Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

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Axman
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Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Axman » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:36 pm UTC

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/07/18 ... revealed/1

Wow, so like, take one of the last few great single-player games and pimp it out, that's, that's nice. Superb. Now you and, like, a million of your pals can save or damn the galaxy simultaneously. That sounds grand.

Oh, and take Obsidian off the roster, you know, the guys that made the game cool, different, and not a Star Wars-themed total-conversion of Baldur's Gate.

This is going to be mind-blowing.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby CogDissident » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:41 pm UTC

Bioware does turn based (NWN 1 and 2) really well. And tends to make good RPGs. But as far as a MMORPG, I think its going to be a "me too" game more than anything new. Probably just another game that relies on flavor and has little or no gameplay value.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Belial » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:25 pm UTC

I'm hoping it's basically Kotor III, but with a NWN style module creator/DM tools attached.

Basically, if we can get fan-run Star Wars Persistent Worlds out of this, I will be a happy man.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Gravitas Shortfall » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:26 pm UTC

*Sigh* So much for getting KOTOR III any time in the near future.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Axman » Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:38 pm UTC

http://www.thetechlounge.com/news/13079 ... g+Uhg+MMO/

I leveraged your opinion into a strategic, er, win-win, ah, of a paradigm. Synergistically.

That's corporate-polite for stole, right? Did I get that right?

Anyway, you're on fire, babe. We'll do lunch. (I only really know Dilbert and '80s business culture from the TV.) Just call me on my car phone.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby ScumBag » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:54 am UTC

CogDissident wrote:Bioware does turn based (NWN 1 and 2) really well. And tends to make good RPGs. But as far as a MMORPG, I think its going to be a "me too" game more than anything new. Probably just another game that relies on flavor and has little or no gameplay value.


Bioware did not have a hand in NWN 2. Nor KOTOR2.

Which was good, because (I.M.H.O) both games were sub-par compared to their predecessors. Now that Bioware is but a vassal to EA (can anyone name a single decent EA game?), I cannot think anything good could come out of this. There is already one MMO Star Wars game and from what I heard, it failed because EVERYONE wanted to be a Jedi (no sorry, a sith). Supposedly one of the most exclusive organisations in the galaxy and everywhere you go there's a Luke StarKilla or Obi-1-Khan-Obie.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Belial » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:35 am UTC

Axman wrote:http://www.thetechlounge.com/news/13079/Knights+of+the+Old+Republic+Going+Uhg+MMO/

I leveraged your opinion into a strategic, er, win-win, ah, of a paradigm. Synergistically.


Does that mean I get cut in?
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Thenzon » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:22 am UTC

ScumBag wrote:Bioware did not have a hand in NWN 2. Nor KOTOR2.

Which was good, because (I.M.H.O) both games were sub-par compared to their predecessors. Now that Bioware is but a vassal to EA (can anyone name a single decent EA game?), I cannot think anything good could come out of this. There is already one MMO Star Wars game and from what I heard, it failed because EVERYONE wanted to be a Jedi (no sorry, a sith). Supposedly one of the most exclusive organisations in the galaxy and everywhere you go there's a Luke StarKilla or Obi-1-Khan-Obie.


Bioware has never made a bad game! Obsidian, not so much...

Ive got SW: Galaxies, and believe it or not, nowadays there arent as many jedi as there used to be. Frankly, jedi suck compared to a couple of the other classes. But that's a conversation for a different thread.

I am so exited about KotOR III being an MMO, cos it means there will not be a shortage of new content.
Also, in this one i think everyone will be a jedi, but not because they choose to. The storyline will probably force everyone to be a jedi. Fortunately there will probably be lots of different kinds of jedi, in addition to the consular, sentinel and guardian of 1 and 2.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Axman » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:13 pm UTC

Thenzon wrote:Bioware has never made a bad game! Obsidian, not so much...


Huh?

Games that Bioware has made:

Shattered Steel (shit)
Baldur's Gate (OK)
MDK2 (shit)
Neverwinter Nights (booooring--and I don't care about user-generated content)
Knights of the Old Republic (OK)
Jade Empire (greatness)
Mass Effect (fuck you Bioware--OK)

Games that Obsidian has made:

KOTOR II (greatness even though rushed by publisher)
Neverwinter Nights 2 (OK. Vastly improved but still just OK.)
...And that's it.

Bioware: three OK titles, three shitty titles, and one good one. Obsidian has a good one and an OK one. Neither company is tearing up the charts, but at least Obsidian doesn't stick fucking Atari shooters into their role-playing games.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Sparv » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:00 pm UTC

Axman wrote:
Thenzon wrote:Jade Empire (greatness)


You're very forgiving here... Jade Empire is more "emptiness" than "greatnes" for me. Finished it twice ( 2*14h) in less than one Mass Effect (36h the first time).
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Axman » Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:02 pm UTC

Your quality scale is based on how long it takes to finish the game?

