Muzzle Flash

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
GCM
Posts: 528
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:28 pm UTC
Location: Metropolis City, Planet Kerwan, Solana Galaxy
Contact:

Muzzle Flash

Postby GCM » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:02 pm UTC

Maybe this is a little more appropriate in general. I don't know.

Anyway, in VGs and movies, the gun always seems to have a flash at the barrel. Not universally true, but more often than not you'll see this. However, when I've watched videos of guns (e.g., Mythbusters, war videos, demonstrations), they're not there.

Is this just because the video cannot capture the flash like human eyes do? Or is it because there actually isn't one? I've never actually seen a gun fired, so I don't know. And if it's the second, where did this popular event come from?
All warfare is based on heavily-armed robotic commandos.
~Sun Tzu

Notes: My last avatar was "Vote Robot Nixon", so I'm gonna keep a list here. :D

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26518
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:11 pm UTC

In movies, they shoot a blank that is designed to have a larger flash than real bullets, and in post-production they enhance it quite a bit more... because, you know, a guy firing an AK-47 and it just making barely visible tiny flashes of light just isn't exciting enough. You gotta make it look like it's a goddamn flamethrower spewing molten lead death at everything in front of it.

Video games often just copy the movies because they don't know better and it makes a nice visual reminder that yes, you did just push the fire button so the guy should be dying soon.

And.. yeah, it came from the movies not being exciting enough.

Here, Watch This. You'll note the submachine guns have barely any flash (this is not only because there really isn't much flash, but a lot of automatic weaponry harnesses the expanding gases to help power the gun - that is, the last bullet that got fired is what loads the next bullet in place.

The one with the biggest flash was the little sawed-off number.

In further weaponry ignorance, the Machine Girl movie. Fastforward to the roughly 45 second mark (I say that just so it's not so jarring to fast-foward to a 1.5 second blip). Point being, ignoring any sort of kick the weapon might have, the only reason to design a gun with multiple barrels like that is so that the barrels get a chance to cool down, and you provide that by having the entire barrel apparatus spin. The barrels spin. Spin! They don't remain stationary while the ammo feeding device somehow feeds each barrel in turn individually. The thing spins! It's essentially one gun that you just switch the barrels on after each shot! Nevermind the incredible hit you'd take to your accuracy, but designing a mechanism to feed each individual barrel would result in a much larger gun, probably with each barrel needing it's own ammo feed as that's the only way I can think of off hand to do it, unless the entire mechanism runs off one belt that lines up each shot out of order - that is, bullet one is lined up with barrel one for the first shot, then bullet two is lined up, and so on... but doing it that way would require you to basically have an ammo belt, which that weapon lacks. Not that it wouldn't need one even if the barrels spun, but I could at least assume a drum feed in the back... unless that's what the round thing on the side is supposed to be.

.... I'm overthinking it.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
OmegaLord
LXIX
Posts: 281
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:33 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby OmegaLord » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:44 pm UTC

ST, how do you know everything about everything? Every question I have ever seen (in xkcd-land) you have weighed in with the accepted answer. Are it a fact an do you know it because of your learnings or are you just using wikipedia behind our backs?
So what do you guys know about *glances down at sheet* the kingdoms of orgasms
but I just don't see why someone would tape themselves together.
Bear Police wrote:I got Ready to Die today. Took me too long. Great record.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26518
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:45 pm UTC

I use Wikipedia and it's linked sources along with Google to verify what I already know to be true. (I also stay the hell out of threads I know nothing about - note my activity in Coding and Mathematics.) So.. yes, to both questions.

Also, I'm probably wrong in about half of the barrel spinning rant, or at least on the details as to the reasoning..mostly because I'm not that familiar with gattling-style weaponry beyond the reason they spin (to keep the barrels from warping due to heat). I'm also not sure how much of the muzzle flash is done with blanks anymore, what with CGI costing barely nothing these days, relatively speaking.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

Xaddak
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Xaddak » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:27 pm UTC

OmegaLord wrote:ST, how do you know everything about everything?


Something about that made me laugh. I don't know what it is, but it is cracking me up.
Are you on this forum? Do you play EVE? Then join the xkcd channel! In your chat window, click on the speech bubble in the upper right corner. In the window that opens, type in xkcd and hit join.

-X

User avatar
Mr. Mack
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:26 am UTC
Location: If I must.

