World of darkness

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World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:07 am UTC

I'm not entirely sure what the point of this post is, but I just wanted to see if any other XKCDians enjoy WoD (specifically nWoD).

Personally, I started roleplaying with D&D, stayed with it until first year university, then I found world of darkness. Played a few games in the old world. Liked parts of it, like the flavour, but never really got into it fully. Then the nWoD came out, and I was hooked.

Favourite splat: Mages, followed closely by new changelings

Least favourite: Promethians - Damn, I feel they really screwed that one up. It had so much potential. I really wanted to play a game with creatures like Adam from Buffy season 4. But, I just don't see how the game works well.

I currently am playing in a Mage TT game, and a Vamp Larp. I have a changeling game in the wings. I've STed a few Mage games and the changeling demo.
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What are your thoughts about the WoD? Like, hate, GTFO?
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Re: World of darkness

Postby JayDee » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:22 am UTC

I was interested when it came out. It still looks pretty nifty, and I do like the idea of having an apocalypse (or many of them) to end one world so that a new version can come out.

On the other hand, I don't actually play RPGs, I just read rulebooks, so the overly intricate oWoD tends to interest me more.

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Re: World of darkness

Postby trickster721 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:46 am UTC

They got really bad after the first few books. Then they started to come out with second editions, and were good again for a few books, and then they started to suck again. I haven't really looked at these newfangled third editions, from what I've heard it sounds like they're screwed the rules up pretty badly. They're good for ideas, anyway. It seems like they'd really rather be working on a comic book or something.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:49 am UTC

I love Vampire: the Requiem, Changeling: the Lost and Promethean: the Created, but I hate Werewolf: the Forsaken (I'm fairly ambivalent towards Mage: the Awakening)
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Nyarlathotep » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:33 am UTC

Ughhh. Most games have too much angst and wankery for me to get into them.

Vampire: the Masquerade, but only when I get to play Sabbat.
Werewolf: the Apocalypse - Every game I've seen played ended up being angstfests of idiocy, so I never got into it
Changeling: the Dreaming - Looked cool, never got to play
Hunter: the something - Never got to play
Demon: the Fallen - my favourite... I had a FANTASTIC Fiend lined up, she was OBSESSED With the internet, with watching the patterns involved unravel and wind out, to the point that she was pretty much nonfunctional in social situations. But the game never got off the ground.

nWoD can die in a fire. I refer you to the Munchkin card "The Old World is Gone"
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:20 am UTC

Nyarlathotep wrote:nWoD can die in a fire. I refer you to the Munchkin card "The Old World is Gone"


Pretty much my feelings on the matter. Old World was tasty and awesome and everything I like. New World is a perversion of everything good and wholesome and must be cleansed with hot, clean fire.

The exception is Promethean, which is something wholly new and not a perversion of something I once loved. I am also keeping an open mind to Changeling, since I was never terribly attached to that game anyway (mostly due to lack of exposure) and the new one seems so different that it could hardly be called a perversion of anything in the oWoD.

I won't even talk about Requiem, Forsaken, and Awakening. The hate and anger will overtake me too quickly, and from there it's all red lightsabers and random bannings.

I also hate that they took all the rich goodness of "Wraith: the Oblivion" (which had already suffered the indignity of being discontinued hastily), and reanimated its corpse after reducing it to "Oh yeah, and there are ghosts. They're scaaaaaary."

Not to mention the fact that they killed Demon and Mummy before ever giving either the amount of treatment they deserved.

Oh well, at least they haven't tried to reboot Exalted yet...
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Morphing Ball » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:26 am UTC

Well, I've played one WoD campaign (Mage: The Awakening) and I didn't like it. I haven't been too keen on WoD as a whole since then. I believe I've touched upon this before.

I've considered trying other games, but I'm not about to buy a sourcebook myself. That stuff is expensive, I've got by just fine in the past by going to other people's houses and impeding their campaigns.

I can actually get into a role-playing campaign, despite all the times I've just quit them. There was once quite a good D&D campaign where I was a wizard, but then we abruptly stopped that campaign and went with this other guy's dragon-humping bollocks. And I also enjoyed being a War Mage type of character once, and I liked being two different Warblades. Perhaps I'd enjoy roleplaying if people didn't mind me affecting different accents. I like to think I'm putting in a bit more effort.

I must admit though, I really didn't try to get into that one Mage campaign.

