Diablo III

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not baby Newt
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Re: Diablo III

Postby not baby Newt » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:46 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Avin wrote:I think my gear is significantly stronger than the gear I've seen posted on DHs that cleared inferno, even pre damage nerf, so I must be doing something wrong. My passives are Archery, Steady Aim, and Tactical Advantage; I've tried various combination of active skills though against Belial and the best I can do is get his final form down to around half health, and that requires me fortunately dodging tons of his attacks. Any suggestions? Any other DHs here past that point?


If you consistently get to his final form then its just practice. Maybe melee classes can take some of those hits but the big explosion things (when he puts his arms into the ground) were one shotting my wizard through force armor AND diamond skin, so I just had to dodge them. Does smokescreen avoid those? If so save your discipline for that. Also sharpshooter seems ideal for that kind of fight where you're not attack often because you're running back and forth. Makes those attacks you do throw more likely to be crits.

The melee attacks can be avoided. Here's a very instructional video. Found it very helpful with my barbarian just before 1.03 (since then I need to tank the melee attacks to be done in four minutes).

Main points:
Ground glows green before single attacks.
If he attacks to your left, you should run left because he will then attack to your right then double-slam where you stood when the combo started.
Standing rightmost is possibly safe from breath.

And, uh, don't panic during bombardment, unless you've been fighting fourish minutes and doom is happening.

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Decker
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Decker » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:18 am UTC

not baby Newt wrote:And, uh, don't panic during bombardment, unless you've been fighting fourish minutes and doom is happening.

I've only just beat him in Hell, and not Inferno, but one thing I noticed about the bombardment is that it's a lot easier to manage if you run along the outer edge and don't get cornered. I got myself cornered at the right end a couple times and I got killed PDQ.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Laserdan » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:49 am UTC

This is page 37 of the thread. Hopefully, the thread doesn't become unreachable...
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Aaeriele » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:01 pm UTC

Laserdan wrote:This is page 37 of the thread. Hopefully, the thread doesn't become unreachable...


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Re: Diablo III

Postby jawdisorder » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:09 pm UTC

Finally made it to inferno last night. We'll see how it works out for me tonight.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Decker » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:39 am UTC

I beat the Butcher on Inferno! It only took two tries! I got three achievements for it! The room is on fire a lot! Exclamation point!

My current build is using Sharpshooter + Archery + Crossbow + some more Critical Damage bonuses which translates to opening volley of pain for most of my skills. If I can see them coming and have time to lay down three long fuse traps, pull them into it, and then fire off Rain of Vengance with Beastly Bombs and then it's just a matter of cleaning up what's left over.

If I don't have time to prep I end up using Vault a lot.

Edit: Ooookay. Upon starting act 2, it looks like I'm going to be switching things up a bit.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Lostdreams » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:40 pm UTC

Act 4 inferno now. I use Hungering arrow with devouring rune, and elemental arrow with either ball lightning or frost arrow. Ball lightning can hit looser groups and is forgiving on near misses; frost arrow hits harder and is better for kiting because of the slow. For defense I use preparation with backup plan rune, shadow power with gloom rune AND smoke screen with the time increase rune.

The last slot is a non-essential which can be a range of things. Caltrops with bait the traps is the good damage but it forces you to stay on the trap or burn more discipline casting a new one if you aren't killing fast enough. The bat pet is good if you find yourself running out of hatred a lot(a common thing if your DPS is low, leading to prolonged fights). Right now I'm using marked for death as it is very useful for rare enemies, especially invulnerable minions type.

I use the archery, steady aim, and tactical advantage passives. Sharp shooter is good for frontloading damage if you have high crit damage and use slower skills like ball lightning but you'll probably drop it at ~30% crit.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:51 am UTC

Finally got my DH up to 60 over this past weekend, and got REALLY lucky on my monk in an A1 run. Found a WD offhand with amazing stats that sold for 30 million, which allowed me to gear up my DH a little bit. Currently sitting on around 42k DPS without Sharpshooter, around 350 RA, 2400 armor, and 32k life. I really like the playstyle, I feel like it's what my Wizard wishes it could be. I have just enough defensive stats to allow myself to get hit two or three times, but do enough damage that things rarely reach me before they die. It's quite fun. I currently need to upgrade a few pieces (I'm still rocking mid-40 to mid-50 level gear in my head, chest, boots and one ring), so I definitely could get a good deal better as time progresses. Currently pushing through A2 without too many issues. Obviously if I get stuck in a corner or something or come across a Waller type, it gets rough, but in general I don't die all that much.

Though, I will say that gear is crazy expensive. The base price for dex boots with run speed and either vit or RA is in the neighborhood of like 5 million, often higher. I don't even understand how they jumped so much, since when I was gearing out my Monk I only spent 300k on the same thing. Probably those damn gold botters artificially inflating prices. Luckily weapons are pretty common, so I got a 960 DPS bow with Dex and 60ish crit damage for around 500k. Still looking to get one with LOH (of which I currently have none), but in general I think I'm doing ok.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Drumheller769 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:18 pm UTC

How does one get any large amount of money, I have 1 level 60 monk and I have never been over 200k in gold. What am I doing wrong, or am I just unlucky, or am I not playing enough?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Prior to finding that item, I never had more than a million at any one time. It's really all about waiting for that one big thing to drop that you can sell for a boatload of money.