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Mr. Mack » Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:22 am UTC

I should probably chime in here. I'm from the deep south, so obviously I just know all sorts of things about guns. Before I proceed, everything SecondTalon said is correct. Now I proceed.
The two most common reasons for leaving a shooting range are because the sun is there, and it's hot, or because the sun left, and it's dark. If the sun is still there, you're not going to see much muzzle flash. If it's getting dark, then this can happen.

As you may have noticed in SecondTalon's link, recoil operated firearms produce more muzzle flash than the gas-operated ones as the recoil operated firearms still send the majority of the gas out the muzzle all at once. Thankfully, it gets more complicated. If you were to find a revolver and a recoil operated automatic with the same barrel length and the same size cartridge (like a .38 and .380) the revolver could have more muzzle flash since it can use rounds loaded with a slower burning gunpowder (although revolvers do lose gas around the cylinder, except for this one.).
This is actually best illustrated with rifles. An M1 Garand cannot fire a round loaded with slow burning powder, it'll damage the operating rod. Bbolt-action rifles don't have operating rods per se, so they're often loaded with slow burning powder that dissipates slower, so it isn't completely finished burning when it leaves the barrel.

SecondTalon wrote:I'm also not sure how much of the muzzle flash is done with blanks anymore, what with CGI costing barely nothing these days, relatively speaking.
I've wondered about that too, mostly because I have no idea how a blank firing adapter works or if Hollywood had a way to build them into the barrel.
"Bagpipes, YES!"

Check out my girlfriend's Etsy shop, Kye's Kreations!

User avatar
GCM
Posts: 528
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:28 pm UTC
Location: Metropolis City, Planet Kerwan, Solana Galaxy
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby GCM » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:21 pm UTC

First thing; ST, all you're videos are belong to us! (Disclaimer: "us" = "youtube video removal department")

Well, I did know about the minigun mechanics (it would be pretty pointless to design a gun like that). But you can't use that to explain away the double-barrel shotgun! Haha! +3 nerd points.

So, hooray for Mosin Nagants. I take it that the mechanics is that more light = less flash, generally?
All warfare is based on heavily-armed robotic commandos.
~Sun Tzu

Notes: My last avatar was "Vote Robot Nixon", so I'm gonna keep a list here. :D

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26518
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:27 pm UTC

Double-barrel shotguns are breach loading weapons. They have two barrels not to keep the barrels safe, but so you don't have to reload after every shot - and while they're still useful, they are semi-obsolete due to the pump action shotgun. The only compelling reasons I can think to keep one around is so that you don't have to move to fire the second shot - you simply pull the second trigger. Working the action of a pump shotgun might be enough to disrupt your aim enough that you miss with subsequent shots as well and the animal gets away - but it shouldn't be. I mean, for me it would because I'm not sure that I've ever fired a shotgun, but I'd also practice before attempting to hunt with one.. but now I'm digressing.

If you really must, you could pull both triggers and fire both barrels at once. Shotguns can get away with this because they aren't exactly world renown for their accuracy. Even firing slugs, they aren't that effective past handgun distance. Firing shot, however, merely requires that you have the barrel pointing in more or less the general spot of where the target is - that the barrel is offset from the sights by a half-inch or so won't make that big of a difference.

So, hooray for Mosin Nagants. I take it that the mechanics is that more light = less flash, generally?
I.. am not sure what it is you're asking here. I assume you mean daytime firing over nighttime, of which - yes, because the flash is dim enough that sunlight overpowers most of it in daytime conditions.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Gunfingers » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:33 pm UTC

Having fired both barrels of a double-barreled shotgun at the same time: don't do it! OW!

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26518
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:37 pm UTC

Yeah, that never seemed like a good idea to me, ever. (I wonder if I should dump this into movies...? as my next point..)

Hey kids! You ever watch a movie where the Good GuyTM fires a shotgun close range at a Bad GuyTM and the Bad GuyTM goes from being flat footed on the ground to flying backwards comically though a plate glass window while the Good GuyTM stands there looking heroic, possibly making out with The GirlTM?

