The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

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The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Smiling Hobo » Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:42 pm UTC

So, yeah, the GBA I ordered off Amazon finally arrived, and decided it was time for a nostalgic playthrough of Pokémon: Red Version. And I'm happy to say that the game is just as much fun now as it was years ago. However, I have noticed a few things about the game that I didn't notice when I was younger...such as...

1. The Ethics of Pokémon Cock-Fights

Pokémon are equivalent to our world's animals...so, is it really morally ethical to pit these little creatures against each other in fights until they pass out? Why the fuck isn't Ash Kethcum or whatever-the-hell-his-name-is in a jail cell with Michael Vick? And where are all of those moaning "Pokémon Rights Activists" that go on hunger strikes until Pokémon cock-fights are abolished? It seems like everybody is too busy talking about Pokémon to care about the abuse these creatures have to endure...which leads me to my next point...

2. Nobody needs a job when they can sit on their ass at home with their Pokémon!

So, everybody in this game seems to have an unhealthy obsession with Pokémon. The only two stores in every town are a Pokémon Hospital and a Pokémon convenience store. There are "Pokémon Trainers" (IE little kids in short-shorts) hiding behind bushes waiting to ambush you at every turn. God forbid they actually built a hospital for human injuries, or a convenience store for humans so we could, yah know, buy something to fucking eat.

But of course, building a human hospital would be pointless, since nobody in Pokémon-World works, unless it's at a Pokémon-Center or a Pokémon-Store or a Pokémon-Gym or a Pokémon... Hell, even the gangsters in this world just want to exploit...you guessed it, Pokémon. Everyone else, though, is doing fine--they just sit at home and wait for you to walk in to talk to them about Pokémon...which reminds me...

3. Who the fuck cares about breaking and entering in Pokemon-World?

So, yeah...if somebody just walked in my front door and started talking with me, I'd kick them in the balls and call the police. But apparently nobody really gives a shit about that in this land of fairies and happiness--they're too busy jerking off to their Pokemon collections. Seriously, you can just walk into some random person's house in this game, walk up to them, and start having a nice little conversation. Nevermind that you're a total stranger and may well be a knife-wielding thug.

And even if I were a knife-wielding thug and proceeded to dismember an entire family and tack their vital organs to the walls, it's not like anything would happen, since there aren't any police in said town anyway. Hell, why don't I burn the entire village? Nobody works at the fire station because they turned it into a Pokemart Deluxe last year!

4. Bikes cost 1,000,000 yen.

WTF?

5. Ten-year old kids can travel the world alone in Pokémon-World!

Nevermind that my player character is still a pre-pubescent boy who lives with his Mommy and has a SNES in his room--he's ready to pack up and start traversing the world on his own now. Nevermind the fact that there are vicious creatures waiting to maul him in every patch of grass he enters, or that there may well be rapists, kidnappers, con-artists, and murders waiting to exploit him--he'll work it out himself.

I bet his mom is a fucking whore who just wanted to get her illegitimate child out of her life so she could bang that man-slut Pepipollo without having to worry about how loud her moans are.

---

Yeah, so, that's it. A fun game, but just a few things I found hard to swallow. ;-)

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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Xaddak » Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:53 pm UTC

JRPG. That explains it all. Logic has no place here.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Durandal » Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:53 pm UTC

Wasn't there some kind of theory floating around the internet not too long ago over how the whole pokemon story thing was really a vivid dream experienced by Ash after bailing on his bike or something?

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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Cheese » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:09 pm UTC

...I'm with Xaddak - pretty much every JRPG is like that. And seriously, do you think the game would become more fun if you had to send your character to the toilet every few hours?

EDIT: And Durandal, I believe that focused on the TV show... I think we had an N&A thread about it a few months ago, actually.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Yuri2356 » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:46 pm UTC

Smiling Hobo wrote:4. Bikes cost 1,000,000 yen.

WTF?