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Re: World of darkness

Postby keozen » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:44 pm UTC

I'm currently playing in an online message board based RP set in nWOD. I've got two characters at the moment, one a newly awakened mage and the second will be becoming a werewolf at some point soon by the look of things.

I really like new wod, I wasn't so sure when it first came out but it's growing on me lots. i especially like the new changeling (the lost) it's a million times better than old changeling.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:43 pm UTC

Well, there's no accounting for taste, though about the "the old world is gone" card. Yes it's making fun of the change. I don't think that it's a reason to dislike the new wod. It's essentially a new game. Much in the same way that AD&D and D&D 3 are very different games. Or original D&D to 3.5.

You'll always have people who don't like the change, and they can continue working in the old system (as, really, the books don't turn to ash when new books are created). But, I still think that the new system should at least be given a chance.

If you still don't like it after that, then that's fine. Like I said, no accounting for taste.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:47 pm UTC

Much in the same way that AD&D and D&D 3 are very different games. Or original D&D to 3.5.


Not really a valid comparison, because D&D wasn't and isn't as tied to setting as WoD is. When D&D changed editions the various settings (greyhawk, forgotten realms, dragonlance) didn't change, except that their timelines moved forward a couple years, and the actual game rules changed.

When WoD changed editions, they nuked the entire setting and started over.

2nd Ed D&D to 3rd Ed D&D is more comparable to the release of revised edition werewolf, vampire, and mage in the oWoD: a rules update and a setting advancement, rather than killing it all and starting over.

Needless to say, I'm not overly bothered by the mechanical changes. I've barely looked at them, because I don't even start looking at game mechanics for a new game until I'm done looking at flavor. The setting changes are what bothers me.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:31 pm UTC

If you don't like the flavour, you don't like the flavour. I'm sorry that you don't.
Personally, I like the direction they took. I like the new settings, and the new mechanics.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:45 pm UTC

If you don't like the flavour, you don't like the flavour.


Quite. I loathe the new flavor, and I remain entirely displeased that they killed some of my very favorite games (all of my best roleplaying experiences were in Werewolf: the Apocalypse games*), which, judging by the fact that there were supplements slated to come out which were cancelled as soon as the Time of Judgement was announced, were not done or played out or generally finished, and released all this junk in its place. It's like I'm a kid, and my parents shot my faithful childhood dog in front of me, for the hell of it, and then bought me an Aibo and expected everything to be cool.

Which was what I was expressing. I'm glad that you enjoy it, I really am, but if, tomorrow, White Wolf studios said "What the fuck were we thinking, guys? We're bringing Apocalypse back and burning every Forsaken book on the shelves" I would throw a week long party

*well, not entirely true. One of the top-ranking experiences was in a multi-venue LARP, and involved playing a were-raven who was doing an okay job of passing as a vampire (to the point of forming a close personal bond with a vampire "mentor" and getting somewhat embroiled in vampire politics). So I guess that would kindof qualify as a Masquerade game....
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Re: World of darkness

Postby xooll » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:00 pm UTC

I never played much oWoD, and the little that I did play was run rather poorly, so I can't really weigh in on the comparison. That said, I like nWoD. Promethean is by far my favorite of these--they are just so goddamned cool. I'm currently STing a Requiem LARP and playing in a big-giant-crossover-game-with-entirely-homebrewed-setting and a vampire game in which the PCs are all ghouls. In January I'm going to start playing Changeling: The Lost.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:48 pm UTC

It tried running the prommie demo, and I just didn't like it.
What's it like running it?
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Nyarlathotep » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:48 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Which was what I was expressing. I'm glad that you enjoy it, I really am, but if, tomorrow, White Wolf studios said "What the fuck were we thinking, guys? We're bringing Apocalypse back and burning every Forsaken book on the shelves" I would throw a week long party


Oooh, party! 'cept I would be celebrating the return of Masquerade and things like Tzcimizie and Lasombra and Malkavians :D

Well, and the Sabbat in general.

I must say that I am interested in Promethean because I've heard good things about it and again, it did not take what was a good thing that worked and completely rape it.