Yeah, that wouldn't happen, what with the whole "For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction" physics thingy. Were the shotgun blast able to lift someone off their feet and throw them backwards several yards/meters, the guy firing the gun would also be lifted up off his feet and pushed backwards several yards/meters. I'm not saying the Bad GuyTM might not be knocked down backwards and might actually go back a foot or so, but the force exerted on him is not going to be much worse than the force exerted on the Good GuyTM holding the weapon. If anything, what with air resistance and all, the Bad GuyTM might feel less of a force than the Good GuyTM! You know, other than the whole "Just got shot and is now profusely bleeding" thing...

Just thought I'd clear that one up!
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jebobek » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:44 pm UTC

ST, howabout something along the lines of "Inaccurate Gun Effects in Pop Culture" and put it in General if people want to talk about alot of different kinds of stuff?

In games, I attribute the earlier need to use muzzle flash as overcompensation for the poor sound quality. You just hear a gunshot with no 3-D effects, so you can't tell the difference between your gun and someone else's. Having your gun flash, like ST said in the origional post, was helpful in telling you "Yes, you were not out of bullets and you are in the process of shooting something."

Think back to wolfenstein. Lets say your sound driver isn't even working. The best way to tell that you're indeed shooting something is from the gunshot flash animation.

Now that they know better, show recoil, shake the screen, and in some games show a tracer round (thats just being cool), they're just laying on the 'special effects'. Why remove something and risk someone complaining of the game being dull? Another good example: lens flare. Just copyin' the movies.
Image

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26518
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:55 pm UTC

That's a good point that I'm not even sure if you were trying to make - an exaggerated muzzle flash in a game is a good way of telling where the bad guy is and that you need to shoot him. Now. In the head. Shoot him in the head. The guy making the muzzle flashes at you. Shoot him in the head. Now.

Having never been fired upon in reality, I have no idea how useful a muzzle flash is for actually shooting back at someone, but you've got actual sound to use to track down the person while in a video game you have a simulation of a sound coming out of, even if you have a 3D surround Sound System, even if the speakers are optimally placed.. still is just a simulation of a sound. It won't have all the nuances that a sound picks up having been bounced off several buildings. You won't get the effect of the sound arriving to your right ear a few microseconds after it hits your left ear - surround sound usually just relies on volume tricks to shift the noise around. Having a muzzle flash is a great way of saying "Toss a grenade here, please!"

Or, in the case of the Half-Life Snipers, the exaggerated laser sight (which wouldn't make a visible laser beam) lets you know where the sniper is looking - so you know where to not be.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Axman
Posts: 2124
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:51 pm UTC
Location: Denver, Colorado

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Axman » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:35 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:If you really must, you could pull both triggers and fire both barrels at once.


None that I've seen, they all require that the first trigger be pulled to engage the second. I'm not saying they don't exist, though. They usually have one trigger in front of the other, too, otherwise it really pisses off the antiquarian marksmen lefty audience.

SecondTalon wrote:Shotguns can get away with this because they aren't exactly world renown for their accuracy. Even firing slugs, they aren't that effective past handgun distance. Firing shot, however, merely requires that you have the barrel pointing in more or less the general spot of where the target is - that the barrel is offset from the sights by a half-inch or so won't make that big of a difference.


Just, to clarify, here: Shotguns are effective beyond handgun range (if only because they're easier to aim; a handgun's dangerous range is still something like 300m, but it's damn hard to hit something that far away) which is why you hunt with them and not handguns. Buckshot doesn't spread much more than a couple of feet at fifty yards, and doesn't see a lot of deceleration for easily double that, so you do actually need to aim. And a slug will knock down the wall of a stone house, if, say, you wanted to do a headcount inside and you had a fear of doorbells. All this from down the block.

(A friend of mine is a vet, Army engineer, and he can romanticize the Hell out of shotgunning a dude through a car in Baghdad. Although he did piss on his reenlistment papers.)

But I did, once, actually test this theory, back when I used to, er, not role play, but something way, way cooler, and secret. But knowing the practical physics of shotguns was really important for the homebrew... ah, sexy stuff with girls.

-In any case- we found that for a standard shotgun, unless you were firing vermin shot, that the spread was pretty uniform, and that anything under 15 yards (IIRC) didn't see any spread at all. We assumed that under that range, the difference between shot and a slug was effectively nil, not that we had any slugs. I don't remember if they were retardo expensive or illegal, but we didn't have 'em.

At about 20 yards, there was some spread, and more if you were firing a short-barreled shotgun. A regular shotgun spread about six inches, and a short shotgun about nine or ten. This wasn't sawed-off or anything, just one was for deer huntin' and the other for "home protectin".

