XBox One

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Xeio
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Re: XBox One

Postby Xeio » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:35 pm UTC

Jack21222 wrote:I really don't understand how I'm the paranoid one, pointing out things that are ALREADY BEING DONE and how it would be trivial to extend it to this new technology. I'm not talking about some kind of weird hypothetical situation. The NSA is already collecting every bit of data it can. Advertisers are already collecting as much data as they can. I'm not being some kind of looney here.

If Microsoft gets a national security letter from the NSA for Kinect data, they will comply. Why would the NSA not want that data?
Sure they would have to. Assuming Kinect transmitted any of that data for MS to even be able to see, which they've already said it doesn't (if you opt out). If you don't trust them, ok, but maybe you should say that you don't think they'll honor the privacy options they're giving, rather than acting like they don't exist.

Jack21222 wrote:If advertisers are willing to pay Microsoft money to see whether users are smiling during their commercial, and at what points, why would Microsoft turn down that money? In fact, why else would Microsoft develop the technology specifically to see whether the user is smiling? Does that have some legitimate gameplay purpose?
Seems like a fairly logical step to be able to detect facial features once you get a high enough fidelity camera. And they want a better camera and processing hardware to be able to better detect the rest of the body (distinguish fingers from thumbs, detect rotations of limbs, tell people apart). The biometrics stuff is neat too, like being able to sense heart rate. Do MS have to release a bunch of experimental games to show how these features could be used?

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Re: XBox One

Postby Jack21222 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:59 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
Jack21222 wrote:I really don't understand how I'm the paranoid one, pointing out things that are ALREADY BEING DONE and how it would be trivial to extend it to this new technology. I'm not talking about some kind of weird hypothetical situation. The NSA is already collecting every bit of data it can. Advertisers are already collecting as much data as they can. I'm not being some kind of looney here.

If Microsoft gets a national security letter from the NSA for Kinect data, they will comply. Why would the NSA not want that data?
Sure they would have to. Assuming Kinect transmitted any of that data for MS to even be able to see, which they've already said it doesn't (if you opt out). If you don't trust them, ok, but maybe you should say that you don't think they'll honor the privacy options they're giving, rather than acting like they don't exist.

Jack21222 wrote:If advertisers are willing to pay Microsoft money to see whether users are smiling during their commercial, and at what points, why would Microsoft turn down that money? In fact, why else would Microsoft develop the technology specifically to see whether the user is smiling? Does that have some legitimate gameplay purpose?
Seems like a fairly logical step to be able to detect facial features once you get a high enough fidelity camera. And they want a better camera and processing hardware to be able to better detect the rest of the body (distinguish fingers from thumbs, detect rotations of limbs, tell people apart). The biometrics stuff is neat too, like being able to sense heart rate. Do MS have to release a bunch of experimental games to show how these features could be used?


I didn't see any demonstrations showing that the Kinect could distinguish between fingers and thumbs. I did see a demonstration where it very specifically
could determine whether somebody was smiling. I cannot imagine any game in which that would be a gameplay feature. That is for advertising metrics. Even if people opt out, they're including a 100 dollar mandatory device designed to collect advertising metrics.

I've already voted with my wallet. If you guys want to spend an extra $100 on something with limited use and have to worry about privacy settings, go for it. In my opinion, there is exactly no compelling reason to go with Xbox One over PS4. PS4 does the exact same things, without the mandatory camera.
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Re: XBox One

Postby Xeio » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:33 pm UTC

Jack21222 wrote:I didn't see any demonstrations showing that the Kinect could distinguish between fingers and thumbs. I did see a demonstration where it very specifically could determine whether somebody was smiling. I cannot imagine any game in which that would be a gameplay feature. That is for advertising metrics. Even if people opt out, they're including a 100 dollar mandatory device designed to collect advertising metrics.
Longer new Kinect demo, with thumbs shown. Specifically they appear to show as extra vectors on the hands.

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Re: XBox One

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:53 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:The difference between an XBox routinely phoning home with collected Kinect data, and someone coming to pay you a visit with a $5 wrench is that you know when someone's broken your kneecaps, while you can't tell when someone's accessed Microsoft's database...