For some people that happens in a few hours of farming, for others (like me) it happens after a month or so, for other it may never happen. Random numbers are random, after all.

There are things you can do to increase your chances, of course. Killing things quicker, getting more magic find, farming later acts (although this one isn't always possible). That's why I made a DH, so I could capitalize on the "kill things quicker" category. It seems to be working out so far.

However, there's also the smaller group of people that really understands economics and how people use the AH. If you can manage to figure that out, and don't mind sitting behind a menu screen all day instead of actually playing, then you can make a lot more money than hoping to find that one uber item to sell. Personally, I actually like playing the game, and the AH usually bores me if I am searching for more than five or ten minutes at a time for gear, so I choose to farm.

Edit: Alternatively, people have been going to the Trade channel and auctioning off their unidentified ilvl63 items as well. You can usually get at least 200k per armor piece and 350k per weapon, so some people do that as well. And I definitely understand that, it's a much more stable cash flow. I might start doing that now that I can farm more effectively.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:55 pm UTC

Obby wrote:Though, I will say that gear is crazy expensive. The base price for dex boots with run speed and either vit or RA is in the neighborhood of like 5 million, often higher. I don't even understand how they jumped so much, since when I was gearing out my Monk I only spent 300k on the same thing. Probably those damn gold botters artificially inflating prices. Luckily weapons are pretty common, so I got a 960 DPS bow with Dex and 60ish crit damage for around 500k. Still looking to get one with LOH (of which I currently have none), but in general I think I'm doing ok.


Prices are increasing on the very best gear. The mid tier stuff is decreasing rapidly in price. I picked up a ton of Str/Vit/All res gear for my barb at extremely good prices. If you're looking for a piece of gear with something like 150 dex/150 vit/50 All res, yeah its going to be super expensive. But a piece with 100 dex/80 vit/50 all res is probably pretty dirt cheap.

For boots, consider looking for less than 12% run speed. The price difference between 10% and 12% is HUGE. Just like the difference when looking for magic find is huge between 18% and 20%.

Drumheller769 wrote:How does one get any large amount of money, I have 1 level 60 monk and I have never been over 200k in gold. What am I doing wrong, or am I just unlucky, or am I not playing enough?


Farm Act 1. Sell the good stuff on the AH, salvage the ilvl 61+ stuff (ilvl 60 for rings/amulets/follower items). You need to know what people look for on items. Items without a high base stat (Str/Dex/Int) are unlikely to be that valuable. Everyone wants their base stat on almost every piece of gear. Clearly there are some exceptions (jewelery can be very good without base stats but is still better with). Less than 100 base stat needs to be made up for by a good number of other things. Gloves, bracers, helms, rings and amulets can all have crit chance on them. Gloves, rings and amulets can have attack speed and crit damage as well. The other pieces (chest, shoulders, legs, belt, boots) generally want main stat+vit+all res to be very valuable. Magic find and gold find can mitigate and make a piece of gear valuable as well if its missing some of the defensive stats. Movement speed on boots is also very sought after and makes them quite valuable. You get a feel for what's valuable as you farm more. Put those aside and then search for similar statted items on the AH and check prices and put yours up for similar prices.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Negated » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:15 pm UTC

I got bored of farming Inferno Act 1 with WD and started a Barb just over a week ago. Now the Barb is level 54 and somewhat struggling in act 2 Hell.

Playing a melee character is a totally different experience. WD is rarely bothered by plague, molten, or fire chain. But the Barb really has a hard time against these. Fire chain in particular is deadly. The AI is smart enough to circle you to melt you away with the chain. I have tried Ground stomp, Overpower, Leap, and Furious Charge to help, but none seems like a satisfactory solution.

I am twerking the Barb constantly. Here is the latest build. As you can see the build is quite defensive. Mostly relying on crits to keep Overpower's damage redirection up while healing with Revenge. Furious charge is the emergency escape skill (with horribly long animation).

Frenzy - Sidearms
Furious Charge - Reduce CD per enemy hit (forgot the name)
Ground Stomp - Increase radius and suck enemies in
Overpower - Redirect 30% damage for 4 seconds
Revenge - Provocation
War Cry - Increase Life and life regen

Passives: Ruthless, Weapon Mastery, +Armor per Vit

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:34 pm UTC

Negated wrote:I got bored of farming Inferno Act 1 with WD and started a Barb just over a week ago. Now the Barb is level 54 and somewhat struggling in act 2 Hell.

Playing a melee character is a totally different experience. WD is rarely bothered by plague, molten, or fire chain. But the Barb really has a hard time against these. Fire chain in particular is deadly. The AI is smart enough to circle you to melt you away with the chain. I have tried Ground stomp, Overpower, Leap, and Furious Charge to help, but none seems like a satisfactory solution.