Well, as you've observed the pokemon-obsessed culture has driven all unrelated industries to nigh-extinction. In this grim and distant future, the infrastructure of the old world is being gnawed at by decay. Such vibrant echoes of the distant past as the common bycicle have become priceless artifacts of great power. Empires rise and fall over control of the last remaining bike-stockpiles as the streets drown in the blood of the innocent.

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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:59 pm UTC

As someone pointed out (bash? TVTropes? Not sure) how is it that the world in Pokemon is ruled by humans? They're not the smartest species, the strongest species, or much else. There are Pokemon that control time, and Homo Sapiens still tells everyone what to do.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Smiling Hobo » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:00 pm UTC

Yuri2356 wrote:
Smiling Hobo wrote:4. Bikes cost 1,000,000 yen.

WTF?

Well, as you've observed the pokemon-obsessed culture has driven all unrelated industries to nigh-extinction. In this grim and distant future, the infrastructure of the old world is being gnawed at by decay. Such vibrant echoes of the distant past as the common bycicle have become priceless artifacts of great power. Empires rise and fall over control of the last remaining bike-stockpiles as the streets drown in the blood of the innocent.
That literally made me lol.

And @ sir_elder...never thought of that, but it's true. Mew-Two is sentient and has psychic powers, and a pretty nasty attitude if what I remeber of the first movie is correct, yet the humans living in the town right across the river from his cave are perfectly fine. What's with that?

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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jorpho » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:18 pm UTC

The Grand List of Console RPG Cliches still makes for great reading.

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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jebobek » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:01 am UTC

In earthbound it would actually make sense when you're entering someones house, or trying to. You walk up to a door and half of them you'd knock, and someone would yell "What do you want? Go away!" Or something like that.

Rant:
Spoiler:
Ever wish there was a Grand-Theft-Auto game of Pokemon, where you are a member of Team Rocket that can only acquire all 150 of them by stealing them from other trainers? Also the way you get money is by selling some off to Rocket headquarters?

I bring this up because Nintendo has their prissy little G-rated fantasy land known as Pokemon where nothing mean or nasty ever happens, and it would break childrens' hearts if a pokemon was actually stolen. (This never happens, by the way. Even though the law of averages states that team rocket will eventually steal a Pokeball, you'll NEVER see them pull it off completely in a game or on the show. Somehow Team Rocket is a huge corporation but no one ever loses a single pokemon. God, what are we teaching kids these days?)

Dammit, i want my bulbasaur to use stun spore on officer Jenny and clear out a whole town of pokemon.

Also, no sign of a 3D-Rendered pokemon world after all these years is totally bogus.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby lorenith » Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:24 am UTC

The pokemon seem to want to fight though, and also want to be captured by a strong trainer that can make them stronger.

I guess that is pretty backwards.

But the game and cartoon are for kids, I mean the cartoon itself focuses very strongly on bonds of friendship and stuff like that, and you may have noticed trainers that are condemned if they are ebil.

But yeah, it's better not to try to make sense of a game, and world that was put together for children. It makes sense contained within it's own little world and the sort of culture that has been built, but not in ours.

Also, all the other stuff pointed out like a lack of certain buildings is easily explained by the fact that they aren't necessary parts of the game, so they aren't going to show up.

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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Alias » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:06 am UTC

there is a human store! in lavender town or wherever!

and a power station :p

and museums

and that burnt out place on the fire island
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Cynical Idealist » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:42 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:There are Pokemon that control time

Damnit, crazy thought: What if Hawking was right about there being a chronology protection agency, at least in the Pokémon games?

(this is why I shouldn't be posting on too little sleep and too much caffeine. Also, the above inspired an even-crazier train of thought that culminated with the Doctor getting bitchslapped by Dialga for trying to travel through time. That...is probably evidence that I need more sleep.