Also doesn't distinguish between the example KE actually gave, which is someone watching you with binoculars, or tailing you, or bugging your car.


All of which are still individually targeted - the Kinect data (if you have to explicitly opt out of having data sent back to the mothership, then that strongly implies that the default is to actually send the data back) is mass-produced.

If you believe some major organisation has reason to consider you a "person of interest", then taking precautions against the targeted surveillance methods makes sense; if not, then it's the mass surveillance you need to consider - Kinect, Siri, Google, Facebook, various urban cameras... What singles Kinect out from that list is that it's the device that's intended to be kept in people's private dwellings and (as originally described) always be on, always be online, and be sending unspecified data back to corporate HQ...

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Re: XBox One

Postby Kag » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:08 am UTC

If you believe some major organisation has reason to consider you a "person of interest", then taking precautions against the targeted surveillance methods makes sense; if not, then it's the mass surveillance you need to consider - Kinect, Siri, Google, Facebook, various urban cameras... What singles Kinect out from that list is that it's the device that's intended to be kept in people's private dwellings and (as originally described) always be on, always be online, and be sending unspecified data back to corporate HQ...


No. If you're worried about being surveilled, you should take precautions against surveillance techniques, full stop. If the NSA wants to get whatever data the xbox could send out through PRISM, they have to ask Microsoft about you, specifically. Being defended only when nobody is looking is completely fucking useless.

And you should take those precautions in general, because shit is spooky.
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Re: XBox One

Postby Jack21222 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:36 am UTC

Kag wrote: If the NSA wants to get whatever data the xbox could send out through PRISM, they have to ask Microsoft about you, specifically.


This is not necessarily true. They can just get a copy of every bit of data Microsoft receives, and only access that data from their own database when they're interested in a specific person. That's the way it works with phone records at the moment. They collect the data on everybody, and only access it when they think you might be up to something.
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Re: XBox One

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:17 am UTC

Kag wrote:
If you believe some major organisation has reason to consider you a "person of interest", then taking precautions against the targeted surveillance methods makes sense; if not, then it's the mass surveillance you need to consider - Kinect, Siri, Google, Facebook, various urban cameras... What singles Kinect out from that list is that it's the device that's intended to be kept in people's private dwellings and (as originally described) always be on, always be online, and be sending unspecified data back to corporate HQ...


No. If you're worried about being surveilled, you should take precautions against surveillance techniques, full stop. If the NSA wants to get whatever data the xbox could send out through PRISM, they have to ask Microsoft about you, specifically. Being defended only when nobody is looking is completely fucking useless.

And you should take those precautions in general, because shit is spooky.


I'm not worried about targeted surveillance - I'm far enough down any notional threat list that the only people who might want to spy on me would be doing so for purely personal reasons - it's the surveillance equivalent of a channel surfer that worries me - someone who has access to mass surveillance that happens to include me, and randomly flicks through.

I'm wide open to professional surveillance, but I take routine precautions against casual surveillance - and my judgement is that the Kinect camera falls toward the casual end of the spectrum...

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Re: XBox One

Postby Xeio » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:35 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:I'm not worried about targeted surveillance - I'm far enough down any notional threat list that the only people who might want to spy on me would be doing so for purely personal reasons - it's the surveillance equivalent of a channel surfer that worries me - someone who has access to mass surveillance that happens to include me, and randomly flicks through.
To the data share you opted into that's stored on Microsoft's servers; or are you saying you think there's a backdoor built in that lets someone just watch your video feed at any time remotely?

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Re: XBox One

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:58 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:I'm not worried about targeted surveillance - I'm far enough down any notional threat list that the only people who might want to spy on me would be doing so for purely personal reasons - it's the surveillance equivalent of a channel surfer that worries me - someone who has access to mass surveillance that happens to include me, and randomly flicks through.
To the data share you opted into that's stored on Microsoft's servers; or are you saying you think there's a backdoor built in that lets someone just watch your video feed at any time remotely?