I am twerking the Barb constantly. Here is the latest build. As you can see the build is quite defensive. Mostly relying on crits to keep Overpower's damage redirection up while healing with Revenge. Furious charge is the emergency escape skill (with horribly long animation).

Frenzy - Sidearms
Furious Charge - Reduce CD per enemy hit (forgot the name)
Ground Stomp - Increase radius and suck enemies in
Overpower - Redirect 30% damage for 4 seconds
Revenge - Provocation
War Cry - Increase Life and life regen

Passives: Ruthless, Weapon Mastery, +Armor per Vit


I'm running (at 60 granted so some runes may not be available)
Frenzy - Sidearm
Revenge - the 30% chance one
Ignore Pain - 20% lifesteal one
Leap - 300% armor one
War cry - +50% resistances one (I think this is level 60 req though)
Wrath of the Beserker - +100% damage

Passives are armor per vit, superstition or the 25% armor one and the one that gives 25% damage increase when rage is full. I have no rage spenders except wrath and ignore pain so my rage is almost constantly fully meaning nearly a passive 25% damage increase.

Leap is a fantastic escape skill AND defensive cooldown. 300% armor is HUGE. I belive in my current setup it is more damage reduction than Ignore Pain. Plus being able to Leap - Ignore Pain - Leap gives quite a bit of time of near invulnerability. I didn't like the long cooldown abilities but Wrath of the Beserker really just lets me stand there and spam Frenzy/Revenge in the middle of a group of elites. With a bit of LOH the attack speed increase from Wrath + Frenzy means you're regenerating SUPER fast. I only started using it in Inferno, but it would have let me breeze through hell (I did use it + earthquake for stationary bosses and they're just a joke like that).

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Nylonathatep » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:49 pm UTC

Negated wrote:
Frenzy - Sidearms
Furious Charge - Reduce CD per enemy hit (forgot the name)
Ground Stomp - Increase radius and suck enemies in
Overpower - Redirect 30% damage for 4 seconds
Revenge - Provocation
War Cry - Increase Life and life regen

Passives: Ruthless, Weapon Mastery, +Armor per Vit


My Current Build Is very similar to yours

Frenzy - Sidearms
Revenge - Provocation

Ground Stomp - Increase radius and suck enemies in
Furious Charge - Juggernaut Biatch one (gives you life per enemy hit)
Wrath of the Berserker - Insanity
Ignore Pain - Gain life Rune

Passive:
Tough as Nail (+25% armor)
Superstitution (+20 all resist)
+Armor per Vital

It's basically A Tanking build... you Ground stomp to draw enemy in so they attack you instead... Revenge is your main DPS and the thing that's keeping you alive. You can quickly DPS down Elites with Wrath used in combination with Ignore pain if they happen to be Descreate/Fire Chains/Molten/Arcane Enchanted. Pray you killed the elites first before they kill you.

Barbarians are very dependant on Gear for their survivability. Minus some weird range builds, most Barbs and Barbies requires to be in melee range and standing at one spot to dps. On the other hand, other class loves you if you do your job properly.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Drumheller769 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:57 pm UTC

Anyone have any monk builds that they are successful with? I have tried several, but still get wrecked by most blues/elites. Im trying to avoid spending all my money on the AH to upgrade my gear. Im hoping to not have to do that.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:07 pm UTC

Negated wrote:I got bored of farming Inferno Act 1 with WD and started a Barb just over a week ago. Now the Barb is level 54 and somewhat struggling in act 2 Hell.

Playing a melee character is a totally different experience. WD is rarely bothered by plague, molten, or fire chain. But the Barb really has a hard time against these. Fire chain in particular is deadly. The AI is smart enough to circle you to melt you away with the chain. I have tried Ground stomp, Overpower, Leap, and Furious Charge to help, but none seems like a satisfactory solution.

I am twerking the Barb constantly. Here is the latest build. As you can see the build is quite defensive. Mostly relying on crits to keep Overpower's damage redirection up while healing with Revenge. Furious charge is the emergency escape skill (with horribly long animation).

Frenzy - Sidearms
Furious Charge - Reduce CD per enemy hit (forgot the name)
Ground Stomp - Increase radius and suck enemies in
Overpower - Redirect 30% damage for 4 seconds
Revenge - Provocation
War Cry - Increase Life and life regen

Passives: Ruthless, Weapon Mastery, +Armor per Vit

Yeah my barb has a hard time in hell also, currently at 53. My build is a little different than yours though. I'm running:

LMB - Frenzy - Heal on kill (only using until I unlock the damage one)
RMB - Furious Charge - Cooldown reduction
Revenge - 30% activation chance
War Cry - 10% life and life regen (only until I unlock the resistance one)
Battle Rage - 30% damage
Wrath of the Berzerker - 100% damage

Passives: Armor from vit, shout duration increased and adds life regen, and my last spot is constantly switching between 3% damage as life, Ruthless for the crit chance and damage, and Weapons Master for the added weapon effect. I can't just pick one of these and stick with it, so it's changing pretty much every other champion pack.