And I think that's the thing that bugged me the most. There was nothing wrong with the old settings, save that perhaps the storyline had been advanced too far. I would have liked a few mechanical changes - it would have been nice if in Vampire you couldn't be totally rail-roaded by the first lower-generation fellow who came along, but I could live with that. The fact that they took what was perfectly fine and interesting and got rid of it...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It's why I'm not as angry as I could be at 4th edition DnD. Nothing's happening to my campaign settings, just mechanics. And while I'm upset that I might have to buy more fucking books, I'm going to withhold judgment until I see what they've done with the mechanics.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:03 am UTC

Nyarlathotep wrote:And I think that's the thing that bugged me the most. There was nothing wrong with the old settings, save that perhaps the storyline had been advanced too far. I would have liked a few mechanical changes - it would have been nice if in Vampire you couldn't be totally rail-roaded by the first lower-generation fellow who came along, but I could live with that. The fact that they took what was perfectly fine and interesting and got rid of it...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I whole heartedly disagree, but that's a matter of opinion. There were a lot of problems with the old world, and many if not all that I can think of were updated and fixed in the new world.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:27 am UTC

I prefer Requiem to Masquerade because it is better suited* to the sort of game I want to play: one of personal horror.

To me, Masquerade characters were like a long-forgotten actor living to some unknown script or a puppet that is not truly alive, but merely an imitation being pulled along by the invisible strings of the familiar.

Actually, I don't know which I prefer.

*read: I find it easier
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Re: World of darkness

Postby zenten » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:49 am UTC

Werewolf the Forsaken is one of the best game corebooks ever written. Promethian is a really good attempt to create a game that would depress the hell out of me. Changeling the Lost is probably the most boring corebook to read I've ever encountered, I still haven't gotten through it and I bought it in August.

Changeling the Dreaming will always be my game, even if I haven't played it in awhile.

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Re: World of darkness

Postby Snoof » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:51 am UTC

Nyarlathotep wrote:If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But... it was broken.

The mechanics were clunky in general and nigh-unworkable in crossover scenarioes [1], the metaplot was screaming out of control to the point where there were all these world-shaking events _which the players were completely unable to influence_, there was a severe case of splatbook power creep and the fact that some expansion books were entirely dependent on earlier ones which may or may not be out of print was either frustrating or a cynical grab for money (gotta own 'em all!).

Oh, and the fact that they'd been predicting the End of the World since the very first Masquerade book meant it had to happen at _some_ point.

I agree, there were some excellent ideas and opportunities for roleplaying within the setting. And it's not like the White Wolf Game Police have broken into your house and burned all your oWoD books. It's just that the setting/world/system _needed_ a housecleaning if it was to remain viable. What was left, anyway? Clanbook: You've Never Heard Of Us But We're Really Cool, Honest? A Mage's Guide To Doing Stuff In An Obscure Sector Of The Umbra, Which Is Contractually Required To Influence The Metaplot In Some Way?

For the record, I've played both oWoD and nWoD. Mechanically speaking, the nWoD is much nicer to use and more approachable for new players and I personally find the lack of metaplot and focus on local issues (rather than global, world-spanning and entirely uninteresting conspiracies [2]) a good thing.

[1] Lawnchair vampire, anyone? How about trying to work out if chimeric creations fall under the Sphere of Spirit or Prime or Mind?
[2] Because there's no practical way to get involved in them unless you're a Sam Haight clone or other 8000 experience character.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby FACM » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:13 pm UTC

Gah. Snoof beat me to most of my points. Especially the metaplot and promising the end of the world soon for 10 years. [Antedeluvians were starting to show up, Pentex was the corporate front for the root of all evil in the universe, and Mage had this terrible obsession with some clan of almost-monk mages that weren't the almost-monks in the core for anything plotwise.]

I like the old system to some degree, and the new one maybe slightly more. Both have their issues, but both are also worth playing. Personally, while I'm still trying to get used to the new Mage spell rules, I do not miss having to make 4 rolls to resolve one attack in combat (hit/dodge/damage/soak is a little excesive).

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Re: World of darkness

Postby laranzu » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:11 pm UTC

I've played old Vampire: the Masquerade a few times at roleplaying conventions. The designers at the Canberra RPG con (Phenomenon) are heavily systemless/LARP orientated, so the rule mechanics were largely ignored. I never got involved in the Camarilla, so didn't know nor care whether they stuck to the official setting and timeline.

My regular gaming group looked at V:tM when it first came out, but it was too intense for us as we play primarily to relax and have fun.

While I enjoyed the games I played and can see the attraction of the WoD setting(s), they do make an excellent target for mockery and satire. I bought issue of the White Wolf Magazine, #42, because it has a wickedly funny and all too accurate "Fandom by Night: Your Handbook to Vampire Gamers". And there is Munchkin Bites...