Oh, and I think it was TVTropes.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jebobek » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:23 pm UTC

How do legendary pokemon propigate? Thats what really bothers me about legendary pokemon.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Smiling Hobo » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:14 pm UTC

Alias wrote:there is a human store! in lavender town or wherever!

and a power station :p

and museums

and that burnt out place on the fire island
Yeah, after reaching the third city, I also found a guy who was clearing land for a building or something with his "Machop" (why build sutff yourself when you can use your Poke-Slave for all the grunt work?), so I guess some people still have jobs in Poke-World, though obviously not enough for a realistic economy to function.

And yeah, I know it's just a game and doesn't need to make sense, but I think it's just kind of funny how illogical these games are regardless.

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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jebobek » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:51 pm UTC

Its just too fun to pick on, right?

You know, at least in Oblivion people would wake up and go farming and crap! They had JOBS. Everyone was not just standing in one place and moving one square meter every couple of seconds or so. When the hell do you people sleep?

I hated the fact that if you won a pokemon match, as in, wipe out all of their pokemon, they stand there and go "oh, i lost, heres some yen." Then they would talk about how they love shorts or how pretty their snorlax is. But if you lose, do you get the same treatment? Hell no. They KNOCK YOU UNCONSCIOUS, drag you to the nearest pokecenter, and remember to take half of your money away before you wake up. What a bunch of asses!

Remind me next time when I beat my friend 1on1 in basketball to punch him in the face, drag him in to the Emergency Room, and take a 20 out of his pocket.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby lorenith » Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:07 pm UTC

I think they changed that in later pokemon games.

If you lose now there's a short little blurb of running to the pokecenter desperately trying to keep your pokemon safe from harm.

I think the losing half of your moneys isn't too surprising since when you win, you get money, it only makes sense to lose it if you lose, as if you had payed off the winner.

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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jebobek » Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:17 pm UTC

Right, but imagine if the whole win/lose economy was factored into the cartoon show? Then some crazy crap would go down. Ash would be ridin spinnas.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby guyy » Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:51 pm UTC

Smiling Hobo wrote:4. Bikes cost 1,000,000 yen.

WTF?


1 yen is worth less than 1 U.S. cent, so this is really "only" about $10,000. But still.

Jebobek wrote:I hated the fact that if you won a pokemon match, as in, wipe out all of their pokemon, they stand there and go "oh, i lost, heres some yen." Then they would talk about how they love shorts or how pretty their snorlax is. But if you lose, do you get the same treatment? Hell no. They KNOCK YOU UNCONSCIOUS, drag you to the nearest pokecenter, and remember to take half of your money away before you wake up. What a bunch of asses!


I always thought you passed out from the horrifying embarrassment of losing the match, but that doesn't really make much more sense.

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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Maseiken » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:19 am UTC

I always thought that they were fine, since they never move, they never have random encounters. But you, trying to make you way around without pokemon in the wilds can only just barely manage to drag you way to the Pokecentre... And then they take half your money, I assumed that was how their medicare worked, they wait until you need that medical attention so bad that you're willing to forfeit half your cash for it, it works on so many levels...
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:08 am UTC

The more I think about this, the more I realize that nothing in the Pokemon games makes any sense whatsoever, and trying to build any kind of logical framework to fit it into is probably futile. I'm trying to deal with this revelation at the moment.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jebobek » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:57 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:The more I think about this, the more I realize that nothing in the Pokemon games makes any sense whatsoever, and trying to build any kind of logical framework to fit it into is probably futile. I'm trying to deal with this revelation at the moment.
I know right? You could not even write a science fiction story out of pokemon. No matter how you play it the damn numbers don't add up O.o I mean, if a pokemon faints, you can't catch them, but if they're asleep, oh YEA, THATS when you capture them! Cause you know, theres a huge difference there. Also, whenever they use the term "evolve" incorrectly (always) Darwin does a backflip in his grave.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:03 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:The more I think about this, the more I realize that nothing in any JRPG and most nonJRPGs make any sense whatsoever, and trying to build any kind of logical framework to fit it into is probably futile. I'm trying to deal with this revelation at the moment.


Oh hai i fix'd it for you!