I pretty much keep Battle Rage and War Cry up at all times. I use Furious Charge as my crowd reducing ability, since it's completely spammable if there are more than 4 enemies, and then use Frenzy to finish everything off. Revenge procs are used when they occur, and Wrath is saved for tougher elites and champions, and for bosses. It was pretty effective until I got to act 2 hell, and then my lack of life on hit really started to be a nuisance. I need to upgrade that a little bit before I will want to continue playing him (I've shelved him for my DH for now). Only sitting on around 50 life on hit, which isn't really all that great with 22k life.

Edit:


Drumheller769 wrote:Anyone have any monk builds that they are successful with? I have tried several, but still get wrecked by most blues/elites. Im trying to avoid spending all my money on the AH to upgrade my gear. Im hoping to not have to do that.

My Monk build I like a lot, though it's a pretty standard tank one.

LMB - Crippling Wave - 25% Enemy damage reduction
RMB - Cyclone Strike - 20% Dodge chance (want to swap, but I don't know with what that will be as useful)
Breath of Heaven - 15% Damage increase
Serenity - Healing (might swap it for the increased duration, but the heal is useful)
Sweeping Wind - Double damage
Mantra of Evasion - 20% Armor

Passives: Resolve (25% enemy damage reduction), Sieze the Initiative (100% of dex as armor) and One with Everything (every resistance is now your highest resistance)

Sweeping Wind and Crippling Wave are my damage dealers. Just keep Sweeping Wind up as much as possible during a fight, and keep an eye on your Mantra time, and you pretty much won't die as long as you have a baseline gear level. Cyclone Strike is really good for gathering up the mobs near you and for pulling the mobs back into your fists that like to run away (like those fucking wasps in act 2). I typically save Serenity for mobs with CC effects like Frozen or Jailer, or if I'm really getting messed up by a Plagued/Desecrator combo or something like that. And I pretty much only have Breath of Heaven for the damage increase, as the healing amount on it is mediocre at best with 42k life. I run with around 850 life on hit with my Monk (using two weapons, no shield) and I breeze through act 1 like cake. My damage is somewhat low overall because my weapon damage is low, but I haven't died on him in weeks thanks to my high dodge (around 65%), high armor (around 70%), enemy damage reduction and high life on hit. I would venture into act 2, but until I get better weapons I just can't reliably kill things there. But that's why I have my DH :)

One With Everything is pretty essential for a cheap build, I think. It allows you to only stack one resistance type, or double stack with RA and one resistance type for a massive boost (meaning you can get 100+ RA from one item).
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Re: Diablo III

Postby ProZac » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:59 pm UTC

I just hit A4 inferno with my monk, and this is what I've been running pretty much all through inferno (not too much different from above):

LMB - Deadly Reach - 50% armor rune : Nice defensive boost, with the ability to damage things without being next to them. Useful for kiting elites, not being in molten/plague/desecrate.
RMB - Mantra of Evasion - 20% Armor : Best Defense Aura, and also my 'spirit dump'.
Serenity - Healing
Breath of Heaven - 15% Damage
Sweeping Wind - Critnado : I recently picked up enough crit for this, but I was running the extra damage one before it
Mystic Ally - Earth Ally : Dude makes an excellent off tank/distraction. Just be prepared to never see a Treasure Goblin again, b/c if he senses one within a couple screens, he will turn into a Hulk/Flash hybrid, ripping through walls at breakneck speeds, just to punch that bastard *once*.

Passives: Resolve (25% enemy damage reduction), Sieze the Initiative (100% of dex as armor) and Transcendence (Healing per spirit spent) : I never got into One with Everything. It was always a minor increase on my other resists, usually about 5% damage reduction.

As above, I loved Cyclone strike all through hell, but in Inferno, I don't want large groups on me, and it winds up being redundant with Mantra of Evasion for the only useful rune.

I run with 0 life on hit, 15000 dps (18000 with BoH), somewhere around 32-35k life, around 10k armor with my mantra up, and *I think* between 600-700 on my resists. I do use a shield, as block is just huge. My dodge chance is about 40% with the mantra (45% active) which brings me to.....
Obby wrote:with 42k life. I run with around 850 life on hit with my Monk (using two weapons, no shield) and I breeze through act 1 like cake. My damage is somewhat low overall because my weapon damage is low, but I haven't died on him in weeks thanks to my high dodge (around 65%), high armor (around 70%),
Good lord! How in God's name did you get that much dodge? I figured getting anything much over 50% would be nigh impossible due to the hard diminishing returns. Even with those stats, you shouldn't have too much trouble in A2. When I farm A1/A2 I swap my mantra for Conviction/Overawe and sometimes swap into some MF gear with less defense and handle it fine. And that was before the damage nerf.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:34 pm UTC

I could be mis-remembering. I haven't been playing my Monk recently. It's possible it's only 45%, I honestly don't remember. I haven't played the game in a while due to being busy with work and trying to play the games I'm getting from the steam sale right now.