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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:27 pm UTC

Okay, finally have my brain together enough to answer these...

Snoof wrote:The mechanics were clunky in general and nigh-unworkable in crossover scenarioes [1].....

....there was a severe case of splatbook power creep and the fact that some expansion books were entirely dependent on earlier ones which may or may not be out of print was either frustrating or a cynical grab for money (gotta own 'em all!).


System concerns. Did not require setting reboot.

the metaplot was screaming out of control to the point where there were all these world-shaking events _which the players were completely unable to influence_


The idea, of course, was that the metaplot gave you the feeling that the world was not static. It was still moving. It wasn't a video game, where nothing progresses in the world unless you trigger it. Even if your characters just sat on their asses, things still *happened* out in the world. Of *course* your characters weren't routinely influencing them: they're happening far away, and involve other people. If your storyteller is worth a damn, you've got your *own* stuff to do anyway. That's like running a star wars game and objecting that you can't influence the battle of yavin. If your storyteller is worth a damn, you're too busy doing something on Onderon or something to even consider it. Yavin (or the Ahadi's slaying of Blacktooth, or the Fall of the Shadow Curtain, or Albrecht's Adventures in Becoming King of All Under Gaia) is just a news bulletin from a different front, to emphasize that you live in Exciting Times. "That's cool, guys, while we were taking down that Pentex front company and dismantling a vampire conspiracy in Toronto, the Margrave unified the European tribes. Good for him."

But too many people saw that there was a story going on, and whined that they couldn't play in *that*, like they expected White Wolf to release pre-generated adventures for them to take on Zhyzhak or play the Margrave or something. They totally missed the point, and maybe that was White Wolf's fault for not explaining things in short sentences

Oh, and the fact that they'd been predicting the End of the World since the very first Masquerade book meant it had to happen at _some_ point.


Not really, the apocalypse has been foretold since roughly ever, and there's no exact timeframe on it. Furthermore, a storyteller can choose to kick his chronicle into apocalypse mode at any point. I know I played the apocalypse through about 4 years before they ever even announced the Apocalypse book. But the basic premise of the continued sourcebooks was "assuming the world hasn't ended yet, here's what's going on". This made sense: a newly started chronicle would probably start in the present day, and progress forward to a conclusion, apocalypse or otherwise, so the countdown to apocalypse wasn't based in the metaplot, it was based in individual chronicles.

There was never any need to "end the world" in the metaplot, because the metaplot wasn't meant to dictate your campaign, it was meant to enrich it. Storytellers ended the world all the time, and that was their thing.

I agree, there were some excellent ideas and opportunities for roleplaying within the setting. And it's not like the White Wolf Game Police have broken into your house and burned all your oWoD books.


No, just made them nigh impossible to find, deprived us of any current-events updates, and diluted the player base with fans of this new heresy. ::grumble::

It's just that the setting/world/system _needed_ a housecleaning if it was to remain viable. What was left, anyway? Clanbook: You've Never Heard Of Us But We're Really Cool, Honest? A Mage's Guide To Doing Stuff In An Obscure Sector Of The Umbra, Which Is Contractually Required To Influence The Metaplot In Some Way?


I don't know about the vampire line, but Werewolf could have used: Updated breed books, a sourcebook for the Ahadi, and a dozen other sourcebooks that I used to pine for but can't remember at the moment.

Not to million the bloody *squintillion* demon books that could've gotten written but didn't. And I was still waiting on more Mummy.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:42 pm UTC

Personally, I don't like a game company telling me the plot of my games. I like them making settings and allowing me to make my own plot. Yes, you could make your own plot and ignore the overplot, but that's like saying in a starwars game "you don't /have/ to care about the rebellion, it's just the most important thing in the galaxy right now which will have major effects on you in the future/right now".

I didn't like many of the clans near the end. Sure, gangrel, bruja, toreadore... pretty much the base cam are fine (other than tremere), but I wasn't a fan of pretty much anything else. Maybe, if they were, I dunno, NPCs instead of pcs. Not to mention I just can't stand the tremere and their magics are pretty dumb.

I dunno, in general, I wasn't a fan of the setting, and I like how they've changed it from "this is the one way that our world works, everyone knows about caine and the end of the world is coming" to "There are vampires. they've existed for a while. No one knows where they came from, but here are some ideas. And here are some antagonists, their origins can be whatever you want them to be".