Finally, at thirty yards we saw spreads at or over a foot. We didn't have more shooting range than that, and we also underestimated how much plywood this was going to take. But the point was made, and that's that birdshot and smaller are for not aiming, but buckshot stayed very well-grouped.

SecondTalon wrote:Yeah, that wouldn't happen, what with the whole "For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction" physics thingy. Were the shotgun blast able to lift someone off their feet and throw them backwards several yards/meters, the guy firing the gun would also be lifted up off his feet and pushed backwards several yards/meters.


And really, this is picking nits, because I hate seeing this shit in "realistic" movies too, but a shotgun can launch you right on your ass. Which I've seen, twice. And I've seen a revolver's kick knock someone down, too. Now, by launch I do mean shove, not like jet-pack through a door or anything. It's like slipping on soap (or bile, if you needed something more violent and less buttsecksy) and falling through a door, which let's face it, was flimsy enough to break.

Not mine, though, mine aren't made of balsa wood and polystyrene.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jebobek » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:02 pm UTC

Code: Select all

Second Talon's stuff on Muzzle Flash
Good point, and again with origional Wolfenstein 3D, the 1st-level enemies would aim handguns at you and shoot. The graphics were so bad it looked like the guys were taking pictures of you. The Muzzle Flash animation did make a good "bullseye."

It's more recent too.. I remember the Police Trainer arcade game with this. The "Judgement" test where you shot the portraits of green criminals and not the civilian ones? The animation was them pointing a gun at you, and a super-obvious red/orange muzzle flash would spread out of their gun. I don't recall a gunshot sound coming from these targets... so the designers probably used this muzzle flash to lower the difficulty curve (this was one of the easier levels).

I think the Half-Life snipers is a good example of letting you know where the gunman is because it would be overpowered without it. (Although I do think some sort of unavoidable event where you somehow make the zone foggy, revealing sniper lasers, would be an interesting twist. Too graphic-intensive?) TF2 meets this halfway by forcing you snipers to keep their laser sight active and, in some servers, do a zoom-in to the sniper's location. Hmm another example is tribes2/Halo that shows a bullet-trail for sniper bullets. Realistically, the military would have developed a more subtle sniper rifle, but in terms of the game it would be overpowered.
Image

User avatar
Yuri2356
Posts: 729
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:00 pm UTC

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Yuri2356 » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:18 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:(Although I do think some sort of unavoidable event where you somehow make the zone foggy, revealing sniper lasers, would be an interesting twist. Too graphic-intensive?)

You do know that fog is generally used to reduce graphic load, yes?

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jebobek » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:36 pm UTC

Good point, world fog does help out with reducing draw distance. I was thinking more like some kind of smoke grenade launched away with your grav gun. When you're looking down at all the grenades being set off it might get bad. When you jump down into the smoked alleyway and all of a sudden it turns into the world fog through map-loading trickery, it'll perform better. Then the lasers would make sense.

On another side note with gun effects, it would be cool to see a laser unseen until it passes through a dense column of smoke, then unseen on the other side until it hits a will. Also I'd like to see a bullet slice through the column and cause an effect on its exit point. In a video game, that is. Has this been done already?
Image

User avatar
ArchangelShrike
Rodan's Title
Posts: 1533
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:39 am UTC
Location: Waikiki

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby ArchangelShrike » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:46 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:On another side note with gun effects, it would be cool to see a laser unseen until it passes through a dense column of smoke, then unseen on the other side until it hits a will.


A la Good Will Hunting? It would be a interesting effect to have, especially with large columns of smoke/dust for the laser to be seen through, sweeping the area to pose a kind of timing puzzle, but maybe once per game please.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jebobek » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:51 pm UTC

ArchangelShrike wrote:
Jebobek wrote:On another side note with gun effects, it would be cool to see a laser unseen until it passes through a dense column of smoke, then unseen on the other side until it hits a will.

A la Good Will Hunting? It would be a interesting effect to have, especially with large columns of smoke/dust for the laser to be seen through, sweeping the area to pose a kind of timing puzzle, but maybe once per game please.
I am in agreement, hidden lasers visible only by smoke are only good to an extent. (Metal Gear Solid = TOO MUCH).