The one I'm not even buying the hardware for, let alone opting into. When a company says that the opt-out was only included to comply with privacy laws, it somehow doesn't inspire me with confidence that they're committed to respecting my privacy...

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Re: XBox One

Postby EvanED » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:45 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:I'm not worried about targeted surveillance - I'm far enough down any notional threat list that the only people who might want to spy on me would be doing so for purely personal reasons - it's the surveillance equivalent of a channel surfer that worries me - someone who has access to mass surveillance that happens to include me, and randomly flicks through.
To the data share you opted into that's stored on Microsoft's servers; or are you saying you think there's a backdoor built in that lets someone just watch your video feed at any time remotely?
"Failed to opt out of", from what people are saying. And no, those aren't the same thing.

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Re: XBox One

Postby Xeio » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:29 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:
Xeio wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:I'm not worried about targeted surveillance - I'm far enough down any notional threat list that the only people who might want to spy on me would be doing so for purely personal reasons - it's the surveillance equivalent of a channel surfer that worries me - someone who has access to mass surveillance that happens to include me, and randomly flicks through.
To the data share you opted into that's stored on Microsoft's servers; or are you saying you think there's a backdoor built in that lets someone just watch your video feed at any time remotely?
"Failed to opt out of", from what people are saying. And no, those aren't the same thing.
According to MS, there is a first-run setup where you select these options. Though we haven't actually seen it yet, so it's not clear how all the options work or exactly what's displayed.

I don't have any doubts they'll make it very easy to skip through accepting everything for anyone who doesn't read the options though.

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Re: XBox One

Postby Xeio » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:08 am UTC

So apparently it works without Kinect plugged in after all.

So... does that make for anything they haven't backtracked on yet? This whole announcement cycle has just been disaster after disaster for MS.

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Re: XBox One

Postby Woopate » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:17 am UTC

This started short and quickly got out of hand. Spoilered for long and ranty.

Spoiler:
Yep. They've backed out of everything that made the Xbone stand out. Now it's a hardware upgrade that doesn't play the old catalog.

Don't get me wrong, I think the way Microsoft approached the announcement was poorly thought out. There ARE serious privacy concerns regarding always-on Kinects attached to always-online Xboxes. There are serious repercussions to changing how content is served and whether or not it can be shared (not a big point for me as I use Steam and love it, but some people choose consoles for that exact reason).

But there was truth in the concept that if you are guaranteed to have a Kinect on the user side, designers can change the way they think about the design of their games. I for one am ready for the barriers between games and their players to change. Controllers haven't changed all that much since DualShock came out for the PS1 fifteen years ago, and our capabilities have vastly improved since then. At least a portion of why nothing new has caught on was because a designer had no guarantee that a user would have the required peripheral and the publisher would tell them that games need to be accessible to the widest possible audience (runs on a stock setup).

I think backtracking as far as they have was an equally poor decision. They now look like cowards who can't take the heat, and now Sony gets to go on the offensive. Their games have now suffered for it. Even if all Xbones will still ship with a Kinect(I don't know if this is the case. At least one source I read said the Kinect decision was to lower the price as much as address privacy concerns), this hullabaloo ensures that games that could have benefited from subtle use of the Kinect in addition to a controller won't take that step for fear of being tied to this whole shit show.

A compromise, or a partial solution would have been best. Perhaps have the Kinect receive minimal power when the system is off. Enough to power the mic and a controller that recognizes commands hardcoded to the device, that sends a signal to the XBox only if it hears something from the command list. That way it can't passively spy on you.

Reducing the privacy concerns while the Xbox is on is as simple as not having a way of sending Kinect data to the main server. The thing is a control input. Use cases where it needs to send it's data across the internet should be the exception. Have it ask permission at least the first time any game or app wants to call home to mom with a required explanation of why it wants to do that.

When it comes down to it, this could have been awesome. It could have done excellent things and changed gaming forever and for the better. But it's the relationship between the companies and the consumers(and now the US government too) that prevented that ideal from transpiring. We must be watchful (and justifiably so) against all possible sources of abuse. Sadly it seems like we have hit a patch where most developments have potential for abuse now, and it almost feels like these abuse vectors are cropping up so frequently that it's the very abuse that motivates their development.

