Minecraft

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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EdgarJPublius
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Re: Minecraft

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:32 am UTC

I can't reach the server "Failed to connect to the server Connection timed out: connect". Anyone else having problems?
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Re: Minecraft

Postby Steax » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:58 am UTC

Yeah, it's a known issue. We're trying to work it out, sorry!
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Re: Minecraft

Postby Steax » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:43 pm UTC

Looks like the host is at fault. I can't even login to the control panel now.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby mieulium » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:57 pm UTC

Is... the host server going rogue and gaining sentience? :O
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Feylias
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Re: Minecraft

Postby Feylias » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:13 am UTC

While the SexyTalon server's been down, I've been...

Blagtiem! (particularly self-indulgent. Also, I like Gosling's Family Reserve dark rum.)
Spoiler:
So there's this thing that may or may not have happened called 4craft; all the 4channers (I visit occasionally. Not proud. Just a dopamine addict) who feel like it join a team based on their sub-board, migrate to that clan's island, and somehow do battle. I'm not playing 4craft because, well, I'd have to be an active Steam user and that would require more privacy risk than I want to bother with.

I did start playing on their stress-test server(166.78.252.177), though, which has the spawn point on /b/ island. /b/ island was a very large desert (islands are sized in accordance to the activity of their concomitant section of 4chan) and had, of course, cobble dicks, swastikas, noob towers, and racial slurs. ...though fewer than you'd expect. Also, naturally, there were PKers and griefers/raiders and people using flyhack/xray and all that nonsense, and it would be foolish to make a living space/base anywhere easy to find or invest lots of time in making something easily destroyed.

So I decided to not gather riches or make anything easily destroyed, but to make some lasting things anyway.

I made two things.

The most trivial was this, which took a couple stacks of redstone, scaffolding, time, and one bucket of lava (pretty hard to find, actually):
Peace.png
How do you vandalize a place where swastikas and hate are considered normal? This, or a huge floating obsidian heart. Actually, I also made a smiley face.


Less trivially, I also made a mountain range.
Mountains.png
These mountains are not likely to be destroyed by a random raider or team thereof.


The method, which is trivially cheap and easy (you just need iron, wood, sand, cacti, redstone, and a bucket of water and lava each) was to make a platform at about Y 250, arranging it so a 1m diameter column of lava is falling to the earth and that every now and then the lava is blocked and replaced with water falling through the same hole. I used cacti as the timer, and just went AFK somewhere safe for several hours per mountain, then removed the machinery and platform.
Cacti.png
Cactus are random, but cheap, easy, and AFK-friendly.
Pistons.png
The default setting allows lava to fall in a 1m wide column. When powered by cactus falling on the pressure plates, the lava is stopped and water is allowed to flow through the same hole. It follows the lava to the surface and only then spreads out and makes cobble. When the cactus bit despawns the lava resumes.
Home.png
This was my first home/mountain generator. I had a nice glass floor so I could watch the mountain form beneath me, and I had gardens and trees because they're pretty. I had to rebuild after a few griefings, and once the mountain was flush with the underside I dismantled it.
Multiple.png
I made a few. It's nice to watch them work, actually; it's like watching seasons change.
Flickering.png
Something about all that lava and water and multiple tiny holes in these mountains causes graphical problems; I get flickering and my HUD randomly vanishing and reappearing. Nothing's fixed it yet. I just reset my computer occasionally.
There was a small flaw in my execution, though.
Spoiler:
the area around spawn was protected, so you can't break or place blocks. Lava and water flowed into spawn fine. Right now, anyone who logs into the server is trapped at spawn in an unbreakable cave in the cobble mountain range until someone offers them a teleport-to-me out (it's a modded server. Bleh.) I think I can use pistons and TNT, or a TNT cannon, to open that cave to the outside. Y'know, since it's my fault and all.

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Re: Minecraft

Postby raudorn » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:23 pm UTC

Feylias wrote:[...]

Okay, this? This is awesome. Not only is this method cheap and fun, it's also clever. I'm firing up minecraft to replicate and look for another RNG, that's faster than cacti and slower than a redstone one (redstone torches kinda burn out randomly, but you might end up with a periodic function anyway).

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Re: Minecraft

Postby Steax » Wed May 01, 2013 6:55 am UTC

mieulium wrote:Is... the host server going rogue and gaining sentience? :O


No, we have not been replaced by sentient machines. Don't worry.