And I haven't done act 2 on him because his damage is horrible. I can stand there and tank most things in act 2, but it takes forever to kill anything. I just use my DH for act 2, he does around 50k DPS now without Sharpshooter and doesn't have that many issues.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby ProZac » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:51 pm UTC

Yeah, the idea of hitting anywhere near that kind of dps is absurd to me. I've dropped to only playing with a group of friends (tank monk, tank wizard, and 2 DH's), and only playing to clear inferno. Once that's done, I'm getting rid of everything I have, cashing out on the RMAH, and hoping Torchlight 2 is a little more enjoyable.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:16 pm UTC

At least Torchlight 2 is only $20 right now. And you get Torchlight with it as a bonus.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:56 pm UTC

People keep thinking inferno is like hell mode on Diablo 2. It's just not true. Hell mode in Diablo 2 is just like hell mode in Diablo 3. Inferno is so you have some purpose for all your gear lust and min-maxing. It's supposed to provide a challenge for even the best players with the best gear. The game is also young in the lifecycle. There will be inevitable gear creep as they introduce new stuff, expansions, etc. They've already discussed changing the uniques. Hell mode you can over-level for. Being 60 in act 2 of hell? Even with crap gear and builds it's pretty easy at that point. Even act 4 hell is not much of a challenge for a level 60 with even 100k worth of AH gear on. Inferno is for people who want to spend vast sums of money (in-game or otherwise) on gear. It's part of the financial model too. People without patience will happily spend USD to turn inferno into hell through gear.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Nylonathatep » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:19 pm UTC

Obby wrote:At least Torchlight 2 is only $20 right now. And you get Torchlight with it as a bonus.



I do read from a lot of boards that people are frustarted about D3 and quitting. I don't understand the frustration thou. I used to play WoW back when it first started and I guess I'll use it as a benchmark comparison.

1) Group play is friendly for D3... in WoW you need certain class to do dungeons, Raids, takes forever to LFG on Trade chat, and later in LFG chat. Situation only improved in Wrath of the Lich King when they use queing for Dungeons across servers.. even then you have a wait time if you happen to be non-tank/non-healer.

2) D3 is relatively Casual friendly. You can play and quit at any given time. Just turn off the game when you got Wife aggro or when you hear the kids crying. You don't have a raid schedule so nobody is going to give you crap if you didn't show up at a certain time. There's no 60s waiting to gank you when you are tryint to level. You don't need to farm for gear. You can just buy it off AH for cheap gold... in Vanilla WoW there's only a certain % that a boss will drop that one piece of gear that you'll need and it's the only way you can get that gear. Take it from a guy that does like a dozen Bar room shanker runs in BRD and takes like 3 months to get all the shadowcraft gear for my Rogue.

3) End Game is readily available for any players that beaten Act 4 inferno and spending some gold on All Resist gear. It's challenging but it's not Nintendo Hard... Comparing to when MC first game out, only about 5% of the WoW population gets to see it. I ended up rerolling a healing druid, and gets lucky enough to be picked up by an upcoming guild when I PuG healed for them. They were impressed with my "Watching bar goes down, make bar goes up" skills and eveuntually we have enough ppl to do Zul'Grub.. and only WHEN we can clear Zul'Grub on a consistance bases that we are able to do go in to MC just to wipe on Magmardar week after weeks... and finally making breakthrough on each bosses to clear MC before BWL comes out... ofcourse BWL killed our guild and the next expasion comes.


Yet somehow... WoW has staying power and is still a game in which we pay 12.99 per month to play... as gamers, are we really masochists?

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:31 pm UTC

I agree that there's an unbelievably high amount of bitching going on about the game, but I did want to respond to a few points you've made;
Nylonathatep wrote:Group play is friendly for D3...[compared to wow due to roles]

In D3, each class is capable of stand alone success. GF and MF are averaged among the group, meaning unless someone has equal or greater MF/GF than you, or can completely carry you, there's actually nothing encouraging group play. I find the disparity between any two characters is typically pretty significant too.

That said, it's easier and more painless to hop into a game and start clicking on monsters in D3 than in WoW, certainly. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), not every class has 'support' abilities that would make them necessary for a specific situation.

Nylonathatep wrote: D3 is relatively Casual friendly

This is absolutely true prior to hitting 60. Unfortunately, many people think (quite stupidly) that the game 'starts' at 60. After 60, the game ceases being very casual friendly, and you have to start getting very serious about stat placement and build synergies. I think the gear advancement in WoW post level cap is strikingly easier than the gear advancement in D3 post level cap.

Nylonathatep wrote:End Game is readily available for any players that beaten Act 4 inferno and spending some gold on All Resist gear.