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Re: XBox One

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:47 pm UTC

Woopate wrote:Controllers haven't changed all that much since DualShock came out for the PS1 fifteen years ago, and our capabilities have vastly improved since then.


Wiimote.

Wii U Gamepad.

Sony/Microsoft controllers may not have changed much, but Nintendo's been cheerfully throwing out radical changes every generation - their most conventional native controller since the SNES was the GameCube's - and even that was an outlier.

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Re: XBox One

Postby MisterCheif » Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:33 pm UTC

Woopate wrote:A compromise, or a partial solution would have been best. Perhaps have the Kinect receive minimal power when the system is off. Enough to power the mic and a controller that recognizes commands hardcoded to the device, that sends a signal to the XBox only if it hears something from the command list. That way it can't passively spy on you.

Reducing the privacy concerns while the Xbox is on is as simple as not having a way of sending Kinect data to the main server. The thing is a control input. Use cases where it needs to send it's data across the internet should be the exception. Have it ask permission at least the first time any game or app wants to call home to mom with a required explanation of why it wants to do that.

The thing with both of these is that there is effectively no way for Microsoft to prove to the majority of people that care about this that it doesn't besides saying, "Trust us guys! It's not spying on you!" They can't exactly send out the technical blueprints of the device and its circuit boards, and the code running it. And even if they did, only a limited amount of people would be able to understand it enough to know it isn't.

That being said, I'm really hoping that the part about cutting costs is not true. I wanted a kinect for this, partly because I was excited for the cool things that could be done to enhance normal controls (like using head tracking for a flight sim, or maybe allowing you to lean to the side to lean in a realistic/semi-realistic FPS), and because I want to mess around with it for robotics once someone's written firmware for the XBO version of it (and hopefully someone designs an adapter so you can use the XBO version with a PC).

Though I have time to wait for the robotics aspect, I don't know enough yet to do anything with it, and I may not until the end of 2014, when I actually take the class that uses the Kinect 1.0 as a sensor for a robot.
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Re: XBox One

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:43 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Woopate wrote:Controllers haven't changed all that much since DualShock came out for the PS1 fifteen years ago, and our capabilities have vastly improved since then.


Wiimote.

Wii U Gamepad.

Sony/Microsoft controllers may not have changed much, but Nintendo's been cheerfully throwing out radical changes every generation - their most conventional native controller since the SNES was the GameCube's - and even that was an outlier.


Don't forget the three-handed N64 controller. Which is basically a Gamecube controller before they took the second part of the Wiichuck out.
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Re: XBox One

Postby Woopate » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:27 am UTC

I agree, Nintendo hasn't followed any set standard and changes it up every generation. And it was indeed the Wii controller that propelled us into Kinect. But I would suggest that it is because they haven't found a home. None of those controllers was on par in terms of usability with the Dualshock or Xbox controller (In my opinion).

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Re: XBox One

Postby Xenomortis » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:30 am UTC

The Gamecube controller was far more comfortable than the PS2 and XBox controllers.
I'm amazed Sony never bothered to improve the Playstation controllers; we're still using what are basically PS1 Dualshocks, and they haven't got any better to hold.
Really, it's only disadvantage was the lack of two left shoulder buttons; it only had one. Although the placement of its left joystick (like the XBox's) was far superior to Sony's controllers.
Hell, I even think its "right-button-grid (a, b, x, y)" was superior.
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Re: XBox One

Postby sparkyb » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:33 pm UTC

Woopate wrote:But there was truth in the concept that if you are guaranteed to have a Kinect on the user side, designers can change the way they think about the design of their games.