@Gana: Okay, that is cool. I'm not sure I even fully understand how it works, but are those mountains hollow?
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Re: Minecraft

Postby raudorn » Wed May 01, 2013 8:43 am UTC

Things I noticed:

  • It can be hard to get the timing right, so the falling water doesn't turn lava still inside the "engine" to cobblestone. The whole thing only works because of minecraft's quirky physics engine. Water usually falls faster than lava, but when falling water hits falling lava, it doesn't turn it into cobblestone and it slows down to lava falling speed. It makes sense, if one considers how events are handled in most games.
  • The duration doesn't need to be random at all, I don't know why I thought that in the first place.
  • If we allow the lava to reach steady-state before the water rushes in, the shape of the mountain is entirely determined by the terrain before the process starts. It's a cellular automaton after all. :wink:
  • We can cut the duration of the lava phase down to the time it takes to reach steady-state on the ground.
  • One cactus is veeeery slow.

With the coming update it will be trivial to get a long-duration periodic signal from redstone, because there will be light sensors and sensitive pressure plates. Both can be used to get a minutes-long signal. Until then, cacti still seems like the best deal. The only alternative I can think of right now is a rather large redstone contraption:
We take two oscillators with different periods and put them behind an AND-gate. This new output is periodic as well (the smallest common multiple to be exact), although is has several pulses over its period. We then link two of these units together behind another AND-gate and get an even longer periodic signal. The goal is to combine enough units and choose the frequencies just right, so the final output is periodic in the range of minutes and has only few spikes. So far this is far more complicated than using cacti.

Edit: @Steax The mountains are not hollow, but riddled with holes and caves, depending on the starting conditions.

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Re: Minecraft

Postby Feylias » Wed May 01, 2013 5:05 pm UTC

raudorn wrote:
  • It can be hard to get the timing right, so the falling water doesn't turn lava still inside the "engine" to cobblestone. The whole thing only works because of minecraft's quirky physics engine. Water usually falls faster than lava, but when falling water hits falling lava, it doesn't turn it into cobblestone and it slows down to lava falling speed. It makes sense, if one considers how events are handled in most games.

    With the coming update it will be trivial to get a long-duration periodic signal from redstone, because there will be light sensors and sensitive pressure plates. Both can be used to get a minutes-long signal. Until then, cacti still seems like the best deal. The only alternative I can think of right now is a rather large redstone contraption:
If you have your vertical column of lava falling through the exact hole the water flows horizontally to in your platform the lava blocks the water until it's subsided enough to free the hole...at which point that weird/convenient lava falling-as-pushed-by-water thing happens.

I think a daylight sensor might actually be perfect (as a cactus/plate timer/trigger replacement) for this (lava by day, water by night? I like more time for lava) but I wanted it to be super cheap so that no raider could cause me any grief.

Another that seemed too vulnerable: I think a pair of dispensers filled with trash and some pressure plates might also be a more regular useful timer/trigger; when an item on one pressure plate despawns it causes the other dispenser to drop an item on its pressure plate, and the two dispensers go back and forth, alternating an item drop every five minutes. I haven't ever used such a thing, but I intuit it'd be easy to figure out and would probably complete the mountain before it ran out of stuff.

I've seen some downloadable maps (Sethbling included), when they want a really long timer, they put a minecart on a loop that has it fall through some spiderweb, and that has a detector rail somewhere in the middle. ..but that's super-non-trivial, and requires silk touch on shears (I think.)

...one cactus is super slow. I'm using four, usually. I made a small mountain like this in the eastern part of Mordor when I was hashing out the design (I've been pouring lava/water from the sky for a while, but only just thought to automate it) and stacked (since I wasn't at sky limit) about twelve cacti floating above each other.

But yeah, as you said it's biggest and most satisfying if the lava reaches steady-state before the next water flow comes. This usually means slow is good; I think four cacti is actually too slow at first and too fast at the end. It works on a rough level, though.

One more blag, in which I find a great use for redstone blocks:
Spoiler:
All new players on that server ended up trapped in a naturally-formed cobble tunnel that stretched from 0/90/0 to -23/90/0, and unless someone else was on to offer them a teleport they were stuck because spawn was protected for a radius of 33 meters. I decided to fix this. I collected ten gunpowder, made two TNT, and tunneled to -33/90/0 (the closest I could get.) Then I place a TNT, place a piston behind it, and use a lever to push the TNT toward where I can no longer tunnel. ...alas, I placed the lever badly, and I have a premature explosion.

