Guild Wars 2

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Lucrece
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Lucrece » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:59 pm UTC

I think he just doesn't understand the game.

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Boss solos. Spider Queen is piss easy.

The game has plenty of tells, and it is easy to tell the fields in battle. Null field has these purple broken crystals on the edge, while chaos storm doesn't have them and has lightning animations instead (which null field doesn't have).

The biggest indicator that he hasn't played the game in depth is claiming guardians build for burning damage. Condition damage in general is garbage outside PvP formats. The best Guardian DPS builds involve a greatsword and direct damage traits. The burning constitutes a very small portion of the damage of a berserker geared guardian. Berserker builds by far outpeform every other damage build due to the exponential scaling of crit damage+power at 50%+ crit chances.

I can't believe people are complaining about Jumping Puzzles -- they are a fun break and unique in a MMO. I'm sorry that you missed the Halloween and Wintersday jumping challenges. And Super Adventure box that was just released is a total triumph in my opinion. Their willingness to introduce non-traditional formats to the genre is one of their strong points.

I'm one of their biggest detractors if you asked those I play with. I hate how they put the game economy on a pedestal and make everything prestigious be a gold farm so people either have to play the trading post or buy gems since only a few people get a lucky precursor drop that's about 700-800 gold gifted to them. That's the equivalent of a random WoW drop giving you about 500,000 gold. But jumping puzzles and the feel of combat is not one of them.

In fact, I got a MoP trial, and I do admit WOW's PvE via raiding has far more depth, so I went to try it. I only lasted about 20 minutes and went "Where the fuck is my dodge and why do I have to stand still to cast -- it feels so stagnant." and quit. WoW's dated quest format also didn't do it for me. I can't be bothered with a leveling system including a lot of fetch quests as opposed to the quests in GW2's personal storyline, the lack of environmental objects in WoW, the lack of options in WoW to solve problems without violence. WoW is all about raids for me, but outside that I'd rather play GW2.

And to be honest? I don't want to spend hours fucking coming up with macros and UI downloads to tackle the latest raid content, in addition to also having to bother with reforging and excessive theorycrafting literature. I don't mind playing efficiently, but the effort needed to be efficient in WoW now has stretched my limits and the game feels more like work than play to me.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby JudeMorrigan » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:05 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:WoW's dated quest format also didn't do it for me.

You know, there're a lot of things to like about GW2, but I've never understood the plaudits it gets for it's quest format. The heart system isn't bad, but I don't see how it's a noteable improvement over a more traditional questing format. It seems like pretty much the exact same thing, only with the option to not talk to the questgiver if you so choose and to only work on one quest at a time.

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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:09 pm UTC

One thing I love about the heart system is that hearts are typically filled by doing a variety of tasks. It's not just 'kill 5 critters, bring their wasagigits back to me' or 'go click on 5 of these random objects', it's 'click on this random object, kill any of these five critters, use the hypermagicdoodad on these objects, and chat with these guys'. It feels more organic.

And most importantly, it's just one type of activity to do in an area; xp is awarded for gathering, exploring, crafting. Dailies are centered around diversity of activities, so to maximize xp gain (if that's your thing), you do a bit of everything.

It's just a nice dash of variety to the Skinner box that is most MMOs.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby JudeMorrigan » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:21 pm UTC

Oh, sure. I love how the game actually caters explorers. That's fantastic. I just find the quest system (which the heart system is, as far as I'm concerned) to be unremarkable. Again, not bad, just not noteworthy in comparison with other games'.

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Xenomortis
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Xenomortis » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:34 pm UTC

It's a better presentation and more streamlined.
But you're right, when you get down to it, and when you're doing it for the fourth time, it's not functionally different from talking to a quest giver.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:16 pm UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:Oh, sure. I love how the game actually caters explorers. That's fantastic. I just find the quest system (which the heart system is, as far as I'm concerned) to be unremarkable. Again, not bad, just not noteworthy in comparison with other games'.

I applaud them for at least thinking about ways to make the quest system a bit different. And I extra applaud them for having the main storyline quests typically much different, at least insofar as including more epic battles/events.

I mean, yes, it's still a Skinner Box, but at least it's got bells and whistles in addition to levers.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Zcorp » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:20 pm UTC

I just don't understand how a project this big fails at so much.

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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:30 pm UTC

Hmm what now?
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby yurell » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:47 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:But, as much as I like the Charr, I don't think I can forgive ANet for the extensive retconning they put them through; it would be hard to swallow, but it's minor compared to everything else they added.
The price you pay for making a highly antagonistic, if admirable in some ways, race a playable one.