Huh? A4 Inferno is the end game.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby setzer777 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:36 pm UTC

Yeah, I didn't think there were any more challenges to complete once you can beat A4 Inferno - except maybe hunt for items with nephalim stacks to get even better gear so you can beat Act 4 faster?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Negated » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:17 am UTC

When PvP comes out, it can potentially become the new end game. But before that, you can find new challenges in Hardcore mode for bragging rights and ragequits.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:18 am UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:
Obby wrote:At least Torchlight 2 is only $20 right now. And you get Torchlight with it as a bonus.



I do read from a lot of boards that people are frustarted about D3 and quitting. I don't understand the frustration thou. I used to play WoW back when it first started and I guess I'll use it as a benchmark comparison.

1) Group play is friendly for D3... in WoW you need certain class to do dungeons, Raids, takes forever to LFG on Trade chat, and later in LFG chat. Situation only improved in Wrath of the Lich King when they use queing for Dungeons across servers.. even then you have a wait time if you happen to be non-tank/non-healer.

2) D3 is relatively Casual friendly. You can play and quit at any given time. Just turn off the game when you got Wife aggro or when you hear the kids crying. You don't have a raid schedule so nobody is going to give you crap if you didn't show up at a certain time. There's no 60s waiting to gank you when you are tryint to level. You don't need to farm for gear. You can just buy it off AH for cheap gold... in Vanilla WoW there's only a certain % that a boss will drop that one piece of gear that you'll need and it's the only way you can get that gear. Take it from a guy that does like a dozen Bar room shanker runs in BRD and takes like 3 months to get all the shadowcraft gear for my Rogue.

3) End Game is readily available for any players that beaten Act 4 inferno and spending some gold on All Resist gear. It's challenging but it's not Nintendo Hard... Comparing to when MC first game out, only about 5% of the WoW population gets to see it. I ended up rerolling a healing druid, and gets lucky enough to be picked up by an upcoming guild when I PuG healed for them. They were impressed with my "Watching bar goes down, make bar goes up" skills and eveuntually we have enough ppl to do Zul'Grub.. and only WHEN we can clear Zul'Grub on a consistance bases that we are able to do go in to MC just to wipe on Magmardar week after weeks... and finally making breakthrough on each bosses to clear MC before BWL comes out... ofcourse BWL killed our guild and the next expasion comes.


Yet somehow... WoW has staying power and is still a game in which we pay 12.99 per month to play... as gamers, are we really masochists?

Which is all well and good, but none of that is why I don't really play D3 anymore. There are a few reasons why I stopped.

One of the major reasons is that items are too expensive to buy anymore thanks to the artificial inflation being imposed because of the AH. I could farm, but I just don't have the time or desire to spend hours upon hours farming for the remote chance that I get something one of my characters can actually use (or that someone else can use and I can sell it to them). That's the main reason I stopped playing WoW, because the grind just stopped being fun. I enjoyed raiding in WoW for the encounters, so a couple times doing MC or Naxx or whatever instance was fun and entertaining. Doing them for the hundredth, or three hundredth time is not my idea of fun. Killing the Butcher four or five times an hour every day after I get home from work until I go to bed is not fun. Similarly, sitting in front of the AH screen and playing the AH for gold is just as boring to me. I could do it, but why bother when steam is having so many awesome sales for great games right now?

If I don't want to farm, what else is there to do in the game? Sure, I could level another character... but I already have three level 60's, and a 53 barbarian. There's not really much leveling left for me to do, and none of my friends play anymore for me to level with.

I had fun with D3 while it lasted, but the fun ran out for me. I can't say I regret buying it, but I can't say it was $60 well spent, either. I'll just wait until the PvP patch or something before jumping back in. In the mean time, I've got some Civ 5 that's begging to be played.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:00 pm UTC

Obby wrote:If I don't want to farm, what else is there to do in the game? Sure, I could level another character... but I already have three level 60's, and a 53 barbarian. There's not really much leveling left for me to do, and none of my friends play anymore for me to level with.


If you don't enjoy farming then I do suspect you'll tire quickly of D3. Just like you'd tire of D2 or D1. Diablo games are all about farming. Its killing monsters for better gear so that you can go out and kill monsters faster...for even better gear. People remember D2 with a lot of nostalgia, but have you ever tried to solo farm a full Immortal King's set in D2? Or farm to get enough high runes to make an Enigma? Without trading this was extremely unlikely. Even with trading I imagine it would be similar to what we have in D3 now, except rampant duping made things far more available than the drop %s would have indicated.

I see tons of complaints that everything is too expensive (note: not just referring to Obby's post but more generally on Blizzard forums and the like). Thing is it only seems to be the extremely top end gear that is so expensive. I spent 4 million gold on a weapon for my barb and maybe another 2 million on gear and that got him up to 22k dps (without including frenzy attack speed), 800 all res and 8.5k armor. That's EASILY enough to farm act 2 and to progress through act 3. Looking now, I could have bought all the gear, not including the weapon for less than a million. The mid tier items are dropping in price FAST. Its just the godly pieces of gear that remain extremely expensive. I mean for my wizard its nearly impossible for me to find any decent gear for cheap because all my gear has 100+ int on it and 15+ MF. But that's fine. I farm until I find a sweet piece of gear and trade for an upgrade or sell it and buy and upgrade. Its exactly how it was in D2 except you have the ease of an AH and the granularity of using gold to buy things instead of high runes and SOJs.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:30 pm UTC

Obby wrote:I can't say I regret buying it, but I can't say it was $60 well spent, either.