Also, the fact that none of the races inherrently hate each other. that's also nice. I don't like when game companies tell me my characters have to feel this way about this person.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:58 pm UTC

Gharbad wrote:Personally, I don't like a game company telling me the plot of my games. I like them making settings and allowing me to make my own plot. Yes, you could make your own plot and ignore the overplot, but that's like saying in a starwars game "you don't /have/ to care about the rebellion, it's just the most important thing in the galaxy right now which will have major effects on you in the future/right now".


Except it *wasn't* the most important thing going. There were always a zillion things going on, and a campaign could go off in myriad directions without really any suspension of disbelief. The NPCs have that metaplot stuff covered, and you could show up and yell "Oh, and we're here too", or you could go find someplace where you'll actually be useful: something someone else isn't already doing

In other words, the metaplot isn't plot, it's current events. It's stuff going on somewhere else.

I didn't like many of the clans near the end. Sure, gangrel, bruja, toreadore... pretty much the base cam are fine (other than tremere), but I wasn't a fan of pretty much anything else. Maybe, if they were, I dunno, NPCs instead of pcs.


Generally, most of them were NPCs. White Wolf wasn't in the habit of telling you what could and couldn't be a PC, though, so rules for playing them were also presented, which also helped in statting them as NPCs. It let you run the type of game with the type of people you wanted, and if you didn't want to play/play with tremere, lasombra, whatever, then having the *option* to do so didn't hurt you: just don't do it, and use them as NPCs.

Not to mention I just can't stand the tremere and their magics are pretty dumb.


Erm...okay.

I dunno, in general, I wasn't a fan of the setting, and I like how they've changed it from "this is the one way that our world works, everyone knows about caine and the end of the world is coming" to "There are vampires. they've existed for a while. No one knows where they came from, but here are some ideas. And here are some antagonists, their origins can be whatever you want them to be".


Meh. If they weren't going to write a setting, they could've just handed you a system and said "make up whatever you want". But then they'd be D&D.

Also, the fact that none of the races inherrently hate each other. that's also nice. I don't like when game companies tell me my characters have to feel this way about this person.


.....Yes, because when the book presents you with a stereotype, you absolutely have to play your character like that. It would be *crazy* for a character to have interests and attitudes that don't fit into the norm.

At least, after hearing arguments like this for long enough, I'm beginning to understand why they killed the oWoD: No one got it.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:35 pm UTC

There's a difference between a stereotype, and the book saying "vampires are the wurm spawn and evil incarnate".

I like games giving me settings and story ideas, instead of overplot. We differ here. I'd rather buy a book of ideas and setting than a book of plot. If I wanted plot, I'd buy the novels.

Also, I prefer the layout of bloodlines in the new setting. They're specifically mentioned as optional. It gives the DM more say when players ask to play them. If someone wants to play a Lasombra in your Cam game, you can always say no, but the rules are right there. Why are they in the base book, fully stated out, if you can't play them?

My statement about the magic was a little silly. What I meant to say was that, while the base book magic was fine, I didn't like all the different paths (path of flame? Path of plants?). Personally, I didn't like how that worked.

The way I see it: If what you miss is the overplot, you can play with it. Put it in your games. Make it so that there's a big global overplot. but, if you don't like it, you can use the setting as you please.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby clockworkmonk » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:48 pm UTC

Gharbad wrote:There's a difference between a stereotype, and the book saying "vampires are the wurm spawn and evil incarnate".

but that was the style White Wolf used.
I mean, in the Mage:the Ascension Core book, The Technocracy are painted as those people who break down doors and steal your children, while in the Technocracy book, they are the last line of sanity, defending us from those crazies trying to bring civilization to its knees.
In the oWoD, White Wolf would paint absurd pictures of all sides involved, depending on where you were viewing the issue from. It was actually something I liked about the style of the books. Every side painted itself as the heroes of the story, and its enemies as baby-eaters, so you could rarely be sure of the actual situation, which I feel enhanced the setting.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:53 pm UTC

clockworkmonk wrote:
Gharbad wrote:There's a difference between a stereotype, and the book saying "vampires are the wurm spawn and evil incarnate".

but that was the style White Wolf used.
I mean, in the Mage:the Ascension Core book, The Technocracy are painted as those people who break down doors and steal your children, while in the Technocracy book, they are the last line of sanity, defending us from those crazies trying to bring civilization to its knees.
In the oWoD, White Wolf would paint absurd pictures of all sides involved, depending on where you were viewing the issue from. It was actually something I liked about the style of the books. Every side painted itself as the heroes of the story, and its enemies as baby-eaters, so you could rarely be sure of the actual situation, which I feel enhanced the setting.
Emphasis mine.
That's what I didn't like. The other supernaturals were considered your enemies, for no reason, instead of being "these things which we don't know a lot about, and which are weird, but maybe useful, maybe evil".
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:56 pm UTC

Gharbad wrote:There's a difference between a stereotype, and the book saying "vampires are the wurm spawn and evil incarnate".