Post count: ominous.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby ScumBag » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:28 pm UTC

Axman wrote:Your quality scale is based on how long it takes to finish the game?


It should be counted at least and for a lot, a RPG that takes less then a few hours to complete shouldn't have the honour to be called a RPG, it ought to take absoulte DAYS to complete. The actual 'meat' of Mass Effect takes less then what? Seven hours to finish? The rest of it is filler and boring conversations, which is a shame 'cause there is a decent game under it all. Oh well, Dragon Age will be out in the not too distant future.

Here is a piece of advice for all RPG developers, no more side quests. Please! Every quest ought to be tied to the story and completed in as many ways possible with as many out-comes. Cut the crap, ditch the side quests.

Lastly, KOTOR > KOTOR II.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Yakk » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:37 pm UTC

No?

There are people who want to play the game, experience the end, without burning multiple days of time. These people have money.

There are also people who want to spend 7 days solid, 24/7, playing the game. These people have money.

By making a game where there is a "core" and "side" quests, the 24/7 players can spend forever on the same game, playing side quests, and have their long experience that they desire.

By making a game where you can do the "core" quest in less than 24 hours, the people who want to experience the plot and don't want to spend hours on the game to get the meat out of it, can buy the game and enjoy it.

In short: your demographic doesn't spend enough money per game for your demographic only to be catered to in a high-polish, long, high quality game. If your demographic was willing to spend 1000$ per game, then they would be more likely to cater to you. But that isn't very likely.

This also works into the quality of the various parts of the game. The "core" quest is content that both the "I want a long game" and "I want a short game" users will consume, while the "side" quests are mostly for the "long game" players. This means the developers often end up spending more $ per unit of "core" quest, and less per unit of "side" quest. (This is made worse by the fact that the "long game" players want 5 times as much content, spreading their dollars around)

On the other hand, the "long game" players do get all hypey about a game, and have time to spread the word to other people for free. Good marketing is valuable. So the "short game" players end up getting less than they paid for, as money is sunk into parts of the game they don't want to play in order to make the "long game" people froth at the mouth.

...

This is somewhat similar to the FF style "to make the game easier, walk in a circle, earn XP, and the scripted encounters won't be as challenging" model -- dynamic difficulty control! :-)
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Sparv » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:47 pm UTC

Axman wrote:Your quality scale is based on how long it takes to finish the game?


When I pay for a game, I want some content. i'm glad I bought Jade Empire second hand. And length is not only a part of the scale, but also an indication about the quality: I tend to rush bad game. What disappointed me was that I didn't rushed Jade Empire at all.

About the "boring" side of Mass Effect: that's the second time the graphics added something to a game for me (The Witcher being the first time). The "actors" are beautifully rendered, the voice acting is very good, the whole world is extremely interresting: no conversations were boring. ME is definetely a very good game, that's why I finished it 4 times.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Cyrion » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:41 am UTC

Well, I must admit I never played Bioware's KotOR, but I just finished Obsidian's KotOR... two times in a row. I didn't even take a break, and it took all my will (and the uninstall button) not to do it a third time.

Yes, KotOR 2 felt rushed at the end, but the story was still fantastic. It had me addicted, and that is no small feat. I would also like to add that there weren't so many side quests, well not as many as in Baldur's Gate II (funny, RPG sequels and me have a strange relationship...).

As for Jade Empire, I must admit I didn't play much (I don't own a Xbox), but what I experienced was on the level of greatness.

Anyway, I am extremely excited about a KotOR MMO. If it is done right, it can at last flush Star Wars Galaxy in the closest cosmic singularity, and we'll never hear of it again. Perhaps we'll even get a better feel of what a Jedi institution is like... Afterall, not every Jedi in the Universe can be THE most powerful.

Sure, I would had loved a KotOR III game, but it was even less likely to happen than a Fallout III game. :P
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Thenzon » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:38 am UTC

OK, i probably should've phrased it differently.
What i meant to say was i have never played a bad Bioware game.

but anyway...

I think itd be cool if there was some sort of dueling arena for high level players to duke it out. There could be Bioware-run and player-run tournaments or something. I'd totally go for that if it existed.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Aethernox » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:24 pm UTC

Spoilering quote for size.
Axman wrote:
Spoiler:
Huh?

Games that Bioware has made:

Shattered Steel (shit)
Baldur's Gate (OK)
MDK2 (shit)
Neverwinter Nights (booooring--and I don't care about user-generated content)
Knights of the Old Republic (OK)
Jade Empire (greatness)
Mass Effect (fuck you Bioware--OK)

Games that Obsidian has made:

KOTOR II (greatness even though rushed by publisher)
Neverwinter Nights 2 (OK. Vastly improved but still just OK.)
...And that's it.