Well, the wall is damaged to about X-28 and I have one TNT left. I more carefully place my piston and TNT again, use a lever to push it toward the wall, then I go gather snow and make snow blocks and use the snow to push the TNT to where I judge the midpoint of the obstruction to be. I then move the piston one space to the side and do the same thing, but this time instead of TNT I push a redstone block. ...naturally when the redstone block comes adjacent to the TNT it explodes. Bam; egress obtained.

(Actually it took a try or two to find a place where the cobble mountain was spongy enough to accept a nice long redstone-block-tipped thrust to adequate depth to reach a spot adjacent the TNT. But eventually it worked.)

I do not think I could have done this without the redstone block. Perhaps I could have pushed a bunch of wood in and then pushed netherrack under the wood and then lit the accessible wood on fire. Maybe that would have worked. This was better.

I wonder if it would be possible to make a conglomeration of sticky pistons, pistons, and redstone blocks that would travel without wire?

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Re: Minecraft

Postby blalobw » Fri May 03, 2013 3:09 pm UTC

Feylias wrote:I wonder if it would be possible to make a conglomeration of sticky pistons, pistons, and redstone blocks that would travel without wire?


I'm not certain why, but that made me think of Conway's game of Life.


Also, someone could grief your mountain range by building another mountain range on top of it. >B^)

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Re: Minecraft

Postby SecondTalon » Thu May 09, 2013 7:08 pm UTC

Sorry for the delays, server should be back up.


So... and given the history of the server and all the crap that's there - including crap I put in and haven't really played with...

Given that Spawn is both ancient, not really touched anymore and there's no strongholds, given how the Nether is formatted and just how stupidly huge the entire world even is....


Anyone down for a map reset?

Anyone down for a map reset if it also means I spend a bit of time to cut chunks out of the existing map and insert them into the new one to preserve things like Mordor and whatnot?
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Re: Minecraft

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu May 09, 2013 7:57 pm UTC

I'm not strongly opposed to a map reset. Though I haven't really invested a ton of time in any massive structures or terraforming projects like some other players have.

Would there be some way to preserve the current map, possibly as a download that could be played locally, for historical/nostalgic purposes?
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Re: Minecraft

Postby SecondTalon » Thu May 09, 2013 8:10 pm UTC

Of course.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby mieulium » Fri May 10, 2013 1:16 am UTC

I am also not opposed to the map reset
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Re: Minecraft

Postby Magnanimous » Fri May 10, 2013 1:30 am UTC

I support the reset if you'll copy my island and dump it in some random ocean.

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Re: Minecraft

Postby Steax » Fri May 10, 2013 1:41 am UTC

Is the size of the map a concern? We could also just shift the current things we have further away, and start anew near spawn.

I imagine a lot of people have interest in returning to the old defunct stuff at old spawn, though.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 10, 2013 2:04 am UTC

Steax wrote:Is the size of the map a concern? We could also just shift the current things we have further away, and start anew near spawn.

I imagine a lot of people have interest in returning to the old defunct stuff at old spawn, though.


Sorta? It's more that the entire thing is, in my opinion, unnecessarily large. I'm not saying there isn't anything between Spawn and Pandora... but I am saying that there's no reason for there to be ten thousand blocks between Spawn and Pandora. I'm saying we have people who keep pushing the boundaries Out for the sake of pushing them Out. There's .. well, check out all this Whitespace.

Why the hell is there so much whitespace there? Spawn, Pandora City, the.. uh, I forget the name of it, whatever it is that the other city on that continent, the Miner's Paradise.. all that jazz could fit in that whitespace.

On the one hand, I understand the appeal of getting out there and having your own ground as far as the eye can see.

On the other hand, your own ground as far as the eye can see is ... what, 21x21 chunks? So 336 blocks long, 168 from your current position, over 100,000 square blocks.

But maybe I'm wrong and a reset wouldn't do any good.

Yeah, I could just mash things together, but I don't know if that would help. I know sometimes people get in a rut and such when they're constantly looking at the same builds and don't know what to do, when a fresh slate gives them new ideas.

And it would be interesting to have a world with strongholds and netherquartz and so on right there where they should be.

And probably a larger End.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby Kain » Fri May 10, 2013 2:04 am UTC

I would actually be strongly in favor of a map reset. (One of the reasons I haven't been on the server in forever is that, given how far apart everything is, it felt pretty much like playing on a ssp map with more lag).
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Re: Minecraft

Postby scienceroboticspunk » Fri May 10, 2013 2:14 am UTC

I have mixed feelings about the map reset. I like the idea of how old a server we are and how much history we have, but if it makes it run faster then that is a plus. So like I said, mixed feelings
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Re: Minecraft

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 10, 2013 2:51 am UTC

This has little to nothing to do with how fast the server will run*. I say that as the server speed has more do do with how many people are on in different locations than anything else. If the server has to run a 21x21 chunk spread for 8 people, it has to work a lot harder than it having to run a 40x40 area for 20 people.