Because really, that's what it comes down to. Any RPG with scaling regions (That is, why would all the badass predators live in one area.. wouldn't some of the not-so-badass ones move to the lower level areas where they could dominate the food chain?) makes no sense. Any RPG with guards that are always stronger than you makes no sense as you no longer serve a purpose. Any RPG with godlike NPCs rarely make any sense, as the godlike NPCs should logically get off their asses and handle whatever the problem is themselves.

And lets not even get started on RPGs where the ancients apparently had antimatter grenade phase cannons mounted on grizzly bear ninja-wizards that are on fire yet couldn't defeat the Ultimate Evil (merely seal it away), until your dumb ass comes along with a goddamn pointy metal stick that glows and yet you're somehow able to do it. Not to mention that they didn't fucking disintegrate the key to the seal, merely broke it into pieces or some nonsense. I mean, hell.. if it's indestructible, shoot it into the goddamn sun! Problem solved forever, or until the sun goes Nova.

And then there's the RPGs where technology (and by that I even mean magic) has stagnated completely, and no one's thought to, I dunno, enslave a fire elemental to power a steam locomotive or whatever, so they've been living in the non-air conditioned food-spoilin'-like-crazy disease-going-everywhere women-dying-in-childbirth middle ages. Because all that stuff is so awesome.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Xaddak » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:35 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Sir_Elderberry wrote:The more I think about this, the more I realize that nothing in any JRPG and most nonJRPGs make any sense whatsoever, and trying to build any kind of logical framework to fit it into is probably futile. I'm trying to deal with this revelation at the moment.


Oh hai i fix'd it for you!

Because really, that's what it comes down to. Any RPG with scaling regions (That is, why would all the badass predators live in one area.. wouldn't some of the not-so-badass ones move to the lower level areas where they could dominate the food chain?) makes no sense. Any RPG with guards that are always stronger than you makes no sense as you no longer serve a purpose. Any RPG with godlike NPCs rarely make any sense, as the godlike NPCs should logically get off their asses and handle whatever the problem is themselves.

And lets not even get started on RPGs where the ancients apparently had antimatter grenade phase cannons mounted on grizzly bear ninja-wizards that are on fire yet couldn't defeat the Ultimate Evil (merely seal it away), until your dumb ass comes along with a goddamn pointy metal stick that glows and yet you're somehow able to do it. Not to mention that they didn't fucking disintegrate the key to the seal, merely broke it into pieces or some nonsense. I mean, hell.. if it's indestructible, shoot it into the goddamn sun! Problem solved forever, or until the sun goes Nova.

And then there's the RPGs where technology (and by that I even mean magic) has stagnated completely, and no one's thought to, I dunno, enslave a fire elemental to power a steam locomotive or whatever, so they've been living in the non-air conditioned food-spoilin'-like-crazy disease-going-everywhere women-dying-in-childbirth middle ages. Because all that stuff is so awesome.


See, this is why I like sci-fi games better.

Except for Dwarf Fortress. Because then losing IS fun.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jorpho » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:12 am UTC

May I share with you my thesis on the eerie realism of a badly-written JRPG?

Consider: You beat up some big foozle and eagerly charge forward towards the next challenge. But then after a few hours of playing, you find out that you're completely stuck. You have some vague hints about where you're supposed to go next, and there are a couple of interesting little doodads on the map that look like they ought to do something but don't seem to respond no matter what you do. Maybe you spend some time trying to level up, only to eventually find that you'd have to go on for ages to gain enough experience to go up another level, or to get enough gold to afford the ridicuously-expensive sword available in the village that you're probably not supposed to get until later in the game anyway. Maybe there are some tantalizing areas that you might like to explore, but the monsters there are too ridiculously overpowered for you to possibly survive encountering them without running away after the first round.

And so you keep wandering around, and talking to the same NPCs you've talked to dozens of times before, all saying the same tired lines, and you think that you might as well stop playing, because even though you've heard that the rest of the game is really really fun, you're just not getting anywhere and it feels like a waste of time.

