What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

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What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby xkcijik » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:28 am UTC

I just wondering how many of you play 2.5D MMORPG? My favor one is Eudemons Online(http://eo.91.com/) by TQ Digital Entertainment. The game is pretty entertaining for the free charge. you can raise some eudemons to guard you and destroy your enemies, which is pretty cool.
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Also I like fast leveling and killing practically everything in sight just by clicking the right mouse key repetitively. That is very fun, considering you feel god-like. Overall, this game is great if you don't have any money, and don’t have a high standard of pc(I am poor I know T_T) then that is not bad choice, so what is your favor one?
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Indon » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:47 am UTC

...Would online Diablo II qualify?
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby xkcijik » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:06 am UTC

yes, it counts :D
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:34 pm UTC

Diablo 2 isn't massive, though.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SJ Zero » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:36 pm UTC

Diablo II is an Action-RPG.

The difference between an MMORPG and an Action-RPG is that the former is designed to suck obsessive compulsives into paying a monthly fee for years leading to the tragic decline of their existence as they meaninglessly toil in Sisyphean task after Sisyphean task, while the latter is a fun game.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:24 pm UTC

No, the difference is that one is massive (hundreds or thousands of players sharing a persistent world) and one is not (small number of players sharing an instanced world). The gameplay and levelling systems aren't all that different between Diablo 2 and WoW.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SJ Zero » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:46 pm UTC

So what part of the World of Warcraft universe requires levelling to L10 to take the same amount of time as it takes to finish Diablo II?

The part where they want to slow down the gameplay to make you pay more. There's no legitimate reason for it. It doesn't make the gameplay more fun. It basically takes levelling, the most boring part of any given RPG, and makes it the most important thing in the world. Plot is virtually non-existent, combat is non-rewarding as bosses simply respawn a few minutes after being defeated, and so you end up with people going "The game only starts to be fun at L60/70/80/whatever the cap is raised to today" as if grinding for months isn't a huge price to pay.

I once played a game of Transport Tycoon where the game was slowed to 1% of normal speed. It, like this, was still a fun game, but pacing was completely screwed up for no good reason.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:13 pm UTC

... You can finish Diablo II in an hour?

I say this because.. I'm not the fastest WoW player in the world. Not by a long shot. But.. yeah, I can get a character to 20 in the course of a few hours, 10 usually coming in the first hour alone.

From what I understand, your powergaming types get characters to the cap in a week and a half or so. The fastest I've heard was from 1 to 70 in less than a day. The average player probably takes a few months to get there, sure, but it's attainable.

As far as MMOs go... WoW got a lot of things *right*. Until I hit mid 40s, I always felt like I was progressing. The only time it felt like I was grinding was..when I was purposefully grinding. And discovered that it's best to actually play the game (ie Do Quests and the like) over grinding.

There's also the matter of paying attention. In that, if you pay attention, shit that you do at level 15 is actually relevant to the huge bossface you fight in the end-game Raid.

But then, I rolled Horde. Maybe Alliance-side is nothing but a bunch of quests with no relation to each other.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:18 pm UTC

SJ Zero wrote:So what part of the World of Warcraft universe requires levelling to L10 to take the same amount of time as it takes to finish Diablo II?

The part where they want to slow down the gameplay to make you pay more. There's no legitimate reason for it. It doesn't make the gameplay more fun. It basically takes levelling, the most boring part of any given RPG, and makes it the most important thing in the world. Plot is virtually non-existent, combat is non-rewarding as bosses simply respawn a few minutes after being defeated, and so you end up with people going "The game only starts to be fun at L60/70/80/whatever the cap is raised to today" as if grinding for months isn't a huge price to pay.

I once played a game of Transport Tycoon where the game was slowed to 1% of normal speed. It, like this, was still a fun game, but pacing was completely screwed up for no good reason.

You level a character that has a skill tree that you build and grow as you progress through levels, and playing the game largely comes down clicking on enemies until they die while using the skills you've learned. Just because one *may* progress slower than the other (and yeah, level 10-20 took little time back when I played WoW, and has reportedly been sped up quite a bit recently) doesn't mean the gameplay isn't fundementally very similar (which isn't a surprise since they're both Blizzard games).