I didn't play GW1, and from what I've read most of the changes happened in-Universe. What were the retcons?
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Xenomortis » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:58 am UTC

yurell wrote:
Xenomortis wrote:But, as much as I like the Charr, I don't think I can forgive ANet for the extensive retconning they put them through; it would be hard to swallow, but it's minor compared to everything else they added.
The price you pay for making a highly antagonistic, if admirable in some ways, race a playable one.


I didn't play GW1, and from what I've read most of the changes happened in-Universe. What were the retcons?


So I exaggerated a little. ;)

Charr ate humans. Humans were frequently referred to as 'Meat'.

No mention of Legions; a Shaman Caste is mentioned in the Eye of the North expansion where you aid Pyre Fierceshot (Charr rebel who facilitated the overthrowing of the Shamans / Flame Legion (in GW2), his father also facilitated the destruction of Ascalon).
A lot of their history was expanded as more of GW2 was revealed; these histories forced in the Legions and Khan-Uhr, but fine.
I lose track of the age of lore now; I don't know if it was originally given that the Charr were around before humans, that they rejected the gods and that the gods then brought humans into the world as their "favoured" race and these humans then drove the Charr from the southern end of Ascalon.

The Charr came close to conquering all of Tyria; their invasion led to the destruction of Orr and they nearly destroyed Kryta. Their hatred of humans wasn't only at Ascalonians, but extended to all humans. Of course, it seems they no longer care about Kryta.
They don't even really care about Ebonhawke any more. The very existence of that place is laughable; there is no possible way that anything like that could withstand a 200+ year siege from the Charr.

Their technology progression and changes in cultural attitudes I can accept; more has changed in real cultures in less time, and 250 years ago, we were at the start of the Industrial Revolution. It may be a little hard to swallow, given the previous crudeness of everything Charr made, but ok.

But above all, the Charr never ran on all fours. Never.
I don't know what designer thought that was a good idea, but he needs to take a good hard look at Charr anatomy.

In the games. Whilst I don't recommend it as a read, Destiny's Edge maintains Charr antagonism much better. When Rytlock Brimstone first arrives in Lion's Arch and sees Charr and Humans together, he questions "Why aren't they killing each other"? He has to reassert himself within his legion when he breaks his friendship with Logan; namely through killing those who mention his past friendship. Ghosts of Ascalon does better than the game too.

There is a matter of perspective difference; I played the first Guild Wars before anything else; the story starts with the player as a recruited into the Ascalon military to fight the Charr, the tutorial takes place immediately before the Searing. The story moves on from there, but that's where it starts. The later games, Factions and Nightfall, have stories that nobody gives to fucks about (many actually hate what Nightfall brought to the story), then Eye of the North brings us back to Tyria where we face the Charr again (and meet two [i]completely new races that are totally incongruous to the rest of the world, yeah...).
For me the Charr were very well defined; in their character and their place in the world. The Charr have developed since; they have technology, they've moved on as a society. But they've been robbed of their edge that people remember them for.

I still think they're the strongest race in the game; I particularly liked the first chapter of the Charr storyline when you pick Blood Legion.


That didn't come out how I originally intended.
Oh well.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Kain » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:00 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:But above all, the Charr never ran on all fours. Never.
I don't know what designer thought that was a good idea, but he needs to take a good hard look at Charr anatomy.


I agree with this wholeheartedly, but from an entirely different perspective: if you need all the player characters to run at the same rate, you are going to have to artificially slow the movement of larger characters (norn and charr) and speed up the movement of smaller characters (asura). When you add in the mental understanding that something bounding on all fours should be going faster than something walking or running on two legs, playing a charr feels like you are playing in super-slow motion. That some designer passed up an obvious solution to the problem of movement speed limitations is honestly my biggest gripe with the game.

As to the rest of the charr thing, do you like the idea of a whole species being pigeonholed into being evil?
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:14 pm UTC

I haven't followed the lore very intently, but my impression is that a lot changed in 250 years, and part of the GW1 story was the coming together of... Destiny's Blade? Edge? Sword? to unite the clans, so to speak, and fight the... dragons?

I mean, last I checked, America and Germany are pretty chill with one another. Part of what makes for good story telling is remembering that people can overcome the past.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Xenomortis » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:19 pm UTC

Kain wrote:As to the rest of the charr thing, do you like the idea of a whole species being pigeonholed into being evil?

In Prophecies (the original GW), they were pure antagonists. They were given more character and depth in Eye of the North, to the point I would not say they were straight up evil. They were certainly cruel and brutal to the point of barbarism, but I don't regard them the same way as I do the Krait (comparing GW1's Charr to GW2's Krait), which have been pigeonholed (deliberately) into being evil.