But then, one day, something happens! Maybe you happen to talk to the right NPC after accidently equipping the wrong piece of armour. Maybe you try to talk to a tree and find out that it suddenly talks back. Maybe you press up against a wall you never examined before. Or maybe, instead of running away, you just let yourself get killed by the big monster you couldn't possibly defeat. And suddenly things start happening! New possibilities open up! The ambiguous symbols you noticed before suddenly become clear! The path to the next goal suddenly appears before you, and you find new joy in this game that you were just about to give up on.

...Well, maybe real life doesn't really work quite like that, but it would be nice if it did.

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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jebobek » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:41 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Because really, that's what it comes down to. Any RPG with scaling regions (That is, why would all the badass predators live in one area.. wouldn't some of the not-so-badass ones move to the lower level areas where they could dominate the food chain?) makes no sense.
Right, RPG's with scaling regions are implemented for the "fun" aspect, where you feel like you're progressing. The alternative is something like NPC-scaling Oblivion where a will-o-wisp or a bear will two-shot you still when you're level 30 (unless you know how to max your stats/use enchants all the time, but thats not really playing the game as-is anymore). As it turns out, most people hate that system.

Actually I don't mind redicu-hard NPC predators in my startup zone as long as there's alot of fun in avoiding them. Early final fantasy/dragon quest games had this, where if you walk 5 spaces off the normal path you get 1-shotted by a giant. Thats fine as long as I saved the damn game beforehand. In WoW theres, well, gankers that you can slip by as a rogue. In some places you get an elite mob walking around.

Pokemon for the most part is opposite-day when it comes to darwinism. Ok I know they're mice but I should not see a goddamn Ratata everywhere. EVERYWHERE. When I played Pearl its was nothing but the freggin Bidoofs. At that point there are 450+ pokemon and 50% of the encounters are bidoofs. Thanks, assholes.

And so you keep wandering around, and talking to the same NPCs you've talked to dozens of times before, all saying the same tired lines, and you think that you might as well stop playing, because even though you've heard that the rest of the game is really really fun, you're just not getting anywhere and it feels like a waste of time.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:44 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:Because really, that's what it comes down to. Any RPG with scaling regions (That is, why would all the badass predators live in one area.. wouldn't some of the not-so-badass ones move to the lower level areas where they could dominate the food chain?) makes no sense.
Right, RPG's with scaling regions are implemented for the "fun" aspect, where you feel like you're progressing. The alternative is something like NPC-scaling Oblivion where a will-o-wisp or a bear will two-shot you still when you're level 30 (unless you know how to max your stats/use enchants all the time, but thats not really playing the game as-is anymore). As it turns out, most people hate that system.

Actually I don't mind redicu-hard NPC predators in my startup zone as long as there's alot of fun in avoiding them. Early final fantasy/dragon quest games had this, where if you walk 5 spaces off the normal path you get 1-shotted by a giant. Thats fine as long as I saved the damn game beforehand. In WoW theres, well, gankers that you can slip by as a rogue. In some places you get an elite mob walking around.

Pokemon for the most part is opposite-day when it comes to darwinism. Ok I know they're mice but I should not see a goddamn Ratata everywhere. EVERYWHERE. When I played Pearl its was nothing but the freggin Bidoofs. At that point there are 450+ pokemon and 50% of the encounters are bidoofs. Thanks, assholes.


I guess my point is.. I can accept that the Necro Hills have gobs of skeletons and zombies on them as they are imbued with the energy of the deadworlds, causing those who die there to rise again and go forth with a hatred of life, yet unable to travel very far from the Necro Hills and the source of the dark energy that powers them.... I can accept ancient dragons seeking far away caves as their home, to slumber the centuries away on their giant horde of ancient treasure... I cannot accept that the Hill Giants around the town of Waypointia (where you hang between levels 10-15, more than likely) who have enslaved the Hill Gobbos wouldn't overrun and enslave the Forest Gobbos around the town of Startia (where you hang between levels 1-10) because, frankly, there's no natural barrier between the two, unless you count the centipedes between the two (which are tough but beatable for a level 8 party, but easy to escape in case your level 3 party wanders too far south)

And yet, that kind of crap happens all the time.

