Nitpicky design failure (Merge'd Game Mechanics)

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Xutar
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Xutar » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:48 pm UTC

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby BlackSails » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:41 pm UTC

The planets in Mass Effect.

Not only is EVERY plant composed entirely of mountain ranges (which are a huge pain in the ass), but every planet is exactly the same. They all have some mineral pockets, a anomaly (sometimes an ambush, sometimes a artifact), a crashed thing to salvage, and a building full of enemies. Oh, and if you run across a flat circular area, a Maw Thresher will pop up.

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Whispering » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:24 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:The planets in Mass Effect.

Not only is EVERY plant composed entirely of mountain ranges (which are a huge pain in the ass), but every planet is exactly the same. They all have some mineral pockets, a anomaly (sometimes an ambush, sometimes a artifact), a crashed thing to salvage, and a building full of enemies. Oh, and if you run across a flat circular area, a Maw Thresher will pop up.


And not to mention driving that six wheeled buggy thing is the most frustrating thing ever.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Dropzone » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:48 am UTC

During the stealth sections of Beyond Good & Evil, I keep finding myself crouching behind a crate (or something) for several minutes while I observe the enemies' movements and plan how I'm going to get past them. This wouldn't cause a problem if it weren't for the fact that, to crouch, you have to hold the crouch button rather than it being a toggle. Eventually I decide to make a move, then find that I can't because my hand's got stiff from holding the same button for so long. It's a particularly glaring problem because the buttons for "run" and "photo" do toggle if you want them to, but for some reason, they didn't see fit to extend that functionality to the crouch button.

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby aion7 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:42 pm UTC

Dropzone wrote:During the stealth sections of Beyond Good & Evil, I keep finding myself crouching behind a crate (or something) for several minutes while I observe the enemies' movements and plan how I'm going to get past them. This wouldn't cause a problem if it weren't for the fact that, to crouch, you have to hold the crouch button rather than it being a toggle. Eventually I decide to make a move, then find that I can't because my hand's got stiff from holding the same button for so long. It's a particularly glaring problem because the buttons for "run" and "photo" do toggle if you want them to, but for some reason, they didn't see fit to extend that functionality to the crouch button.

The stealth sections in general were bad in BG&E. In fact, actually stopped playing the game because of them.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Indon » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:25 pm UTC

The AI in Civilization 2 didn't need water sources to irrigate. I hate fake difficulty in games like that.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby InstinctSage » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:22 am UTC

Speaking of computer hax, I hated the way that, no matter what starting conditions you set for yourself in Red Alert 2, the computer always started with the max cash and units.
But then I grew to loathe skirmish modes in almost all RTS games when the great tank rushing debate ended in rush tactics becoming the norm.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Cryopyre » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:39 am UTC

wst wrote:Hopefully tactile game-clothing will help the 'red sight' thing. Because it'll feel like a real bullet hitting you in the crotch, when someone shoots you there.

So if someone takes a machine gun to your crotch, it'll be pretty darn orgasmic, because it can't actually hit you with the force of a bullet...


ummm... ERP?
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby wst » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:05 am UTC

Cryopyre wrote:
wst wrote:So if someone takes a machine gun to your crotch, it'll be pretty darn orgasmic, because it can't actually hit you with the force of a bullet...
ummm... ERP?
Hundreds of bullets hitting you = loads of tactile buzzing. Think Rez, the game with the trance vibrator thing.
FPSes will be so much popular :P
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Zuffox » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:40 pm UTC

Poochy wrote:
Zuffox wrote:I won't be making any games for said platforms if I am to preserve my artistic vision. :|
I can think of an alternative solution: Make achievements for stuff like "Find the title screen". In the likely event that you can jump in the game, you can also have an achievement for "Find a way to defy gravity" that is earned the first time the player jumps. :¡This cheese is burning me!:

Which brings me to my complaint: Achievements or rewards for "Do X N times". If you're skilled enough to pull it off once or twice, I see no point in proving you can do the same task another 42 times.

That'd be a way to implement the achievements, but you'd still be bothered by unlock messages. :/

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:09 am UTC

So just make it so you have the option of turning off Achievement Notifications?
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby InstinctSage » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:20 am UTC

It's built into the X-Box OS, so unless that's already an option, I don't think developers can simply flag them to not notify.
The whole achievement thing is something Microsoft takes pretty seriously as far as I'm aware. There are a lot of rules and restrictions about it, mostly to prevent the kinds of things you're all discussing (i.e. skirting around them/making them pointless).

I agree they're only as good as they are implemented, and "Do y action x amount of times" can be frustrating, but they can be implemented in ways that make you explore and play the game in ways you normally wouldn't bother/think of, and that's not always a bad thing.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Amnesiasoft » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 am UTC

No. Microsoft does not take achievements seriously. The only limitations I know of in achievements are you're not allowed to have more than 50 achievements/1000 points in a game. (12/200 for the arcade). And an additional 10/250 for DLC (I'm not sure on the arcade limits, I think it's ?/50). Not that these are enforced all the time. See: Orange Box, Halo 3.