I bring it up in the first place because I am a laser tag fan. I've been in a bulding with dense fog and buttons that you push to release extra smoke. All lasers were visible. Then I was in a building with just a buncha blacklights and people shooting at each other. Its a much better atmosphere when it is hard to see and there are laser beams whizzing about.
Image

User avatar
ArchangelShrike
Rodan's Title
Posts: 1533
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:39 am UTC
Location: Waikiki

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby ArchangelShrike » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:59 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:
ArchangelShrike wrote:
Jebobek wrote:On another side note with gun effects, it would be cool to see a laser unseen until it passes through a dense column of smoke, then unseen on the other side until it hits a *Will*.

A la Good Will Hunting? It would be a interesting effect to have, especially with large columns of smoke/dust for the laser to be seen through, sweeping the area to pose a kind of timing puzzle, but maybe once per game please.
I am in agreement, hidden lasers visible only by smoke are only good to an extent. (Metal Gear Solid = TOO MUCH).

I bring it up in the first place because I am a laser tag fan. I've been in a bulding with dense fog and buttons that you push to release extra smoke. All lasers were visible. Then I was in a building with just a buncha blacklights and people shooting at each other. Its a much better atmosphere when it is hard to see and there are laser beams whizzing about.


I'm... I'm not sure if you see what I did there. But yes, it would be much fun, although probably suited to a semi-realistic-futuristic-scifiistic game.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jebobek » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:16 pm UTC

Ugh, sorry. I was no longer talking about Half-life2 and was reminiscing about past experiences :?
Image

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26518
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:30 pm UTC

Axman wrote:Education
Thanks for the clarifications there, as I've not really done testing beyond casual observation in regards to the spread. I didn't realize shot took that long to spread out.. was that a full choke shotgun?
As far as the double-barrel ones go, the few I've seen and held (though I never fired them) appeared to allow for the pulling of both triggers at once via presumably one's index finger on the first trigger and middle finger on the second, so I always assumed that would be possible, but stupid, to do.

I was also meaning effective range as in "An average shooter capable of making a shot in a reasonably short period of time with an average gun of the model" which is more of a lack of the proper terminology on my part than anything, as I know any gun can kill at a fairly large distance, but their accuracy is based on a number of factors, barrel length and .. whatever the groove in the barrel that twists the shot that shotguns lack is called... being two of them, of which Handguns lack one, Shotguns the other.. but I probably should have looked up the ranges first. My bad.

SecondTalon wrote:Were the shotgun blast able to lift someone off their feet and throw them backwards several yards/meters, the guy firing the gun would also be lifted up off his feet and pushed backwards several yards/meters.
And really, this is picking nits, because I hate seeing this shit in "realistic" movies too, but a shotgun can launch you right on your ass. Which I've seen, twice. And I've seen a revolver's kick knock someone down, too. Now, by launch I do mean shove, not like jet-pack through a door or anything. It's like slipping on soap (or bile, if you needed something more violent and less buttsecksy) and falling through a door, which let's face it, was flimsy enough to break.
Yeah, that's kinda the point I was making - that it's going to hit you with about the same strength as the kick of the gun, which for the sake of argument we'll say is similar to being punched or shoved. If you're expecting it and bracing for it (like the shooter) then you can spread it out over your body via your stance. If it's unexpected, it'll knock you down. Not throw you twenty feet through a wall and out a window, just down. Unless you're expecting it and bracing for it, but then you're just bleeding profusely from either one large slug-induced hole or many small perforations via shot.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
GCM
Posts: 528
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:28 pm UTC
Location: Metropolis City, Planet Kerwan, Solana Galaxy
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby GCM » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:54 am UTC

Haven't read through all the posts yet (will do sometime later), but

SecondTalon wrote:.what with the whole "For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction" physics thingy....


Ahh! Wrong! That is only semi-accurate: you have to describe the effect as only between two bodies! Bad SecondTalon!
All warfare is based on heavily-armed robotic commandos.
~Sun Tzu

Notes: My last avatar was "Vote Robot Nixon", so I'm gonna keep a list here. :D

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26518
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:34 am UTC

Much like a shotgun, or a fully automatic weapon blazing away, I'm only semi-accurate.

... my wife really hates that.