As far as Bidoofs being everywhere... they look like poofy groundhogs to me. Makes sense that a low-end herbivore would be more or less everywhere.
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby willwithskills » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:09 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:Ever wish there was a Grand-Theft-Auto game of Pokemon, where you are a member of Team Rocket that can only acquire all 150 of them by stealing them from other trainers? Also the way you get money is by selling some off to Rocket headquarters?

I bring this up because Nintendo has their prissy little G-rated fantasy land known as Pokemon where nothing mean or nasty ever happens, and it would break childrens' hearts if a pokemon was actually stolen. (This never happens, by the way. Even though the law of averages states that team rocket will eventually steal a Pokeball, you'll NEVER see them pull it off completely in a game or on the show. Somehow Team Rocket is a huge corporation but no one ever loses a single pokemon. God, what are we teaching kids these days?)

Dammit, i want my bulbasaur to use stun spore on officer Jenny and clear out a whole town of pokemon.


Do you remember Pokemon Colosseum for the GameCube? That is kind of like what you describe, because you have to steal Pokemon from other trainers mid-battle because the world you're in is completely devoid of Pokemon, besides the ones already owned. You're stealing them from bad guys, though. When I played when I was younger, I thought it was a pretty screwed up plotline for a Pokemon game.
So it goes.

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Jebobek
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jebobek » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:24 pm UTC

I never hit up Pokemon colosseum because it didn't have what I really wanted. I played the one for N64 and I'm like "man, why don't they make a damn world already? What are they doing with all their money?"

I could understand 50% of them being low-end grassmunchers, actually it would be more like 70% i guess, but again, Nintendo loves them their bidoofs. I almost flipped out when I first saw the bidoof talk to me in Explorers of Time. Speaking of which, I hate how much graphical pixel attention they give popular pokemon like Pikachu, and for my Turtwig (who is absolutely the most badass ballin' pokemon ever, and I don't care what anyone else says) he's a giant head on a poor excuse for a body. I'll find some sprite comparisons later when I'm not at a place where I'm supposed to be working.
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Narsil
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Narsil » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:47 am UTC

Is there any sort of governmental structure in the poke-verse? The Elite Four? And if I can beat them, why can't I lead a coup d'ete with my Pokemon? Furthermore, what is consumed as sustenance in a world where every animal, vegetable, and mineral is an adorable creature with a face that can probably poke-rape you if you give them the chance. Miltanks would seem to function as cows, but god damn if you can find someone to kill it and eat it. That thing's adorable.
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Oh... that.

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lorenith
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby lorenith » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:35 am UTC

Well, farfetch'd are endangered cause people kept wanting to eat them, so I imagine other pokemon are eaten too.

That might seem a little odd being as they seem to be companions first, but a lot of the animals we eat may be considered companions by other people. (Dogs, cats, cows, rabbits, horses, etc...)

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Gelsamel
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Gelsamel » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:43 am UTC

Smiling Hobo wrote:4. Bikes cost 1,000,000 yen.

WTF?


Your only valid criticism.
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
- > No
"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

Xaddak
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Xaddak » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:02 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
Smiling Hobo wrote:4. Bikes cost 1,000,000 yen.

WTF?


Your only valid criticism.


Explain? I thought all of his points were pretty valid, myself. What are your reasons for thinking they are invalid?
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EmptySet
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby EmptySet » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:59 am UTC

I find the whole thing about having animals beat each other into submission particularly odd, given that Pokegames are typically awash with sickly-sweet moralising about the power of friendship and determination or some such. It's even worse when you consider that many Pokemon are actually sapient - and some are quite capable of holding up a conversation with humans. They should really make a game where you have to lead the Pokemon in rising against their callous human oppressors, who enjoy nothing more than pitting innocent Pokemon against each other in not-quite-mortal combat, and even breeding Pokemon who know nothing but a life of servitude and violence to please their bloodthirsty masters.