As for the running thing:
A Charr simply could not run quickly on all-fours, they have arms and hands; structures not built for running. The two legged run is, whilst slow due to the gameplay reasons*, far more believable.
It's made even more absurd by the fact that their legs are much better suited for running.
(There have been examples throughout history of creatures running on two legs, walking on four; I don't know any instances of the reverse.)

*My memory says that the Charr in GW1 run faster than the player, but I cannot find a source verifying that now...


Izawwlgood wrote:I haven't followed the lore very intently, but my impression is that a lot changed in 250 years, and part of the GW1 story was the coming together of... Destiny's Blade? Edge? Sword? to unite the clans, so to speak, and fight the... dragons?

I mean, last I checked, America and Germany are pretty chill with one another. Part of what makes for good story telling is remembering that people can overcome the past.

Charr and Humans have been at war throughout the entirety of human history on Tyria; right up to just before the start of the game.
GW1 was set 250 years ago; the Elder Dragons didn't feature, there was no Destiny's Edge (none of the members were even born), no Asura, Norn nor Sylvari. Asura and Norn were shoved in in the Eye of the North expansion. GW1 was about humans fighting Charr and other humans; half of Prophecies was spent fighting the White Mantle (the ruling faction in Kryta) and their Mursaat 'gods'.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:13 pm UTC

Oh, well, then, see how far we've come?
Shrug.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Negrebskoh » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:57 pm UTC

Just dropping in to say that I bought the game a week ago, and I'm in love with it.

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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:54 pm UTC

Took a rather long break from my mesmer, but returned, got him to 65 and tried a new build. Went with scepter sword and greatsword, and crit. It's a very awesome change. Shatter all the things!
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Negrebskoh » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:24 pm UTC

Any of you play engineer? I've tried a number of professions by now, but none of them are as fun to play as an engineer IMO. Bomb ALL the things! :mrgreen:

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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Xenomortis » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:55 pm UTC

My Engy is only level 20 or so; I really cannot be bothered getting to level 80 a sixth time.
I'm not sure what to make of them though; most of the engies I've played with have been pretty bad (but that's not necessarily a fair reflection on the profession).
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Negrebskoh » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:31 am UTC

Xenomortis wrote:I'm not sure what to make of them though; most of the engies I've played with have been pretty bad (but that's not necessarily a fair reflection on the profession).

I've heard them compared to elementalists in the sense that they're extremely versatile. Except, unlike elementalists, they have to choose one of those things they want to be really good at with traits and skills, instead of being able to adapt to many situations in combat like elementalists can. I agree that they certainly seem harder to play well than most professions. But to be perfectly honest, I don't care so much that my engineer may be somewhat weaker than my other characters - I simply like to play them a lot, which is ultimately what a game is all about.

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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:11 pm UTC

Engi's got an enormous buff in the last patch. Like, enormous.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Toeofdoom » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:13 am UTC

Uh, turret engis did get a good buff, though high% damage increases don't always help much when the damage is really low to begin with. Buggy in the sense that taking one particular turret trait switches back to the unbuffed version. The kit builds on the other hand varied between losing a bunch of their damage or all their condition removal and most of the notes were minor bug fixes. Very few engis are happy about the last patch.

I quite like engi, at about level 60 now and static discharge builds are quite good at burst damage, though compared to mesmers you have to work harder for it because the abilities are all over the place. I suspect thieves and warriors find burst even easier than mesmer.

As for versatility, I find you can do a whole lot of stuff without remapping traits especially if you go for gear that works with both conditions and power for example:

Bomb kit or elixir gun + turrets allows you to stack area might, stealth or retaliation healing 4-6 times. (quite handy in wvw)
You can switch a single trait out for permanent swiftness and another extends that to permanent vigor.
Depending on range/need for conditions/defense you can switch to rifle, pistol/pistol or pistol/shield and utilities to match.
Loads of options for stuns, knockdowns and pulls

On the other hand if you get into combat with the wrong stuff, you can't change a thing and depending what you were trying may discover you have no break stuns or condition removal.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Lucrece » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:20 am UTC

Turrets are crap besides using them for CC in spvp. And a HGH condi build has existed for a while that outshines any turret build, and is easily the king of roamer (1v1, 1v2) specs properly played. You can also use the toolkit instead of grenades in wvw for the confusion stacks build.

Either way, the engineer is a very potent pvp class and has been for a good while. For PvE everything is overshadowed by warriors and thieves due to their absurd damage, with the occasional mesmer and guardian thrown in. The engineer is not too bad, though. He can stack vulnerability and easily has the highest ranged sustained aoe damage in the game on hgh grenades build.