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby InstinctSage » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:49 am UTC

Well, I suppose the achievements can only be as imaginative as the developers. That was saddening to watch.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:39 pm UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:No. Microsoft does not take achievements seriously. The only limitations I know of in achievements are you're not allowed to have more than 50 achievements/1000 points in a game. (12/200 for the arcade). And an additional 10/250 for DLC (I'm not sure on the arcade limits, I think it's ?/50). Not that these are enforced all the time. See: Orange Box, Halo 3.

The developers need special permission to go over the limits. I doubt a smaller release would be given permission.

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Jebobek » Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:46 pm UTC

I'd like to know what developer of Final Fantasy Tactics A2 decided to design a level where you do not get a turn before a guest party member dies, immediately failing the mission. This is some serious bullshit.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby TheOtherDOOMGuy » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:03 pm UTC

Completely changing an integral part of the game for consoles.

Far Cry.
Instincts and Evolution, both great, except wen you compare to the original.
Especially since your are fighting Dr Krueger again, and the badguy is Crowe again. Doesn't he die?

Also, was unhappy at the dumbing down of the AI in Instincts.

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:47 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:I'd like to know what developer of Final Fantasy Tactics A2 decided to design a level where you do not get a turn before a guest party member dies, immediately failing the mission. This is some serious bullshit.
Nice. Apparently you didn't read the GameFAQs thing and learn that if you don't level your characters a certain way you're doomed to failure.

Because it's a Final Fantasy game.

And they hate you.

Personally.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Shadic » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:51 pm UTC

Speaking of both Tactics Advance games... The law system. Everything about it. It fucking sucks. End of story.

And in terms of other games.. Assassin's Creed with the guards. I can grab somebody and throw them, but if I walk too quickly on a horse, they want to kill me? Huh?

Also, Oblivion's psychic guards. Killing somebody in their house? I'm find if it only takes one slice. But they could be in a brick house in the basement, and in the time it takes from cut one to two, they've apparently alarmed all the guards in town.

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Phen » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:32 pm UTC

Shadic wrote:Speaking of both Tactics Advance games... The law system. Everything about it. It fucking sucks. End of story.

And in terms of other games.. Assassin's Creed with the guards. I can grab somebody and throw them, but if I walk too quickly on a horse, they want to kill me? Huh?

Also, Oblivion's psychic guards. Killing somebody in their house? I'm find if it only takes one slice. But they could be in a brick house in the basement, and in the time it takes from cut one to two, they've apparently alarmed all the guards in town.


Spoiler:
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But yeah, I agree so, so muchly. Little things like that ruin much of the fun of Oblivion, I think. Also, why can't I find the "Gentlemen"-style image of this... :/
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Marbas » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:03 pm UTC

and the elite players who play these games all day and practice every technique suck unless random matchmaking protects you from their jackassery.


Wait what? People who are good at the games are jackasses?
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Dropzone » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:23 am UTC

Shadic wrote:Also, Oblivion's psychic guards. Killing somebody in their house? I'm find if it only takes one slice. But they could be in a brick house in the basement, and in the time it takes from cut one to two, they've apparently alarmed all the guards in town.

That reminds me of something that happened when I was playing Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow. I was in a stairwell, and an enemy surprised me by entering the stairwell through a door and starting to walk down the stairs towards me. I was hidden in shadow, but that didn't help much because he was about to walk straight into me. I didn't have time to aim for a headshot, so I fired twice rapidly at his chest. It killed him, but in the fraction of a second between the two shots hitting him, he somehow managed to transmit an alert message over his radio - causing me to fail the mission :x

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby headprogrammingczar » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:37 am UTC

I liked the way the first one handled those things, with alarms on the wall that the bots ran to. Actually, I liked the way Goldeneye handled it better, where if you feel absolutely insane, you can hit the alarm yourself and fight unlimited hordes of Russians while trying to complete the mission.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby TheOtherDOOMGuy » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:35 pm UTC

TheOtherDOOMGuy wrote:Completely changing an integral part of the game for consoles.

Far Cry.
Instincts and Evolution, both great, except wen you compare to the original.
Especially since your are fighting Dr Krueger again, and the badguy is Crowe again. Doesn't he die?

Also, was unhappy at the dumbing down of the AI in Instincts.

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby ajbleck » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:29 pm UTC

the thing i the the most is being arbitrarily stopped by a door that in real life i could probably kick down.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby TaintedDeity » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:33 pm UTC

ajbleck wrote:the thing i the the most is being arbitrarily stopped by a door that in real life i could probably kick down.
Especially when carrying a damn rocket launcher, it can blow down walls, why not that rubbishy old door!
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby ajbleck » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:48 pm UTC

also not being able to break glass in some games. i have a rocket launcher and a railgun but they can't break glass?
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Aikanaro » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:37 am UTC

Sounds like someone needs to go play some Red Faction :D

Oh, and in some older versions of Thief 2, ANY door can be blown open with a couple of fire arrows.....
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby JayDee » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:10 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Oh, and in some older versions of Thief 2, ANY door can be blown open with a couple of fire arrows.....
Only doors that can be opened. There are plenty of doors that are simply walls with a door texture.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Mo6eB » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:44 pm UTC

The "Lives" system in New Super Mario Bros. Passing through level 1-1 gets you 5 lives and you can do it as many times as you wish with no penalty, making the number of lives you have essentially infinite. And it doesn't seems to be just oversight - there were levels where I lost uwpard of 20 lives before passing, even if only because I'm obsessed with sticking my nose to check for hidden coins in any place a nose can be stuck, including lethal ones.