Woopate wrote:Even if all Xbones will still ship with a Kinect(I don't know if this is the case. At least one source I read said the Kinect decision was to lower the price as much as address privacy concerns)


I'm pretty sure that they still will ship all Xbones with Kinect. At least I hope so. I haven't heard anything to the contrary. I think as long as designers know that people will have them, they should feel free to use them, as opposed to not knowing if users would have to spend more more money to get a Kinect to play the game. The people unplugging their Kinects and refusing to plug it back in are those that are just opposed to motion controls and they wouldn't have bought your game with Kinect controls even if they were required to have it plugged in all the time to make the Xbox work.

I think this is the perfect compromise as far as the always-on Kinect is concerned. Ensure people having by not selling the Xbox without it, don't require them to use it at the system level, but leave requiring it a reasonable option for developers. I'm happy they backtracked on allowing indie development on Xbone too. I'm only disappointed about some of the backtracking on always-on internet connection because there are some things they could have done with game installation/portability that they can't do now that their copy protection is back to relying on physical plastic. :(

Woopate wrote:A compromise, or a partial solution would have been best. Perhaps have the Kinect receive minimal power when the system is off. Enough to power the mic and a controller that recognizes commands hardcoded to the device, that sends a signal to the XBox only if it hears something from the command list. That way it can't passively spy on you.

Reducing the privacy concerns while the Xbox is on is as simple as not having a way of sending Kinect data to the main server. The thing is a control input. Use cases where it needs to send it's data across the internet should be the exception. Have it ask permission at least the first time any game or app wants to call home to mom with a required explanation of why it wants to do that.


I think that's all they ever were doing. The fears against an always on Kinect being used to spy on you and send video and audio of your living room without your consent was not based on evidence. It was just FUD, possibly based on some extreme misreading of privacy policies or quotes.

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Re: XBox One

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:05 pm UTC

The rumor site I follow has released a pretty comprehensive review of the XBox 180s:

http://semiaccurate.com/2013/08/16/xbox ... hronicles/
June 19
  • Dropped physical game media sharing restrictions
  • Dropped used games restrictions
  • Dropped requirement of always connected, online check-in (single-player games included)
  • Dropped region code restriction
July 1
  • Top-level Xbox management leaves company (KnightExemplar Note: Don Mattrick leaves to lol Zynga. IMO, he was either Fired, or believes Zynga is a better bet than XBox One :shock: )
July 24
  • Allow indie game developers to self-publish
August 8
  • Inclusion of audio chat Headset
August 12
  • Dropped Kinect always plugged-in requirement
  • Option to unplug Kinect from console


With 5 news events, and 4 180s, we can now officially call the XBox a "720". (4 x 180 == 720 Hurrah!). The removal of always-on Kinect should quash the IMO silly Kinect privacy debate. But Microsoft seriously needs to be worried about all this bad press. (Not just around bad news around XBox One, but with bad SurfaceRT sales, declining PC sales, and slow uptake on Windows8 Phones).

SecondTalon wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
Woopate wrote:Controllers haven't changed all that much since DualShock came out for the PS1 fifteen years ago, and our capabilities have vastly improved since then.


Wiimote.

Wii U Gamepad.

Sony/Microsoft controllers may not have changed much, but Nintendo's been cheerfully throwing out radical changes every generation - their most conventional native controller since the SNES was the GameCube's - and even that was an outlier.


Don't forget the three-handed N64 controller. Which is basically a Gamecube controller before they took the second part of the Wiichuck out.


All you youngsters get off my lawn!! The SNES controller was the first controller with 4 buttons and shoulder pads! (Sega had 3 buttons: A / B / C, no shoulder pads. Later Sega would upgrade to 6 buttons). SNES innovation! You guys remember that?

Yeah, Nintendo actually has a good record of always adding useful new features to gamepads. Default Wiimote is kinda bad, but Wiimote + Nunchuck is actually a decent controller: Nothing quite gets you the FPS experience like Metroid Prime. And NES-style Wiimote controls work very well for NES-style games. (Like anything that came out of the Virtual Console, or New Mario Bros). I don't really like the accelerometer, but the other "modes" of the WiiMote are actually quite innovative.