Can I ask what your combined total play time is for each character?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:08 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Obby wrote:I can't say I regret buying it, but I can't say it was $60 well spent, either.

Can I ask what your combined total play time is for each character?

If you're going to talk about money spent per hour played, then yes it was a good value and there were certainly other games that had a much higher dollar per hour played value than D3 for me. Across all of my characters I'd estimate I have played for approximately 130 or 140 hours, give or take. I just feel like the $60 and the 140ish hours could have been better spent doing other things after looking back on it, but it was far from the biggest waste of money/time that I've had.

Don't misunderstand me: I had fun with D3 while it lasted. As I said, I don't regret buying it, and leveling with my friends was quite fun. But the endgame, even though it's largely similar to D2 (which I dumped thousands upon thousands of hours in to), failed to suck me in. It might be the price of the good gear, it might be that my friends stopped playing and left me by myself, it might be that when I played D2 I loved farming, and now I do not. It could be something else that I can't place my finger on at the moment. But at the end of the day, it just comes down to me not having as much fun playing the game, and why put time into it if I'm not having fun?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:15 pm UTC

Diablo's a game you can play when you feel like it and leave alone when you don't. You aren't penalized (new tiered gear in wow coming out) for not "keeping up". Future patches and expansions will see surges of players returning. Diablo is filled with people who do it for a time and then move on. Rarely did somebody grind D2 for more than like a year. There's only so many cow games you can do...
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:35 pm UTC

Yeah, I think my tastes as a gamer have changed since D2. Shrug. I'll still hop in and play an hour here and there.

I think though, getting multiple hundreds of hours of entertainment from a game means that game is pretty good.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby philsov » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:58 pm UTC

I don't understand the frustration thou.


It's more how the scaling occurred, I think.

There isn't much of a middle ground between facetanking everything in sight and getting one-shot. I've made it into act 4 inferno and unless I drastically regear the playstyle is the same regardless of what mobs I'm encountering. That is, snare whatever's in front of me, lob some long range AoE at them, run away some, and continue attacking/snaring unless either them or I is dead. It's especially frustrating in Act4 between insta-charge oppressors and angels alike, and the dudes that throw meteors are equally annoying. I enjoy playing within that middle ground, where if I stand still for too long or get too swarmed I die. Not... get attacked by two shadow swarms and die, or get hit by an elite's single fireball.

I know exactly what I need to do from here until the end of the game, progression wise, and if I were to gain about 200 more all resist (currently rocking ~550 with 5000 armor) and a little more life I think I'd be out of one-shot territory and would have an easier time. So either I can farm a LOT for the expensive top-end gear that I need (unless I get good drops that I can sell on the AH, it's about 100k gold/hr -- so 5 million gold is 50 hours straight up). And, progression wise, I'm sitting about where I think the rest of the majority is so unless the gear is indeed top-end, it's not even selling on the AH in the first place.

Also the best farming for me atm is act 2 goblin farming with ~200 MF gear. Get some buddies in vent, everyone opens game, call it if you got it, repeat until eyes bleed. And it's still more enjoyable than act 1 farming.

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I've been sticking a lot to hardcore recently. It's more fun. I still haven't made it to inferno (lost a 54 to a double pack of illusionist teleporters in chapter 2...), but I find reaching inferno is more enjoyable than being in inferno. The economy is worlds better and the majority of public players are competent (especially post-normal).

WoW has staying power


While many of its fights are gear checks, in a raiding environment most bosses are also unique so many of them are as much about learning the fight as it is being at the proper gear level. This is not the case in D3, where all the bosses we learned how to deal with within 10 hours of gameplay. Some of them on inferno are particularly nasty due to scaling coeffecient (Belial fist one-shots~), but the mechanics are the same. Additionally, the best way to farm gear in D3 is in act 1/2, instead of continually beating the chain of bosses that got you to your current place. It'd be like continually doing Heroics to get into Kara. and once Kara was done, in order to beat SSC and TK, you went back to heroics. And then for BT/MJ -- more heroics. Hell, heroic. Combined with the low drop rate, the effort to reward ratio is too low to string me along.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:21 pm UTC

There is also the matter of relaxation. In D2, endgame had you farming the same areas but it was relaxed for most (if not all) of the time and the few times you died in D2 the price was practically nonexistant. In D3 pretty much anywhere you farm you'll need to be focused and ready to respond or you'll be dead and if you do die it gets costly fast; there is no relaxation.