Basically, if the map is reset and the first thing everyone does is to run 500-1000 blocks away from Spawn to stake out their claim, then the only thing that happened is everyone got a blank slate (and Strongholds and such)

*Then again, I'd also wipe all the config files too, outside of the Whitelist/OP list, so with the install/removal of bukkit and such, there may be some shenanigans in there, and wiping it might straighten things out.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby scienceroboticspunk » Fri May 10, 2013 3:47 am UTC

It would be kinda cool if the file becomes available for download. I am still angry though that I can not finish the very last part of IWBTS. I am pretty sure its the last part of the last room but my internet always lags out on a certain jump.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby Steax » Fri May 10, 2013 4:17 am UTC

Well, at first we should list what stuff we need to keep. Some things like Mordor, IWBTS and other landmarks are probably a given to keep. I say we keep the city centers somewhere, but not in the center of the new map. I don't personally have anything of concern, and I'd love a clean map as well.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby Josephine » Fri May 10, 2013 7:59 am UTC

I've gotten sucked into FTB lately. I'd actually come back with a new map, I think.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby jestingrabbit » Fri May 10, 2013 8:45 am UTC

I am also pro restart, but I would like a download somewhere... if its not too huge.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby wam » Fri May 10, 2013 5:08 pm UTC

I would be alright with a restart if my house and castle (well one wall) was saved. I haven't been on in ages but keep thinking of getting back into it.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby _infina_ » Fri May 10, 2013 5:38 pm UTC

I wouldn't be opposed to a clean slate. I may even try to stop by the server more often.
Spoiler:
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Re: Minecraft

Postby freezeblade » Fri May 10, 2013 5:52 pm UTC

Reset sounds fine by me. I will miss all the quirkiness of the older areas of the map. Areas like where the algorithm changed so there are huge cut-off cliffs. However, spawn is so glitchy, like that hole to nowhere that appeared for me a while back that nearly crashed the server. All that white-space that someone was refering to was me, mapping out a land-route between spawn and pandora via minecart. The first leg of the journey, from spawn to winterfell takes 20 mins!
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Re: Minecraft

Postby cjdrum » Sat May 11, 2013 3:31 am UTC

A reset would be amazing. I also wouldn't object to a countdown to the new map...?

I never could resist a ticking clock.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby Feylias » Sat May 11, 2013 6:20 am UTC

I am utterly and utterly against reset.
Spoiler:
There are no other maps in the world with this kind of history.

This map (and playerbase) is literally and amazingly unique.

The history of this map is not just unmatched, it's unmatched by several factors of magnitude.

Please keep this map going.

I'll throw whatever it takes at it, and if necessary I'll take over myself.

I don't have the technical knowledge, but by damn I'll throw money at it.

For seriously, you can still find every-other-meter ladders on this server.
No reset.

(Minutes pass)
Spoiler:
I don't object to moving spawn, or copying the entire map and pasting it in with spawn as a different location. ...but really, there's so much mystery in the map! Stuff that nobody at all remembers, even!

I know I've left a few mysteries around that even I don't remember. I'm sure everyone else has too. That's the difference between a living and real world and a fake one that still needs life blown into it.

..I'm gonna not post anymore until I'm sober again. I've been checking every day to see if the server works again, though.

...these homemade pickles are too garlicky. Hmm.
Edit: Frabjous! It's up! All the talk of reset distracted me from noticing that. Too bad it's also about five hours past my bedtime. I feel silly.

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Re: Minecraft

Postby jestingrabbit » Sat May 11, 2013 2:36 pm UTC

I think what makes a living map is different people logging on and doing different projects. Its a very quiet server these days.

And I've gotta say, nether quartz is fantastic stuff to work with, but having to hike for a quarter of an hour to get somewhere in the map where it can be mined kinda sucks.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby blalobw » Sat May 11, 2013 7:02 pm UTC

If only there was a utility which could change the co-ordinates of every chunk in the current map by a fixed amount. Then we would have the old map offset by 5km or so and a brand new spawn somewhere near 0,0

Of course this would make the unaesthetic whitespace problem even worse.

A utility which checks all chunks for player-created structures and then fits everything back together like a puzzle could fix the whitespace issue, probably with amusing results.