And I have been impressed by the WiiU so far. It is seriously underrated right now.
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Re: XBox One

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:11 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:The Gamecube controller was far more comfortable than the PS2 and XBox controllers.
I'm amazed Sony never bothered to improve the Playstation controllers; we're still using what are basically PS1 Dualshocks, and they haven't got any better to hold.
Really, it's only disadvantage was the lack of two left shoulder buttons; it only had one. Although the placement of its left joystick (like the XBox's) was far superior to Sony's controllers.
Hell, I even think its "right-button-grid (a, b, x, y)" was superior.


I dunno - my fingers are too long for the gamecube controller - if I hold it so my thumbs are comfortably on the sticks, my index fingers lie naturally past the end of the shoulder button - I can't find a "comfortable" position to hold the controller in long-term while actually using it in play (long fights with L-targeting are the worst). The N64 controller, on the other hand, is a thing of beauty - it just fits my hand like it was made for it...

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Re: XBox One

Postby Xenomortis » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:36 pm UTC

Actually, I do have a complaint about the GC controller.
The shoulder buttons have to be depressed too far; I know they wanted it to be sensitive, but I've not played a game where this was taken advantage of in any meaningful way (SSBM and some shit game that was really stupid about it).
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Re: XBox One

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:34 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:Actually, I do have a complaint about the GC controller.
The shoulder buttons have to be depressed too far; I know they wanted it to be sensitive, but I've not played a game where this was taken advantage of in any meaningful way (SSBM and some shit game that was really stupid about it).


If memory serves, Luigi's Mansion and Super Mario Sunshine had analogue suck/blow and an added function for a click, but that's about all I remember them being used for

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Re: XBox One

Postby EmptySet » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:52 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Xenomortis wrote:The Gamecube controller was far more comfortable than the PS2 and XBox controllers.
I'm amazed Sony never bothered to improve the Playstation controllers; we're still using what are basically PS1 Dualshocks, and they haven't got any better to hold.
Really, it's only disadvantage was the lack of two left shoulder buttons; it only had one. Although the placement of its left joystick (like the XBox's) was far superior to Sony's controllers.
Hell, I even think its "right-button-grid (a, b, x, y)" was superior.


I dunno - my fingers are too long for the gamecube controller - if I hold it so my thumbs are comfortably on the sticks, my index fingers lie naturally past the end of the shoulder button - I can't find a "comfortable" position to hold the controller in long-term while actually using it in play (long fights with L-targeting are the worst).


Xenomortis wrote:Actually, I do have a complaint about the GC controller.
The shoulder buttons have to be depressed too far; I know they wanted it to be sensitive, but I've not played a game where this was taken advantage of in any meaningful way (SSBM and some shit game that was really stupid about it).


I have both these problems with the GC controller also. If it had been a little larger and not had the stupid analogue shoulder buttons, it would've been great.

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Re: XBox One

Postby Woopate » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:56 am UTC

Not sure if this contributes much so skip if you aren't interested in a tiny tangent:
Spoiler:
Psy-Ops: The Mindgate Conspiracy had the coolest use of pressure sensitive controls. When in telekinesis mode, the harder you press on the analog stick, the higher the tked prop hovers. Led to pressing super hard to get that last inch of clearance, and as a result, you usually had a harder time controlling the object simply because you were pressing so hard.

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Re: XBox One

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:46 pm UTC

PS4 Launch edition has completely been sold out. XBox Day One edition however, is still available.

I'm curious what this actually means. PS4 may be having production issues (remember the PS3 shortages?). Or, the XBox One is having demand issues (the worse problem).

A rumor site I visit often is claiming the worst however. That XBox One is having production issues AND demand issues, which explains why XBox Ones cost so much more than the PS4. PS4 does have a worldwide launch lined up and ready, but XBox One may be delayed in Europe till Holiday 2014.