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SJ Zero » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:32 pm UTC

Erm.... I'm complaining primarily about pacing(Paired with the non-dynamic nature of a world where the same content needs to be fed to someone at L1 and L80), and your post is basically saying that pacing is my problem.

Pacing is a critical piece of game design, so yes -- it's sort of important to get right, and MMORPGs get it wrong by necessity of needing to collect a monthly fee.

I often have the problem on xkcd that people don't bother reading my posts from a page back or so before responding, and end up reiterating a point I've already made. This is a new one, basically rephrasing my point in an argumentative tone.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Gelsamel » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:36 pm UTC

Diablo 2 Normal -> Hell is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY longer than 1-80 WoW.

And, you know, level 80 is actually attainable vs level 99 in Diablo 2.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SJ Zero » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:40 pm UTC

I've never heard anyone say that Diablo II only starts being fun when you reach L99.

Besides, isn't it a bit arbitrary, comparing a regular play of WoW to your strange power-run of D2?

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Gelsamel » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:52 pm UTC

It's even more impossible on a standard single play of D2.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SJ Zero » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:58 pm UTC

Reaching max level in most RPGs is just a silly end-goal. I believe I first beat Chronotrigger at L30. Some people went on to level until L99, but by the time you reached it, you were so overpowered you were just doing it for its own sake, rather than to 'unlock' the really fun parts of the game.

By contrast, it has been said many times by many people that WoW doesn't become truly fun until you reach the level cap. That's a whole lot of boredom.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Gelsamel » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:02 pm UTC

SJ Zero wrote:Reaching max level in most RPGs is just a silly end-goal..


In almost every single MMORPG ever it's the primary goal. And WoW's 1-80 is very lenient grind wise in comparison to others.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:17 pm UTC

SJ Zero wrote:Reaching max level in most RPGs is just a silly end-goal. I believe I first beat Chronotrigger at L30. Some people went on to level until L99, but by the time you reached it, you were so overpowered you were just doing it for its own sake, rather than to 'unlock' the really fun parts of the game.

By contrast, it has been said many times by many people that WoW doesn't become truly fun until you reach the level cap. That's a whole lot of boredom.
That said, the people who say that tend to also like hanging out with 40 people they don't know and some guy named Puff telling them what to do.

Or it's 50 DKP Minus.

So.. yeah, until the mid-40s, I had fun playing WoW. The reason it stopped being fun for me was I started shrugging off the solo quests in favor of the group ones. My mistake there. Of course, learning that pretty much the "end game" content pretty much consists of nothing but group adventure, so... I kinda lost interest. Apparently it's lovely if you're in a good guild. I was not.

But I wouldn't say I was bored while I was playing. I had fun, until there at the end, which is why I quit. And, the way I look at it, I was saving money that way too - $11 a month is a lot cheaper than $40 a month on a new game. Which is neither here nor there.

If it's not your cup of tea, that's fine. I'm just not sure where you're getting an issue with pacing. Every even level you get a skill upgrade (or more), every 10th level you get a brand new skill, and it eases you in to the idea of it that though at level 1 you, the Mage, were pretty much identical to the Priest and the Warlock, by 10 you're different enough to require a gearshift in your thinking and by 30 are completely alien to one another. And, like I said, in a few hours of even causal play, you're at a point in the game where your character is, unless you're powergaming or very aware of what to take, different from any other character who shares the same class.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SJ Zero » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:49 pm UTC

I think part of the problem for me is, in good RPGs, level isn't a goal unto itself. If I'm levelling, I'm levelling to get past a boss, or I'm levelling so I can save the princess. In WoW, it feels like I'm levelling to be levelling, so the fact that it takes forever is a problem. I'm investing in the idea of investing, rather than investing in a certain goal(besides the arching "get to level cap").