...and then there were the countless examples of Vampires and Werecreatures working around each other, or even interacting on a not-entirely-hostile basis. Not to mention the fact that any vampire with more than 5 humanity didn't show up on "Sense Wyrm"

I like games giving me settings and story ideas, instead of overplot. We differ here. I'd rather buy a book of ideas and setting than a book of plot. If I wanted plot, I'd buy the novels.


I don't know what books you were reading, but for the books I picked up, metaplot was very little of the book. Most of it was setting, some story hooks, some rules, and a few allusions to metaplot sprinkled here and there. People just fixated on the metaplot too much.

Also, I prefer the layout of bloodlines in the new setting. They're specifically mentioned as optional. It gives the DM more say when players ask to play them. If someone wants to play a Lasombra in your Cam game, you can always say no, but the rules are right there. Why are they in the base book, fully stated out, if you can't play them?


Which is the other thing I liked about the oWoD: they didn't childsafe their game. They required storytellers or groups to say "this is the kind of game we're running, this is allowed, this isn't, and I don't care what there are rules for. You're not playing a fomori in my werewolf game, you're not playing a mage in my vampire game, and you're not playing a soulful, high humanity toreador in my Sabbat game. Think for 20 seconds and get back to me"

The game studio telling me what kinds of game I can run? Not the kind of control I like.

My statement about the magic was a little silly. What I meant to say was that, while the base book magic was fine, I didn't like all the different paths (path of flame? Path of plants?). Personally, I didn't like how that worked.


And most of them required special knowledge to gain. Don't like the path? Don't present your characters with the knowledge necessary to even know that path exists in character.

The way I see it: If what you miss is the overplot, you can play with it. Put it in your games. Make it so that there's a big global overplot. but, if you don't like it, you can use the setting as you please.


It would require so much rewriting of rules and setting to arrive at the old setting and story that I'm better off hunting down the old books.

Emphasis mine.
That's what I didn't like. The other supernaturals were considered your enemies, for no reason, instead of being "these things which we don't know a lot about, and which are weird, but maybe useful, maybe evil".


Sometimes they were your enemies, sometimes not. Off the top of your head, how did Vampires and Faeries get along? Tradition Mages and Werewolves? Rokea and Kuei-Jin?

As a separate question, do you think Romeo and Juliet would have been a more interesting story if the Montagues and the Capulets hadn't had any preconceived notions about each other?

Hint, if you have a setting with big groups, sometimes those groups won't like each other. Sometimes, the groups won't know what to make of each other. Sometimes, they'll be grudging friends. Sometimes they won't even be aware of each other. Trying to pretend that *doesn't* happen creates a kindof lame and watered down setting, and pretending that every single supernatural buys their group's party line about "those other people" creates one that is stupidly monochromatic and laden with stereotypes.

The trick was to find a balance, which White Wolf tried to hammer into peoples' heads, but they insisted on seeing the stereotypes as how they *had* to play...
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:43 pm UTC

I disagree with you on a very basic level. I don't understand where you're coming from, and never will.

There's no point in continuing the argument. You bring up points which I don't see as defences, and I keep finding thigns which you don't see as problems. There is no common ground.

Agree to disagree?
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:53 pm UTC

Quite simply, you come from a very different school of thought with reference to games than I do. There are a *lot* of games out there that cater to that school of thought.

WoD was one of the few really good games that catered to *my* school of thought that hadn't gone belly-up by the time I started roleplaying (More-or-less dead settings in this vein: Deadlands, 7th Sea, Legend of the Five Rings). I am simply sad to see that they've gone over to your side, as they were my very favorite.

Agree to disagree.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby JayDee » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:04 am UTC

Gharbad wrote:There's a difference between a stereotype, and the book saying "vampires are the wurm spawn and evil incarnate".