This entails a production issue on the XBox One. :shock: :shock: So Microsoft might actually be in a terrible, terrible position. Despite making fewer XBox Ones than Sony is making PS4s... Sony managed to sell out first.
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Re: XBox One

Postby Jebobek » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:33 pm UTC

I'm a playstation fanboy. I'm going to buy a PS4 in a few years for the discounted exclusives. However, when the top news and editorials state that PS4 will do better because ???? preorder units sold out faster than XB1's ???? units I go crazy. I need solid numbers to back it up, otherwise it is just speculation.
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Re: XBox One

Postby Xeio » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:09 am UTC

It doesn't matter much anyway, both consoles will sell out for launch guaranteed if only because there will be limited supply. Not to mention they're idiots if they're trying to call a generation winner prior to release (we won't really know till a few years in likely).

I think it might have been interesting to see how everything played in the long run out if MS hadn't done so much backtracking, but we're more or less past that now.

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Re: XBox One

Postby lgw » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:03 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:So apparently it works without Kinect plugged in after all.

So... does that make for anything they haven't backtracked on yet? This whole announcement cycle has just been disaster after disaster for MS.


I take issue with mindset behind that statement. A major US Corporation actually listened to customer feedback and changed some decisions. That's a wonderful, glorious thing, and not any kind of disaster. This is exactly the sort of thing we want megacorps to do.

More "we changed the feature set to what you wanted before we started selling it", and less "we removed that feature you liked after you paid for it" please!
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Re: XBox One

Postby darkone238 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:02 am UTC

lgw wrote:
Xeio wrote:So apparently it works without Kinect plugged in after all.

So... does that make for anything they haven't backtracked on yet? This whole announcement cycle has just been disaster after disaster for MS.


I take issue with mindset behind that statement. A major US Corporation actually listened to customer feedback and changed some decisions. That's a wonderful, glorious thing, and not any kind of disaster. This is exactly the sort of thing we want megacorps to do.

More "we changed the feature set to what you wanted before we started selling it", and less "we removed that feature you liked after you paid for it" please!

The problem is that a healthy portion of the people who make claims like that seem to just want to complain about Microsoft. It doesn't make their complaints less valid, but the point of complaining for them was never to make a change, it was just to make a complaint.


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Re: XBox One

Postby Thesh » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:17 am UTC

Xeio wrote:It doesn't matter much anyway, both consoles will sell out for launch guaranteed if only because there will be limited supply. Not to mention they're idiots if they're trying to call a generation winner prior to release (we won't really know till a few years in likely).


It's pretty easy to see who has the advantage, however. Microsoft has a bad reputation with the early 360's, which could hurt early sales. The 360 was doing well against the PS3 for two primary reasons: it was out much earlier, and it was cheaper. That early lead was huge, as it meant for the first couple of years after the PS3 was launched there were a lot more games for the 360. In lifetime sales, despite the 360 being out of a year earlier, the PS3 actually surpassed the 360 in total worldwide sales. If the PS4 is both released earlier and cheaper, I don't see how the Xbox One can possibly outsell the PS4. The only possible advantage I think Microsoft really has is in Kinect.
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Re: XBox One

Postby Chen » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:40 am UTC

Thesh wrote:It's pretty easy to see who has the advantage, however. Microsoft has a bad reputation with the early 360's, which could hurt early sales. The 360 was doing well against the PS3 for two primary reasons: it was out much earlier, and it was cheaper. That early lead was huge, as it meant for the first couple of years after the PS3 was launched there were a lot more games for the 360. In lifetime sales, despite the 360 being out of a year earlier, the PS3 actually surpassed the 360 in total worldwide sales. If the PS4 is both released earlier and cheaper, I don't see how the Xbox One can possibly outsell the PS4. The only possible advantage I think Microsoft really has is in Kinect.


But you just said a prediction like this is the exact OPPOSITE of what happened last time. That is, PS3 was later and more expensive, yet in the end had more total worldwide sales. I think history shows that Xeio's point is a good one and we won't know who "won" until a few years down the line. I mean hell something as simple as the equivalent to the Xbox's red ring of death on the PS4 could swing things easily the other way.

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Re: XBox One

Postby Thesh » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:20 pm UTC

The point is that the reason the PS3 outsold the 360 is because Playstation is the more well liked brand; the Xbox One is going to have a difficult enough time overcoming that without the PS4 being cheaper.
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Re: XBox One

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:13 am UTC

darkone238 wrote:
lgw wrote:
Xeio wrote:So apparently it works without Kinect plugged in after all.