So in WoW, they slow down levelling substantially from their other games, they make progression virtually non-existent (You're just some guy. If you die or commit suicide, you're just one less random adventurer doing insubstantial quests. You don't change the world, you don't have a purpose), they make the world extremely static. The whole game feels like a sysphean task, and one arbitrarily made longer by much slower levelling.

Contrast with Guild Wars, which is less an MMORPG and more a regular multiplayer Action-RPG with lots of lobbys. Levelling is much quicker, progression occurs constantly in a highly visible manner, and the player is made to feel like an integral part of the world and the story. Guild wars creates the illusion of a dynamic world through the quests and with fairly constant travelling so the world changes with your progress in the story, and everyone in your slice of the world knows what you're up to.

By the way, if you're interested in cheap gaming, check out gametap. It's like 80 bucks a year, and they've got hundreds of games, some of which are cult classics. I never thought I'd be able to legitimately play Planescape Torment.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:01 pm UTC

SJ Zero wrote:Erm.... I'm complaining primarily about pacing(Paired with the non-dynamic nature of a world where the same content needs to be fed to someone at L1 and L80), and your post is basically saying that pacing is my problem.

Pacing is a critical piece of game design, so yes -- it's sort of important to get right, and MMORPGs get it wrong by necessity of needing to collect a monthly fee.

I often have the problem on xkcd that people don't bother reading my posts from a page back or so before responding, and end up reiterating a point I've already made. This is a new one, basically rephrasing my point in an argumentative tone.

Ooooooooookay so I said they have similar gameplay which you argued against by mentioning pacing, which isn't really a part of that. I'm not really sure what you were arguing?

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Gelsamel » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:03 pm UTC

I found GW to be way way slower to play than WoW, especially since the levels are much more spread out because there are fewer of them. Apart from crating a max level char (which you then have to grind to unlock skills, as far as I remember).
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SJ Zero » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:30 pm UTC

If I was arguing against diablo II and WoW having similar gameplay in many respects, I'd be lying about my own opinion. In fact, after playing an evening of WoW and being thoroughly bored, I played some Diablo, and my first thought was "Hey, this is sort of like WoW sped up like 100 times and a progressive gameworld!"

When I played GW, I was able to progress with almost no grinding at all. I'd just play a few sidequests and the main quest and I was levelling consistently. I don't recall what level I was at, but I was getting up there when I graduated college and had to move on to bigger and better things.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby telcontar42 » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:38 pm UTC

SJ Zero wrote:I think part of the problem for me is, in good RPGs, level isn't a goal unto itself. If I'm leveling, I'm leveling to get past a boss, or I'm leveling so I can save the princess. In WoW, it feels like I'm leveling to be leveling, so the fact that it takes forever is a problem. I'm investing in the idea of investing, rather than investing in a certain goal(besides the arching "get to level cap").

In what RPGs is leveling not a goal? Leveling as a key component in almost all RPGs. You are rewarded for your successes with money, equipment, and experience. Accumulating experience is one of the main goals. It may not be how you "win", but its almost always something to work for. This is true of Diablo, Final Fantasy, Baulder's Gate, etc.There are some games that try to get around this, oblivion being the one that first comes to mind with the scaling monster difficulty, but that's not standard and its definitely not required for a game to be good.

The fact that level progression is slow means that there is a lot of content in the game. This is a good thing. People don't pay a monthly subscription because they are tricked into mindlessly toiling away at a boring game. They pay because it is a fun game that you can keep playing for months and not run out of content. If you could reach max level in a few days, it would be easier to run out of content, particularly if you didn't like high level play.

Also, if you level slowly, reaching a new level is more of an achievement. If you are gaining a level an hour, it makes leveling insignificant. In wow, its more satisfying to reach a new level because its more difficult to accomplish.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SJ Zero » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:53 pm UTC

I'm playing Planescape Torment right now. You can fight, but I'm far more interested in learning more about Nameless One and the people in his party. The challenges in battle are a means to that end. When I fought through the dungeon where the collectors lived, it was because the leader of the collectors would give me a key to my past so I could understand a little bit more about my immortality. When I entered my crypt, there wasn't very good loot, but I thought it was incredibly cool because I could see how various incarnations lived, and read what they'd left written on the walls.