Those who have played Galactic Civilisations 2 may recall the random event which asked how your government should deal with the recent craze of capturing animals in little balls and forcing them to fight each other, which I personally found hilarious.

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Gelsamel
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Gelsamel » Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:14 am UTC

Xaddak wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:
Smiling Hobo wrote:4. Bikes cost 1,000,000 yen.

WTF?


Your only valid criticism.


Explain? I thought all of his points were pretty valid, myself. What are your reasons for thinking they are invalid?


The other points can be explained by "It's a magically pokemon world".

A bike costing 1,000,000 is logically inconsistent with the prices of stuff in the rest of the game. Since it's inconsistent with the world itself, you can't really chalk it up to "Fantasy Land".
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
- > No
"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

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Jorpho
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jorpho » Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:24 am UTC

'Tis a mite surprising no one's even touched the idea that pokemon can be stored and transferred via computer.

(I never liked the "box" thing. It seemed like a way to force people to buy Pokemon Stadium just to keep things organized.)

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lorenith
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby lorenith » Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:31 am UTC

Well if you don't like the box storage, you must question cramming them into the alternate dimension that is a pokeball too right?

I don't think this thread is entirely fair, because most of the "logical shortcomings" it points out are present in many many games. I can understand the ethical confusion, but the rest seems a little silly.

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Maseiken
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Maseiken » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:24 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
Xaddak wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:
Smiling Hobo wrote:4. Bikes cost 1,000,000 yen.

WTF?


Your only valid criticism.


Explain? I thought all of his points were pretty valid, myself. What are your reasons for thinking they are invalid?


The other points can be explained by "It's a magically pokemon world".

A bike costing 1,000,000 is logically inconsistent with the prices of stuff in the rest of the game. Since it's inconsistent with the world itself, you can't really chalk it up to "Fantasy Land".

Well, there's vitually no reason for bikes to exist, since it's pretty easy to get a Rapidash or a Pidgey to carry you. People can FLY on these pokémon, they have no need for bikes.
So it's doubtful that there's any Bike industry, so those bikes are probably handmade...


And that still doesn't come close to explaining it...
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Joeldi
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Joeldi » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:33 am UTC

Jebobek wrote:I never hit up Pokemon colosseum because it didn't have what I really wanted. I played the one for N64 and I'm like "man, why don't they make a damn world already? What are they doing with all their money?"


I feel exactly the same way. The last Pokemon game I considered buying (and did) was Crystal, but god I would more than likely buy that.
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

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Jorpho
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jorpho » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:03 pm UTC

lorenith wrote:Well if you don't like the box storage, you must question cramming them into the alternate dimension that is a pokeball too right?
I didn't mean it was inhumane; I just thought it was slow and cumbersome to take pokemon in and out of the PC over and over again in an attempt to organize them.

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Jebobek
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Re: The Logical and Ethical Shortcomings of the Pokémon Games...

Postby Jebobek » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:23 pm UTC

I forget what reason they had for pokemon being able to fit into a pokeball. If pokemon turn into the size of what a DNA strand represents, then by a scale comparison, being in a Pokeball is like walking into the Disney Epcot globe, which would be empty inside. This is assuming that the pokemon DNA is placed in some sort of fluid medium to preserve the stability of the DNA double-helix, so that fluid also takes up space.

I like to assume that when the pokemon starts turning into the red glowey material before they fly into the ball, they are actually being incinerated and transfixed into a peice of DNA, attached with programming to remember how their health bar and skill numbers look. When the ball is opened the single DNA strand codes for cells that split apart and differentiate due to the natural enzyme gradients. The whole developmental change occurs in a rapid pace to trick the kids into thinking their squirtle is just popping out of the pokeball.

In reality, both the incineration and re-development is a painful and agonizing process which is just...just great.
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