Bioware: three OK titles, three shitty titles, and one good one. Obsidian has a good one and an OK one. Neither company is tearing up the charts, but at least Obsidian doesn't stick fucking Atari shooters into their role-playing games.


We seem to be of vastly different opinions. Neither KOTORII nor NwN2 were as good as the original; NwN2 wasn't even close. I found that all of the Bioware games you listed as OK are, in fact, excellent, as is NwN. However, I've not played Jade Empire, Shattered Steel, or MDK2.

I look forward to playing it, actually. I'm assuming that they are going to bring back the PrC's, etc., from KOTORII. With a bit of twerking, I think it could work well, assuming that they do drop the aforementioned damn/save galaxy angle.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby ScumBag » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:59 pm UTC

If anyone wants a quick, short game that won't take too long to complete, they ought to invest in racing or arcade games. I know I sound like I'm asking for my cake and eat it, but dammit this is a multi-billion dollar/pound/yen industry, they could make it happen!

Look at games like GTA or even Metal Gear Solid, look at the time and attention given to the stuff that distracts you from the actual gameplay, the hours of cutscenes, amount of dialogue and so on. This isn't the stuff we've paid for and I don't think it would have hurt them to 'kill their luvvies' and invest in more actual gameplay. Exactly who is this stuff meant for?

Do game developers make games so they can cover both their consumer bases? I'm not sure about this assertion. I understand your argument, but I don't think people buy games like that and the developers know that. RPGs will always sell to people who want to invest a lot of time in a few games and FPS to twitch gamers and more causal gamers. I don't think there are many people who purchased and enjoyed Oblivion without attempting most missions at least once. Even if the core quests could be completed quickly, gamers with short attention spans would have given up before the final story boss. I think it has more to do with making a game longer but keeping the cost of developing them down at the same time, and with games like Mass Effect it is taking the absolute piss when you spend more time doing the chore-like missions rather then pushing the plot forward.

As for the FF, what you described is called 'grinding', people do it (as you rightly say) to make the game easier, but not to make it longer.

But then again, I'm just a consumer, I don't know jack about making games.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Belial » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:07 pm UTC

Look at games like GTA or even Metal Gear Solid, look at the time and attention given to the stuff that distracts you from the actual gameplay, the hours of cutscenes, amount of dialogue and so on. This isn't the stuff we've paid for and I don't think it would have hurt them to 'kill their luvvies' and invest in more actual gameplay. Exactly who is this stuff meant for?


Me. I like my games with some story.

Of course, GTA strikes a balance with its story elements versus gameplay elements. MGS doesn't. But then, Hideo Kajima pretty much hates his fans and wants them to suffer, at this point.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Felstaff » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:27 pm UTC

ScumBag wrote:Look at games like WING COMMANDER I-VI, look at the time and attention given to the stuff that distracts you from the FACT THERE IS NO actual gameplay, the hours of DULL cutscenes, amount of TURGID dialogue and so on. This isn't the stuff we've paid for and I FEEL THE URGE TO hurt them AND 'kill THEM FOR NOT investING in EVEN A SINGLE IOTA OF gameplay.


Thought a quick fix was in order.

And a ratio of cut-scenes to gameplay. I don't know about you, but GTA takes hundreds of hours to complete. I can probably time the length of the cut-scenes on one hand ...Somehow. Maybe if I adopted a standard period of time per finger.

Edit: SW:KOTORMMORPG? That's a mouthful. A mouthful of glee, that is!
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Yakk » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:46 pm UTC

ScumBag wrote:If anyone wants a quick, short game that won't take too long to complete, they ought to invest in racing or arcade games. I know I sound like I'm asking for my cake and eat it, but dammit this is a multi-billion dollar/pound/yen industry, they could make it happen!

Look at games like GTA or even Metal Gear Solid, look at the time and attention given to the stuff that distracts you from the actual gameplay, the hours of cutscenes, amount of dialogue and so on. This isn't the stuff we've paid for and I don't think it would have hurt them to 'kill their luvvies' and invest in more actual gameplay. Exactly who is this stuff meant for?


The people buying the games? You can make a game with far less graphics and cutscenes. And they don't sell as well.

RPGs will always sell to people who want to invest a lot of time in a few games and FPS to twitch gamers and more causal gamers.

Long RPGs sell to people with lots of time. RPGs that aren't extremely long in their core quest ... can sell to a broader audience.
I think it has more to do with making a game longer but keeping the cost of developing them down at the same time, and with games like Mass Effect it is taking the absolute piss when you spend more time doing the chore-like missions rather then pushing the plot forward.