When I level up, it's a bonus, and I really like how I gain a point on one of my stats, but levelling isn't a goal, it's a means to the end of being able to explore the world. The world is the draw. Most of the RPGs you mentioned are the same. You don't level in Diablo II to level, you level to make it to the next part of the game so you can see what happens next.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Kag » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:41 pm UTC

SJ Zero wrote:You don't level in Diablo II to level, you level to be able to kill the boss on a higher difficulty so you can farm for gear
Seriously.

But it falls apart anyway because you don't level just to level in WoW either.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SJ Zero » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:50 pm UTC

Actually, you pretty much do.

The game I played was an exercise in nihilism. You were a nobody, doing nothing jobs for no reason. There were no recurring characters or stories, and nothing keeping the missions together to form anything like a coherent narrative. You were essentially doing missions to do missions, and levelling to level.

Compare it to Planescape Torment, where everything fits together in such a beautiful way.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:09 pm UTC

WoW actually does has an overarching narrative and you level your character to kill stronger enemies to get better gear to kill stronger enemies. Just like Diablo. It's just that the narrative isn't really presented in any way that you have to actually pay attention to it. Just like Diablo.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SJ Zero » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:12 pm UTC

Diablo did actually have a progression. Diablo II moreso.

I played through Diablo II pretty much non-stop when it came out because I wanted to see what was coming next(The fact that I didn't have to sit in one spot waiting for F-ing respawn helped).

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Kag » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:10 pm UTC

SJ Zero wrote:I played through Diablo II pretty much non-stop when it came out because I wanted to see what was coming next(The fact that I didn't have to sit in one spot waiting for F-ing respawn helped).
I call shenanigans. If you really played Diablo for the story, you cannot possibly have played online for any length of time, so your experience isn't relevant to this discussion.

Diablo did actually have a progression. Diablo II moreso.

Also, please define progression, since I have no idea what the hell this sentence means.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SJ Zero » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:16 pm UTC

I played it exactly like I tried to play WoW: with my brother on the next computer.

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Kag » Fri May 01, 2009 7:01 am UTC

That...doesn't really address the issue.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Gelsamel » Fri May 01, 2009 9:31 am UTC

This is my diablo 2 experience (and it was awesome).

-Played an Assassin Solo up until Act 5
-Then Start playing online and found it much more fun

By the time I quit this is what would happen with a new character I made;

1) Get rushed to Hell at level 1
2) Start ubers game
3) Get to level 80+ in like an hour, 90+ in a few more

Yeah, good times.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Ralith The Third » Fri May 01, 2009 1:19 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:Diablo 2 isn't massive, though.

Yeah... the same way a 21 hand purebred quarterhorse stud isn't big.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 01, 2009 1:33 pm UTC

SJ Zero wrote:The game I played was an exercise in nihilism. You were a nobody, doing nothing jobs for no reason. There were no recurring characters or stories, and nothing keeping the missions together to form anything like a coherent narrative. You were essentially doing missions to do missions, and levelling to level.
There was the Scarlet Crusade, of whom I butted heads with from the high singles (level 8 or so) and was still dealing with their shit at level 56. I did plenty of stuff for the Cenarion Circle, starting at level 15 and.. again, continuing up to when I quit at 56. There were plenty of lore-heavy quests regarding keeping Undercity going and rooting out corruption in the Orc civilization. I know several bosses return later ramped up a bit due to some monkeying around by the bigger boss down the line.

You *can* ignore the reasons that they're wanting you to go and collect 10 bear asses followed by 25 donkey tails and 5 horse cocks, but if you pay attention to the wall of text they assault you with, there's a reason for the madness that actually relates to later quests down the line.