OH!
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
clintonius
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 9:13 pm UTC
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby clintonius » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:03 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote: .. whatever the groove in the barrel that twists the shot that shotguns lack is called...
(rifling, btw)
kira wrote:*piles up some limbs and blood and a couple hearts for good measure*
GUYS. I MADE A HUMAN.
*...pokes at it with a stick*

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:03 am UTC

You guys have the right idea going in the whole shotgun recoil effect thing being exagerated in movies, but you're a little off. You've got to remember, that you're firing only a few ounces of shot out of the end of the barrel, plus the weight of the gasses from the burning propellant at around 1800 feet per second. You take the total mass of the shot and the powder and multiply that by the 1800 fps and it'll give you the recoil impulse for the weapon. You then take that number and divide it by the weight of your given weapon. Lets say that we're firing two ounces of shot and propellant at a blistering 2000 fps. We'll end up with the number 4000. If my weapon weighs 6 pounds, which is 96 ounces, we take 4000 and divide it by 96, which gives us 41.66 FPS. So, your rounds are going out with equivalent energy to the weapon recoiling, correct, but that weapon is moving far slower due to its weight, and you can absorb more of the recoil through proper hold on the weapon and relaxing as you pull the trigger to "roll with the recoil". I've seen our high brass buckshots lift a man off the ground over here in Iraq. Its nothing nearly as spectacular as flying through plate glass window, but at close range, it will definitely move you.

As for muzzle flash, once again, you guys are correct. The way movies and games depict it is horribly, horribly inaccurate. The most you get from most guns, even at night, is a TINY little flash. The only weapon I've ever seen that truly scared the dookie out of me with its muzzle flash (and the deafening report) was the Micro Galil my bodyguards carried in Colombia. The 5.56 Nato round was NEVER meant to be fired out of an 8 inch barrel. There's a whole mess of unburnt powder flashing out of the muzzle of that little bugger. It ended up having a fireball about a foot wide at the muzzle and was the loudest firearm I've ever had the dubious pleasure of being deafened by. In bright sunlight though, you couldn't see even that monster flash. When it comes to snipers, we just pray. A lot. You hope to see the scope reflect light or something. Muzzle flash is gone so fast after the shot that you almost never see it at night unless you've got night vision on, then its a big strobe that says "Land 40mm grenade here."

As for the earlier minigun conversation, I've got a bit to add. Almost all miniguns use a common feed system for all of the barrels, but the rounds are not linked. Each of them is fed into a small runner where it is scooped up and chambered by each barrel as it passes by the feed pawls. The purpose behind the weapon is that the barrels won't heat up nearly as fast, meaning you can have higher counts of rounds down range, and that a misfire won't leave your weapon down, it just gets dumped along with the brass as it is pulled out. Miniguns aren't gas operated or recoil operated, they have an electric motor that spins the barrel system. They sound like ripping paper at 200 dB's. It is a mighty sight to see one taking down a mortar. It looks like a hairy laser going up into the sky right before the mortar pops in the air, if it even pops. Then you have to think that the tracer mix for our weapons is almost always 1 tracer for every 4 normal ones. Each tracer you see fly out in videos of firefights is only one with four more that are flying too.

The grooves in the barrel are rifling, comprised of lands which are the high parts, and grooves which are the low parts. The twist of the barrel is defined as right or left hand twist, which is self explanatory and a number like 1 in 7. This means that there is one full rotation of the rifling for every 7 inches of barrel. Different twists work better or worse for different bullet weights and shapes. I'm not an expert on internal ballistics, so I can't really tell you WHY the twist makes so much difference in accuracy, but it does.

Yes I love guns, if you need gun info, I am the man.

Cheers
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
Surgery
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:22 am UTC
Location: Western New York

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Surgery » Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:25 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:When you jump down into the smoked alleyway and all of a sudden it turns into the world fog through map-loading trickery, it'll perform better. Then the lasers would make sense.

Visible lasers never make sense. I sincerely doubt any snipers in any half-way decent military use a sighting system that produces visible lasers or any kind of dot on the target. I would imagine a long distance sniper would actually use a good-old scope with cross-hairs (and probably other markings for windage and drop too) and for closer range probably something like the ACOG. Even at close range I believe the army uses an Aimpoint reflex sight. The point being that none of these sighting systems produce a visible laser beam or a dot on the target visible to anyone but the shooter. That's one of the things about the red dot sight that pisses me off in CoD4, when you turn the night vision you can see a beam extending from it. Yea, um, red dot sights don't do that. The reticle is super-imposed over the image seen in the lens, visible only to the shooter.