Yes. The side missions are easy to code, and they make the game longer. They are intended because some members of the audience demand "I want to spend more time on my game", so they create low-quality content for those members to consume.
As for the FF, what you described is called 'grinding', people do it (as you rightly say) to make the game easier, but not to make it longer.

And, as a side effect, it makes the game longer. It is easy content to develop that burns player time, and makes the players who care about long games happier.

Me? I want a difficulty meter that I can control explicitly. Fallout had it -- you could change the difficulty of the game at any point. So you could keep it high, and if you where being slaughtered because you skipped too many side quests and didn't grind out the XP, instead of doing a grind you could just notch it down.

I understand that you'd love to have lots of high-quality content for very little money, with a super long experience. But high quality content costs a lot to develop. Others want high quality content, but care less about the duration of the experience.

So they deliver a smaller amount of high-quality content, and lots of fluff crap so you get what you want in the length of the game. So long as there is a large demographic that complains "I spend 50$ on the game, and it only took me 36 hours to complete!", they will throw utter crap at players to make the game take longer (1.50$ per hour? That is barely more expensive than watching TV (ads sell for about 1$ per person-hour last I checked, which translates pretty directly into watcher-suckage in my experience)).
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Nyarlathotep » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:13 am UTC

I thought Planescape: Torment was Bioware? At the very least isn't Black Isle associated with Bioware?
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Aethernox » Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:33 am UTC

Nyarlathotep wrote:I thought Planescape: Torment was Bioware? At the very least isn't Black Isle associated with Bioware?


Actually, I was under the impression that Black Isle was more closely associated with Obsidian, with Obsidian having several ex-Black Isle employees. Torment was Black Isle.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:27 pm UTC

Black Isle more or less became Obsidian, what with a lot of old employees now working there.

Black Isle made Fallout 1&2, Planescape, the entire Icewind Dale series, and Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II. They published (even after being purchased by Interplay) Baldur's Gate, Tales of the Sword Coast, BG II: Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal which were developed by .. Bioware.

So, yeah, there's a lot of history between the two companies.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:24 pm UTC

ScumBag wrote:Now that Bioware is but a vassal to EA (can anyone name a single decent EA game?),

* Strike series
Burnout series (Revenge and newer)
The Haunting
Sim*
Spore
Rock Band
Mass Effect
I could keep going.

Hate the company and its business policies all you want, but it's an ENORMOUS company that owns and publishes games for many, many studios, of which plenty of quality games have come out of. Their aggregate Metacritic score in 2006 was second to Nintendo by 2.5%.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Rakysh » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:13 pm UTC

Just like to add battle for middle earth up there. Excellent EA game.

As for the mmo, I reckon that the kotor label is just for the time period. Like someone said, you can't have hundreds of thousands of Jedi running around. Possibly three factions- Republic, Sith and Mando.

*geeks out over thought of a Mando comando team assaulting a planet.*

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Sulla158 » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:16 am UTC

Isn't it a little early to be calling Spore a decent game? It looks amazing I'll agree, but come on, it hasn't even been released yet.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby poleboy » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:58 am UTC

ScumBag wrote:Look at games like GTA or even Metal Gear Solid, look at the time and attention given to the stuff that distracts you from the actual gameplay, the hours of cutscenes, amount of dialogue and so on. This isn't the stuff we've paid for and I don't think it would have hurt them to 'kill their luvvies' and invest in more actual gameplay. Exactly who is this stuff meant for?


You're assuming that games are one specific type of experience, and that people only want this. MGS is sort of a cross-over between movie and game, and some people enjoy this, if nothing else because they're trying to do something different with the media. They certainly don't have as many actual gameplay hours in them as some other games, but you can't really measure an experience this way.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Yakk » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:06 pm UTC

Sulla158 wrote:Isn't it a little early to be calling Spore a decent game? It looks amazing I'll agree, but come on, it hasn't even been released yet.

I've already had hours of high-quality enjoyment from Spore. :-)
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:25 pm UTC

Sulla158 wrote:Isn't it a little early to be calling Spore a decent game? It looks amazing I'll agree, but come on, it hasn't even been released yet.

Considering the amount of enjoyment people have had from the Creature Creator, no. Even ignoring that, okay, strike it from the list. There's still lots and lots of great games from EA. Like I said, rail on their business practices all you want, I won't defend them, but they've made plenty of good games.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby Angstrom » Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:46 pm UTC

Dear god why didn't I see this before. There goes what remained of my social life.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG

Postby yellie » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:29 pm UTC

I really don't understand how they can make KOTOR3 an MMO. What about all the character subplots, the relationships and the influence stuff that made the previous games so great? Not to mention they never finished Revan's story. If it's an MMO then I suspect that won't be as important as, say, getting items and levelling up.

But hey, as long as you can pwn with a lightsaber, who cares right?! Ugh.


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