Because apparently 10 bear asses, 25 donkey tails and 5 horse cocks let you cast a spell to break through a barrier or scry a location to learn where a big bad is hiding or whatever reason they come up with to put some logic in the madness of collecting dead enemy parts. Yes, sadly, it is a bit of the "Continue goofy quest, create logical reason for goofy quest" rather than "Ignore goofy quest, make awesome quest"....(But they threw in the Test of Faith quest, and for that, I'll let it slide.) I mean, you are right, there is an interest in keeping you paying from month to month, but there's also an interest in keeping you playing from month to month. You want the progress of a character to be fast enough that until mid-high levels, a few hours of active questing will produce noticeable results, if not measured in levels gained then at least measured in "I started at 1/5th to level and now I'm at 5/6ths!"

If a person plays for several hours, actively doing and completing quests and looks at their progress bar to simply see that it's barely blipped up and they realize they have another 30 levels to go before they max out... They're likely to just walk on the game.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Eliphal » Fri May 01, 2009 4:02 pm UTC

Out of 2.5d mmo's, I liked Dungeons and Dragons Online the best. I loved the fact that movement, positioning, and such actually mattered. You could protect your spellcasters not just by holding aggro or something silly like that, but by literally blocking the path with a tank. Traps had to actually be avoided using good timing. Each and every level (although spaced out alot further), actually meant something. Granted I don't play this anymore now that I play eve, but as far as the 2.5d go, it was lots of fun.
I assume you meant D&D online, at least. If I'm wrong, please correct it. -ST

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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Kag » Fri May 01, 2009 7:58 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:If a person plays for several hours, actively doing and completing quests and looks at their progress bar to simply see that it's barely blipped up and they realize they have another 30 levels to go before they max out... They're likely to just walk on the game.
And somehow Ragnarok Online still earns money.
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Endless Mike » Sun May 03, 2009 11:40 pm UTC

Ralith The Third wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:Diablo 2 isn't massive, though.

Yeah... the same way a 21 hand purebred quarterhorse stud isn't big.

I don't actually know what this means, but D2 only lets you have 8 players sharing a world, which then goes away when the players do. This is not massive by any stretch of the imagination (the first M in MMORPG).

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Cynical Idealist
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Cynical Idealist » Mon May 04, 2009 3:36 am UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
Ralith The Third wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:Diablo 2 isn't massive, though.

Yeah... the same way a 21 hand purebred quarterhorse stud isn't big.

I don't actually know what this means, but D2 only lets you have 8 players sharing a world, which then goes away when the players do. This is not massive by any stretch of the imagination (the first M in MMORPG).

Specifically: it isn't Massively Multiplayer. D2's world may or may not be massive, but that has no bearing on whether or not it is a MMORPG.
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Endless Mike
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Endless Mike » Mon May 11, 2009 3:53 pm UTC

Cynical Idealist wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:
Ralith The Third wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:Diablo 2 isn't massive, though.

Yeah... the same way a 21 hand purebred quarterhorse stud isn't big.

I don't actually know what this means, but D2 only lets you have 8 players sharing a world, which then goes away when the players do. This is not massive by any stretch of the imagination (the first M in MMORPG).

Specifically: it isn't Massively Multiplayer. D2's world may or may not be massive, but that has no bearing on whether or not it is a MMORPG.

This is what I meant, and miswrote.

D2 is an MORG, but not an MMORPG.

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Amalith
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Re: What is your favor 2.5D MMORPG?

Postby Amalith » Mon May 11, 2009 11:15 pm UTC

Eliphal wrote:Out of 2.5d mmo's, I liked Dungeons and Dragons Online the best. I loved the fact that movement, positioning, and such actually mattered. You could protect your spellcasters not just by holding aggro or something silly like that, but by literally blocking the path with a tank. Traps had to actually be avoided using good timing. Each and every level (although spaced out alot further), actually meant something. Granted I don't play this anymore now that I play eve, but as far as the 2.5d go, it was lots of fun.
I assume you meant D&D online, at least. If I'm wrong, please correct it. -ST


D&D Online is a good MMO, but its not 2.5D, unless I am misinterpreting what that means. Granted, according to how I'm thinking of it there are very few (none in my experience, but I won't let that limit it) 2.5D MMO's

If 2.5D is meant as no direct 3D movement, rather than a set view that looks 3D, but limits you to 2D, there could be more. anything without jumping I suppose.


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