character in the same pvp bracket; or sometimes people do not join the arena and can't leave the group - this is still not fixed, there were several way to one-shot bosses, people could put negative prices on the AH and generate infinite currency, etc).

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:24 pm UTC

Bump with a question: did anyone here clear Epic Yshiggol, and if so, how?

We tried kiting the thoon hulks around (they both respawn instantly) but there was still way too much damage and disables coming on the group. At the first miniboss phase we wipe without fail.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:14 pm UTC

I stopped playing at level 28...I couldn't stand the game anymore. Sorry :(
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Lucy_Miky » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:57 am UTC

I wonder if everyone gets to play Elminster.


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