Maybe I'm coming in late, but I most of the White Wolf books I read even used the word stereotype - they'd state clearly that what they were presenting was the stereotype of x clan or whatever. Not that I've ever played the games, but that's one of the reasons I found the books such enjoyable reads.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:43 am UTC

Pretty much. And the stereotypes occupied, like, a sidebar in most books. Maybe a page and half if it was a clan, tribe, breed, or tradition book.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:57 am UTC

Stereotypes are what the group as a whole generally believes about another group.
If the stereotype is "They play their little games, but don't understand what they do" it's fine. It's pretty neutral.
If the stereotype is "They are the spawn of satan,, kill on sight", it's different. Yes, it's just a stereotype, but it wouldn't be a stereotype if most people didn't believe it, or if the group as a whole didn't believe it.

Having a kill on sight stereotype places you firmly in the antagonist role in the setting. Yes, you can make it how you want in your game, but in the base setting, and in the world at large, you have this group of creatures who in general hate you more than anything else.

I prefer games to not have ingrained hatreds. A single person/creature might hate an entire group. But, it's not a colour you can generally wash all of that person's race in.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:21 am UTC

I can't say I really understand that. It's part of the setting. Sometimes, groups don't like each other. Especially if those groups have a history of screwing with each other. Does your modern day setting have no gang warfare? No racial tension in the american south? This is what people do, and supernaturals are, above all, people. That said, vampires and the more rural werewolves were really the only big example of this (aside from the clear antagonists: Sabbat, BSD's, Technocrats) and 90% of the time they never ran into each other.

That said, these are *people*, who spent most of their lives growing up in human society. Just because "leeches are wyrmspawn with no redeeming qualities, kill them all" is the line the elders push, doesn't mean that every werecreature is going to listen. There were quite a lot who basically said "whatever, they're still people, maybe I can learn something"

And occasionally, there was a vampire who could avoid wetting themselves and running away long enough to start chatting.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Nyarlathotep » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:58 am UTC

Belial wrote:I can't say I really understand that. It's part of the setting. Sometimes, groups don't like each other. Especially if those groups have a history of screwing with each other. Does your modern day setting have no gang warfare? No racial tension in the american south? This is what people do, and supernaturals are, above all, people. That said, vampires and the more rural werewolves were really the only big example of this (aside from the clear antagonists: Sabbat, BSD's, Technocrats) and 90% of the time they never ran into each other.

That said, these are *people*, who spent most of their lives growing up in human society. Just because "leeches are wyrmspawn with no redeeming qualities, kill them all" is the line the elders push, doesn't mean that every werecreature is going to listen. There were quite a lot who basically said "whatever, they're still people, maybe I can learn something"

And occasionally, there was a vampire who could avoid wetting themselves and running away long enough to start chatting.


One of my not-so-good characters had a relationship like this. She was a kind of a do-gooder Brujah who believed in helping the unfortunate and the equality of all things, and ended up saving some folk from a werewolf who'd lost control (I think?), which impressed the OTHER werewolf who was there doing damage control. She also had like humanity 8 or something.

He wasn't too keen on her friends (... especially the Tzimizie) and liked her less when BSD's stole his daughter from her. But what was SHE supposed to do?!
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:07 am UTC

Like I said, one of my best gaming experiences was a Corax who infiltrated a Camarilla Elysium (kindof by accident. Long, funny story), and got assigned by the City's prince to a Toreador mentor. In the process of pretending to be friends with his mentor, my character actually ended up becoming really good friends with his vampire mentor and her boyfriend/mutual-blood-bond/whatever, which eventually led to him coming clean with her about his non-vampire-ness. This led to the three of them conspiring to keep his werecreature status secret from the prince, and the vampires using the wereraven as a secret weapon. Eventually, when they got themselves in really, serious trouble with the prince, my character had to smuggle the two leeches (who he was now better friends with than most of the fera in the city) out of the city, *by way of a werewolf caern*. That was a fun group of scenes, let me tell you.

"Oh hai silent striders, you know how vampires threw you out of egypt and made your lives a living hell? Umm..yeah, here's two of them and they need to come through your holy place and the reason you're not smearing my feathery ass clear across the next three blocks is....."

Ahh, crossover LARPS are fun.

And the thing that made the whole situation really interesting and intense to play was the fact that there *was* so much tension, mistrust, rumor, and outright hate between the two groups. Without that, it just would've been three friends hanging out at a coffee shop drinking blood and eating carrion.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:28 pm UTC

Ok.
I'm glad you enjoy the stereotypes as they were presented before. I didn't.