Stay away from ranger and necro and you'll be fine. Those are the current trainwreck classes, especially ranger. Ranger can rival engi in roaming and 1v1's with his BM bunker build, but he's got little utility for team fights and his main mechanic, the pet, is shit like most pets and minions and GW2.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:27 am UTC

What's wrong with Necros, aside from the borked condition damage builds?
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Toeofdoom » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:37 am UTC

In PvP necros seem fine to me - not easy to play by any means, but there are lots of viable builds. Some minions are quite worthwhile, mainly flesh wurm, bone minions and flesh golem as their active abilities are useful and they're less affected by AI problems. Conditions are actually powerful there

In dungeons on the other hand it's pretty hard to feel like you're actually doing anything useful. Going full conditions and having the bleed count regularly drop below 12 on bosses isn't a great look, or getting stuck at the bleed cap if other people put on decent conditions... unfortunately it's a bit harder to switch to all new gear in PvE so I can't really say much about other builds there. Support is limited by the long cooldowns on wells but there are options.

HGH conditions does seem pretty good for engi, I just don't enjoy might stacking builds much and it sounds like it only really pays off for really good players. :)
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Xenomortis » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:53 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:What's wrong with Necros, aside from the borked condition damage builds?


They're slow.
Their damage output isn't all that high and most of what they do is done better by others.
In PvE you're very durable, in PvP that high-health and Death Shroud just means you take time to kill, but you are going to die if people want it enough.

Necros were good when people weren't sure what they were doing; it was obvious what a Necro did and, for the most part, it was pretty straightforward on how to do it.
Although Mark spamming is still good in WvW, as are Well of Power and Corruption; although the Mesmer gets those two in one skill.
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Kain » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:59 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Those are the current trainwreck classes, especially ranger. Ranger can rival engi in roaming and 1v1's with his BM bunker build, but he's got little utility for team fights and his main mechanic, the pet, is shit like most pets and minions and GW2.


I dunno about that. I'll give you that rangers are useless in spvp (with the sole exception of the buggy pet revives underwater), but at least in dungeons, a ranger can be useful: a ranger with aoe traps and a polar bear can keep a boss chilled for anywhere from 24s to constantly, depending on whether your allies manage to make use of the chill combo field or not. That 40% incoming damage reduction has turned around quite a few boss battles (also, search and rescue still works on hard-downed players, which is incredibly useful in the Giganticus fight in Arah).
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Re: Guild Wars 2

Postby Lucrece » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:30 am UTC

Support/tank builds are useless in pve outside use by the inexperienced. You can run berserker glass cannon gear in every single pve encounter just fine, and it will be more efficient.

In Guild Wars 2, you're not meant to tank damage -- dodges and vigor are your biggest pve mitigation, closely followed by reflection from guardians. Protection is there as a buffer for when people do mess up, but it's not necessary either.

Rangers do absolutely horrendous damage compared to a warrior or thief or conjure hammer specced elementalist, and their utility doesn't hold a candle to guardian or mesmer utility.

In pvp, BM bunker rangers are very viable -- theyre good roamers and debunker well -- they are capable of winning every 1v1. However, other classes outshine them (and this is a problem with the ranger and necro in general -- other classes just specialize better). The condition engineer has more and stronger conditions than the necromancer, the mesmer brings boon removal in addition to his massive aoe spike and portal, and nothing bunkers like a guardian.

The necromancer is a problematic class because condition specs are weak in pve, and a berserker build on a necromancer is strong for tournament pvp with team support, but it's again overshadowed by thief and warrior frontloaded damage in pve. You're a good team player, you have dangerous fields in spvp that can turn a fight quick. The problem is that you have no mobility, and you facetank damage since you have no invulnerability/teleports/built in evades other than death shroud, which is a damage sponge. This makes it very effective for people to turret damage into you until you go down. The necro has good initial damage absorption, but very bad self healing and combat disengagement, which is what makes his recovery options bad (a reason he's not a bunker compared to ele despite having higher HP than ele). As a necro, you will need people babysitting you a lot. It's not a self sufficient class.

The ranger is more troubled in pve because the pet dies all the damn time, it doesn't scale with gear stats (players can get 110% crit damage in berserker gear, pets only 30% with a trait). Pets outside drakes do not cleave, unlike most melee. The pet constitutes about 40% of a ranger's damage, yet it scales poorly, has bad survivability in dungeons and larger scale pvp like wvw, and the ai is just not up to par at the moment. The ranger is only good in spvp at the moment as either trapper or BM bunker build.
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