In relation to WoW raiding, only the bosses are close to similar, which is really unfortunate since the bosses actually need to be skilled through(to a certain extent) whereas the elite packs are basically just class/gear/build checks.

philsov wrote:Additionally, the best way to farm gear in D3 is in act 1/2, instead of continually beating the chain of bosses that got you to your current place. It'd be like continually doing Heroics to get into Kara. and once Kara was done, in order to beat SSC and TK, you went back to heroics. And then for BT/MJ -- more heroics. Hell, heroic. Combined with the low drop rate, the effort to reward ratio is too low to string me along.


Fucking this. I am soooooo tired of act 1 and, as a DH, I can't live through elite snake packs in act 2 so full runs through there aren't as good because I'm getting less for my 5 stacks. I want to get to Diablo so I can at least start incorporating whimsyshire into my act 1 runs so I have something new to do but progression costs so damned much.

I spent about 1mil in gold costs in act 3 because I couldn't find 3 other players that weren't shit. Usually I could get at least 1 good player but they would leave after a few wipes when the others would get killed early or just run around doing nothing during the fights.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:04 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:There is also the matter of relaxation. In D2, endgame had you farming the same areas but it was relaxed for most (if not all) of the time and the few times you died in D2 the price was practically nonexistant. In D3 pretty much anywhere you farm you'll need to be focused and ready to respond or you'll be dead and if you do die it gets costly fast; there is no relaxation.

This is becuase, again, people think d3 Inferno = d2 Hell. It doesn't.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Negated » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:50 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:In D2, endgame had you farming the same areas but it was relaxed for most (if not all) of the time and the few times you died in D2 the price was practically nonexistant. .

Don't you lose like 1/4 of your gold and 20 hours worth of character experience? In D3 I pay like 3k gold per death, which isn't much.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:53 pm UTC

Negated wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:In D2, endgame had you farming the same areas but it was relaxed for most (if not all) of the time and the few times you died in D2 the price was practically nonexistant. .

Don't you lose like 1/4 of your gold and 20 hours worth of character experience? In D3 I pay like 3k gold per death, which isn't much.


If you were over level 92, you did lose a good bit of experience. It's something like 5% of your experience bar, which translates to days of playtime in the mid and upper 90's. The gold wasn't really an issue because it was so easy to find.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby ProZac » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:56 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:This is becuase, again, people think d3 Inferno = d2 Hell. It doesn't.

This is a terrible statement without qualifications. For effort/skill? Certainly not. For acquiring the best items? Actually, yes, they are. For being "end game"? Yep, still are. If I want to continue to gear my person, I have to play Inferno.

The way drops work in D3 is the problem for me. In roughly 150 hours of play, I've seen a few legendaries, but nothing good. I've had some decent rares, but rares drop with such frequency that seeing one drop isn't exciting. On top of that 95% of rares are useless, so that takes away from any excitement. The only time a drop is 'exciting' is after you pick it up and see that's it's an ilvl 62 or 63. Compare this to Torchlight, which I recently played, where Legendary drops were frequent and useful. Just seeing the orange text was enough to trigger excitement. Sure, since it's a single player game, drop rates are kinda ridiculous, but it's still more fun. Fun > Balance, especially when it comes to PvE.

I still enjoy the gameplay. I'll probably come back when an expansion or major update hits to see if it improves. But right now, I don't feel that I'm working towards anything. Even in D2, running end game, I was always at least making level progression. I was getting stronger even if I didn't have the lightning reflexes to grab the items. That was enough. I love games with absurdly high level caps for this reason.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:03 pm UTC

It's a perfectly reasonable statement because you could advance through D2 Hell without the same gear grind. My 90 something Necromancer had nothing terribly fancy, and could continually advance through Hell, earning xp and moving on. My lvl 60 WD cannot advance through Inferno until I grind the bejeezus out of gold/gear. The scale of difficulty to D2 Hell and D3 Inferno simply aren't equal. You can get through Hell in Diablo with truly minimal grind; indeed, some people have even pointed out that you can get to lvl 99 with 4 hrs effort in D2 if you're carried by a group. The difference between an ungeared lvl 99 D2 character and an ungeared lvl 60 D3 character is, in my opinion, night and day. Granted, it's been 10 years since I played D2, so, meh.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:41 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:This is a terrible statement without qualifications. For effort/skill? Certainly not. For acquiring the best items? Actually, yes, they are. For being "end game"? Yep, still are. If I want to continue to gear my person, I have to play Inferno.


To be fair, almost every item in the game can drop in Hell difficulty (albeit at very low % chance). Only ilvl 63s cannot and the only ilvl 63s that I'd dare say are "necessary" are possibly the weapons (even that's not really true since there are definitely high dps ilvl 62 weapons out there).

It is akin to say constantly farming hell Meph in D3. You couldn't get all the best items but you could get the vast majority of them from him.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby ProZac » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:20 pm UTC

I was under the impression that nothing above ilvl 60 dropped in Hell, so my mistake there. Still, I suppose the distinction I'm trying to make is: I agree they are not the same due to skill/difficulty, but my reasons for playing them are the same, character improvement. They just took out one aspect (xp).


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