Yes you didn't have to listen to them. You didn't have to use any of the overplot, or anything except the rules. Really, all this setting could be easily thrown out in your games, if you want. You could have only 5 vampire clans if you so choose. But, if I'm going to throw away all the setting thigns I didn't like, I'd rather use the new rules. I like the new world's cleaner rules. They're nicer in general.

I like the setting which they've made, making the game more personal and central to your area, instead of global. I like that individuals have individual hatreds, instead of specific villains. Yes there are antagonists in each book, but they're not the antagonists of the old world. There's no technocracy or sabbat. Just Seers and VII. If you want werewolf antagonists, that's fine. Werewolves aren't buddy buddy with vampires, or mages necessarily. They conflict in the same way people do. But, it's not like the holy land, and there are no societal hatreds. If you want there to be hatreds, you can have them in your area. Or you can have your characters have no idea about these other beings.

This is how I like my game. I understand you don't like it. I'm sorry that your game was destroyed because they wanted to make my game instead.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:20 pm UTC

Gharbad wrote:Yes you didn't have to listen to them. You didn't have to use any of the overplot, or anything except the rules. Really, all this setting could be easily thrown out in your games, if you want. You could have only 5 vampire clans if you so choose. But, if I'm going to throw away all the setting thigns I didn't like, I'd rather use the new rules. I like the new world's cleaner rules. They're nicer in general.


Except I wasn't talking about tossing things out. I'm saying that individual characters, as *people*, chose how they, personally, interacted with the stereotypes.

Werewolves, on the whole, hate Vampires. Does that mean my Werewolf has to? Can he form his own opinion? Can he ignore the advice of his elders and make his own mistakes and triumphs, try to use vampires or make deals with them, and either get burned or form unheard of alliances for the greater good? Of course he can. Does that require someone to write the stereotype out of the game? No, it just requires my *character* to make his own decision in regards to it. The disapproval of his society, and the secrecy required to pull it off, are part of the list of *challenges* that make that decision interesting.

The interaction between society and individual, the push and pull between the "wisdom" of one's peers and elders, and one's own experience, is *interesting*. It makes for interesting, deep gameplay.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Jessica » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:41 pm UTC

The interaction between society and individual, the push and pull between the "wisdom" of one's peers and elders, and one's own experience, is *interesting*. It makes for interesting, deep gameplay.


You can have that without WW telling the players "oh, and here's another antagonist whom in general your society hates". If you want your city to hate vampires/mages/werewolves, you can have your city hate vampires/mages/werewolves. I don't need white wolf to tell me that your society hates this person for no really good reason. You can still have games where your character hates someone. you can have games where your society hates someone. It's just not the base reaction the game is putting forward.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I prefer constructive then destructive. I'd rather have a game be a setting and rules at it's base which I can add to as I wish, then to have a game which has a whole bunch of things in it to start with, which I have to prune away to get what I want.
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Re: World of darkness

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:01 pm UTC

What drew me to the world of darkness originally was that it *was* such a richly developed setting. As such, I rarely pruned anything away. On top of all the complexity of the modern world, there was this secret, shadow world laid behind it with its own relations, its own groups, its own grudges and vendettas, alliances and wars, and that was *awesome*.

Werewolves had a perfectly good reason for disliking vampires. Werewolves were, on the whole, intensely spiritual creatures, engaged in a war against the unbalance of the universe itself. Vampires were, spiritually speaking, the very embodiment of everything that the Garou were at war with: the undying stasis of the weaver wrapped around the corruption and wanton destruction of the wyrm. Some Garou recognized that, under all of that symbolism there was actually a person, and that maybe that person could do some good, but overall, on balance, it was best to put them out of their misery.

And that kind of hatred made sense. That was what I liked: everything made sense. They plopped these groups into the world, and then developed realistic relationships between them, and everything fit together. It seems like they've stripped a lot of that down and obliterated the interesting aspects of it in order to make the setting more...generic. And we already had GURPS for that.

Meh.

I also mourn what they've done to the spirit world. It used to be rich and symbolic and important. You could run long vision quests and voyages of self discovery and madness in there. Now it seems to just be "a bad place where scary things come from" and the Garou (or whatever they're calling them now) are just ghostbusters with fur.

Sigh.
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