Player created structures could be determined by finding chests and furnaces, excluding those which are part of villages, dungeons, and strongholds and then adding any connected lighted areas. Lighting from exploration (ie torches on natural materials far from any player-placed chest) would have to be excluded as would lighting associated with long, straight railroads.

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Re: Minecraft

Postby Magnanimous » Sat May 11, 2013 9:03 pm UTC

Could we move the land around spawn somewhere else, if the coordinates can't be changed?

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Re: Minecraft

Postby Josephine » Sun May 12, 2013 12:01 am UTC

Feylias is very convincing. Well, at one point in time most of us packed our bags and moved to Pandora. We did not change the spawn point. We could theoretically scout out an area we know would make a good new spawn point and somewhere varied we'd want to be around for a while, and do it again. But this time we would change the spawn point. It would make coordinates a little ugly, and we could shift the map over if that really bothered us, but I'd rather keep it as is. I think separating the place we actually play from the historical, most likely uniquely continuous area more completely than we did in the Pandora migration would be a good way to keep the map and get new terrain.

Oh, and I have another idea. Make it a general server goal to explore such that the entire map is continuous and convex. That would get rid of the whitespace!
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Re: Minecraft

Postby Magnanimous » Sun May 12, 2013 12:55 am UTC

Josephine wrote:Oh, and I have another idea. Make it a general server goal to explore such that the entire map is continuous and convex. That would get rid of the whitespace!

Can we just delete some parts of the map? That might make some parts easier...

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Re: Minecraft

Postby Steax » Sun May 12, 2013 2:28 am UTC

We could also just wipe the nether and shift the overworld over.

Also, for some reason my connection is still really... Strange. I first saw someone online on the server, but my client was outdated. So I close it, update, and try to login, and now it says connection refused.
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Re: Minecraft

Postby SecondTalon » Sun May 12, 2013 6:34 am UTC

I'll see what I can dig up on Map Moving utilities re: Moving Everything 10,000 blocks North.

But the primary reason for suggesting it was to see if various people who used to play and no longer really do would return if there was a completely new area, or if it would really matter much in the long term.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

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Re: Minecraft

Postby Magnanimous » Sun May 12, 2013 8:46 am UTC

I'm tied up with other games right now (and don't have that much time to play games at all). But I will most likely start playing again regardless of resetting, since I never really finished my island fortress.

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Re: Minecraft

Postby raudorn » Sun May 12, 2013 10:02 am UTC

I'm only rarely and briefly on the server, so my voice should not count for much. However I am put off by the region around spawn. Everythings seems so randomly put together and while that surely has some history, that history is not accessible to anyone new on the server. It's just a collection of constructions. Going away from spawn results in untouched landscapes that are nice for building, but then I might as well play singleplayer.
For a time I was active on a very busy server that changed maps every few months or so. And boy was that refreshing! Building a new spawn was always a great community event with free building material. The spawn was always gorgeous and drew plenty of people on the server. To compensate for blocking the spawn area, there were four hubs with big roads leading towards them (or railway access). I'm not saying you must copy that, but having a nice, inviting spawn that points people to the other creations on the map is always a bonus. When you are new on a server, you want something to guide you, otherwise you're lost and likely to switch servers.

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Re: Minecraft

Postby Alder » Sun May 12, 2013 1:35 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Anyone down for a map reset if it also means I spend a bit of time to cut chunks out of the existing map and insert them into the new one to preserve things like Mordor and whatnot?

I feel a bit cheeky popping in here and asking this given that I play on a whole other server and just read this thread out of interest (and occasional confusion)...

...however... How would you do something like that? The server I'm on could probably do with a map reset for the sake of nether quartz and, in 1.6, horses only generating in new terrain - I seem to be the main person that goes exploring and I've pushed way the map way out so that it now takes 30 or 40 minutes just to reach new terrain. But we're a fairly small server where folk don't have a great deal of time to play, so have projects spanning months. I know I'd hate to start again from scratch, and I was wondering if there was a way to transfer a bunch of the bigger projects and buildings across to a new map that wouldn't be too tricky for our admin to do.

And that *sounds* like what you're going for. So...how d'you do that, please?
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Re: Minecraft

Postby SecondTalon » Sun May 12, 2013 3:11 pm UTC

Mcedit or something similar. Cut it out here, paste it in there. Same way I imported Vvardenfel and Britannia.

To make it easy on myself, due to underground things I cannot see, I'd have you guys mark out the square with colored wool.

But a map wipe is something it's do in a month or more, not next week. For the record.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.


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