So... does that make for anything they haven't backtracked on yet? This whole announcement cycle has just been disaster after disaster for MS.


I take issue with mindset behind that statement. A major US Corporation actually listened to customer feedback and changed some decisions. That's a wonderful, glorious thing, and not any kind of disaster. This is exactly the sort of thing we want megacorps to do.

More "we changed the feature set to what you wanted before we started selling it", and less "we removed that feature you liked after you paid for it" please!

The problem is that a healthy portion of the people who make claims like that seem to just want to complain about Microsoft. It doesn't make their complaints less valid, but the point of complaining for them was never to make a change, it was just to make a complaint.


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Nah, I complained. I've owned three 360s, and owned zero PS3s. I absolutely would not have purchased it with all those terrible "features". Now...maybe. See, before, all this coverage was about things I actively disliked or, at best, didn't care about. Major, minor, those are not reasons to buy a product. It's annoying. I owned the last two editions of the system, I've got a pretty decent library, things like lack of backward compatibility are disappointing at best.

Now...maybe. Depends on what they have in it that I actually care about. Interesting new games or what not. If the lineup looks great, I'll probably buy in early. If not, I'll put it off while I burn through the pile of games I haven't played yet, and maybe buy it late once it's got a selection.

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Re: XBox One

Postby Kag » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:45 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:things like lack of backward compatibility are disappointing at best.


Real-ass backwards compatibility is basically untenable at these price points, though.
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Re: XBox One

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:23 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:things like lack of backward compatibility are disappointing at best.


Real-ass backwards compatibility is basically untenable at these price points, though.


I'll take emulated backwards compatibility...it ain't perfect, but it's a helluva lot better than nothing.

I am glad the used game bit and the always on got put to rest, though. A *lot* of my friends are military, and the idea of not having an internet connection for a while is actually pretty normal.

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Re: XBox One

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:11 pm UTC

If people actually cared about backwards compatibility, they'd buy the Wii U. :(

I do care, so I am buying it eventually. But ... it seems like backwards compatibility doesn't matter really.
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Re: XBox One

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:14 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:If people actually cared about backwards compatibility, they'd buy the Wii U. :(

I do care, so I am buying it eventually. But ... it seems like backwards compatibility doesn't matter really.


I have a Wii U (Pikmin 3 is a good sequel) - and every other Nintendo console since the N64. I have a 360 rather than a PS3 and will probably get a PS4 rather than a XBOne - if the PS4 offered backwards compatibility, it'd be a no-brainer; as is, Kingdom Hearts 3 is tipping the scales for me.

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Re: XBox One

Postby sparkyb » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:51 am UTC

Thesh wrote:The point is that the reason the PS3 outsold the 360 is because Playstation is the more well liked brand; the Xbox One is going to have a difficult enough time overcoming that without the PS4 being cheaper.


I'm not so sure about that. I haven't gotten the impression that Playstation was a more liked brand overall. In fact, without evidence I would have guessed the 360 beat the PS3 for dominant gaming platform. I think it just depends on who you talk to. I think the biggest advantage that the PS3 had in terms of sales is that it also worked as a Bluray player, the best and cheapest one, at the time that media transition was taking place.

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Re: XBox One

Postby keozen » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:24 am UTC

While there is a case for "A company listened to feedback and changed" that's the idealistic way of looking at it. The things they have changed, gone back on and backed out of are changes that even I could see at a glance were features that the game playing community just plain didn't want anywhere near their new consoles (and I'm assuming MS is FULL of better industry experts than I) but they thought they'd be able to slip them in (to their advantage) because (I'm assuming here) they thought Sony was going to do the same and then the consumer would have no choice but to sit back and take it.

There's a difference between announcing that you're going to be selling a widget that comes in black, hearing that your fanbase prefers white and changing it before launch and announcing that you're selling a widget that spys on you, won't let you give it to your friends and only lets you use widget accessories from your own country and only changing it before launch because you're getting scared you'll not sell a single one.
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