If the game designers decided the player needs infinite lives, why implement a "lives" system at all? Utterly pointless.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Internetmeme » Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:26 pm UTC

Really nitpicky for me: Halo.

Awesome game, but no permanent damage.

Seriously? I can (literally) get shot in the chest point blank from an assault rifle hundreds of time, as long as my shield regenerates, and then I get shot in the arm from a pistol, and I die instantly because my shield is down? What the HELL is all that armor doing there then? Just put some Kevlar down, he already has super-strength so he can handle full-body Kevlar!
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby BlackSails » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:08 pm UTC

Internetmeme wrote:Really nitpicky for me: Halo.

Awesome game, but no permanent damage.

Seriously? I can (literally) get shot in the chest point blank from an assault rifle hundreds of time, as long as my shield regenerates, and then I get shot in the arm from a pistol, and I die instantly because my shield is down? What the HELL is all that armor doing there then? Just put some Kevlar down, he already has super-strength so he can handle full-body Kevlar!


Actually, you have HP. Its just not displayed in halo 2 and 3.

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby rheakith » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:37 pm UTC

In KotOR 1, whenever you opened something and took everything out, it would still say there were things in it (well, it just didn't say it was empty) which sucked quite a bit when having to backtrack through building complexes and the like, since I would always think I missed something. Not a big deal, since most of them didn't hold anything absolutely necessary, but it was a bit annoying.

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Texas_Ben » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:21 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:Actually, you have HP. Its just not displayed in halo 2 and 3.


It regenerated though, hence his beef with no permanent damage.

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby Kag » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:49 am UTC

Don't know why he has a problem with it, though, since it made the game better.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby LuNatic » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:48 am UTC

Left 4 Dead.

The waiting to spawn mode for infected in versus. You spend 30 seconds watching the survivors gauging their strategy, and finding an ideal ambush spot- to be teleported 10 seconds behind them as they run past the ambush point unhindered. IMO spawn mode should be entered straight away, so an ambush can be simply set up and you can spawn in the right place as soon as the timer hits zero.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby helixsnake » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:19 pm UTC

The motherfucking AI in Smash Bros Brawl with their godly reflexes totally piss me off.

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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby TheOtherDOOMGuy » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:49 pm UTC

Kag wrote:Don't know why he has a problem with it, though, since it made the game better.

No, not really.
I mean, compare halo 1 to the others.
Halo 1 wins. Halo 1 DID have permanent damage.
Back in the days when all FPSes had permanent damage, and this whole Regenerating-crap didn't exist.
We were superior players, and now it's all just child's play, with no regard to damage, because your health will just reappear magically in ten seconds' time.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:53 pm UTC

Eh, it made the game different. Rather than a marathon, it's a game of multiple sprints. Instead of carefully navigating through a level, saving health boxes for later, running back to grab them if something took off too much health and taking your time... but only killing, say, 50 enemies in the level... you're instead given a series of connected firefights, each with 20+ enemies in them, in bursts. Between the connected firefights you respawn health, so that you start each one ready to go. And each level you kill 200+ enemies.

Long Story versus Exciting Vignettes. Just two different ways of doing it, really. And honestly, the Halo method favors the Epic War method of storytelling. Your supercharged hero in the movies/books shrugs off damage and keeps plowing away at the enemy, maybe taking a second or two to catch his or her breath. It's perfectly valid.
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Re: Nitpicky design failures in awesome games

Postby TheOtherDOOMGuy » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:40 pm UTC

Still doesnt take away from the fact, that old-school gamers tend to complain about these new games, and how easy they are.
Even me.
But, in all complete honesty, they are much easier, because of the regenerating health.
You can rush into a firefight, and if you are seriously hurt, then you just run into a corner, wait a few seconds and get back in there, good as new.

Whereas old-school, you would have to make your way in carefully, planning your movements, and trying to avoid as much damage as possible, because you never knew when the end of the level, and the big bad boss was, and it could have been in the next room, for all you knew.

Im not complaining here, actually, just comparing.
I enjoy many new games, even more so than a lot of older games.
Although I still tend to play old-school style, conserving my ammo by using nothing but headshots, and whatnot.

EDIT: Prime example, Half Life 2.
I started off using just the Gravgun and the pistol, even when I got the machine gun.
When I got the Crossbow, used it religiously, then the magnum. I didnt use any other weapons in the game, excluding the rocket launcher for the hovercraft-helicopter-JCBheavymachine things.
Had to play through it again, when I realised how much ammo I actually had left over.
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