Muzzle flash.
I think the only time the amount of muzzle flash normally seen in games would be acceptable is if it is something like a WWII game, and the level takes place at night or dawn or dusk. I've seen quite an impressive burst come from the end of an M44 fired in the twilight hours, hell, even around noon fired under a shade. Although that does gel with what someone else said about slower burning powder, the M44 is a good-ol'-fashioned bolt-action.

Jack Saladin
X is kiss
Posts: 4445
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:22 am UTC
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jack Saladin » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:29 am UTC

That's one of the things about the red dot sight that pisses me off in CoD4, when you turn the night vision you can see a beam extending from it. Yea, um, red dot sights don't do that.

Errr, perhaps that's because it's not a red dot sight, but in fact an infrared laser sight, which would act exactly like that? I've never played the game, but that's what it sounds like.

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:41 am UTC

In the level you guys are talking about in CoD4, the marines all have PAQ2's or 4's. You are correct that they are infrared lasers, visible with nightvision on.

Woo, I helped again. I think.
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
Surgery
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:22 am UTC
Location: Western New York

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Surgery » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:42 am UTC

Perhaps, but in multiplayer class creation i believe it says red dot sight.

edit: yup, the description in a game is a "precision reflex sight". which as far as i am aware a reflex sight does not produce any kind of beam, visible in any spectrum. also, do infrared laser sights look anything like the third item down on this page? because that's what you have in the game. unless there is also some other sight on the gun they just don't bother to mention or show.

also, TodayIsTomorrow, which level are you talking about? And how do you know what gun the marines are using? just recognition?

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:11 pm UTC

I think the level is called Warpig or some such thing. You start out on a roadway and get ambushed, and then have to clear out a building that's half blown away. That's where you put on your night vision and see all the lasers shining in from your guys. The weapons they're using are M16A4's with PAQ 2 laser modules.

The reflex sites and red dot sites don't emit any kind of beam from them. All they are is a lighted reticle reflected off a piece of glass so you can see the dot, but the one on the recieving end of the barrel can't see it.

Cheers
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jebobek » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:10 pm UTC

TodayIsTomorrow, what do you think of reload times in alot of these games coming out? I'll go back to HL2 for this one as a basis. Is the hand gun, shotgun, and SMG reload times reasonable for a skilled gunman? (Yes, I know Freeman should be a scientist and not a skilled gunman, but lets just run with this.)
Image

User avatar
Surgery
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:22 am UTC
Location: Western New York

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Surgery » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:14 pm UTC

Going back to the red dot thing in CoD4 for a minute (although I am interested in hearing about reload times from someone who by the sound of it may have had to do it quickly under pressure) it turns out I'm an idiot. I fired up some CoD4 multiplayer and it turns out you don't see any beam when you put the NV on with the reflex sight. I guess in some levels they have infrared laser sights and the reflex. I never noticed another attachment on the gun so I assumed it was supposed to be coming from the reflex sight, and I guess I never put the NV on in multiplayer.

Now, recoil times

User avatar
Ati
Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:34 pm UTC
Location: I'll give you a hint: it's dry, and slightly radioactive.
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Ati » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:34 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:TodayIsTomorrow, what do you think of reload times in alot of these games coming out? I'll go back to HL2 for this one as a basis. Is the hand gun, shotgun, and SMG reload times reasonable for a skilled gunman? (Yes, I know Freeman should be a scientist and not a skilled gunman, but lets just run with this.)



The .357 magnum is definitely too fast. He just shoves a handful of bullets in, spins the barrel, and he's done in two or three seconds. Even assuming that Mr. Freeman has been spending all of his free time at the firing range and/or working out during his time in college and at Black Mesa, that's still pushing it.

Also, has anyone noticed that as of the most recent game, Freeman's been awake for something like four days straight without sleeping, eating, drinking, or using the toilet?
I can kill you with my brain.

Image

User avatar
Mr. Mack
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:26 am UTC
Location: If I must.

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Mr. Mack » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:43 pm UTC

Ati wrote:The .357 magnum is definitely too fast.
I thought he was using a speedloader, in which case he might be able to go faster.

EDIT: Found some videos. This one isn't especially good quality. This one's better (0.23 seconds), apparently he's using a revolver that's loaded with moon clips instead a speed loader. But on review of HL2, I think Gordon might be using moon clips as well. . . on a rimmed cartridge.

Anywho, the guy in the linked videos is clearly abnormally fast, but I still think Gordon could go faster with practice and such.
Last edited by Mr. Mack on Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:04 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
"Bagpipes, YES!"

Check out my girlfriend's Etsy shop, Kye's Kreations!

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26518
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:56 pm UTC

Half Life 2 Magnum Reload

Well, not really, but Gordon reloads at the end. The cases eject as six individual objects. Gordon inserts the rest of them as if he had some kind of speed loading mechanism, but there isn't one rendered.

Assuming it was some kinda small ring-type thing that slid in to the cylinder along with the bullets and the gun was built for it, the empty cases would eject as a single entity, not six separate ones.

So, yeah, the way he is shown to reload is too fast.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Mr. Mack
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:26 am UTC
Location: If I must.

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Mr. Mack » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:14 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Half Life 2 Magnum Reload

Well, not really, but Gordon reloads at the end. The cases eject as six individual objects. Gordon inserts the rest of them as if he had some kind of speed loading mechanism, but there isn't one rendered.

Assuming it was some kinda small ring-type thing that slid in to the cylinder along with the bullets and the gun was built for it, the empty cases would eject as a single entity, not six separate ones.

So, yeah, the way he is shown to reload is too fast.
(emphasis added)
Facepalm!
I don't know how I missed that. Well, yes I do, I'm absent minded and play too many FPSs and I get them all confused even after review.
But, yeah, you're right. The reload animation doesn't make much sense. It's kind of depressing to realize that Valve isn't perfect. Although they're still doing a lot better than other companies. I think I'll keep quiet until the topic moves on to firearms I know more (anything) about.
"Bagpipes, YES!"

Check out my girlfriend's Etsy shop, Kye's Kreations!

User avatar
Surgery
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:22 am UTC
Location: Western New York

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Surgery » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:34 pm UTC

Something else that I've wondered about. In some games (notably F.E.A.R.) when you have a fully automatic weapon if hold down the fire button for more than around a half-second you end up looking at the sky "because of the recoil". Never having fired an fully automatic weapon I don't really know, but this seems a little extreme to me. Wouldn't a trained soldier be able to hand the recoil better than that (I guess they'd also be trained not to hold the trigger for so long in most circumstances, but that's more of a player error). Also, it seems that that may be reasonable for an automatic pistol, but an automatic rifle would just push back into your shoulder more if it was being held properly, wouldn't it?

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26518
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:16 am UTC

In watching this, though it's not an automatic weapon, I'm theorizing that it's possibly because your spine is acting like a hinge and the gun is forcing it backwards and as a result, the gun barrel goes up.

This one shows a guy leaning in to the gun, and the barrel isn't moving around too much.

Some guy firing two from the hip just gets jiggled around a lot... but again, he's leaning in to it as he fires.


So... idaknow.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Surgery
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:22 am UTC
Location: Western New York

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Surgery » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:36 pm UTC

From those videos it looks like I'm correct. Even the .50 cal in the first video looked like it more pushed him back, didn't really notice the spine acting like a hinge much. And even so, the arms are on hinges too, and I think if your spine hinges back it would be more natural to keep your arms pointed in the same general direction, as opposed to acting like they are stuck in that position and go up as your spine goes back, it would take less effort to do so also.

And if you were walking forward while firing the guns, well you're already leaning forward from walking anyways so ...

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26518
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:52 pm UTC

Eh, there's a difference between a normal forward walk and the SWAT-style forward hunch. Granted, your FPS avatar *should* be doing that.

As far as the first video goes.. that was one shot per push. I'm figuring that if he had a weapon that fired at a 3-5 shot per second rate with that force, it might knock him over if he wasn't anticipating it - that is, if he was new to it.

I guess what I'm saying is...

Your trained Anti-terrorist infiltrating spy super operative - should keep it relatively steady.
Gordon Freeman - should be knocked on his ass a couple of times before he gets the hang of it, and even then it will probably start to point up if he's not paying attention.... that said, up =/= straight up. Merely a few inches up, which is more than enough to make it miss a human-sized target mere feet away.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.


Return to “Gaming”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests